Good reads in various magazines

[SevenStar]

KF/QG has an article on Tai Tzu - not great, but I'm sure Abel and RD would be into it.

Classical Fighting Arts has a nice article on shuai chiao.

Black Belt has an atricle on catch wrestling. I also read the david carridine interview... he's had more training than I thought. I still wouldn't learn his mantis system though :p

Journal of asian martial arts has a great article on a week at a thailand MT camp.

you know... It may have been IKF that had the tai tzu article... I read one after the other and can't remember which had it.

Does any one know which publication/month had the steve gartin article? I was looking for that but couldn't find it.

[GeneChing]

It ran in both our issue and IKF. That's what we call a simultaneous submission, and it's highly frowned upon in the martial community (or any small research community). It was a rather unfortunate circumstance and we've received a full apology from the authors, Kash & Prout. FWIW, IKF presented the article differently, so while the introduction is the same, the second half of the piece is completely different. Also we added the Chinese characters and changed the romanization to pinyin where possible. IKF's pics are bigger and they use color. As it stands, it's a fascinating comparison between the styles of our two magazines. I'll be interested to hear your opinions on them in that light.

[Kristoffer]

I like color pics better than black and white

[SifuAbel]

..........No comment.

[SevenStar]

I'll go re-read them and see which style I like better.

[Oso]

It was a rather unfortunate circumstance and we've received a full apology from the authors, Kash & Prout.

holy crap...I better just stick with SifuAbel's response...

[SevenStar]

what's with this prout guy? I've never heard of him.

[norther practitioner]

I was wondering the same thing.. I'm guessing he's not going to be class president.

[Oso]

you can do a search for him here. the only time I've gone off about someone individually was about Prout. and only cuz I know him personally and know what sort of martial artist he is.

or check him out here

http://www.dokungfu.com/tkaa/index_page0002.htm

you know, I've just been contemplating the fact that there really isn't any need for any of us to bash anyone else for what they do martially...but I guess there is always something or someone that will send you over...unfortunately this guy does it for me:(

[norther practitioner]

Revisited those threads... thanks for the reminder (shakes head)...

I hope there are some letters written to the editor if y'all are still all that pizzed about them.

[Oso]

Sifu Abel and RD have the beef with the whole tai tzu thing.
I only touched on it.
all the xingyi and bagua info I got from Kash (by way of my old sifu) has basically checked out with only the usual discrepencies you find from line to line.

Prout on the other hand I know personally...I just want him to fight to prove all that paper he supposedly has now...but he won't.

[GeneChing]

you guys can always Pm me about this if you like. ;)

[Oso]

Gene, I think Sifu Abel and RD would (and probably will) contest that Sifu Kash actually knows any Tai Tzu. I don't know enough tai tzu to tai mai shu ( oh, I crack my self up sometimes:D )

i'm just irked that Prout has made it into a magazine when I personally don't think he really TRAINS much less has the azz to back all his claims up.

mmmphf...mmphw...mmgry

my girlfriend just did a rear naked on me so I'll shut up now

sorry, nuthin' against you guys or the editorial policy.

I do wonder this though, no foul if they submitted to more than one mag but surely one of you accepted first. They had to have known they were going to be in one before the other and should have declined the second offer. I'd bet your offer was second and they wanted the exposure in the better mag. (not asskissin', just truth.)


(and NO, she is not available to do a rear naked on anyone else)

[SifuAbel]

I can only bite my tounge for so long.

The whole assertion that ELF is primarily an internal style that looks like Yang tai chi is utterly absurd. And, that only the southern styles were more external? Gimme a break.......

There was a tape out not long ago from shaolin inc. documenting the different branches of tai tzu chuan, there were NO tai chi like forms in that entire tape. AND, the northern tai tzu forms were very external.

Sorry, I'm just not buying it, never have. And after this I probably never will.

[Stranger]

Let's not forget the kuntao-silat article by Monkey Slap in IKF. I thought that was an excellent article.

[Oso]

agreed, that had been the main reason I've been looking for it, but it hasn't hit shelves here yet. looking forward to seeing what the 'brutal *******' looks like.

[GeneChing]

mmmphf...mmphw...mmgry That's waaaaay more information then we needed to know. :eek:

But in response to your comment, firstly, writing does not always go hand-in-hand with training. In fact, many of the top masters can't write to save their lives. And as for me personally, I'd be remiss if I didn't admit that my personal training regimen sucks. So that's not necessarily a reason to dis a submission. But secondly, and more importantly, simultaneous submissions are frowned upon, especially when there are so few magazines really. It's not like we won't notice. Authors may gloat for a the month or so that they are on the newsstand, but the publishers will always remember that event, and no matter what they do, it will cloud any future submissions.

It's interesting that BB and IKF have been stumbling over each other lately. Last month, they both did covers of David Carridine in almost identical poses. This month, they both did the Last Samurai (although very different covers.) As for us, we delegated all that press to the net and gave it up to y'all for free. We covered Kill Bill (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=410) from a much different angle. And you'll see an article on Last Samurai by Dr. Reid (same author who did the cover story for BB) which we'll post today or tomorrow. Dr. Ried even covered Matrix (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=422) for us. I would be very interested to hear your comparisons of our ezine coverage to their cover stories.

FWIW, I did a pseudo-simlutaneous submission back when I was a freelancer for Shaolin monk Shi Yanming. The stories were entirely different. Entirely. But I had the cover for both IKF and Kung Fu magazine (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=99) in late '99. Because the arrticle were completely different, it didn't reflect too poorly on me at the time, since I got hired here very soon after.

[Oso]

Gene,
I agree about training and writing not necessarily going hand in hand. Probably one of the reason's there is conflict between lineages so much of the time.

I'll just shut my trap about Prout. He'll get his in the end.

I still can't wait to read what they've said about themselves.

should be pretty funny.

[CrippledAvenger]

Gene, a quick question...

How does one go about getting a freelancing gig in the martial community? I'm looking to start moving into other areas of writing and genuinely curious as well.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Stranger
Let's not forget the kuntao-silat article by Monkey Slap in IKF. I thought that was an excellent article.

That's the article I was originally looking for. It's not on the newsstand anymore

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by CrippledAvenger
Gene, a quick question...

How does one go about getting a freelancing gig in the martial community? I'm looking to start moving into other areas of writing and genuinely curious as well.

I'm curious also. I've got some ideas I'd like to work on and submit...

[Oso]

does anyone know which month MST's article was in?

Nov? Oct?

[GeneChing]

The defination of freelance is: a person, especially a writer or an artist, who sellls his or her services to employers without a long term commitment to any one of them. It descends from a term used for medieval mercenaries. So to get a freelance gig, you just got to find an employer who will buy your stuff. Actually, there's a lot more to it than that if you intend to have any longevity at this craft. I refer any freelance aspirants to the Writer's Market, an annual publication that gives you all the information you really need about the biz, contacts, how to write queries, distribution, compensation, turn around time, you name it.

In the martial arts, the bulk of what is published is freelance. For us, here is our writer's guides (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/about/guidelines.php). If you're interested, after reading the guides, drop me an email and query your idea.

BTW, you'll learn quickly that this is not the way to make a living. It really doesn't pay well. Even if you could get published in every issue of every martial arts magazine, which is pretty much impossible, you wouldn't make enough money to make rent, at least not here in America. Writing for the martial arts is a thankless task. In fact, more often, you'll take your licks just like Prout is here. That being said, good luck to you! :cool:

[Oso]

so, how do you go about authenticating the information contained in a submission?

[Goldenmane]

But in response to your comment, firstly, writing does not always go hand-in-hand with training. In fact, many of the top masters can't write to save their lives. And as for me personally, I'd be remiss if I didn't admit that my personal training regimen sucks.

I'll put my hand up for that, too, and I don't have anywhere near the output that you do.

It's interesting to me, and I've been pondering it recently, that I train less now than I did before I got a job writing about MAs... and I write less than I want to because I spend so much of my time trying to research as much as possible.

I've effectively become a martial arts journalist, which has lead to me becoming a less developed martial artist in many ways. I think that there is a danger in this, because you drift away from really getting in there and physically knowing what you're talking about... so recently I've been working on trying to re-organise my schedule and get stuck back into training properly. Being a theorist is all well and good, but it does tend to play havoc with your credibility.

Still, I can't complain. I get to study and write about the martial arts for (almost) a living, and how many people get to do something as cool as that?

As to freelancing: it has its upside, in that you get to write whatever the heck you want... but the downside, as mentioned, is that the pay tends not to be so good.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Goldenmane



I've effectively become a martial arts journalist, which has lead to me becoming a less developed martial artist in many ways. I think that there is a danger in this, because you drift away from really getting in there and physically knowing what you're talking about... so recently I've been working on trying to re-organise my schedule and get stuck back into training properly. Being a theorist is all well and good, but it does tend to play havoc with your credibility.


Not necessarily, I wouldn't think. I'm not gonna question the boxing cred of foreman because he doesn't box anymore. He's been there. He's been further than most will ever go. There's no doubt that he did his time. He may eventually get out of sync with newer training methods and such, but you can't really question his credibility...

As long as you have actually been more than a theorist at some point in time, cred questioning probably won't be a big thing.

[Oso]

credibility is my issue with Prout. I know every ounce of his martial history. He's simply riding on whatever credibility Kash has which has been called into question on numerous occasions.

[Goldenmane]

I'm not gonna question the boxing cred of foreman because he doesn't box anymore. He's been there. He's been further than most will ever go. There's no doubt that he did his time. He may eventually get out of sync with newer training methods and such, but you can't really question his credibility...

True, true.

I've never reached that level, or anything like it, though. Still, I'll keep plugging away at it.

[GeneChing]

That's a very good question. Having over nearly three and a half decades of personal experience in U.S. martial arts, as well as having martial arts as my sole source of income for over a decade and a half helps. Having a lot of good friends, including all of you on the forum helps too. I won't say it's an infallible system. In fact, this is why I find our discussion of our last article so interesting here. Now, of course I'm familiar with ELF, but this has been my first interaction with Kash and Prout, and a simultaneous submission is a poor start.

FWIW, we, like any magazine, publish articles for many reasons. For example, we recently published an ezine article about some negative Shaolin experiences to elicit a dialog (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=26660) on the subject (by the way, I was taken to task about this by a Shaolin monk a few days ago, not a pleasant position to be in, I can tell you). Now this is different than publishing articles to incite feuds, as our competitors on the newsstands have oft been accused. In this case, I wanted to acknowledge the other side - being a Shaolin disciple myself, I didn't want to sound too propagandistic, so I allow the other side it's platform now and again. In that case, one might ask how far I went to authenticate that article and to be honest, I didn't go very far. My instinct told me his experience was valid. And it has eliected a good dialog, as you can see.

[Yum Cha]

Hi Gene,
Concerning good reads, I think the Shaolin story was an incredible read.

Not only because it was a good insight into the reality often lost amongst the platitudes and (alleged) mysticism in all things Shaolin, but also because it reinforced the essential element in any martial artists journey through the arts: that it is your journey of "hard training" alone - there are no shortcuts, even at thesource.

Additionally, I think your courage in publishing it puts you a little further up the ladder than some of your compeition.

Thanks.

[Brad]

I've exchanged emails with Prout. Dude made some pretty big claims that could get some very unfriendly knocks at his door ;) He basically gave me a page long hostile arogant run around about a simple question when I inquired about his school's Chin Woo membership, and refused to discuss the subject any further. Came off as a real *****. I didn't bother reading his article. Took one look at the pictures, knew who wrote it, and put the book down.

[Oso]

:)

[Oso]

I've attempted to respond to your email regarding this discussion twice.

"user unknown"


???

feel free to email me again.

[Stranger]

Sevenstar,

Go to Borders, Barnes & Nobles, etc. It has to be somewhere in Memphis.

[GeneChing]

We've been discussing on a thread on our Shaolin forum - click here! (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=26660)

[Royal Dragon]

I'm staying quiet as much as I can...buuuutt, I have to agree with Abel on the comments about Kash's internal Tai Tzu looking like Yang style Tai Chi.

If the internal Tai Tzu even exists, it's the form Liu Yun Qiao taught to Adam Hsu. I have footage of it being performed by a student, externally, but I CAN see how it could be internal if the principals were applied. Does it look like Kash's Yang style Tai Chi short form, that *HE* calls Tai Tzu? Nope, not a shade in hell. It's a long Fist form pure and simple, just like the rest of the system, seen world wide across many branches.

My stance on Kash and company is pretty well known by now, so there is no need to go into it further.

I'm only going to say to Gene, "Shame on you, you should have known better."

[MasterKiller]

I'm only going to say to Gene, "Shame on you, you should have known better." Gene is just the messenger. You don't like what was written? Get off your tush and write your own article. ;)

[Royal Dragon]

Actually, I'd like to get a collaborated effort between myself, Abel's line, and several other that I know who do authentic, traditional Tai tzu Chang Chuan. I have a rough draft already written covering history, evolution and a break down of various branches, and how I believe they all connect together.

What I need is for those who practice the art, to contribute some if of their own lines, and histories, as well as some video of their forms, and maybe some applications as well, so I can digitize them, turn them into still shots, and include them in the article.

When I have all my facts square, and all my "ducks" in a row, I want to submit a three issue series covering everything from the Shaolin Temple Tai Tzu, to the Tai tzu Hong Chuan, the short Southern system, the Monkey that goes with the Long Fist, to the elusive, and rare Internal Tai Tzu (And believe me, it AIN'T a Yang Tai Chi short form).

I'm a long ways away from having something that solid though, but it has been in the works for about 9 months to a year now.

I can say this though, Tai Tzu is Tai Tzu, it's NOT Hsing I, Tai Chi, or Bagua. Six harmonies, Eight Methods DID NOT come from Tai Tzu. If anything, some of the "Tai Tzu" came FROM Six Harmonies, Eight Methods as the Emperor is said to have been a child hood student of Chen Hsi-i, the mythical founder of the Six Harmonies Eight Methods style. That article by Kash and Prout is so full of lies, BS and twisted half truths, I can't believe KFM would even consider publishing it in the first place.

I'm getting more and more PO'd as I write, can anyone tell?

Watching a baffoon like Kash prostitute the history, and legends, and seeing him twist it all around for his own Egocentrical, selfish money Grubbing desires, wile not even TEACHING anything remotely like Tai Tzu (Ie his Tai Chi, Hsing I and Bagua is being taught instead, unde the ELF headding), not only makes ME sick, but Tai tzu practitioners I know around the WORLD are sick to their stomachs at how he rapes, and degrades our art.

Those of us that practice it SHOULD step up, and counter this moron so the world can see what it is we really do.

Authentic Tai Tzu Chang chuan is a breathtakingly beautiful art, rich in history, lineage and movement, yet at the same time, it's direct, effective and devoid of useless flash seen in many more modern Long Fist styles. It's contributions to, and influence on the entire Chinese martial arts community is both profound, and wide spread. It stands on it's own feet, of it's own value as a priceless part of Chinese culture and tradtion. One who really knows the art, even in part, does not need to *Sell* the stories and history of the Emperor, and *Sell* the name "Tai Tzu Chang Chuan" to his students, and then turn around and actually teach Tai Chi, Hsing I and Bagua in it's place. Those of us who actually *Know* the art to any degree only need to show our art as it has been done for over 1000 years, as it is meant to be. We don't need deception to survive, and propagate our teachings.

[Natural Tiger]

RD,
Im a student of Sifu Kash's, a private student. I researched him and have spoken with many of his former students and families of his teachers. He is legit. I don't study Long Fist but the Five Family Fist Kung Fu. Yes I have conversed with Sifu Sime Ma.
You seem to have an issue, with what Sifu Kash is teaching, but who are you to question this?! So you must have this knowledge from studying from a famous teacher or have you compiled some information and are now have this knowledge. Let us put these arguments to rest and come up with a soulution for you and all others out in internet world.
I would like to extend a hand to you in GOODWILL and invite you to the new school of Sifu Kash's, my cost. I will pay for your travel (flight and transprotation to and from the airport), lodging and meals. Is it worth your time to come and have all the answers to your questions, all the concerns you have clairified or are you just a person who loves to stir the pot?
What will it be? (by the waySifu has no idea Im doing this) A free trip to N.C., While here you can travel, at my expense, to the beautiful town of Boone and visit Master Ric Ward and tell him in person what he teaches is also not real Kung Fu. He may not be as friendly about this.
This is a friendly, but very serious invite. Time to put up or shut up, put your money (my money) where your mouth is. What do you say. This trip may help get your ducks in a row.
I await your answer with great anticipation.

Natural Tiger (EVL)

[Kristoffer]

free trip.. cool.. Wanna pay my plane tickets too?

[SevenStar]

If I say your sifu sucks, will you pay my way too?:D

[Chang Style Novice]

Wait - did Natural Tiger just issue a challenge to RD to fight his sifu??! That doesn't sound so kosher to me, "let's you and him fight." In fact, anybody that tried that with me would be more likely to get his ass kicked than the guy he wanted me to beat down.

[SifuAbel]

If he's not carefull with his next few posts, what he might end up with is several people showing up at his door, not just RD.

There are a lot of people not exactly thrilled with Kash.

[GeneChing]

You don't like what was written? Get off your tush and write your own article. Thanks MK.

On a side note, it turns out Kash's article wasn't the only simultaneous pub we had in our
Jan Feb 2004 issue (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/kf200120.html). Adam Hsu also simultaneously published his Three Magic Mirrors to Reveal the Purity of Your Kung Fu article in Taiwan Wul Lin Vol. 15, presently on stands in Taiwan. Of course, that version was in Chinese, so there isn't so much overlap.

BTW, have you checked out Taiwan Wu Lin yet? It's the best Kung Fu magazine out there (except for us of course). It has really nice production, reminiscent of some of the high end Japanese MA magazines, and some great traditional articles. I really admire their work.

[norther practitioner]

I'd have to use it as a picture book..


This could get intresting by the way.. granted if this guy is for rizzle.

[Natural Tiger]

My reply was to RD not you. You also think you know everything and your system is from a different line of long fist, came from The East via South America am I correct?

If RD wants to fight he can fight me, not Sifu Kash. That would not be a fight it would be a killing so why bother. I thought RD should see the man and his skill so he can grow up and stop bad mouthing others.

If you want to fight me Abel no problem. If you want to come to NC and do it give me a date and time and I will be there. You have a big mouth and talk alot about yourself and how tuff you are. Challanging others then not following up on the threat. I'm willing to take you on and see what you have. I won't waste my time because you won't even show all you will do is talk, talk, talk like normal. Don't mention your famous line of "...wiping the floor with my face and handing me my ass.." stuff you always say. Just shut up and show up.

As far as RD I will wait until his reply to make a reply to him. Its meant in good spirt not as a challenge.

[norther practitioner]

8.9

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, so you bring me to Kash, and show off whatever it is you do, it still does not matter because your never going to convince me, or anyone who knows better, that an obscure, system based on the 8 postures, and a Yang style Short form is in any way shape or form related to Tai Tzu Chang Chuan.

That would be like saying "Cha Fist" is Tai Chi, or Hong Fist is Tai Chi. It just isn't, and the Tai Chi, Hsing I and Bagua Kash bills as Tai Tzu ain't Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, no matter how you slice it.

It's just like his "Cloud Forest *Chin Woo*" has absolutely NOTHING to do with the real Chin Woo Athletic association, no matter how much he says otherwise, and no matter how many pictures of Chin Woo's founder he has, and no matter how many times he puts the history of the real Chin Woo up on his site.

What he does is "Chao style" Kung Fu (For lack of a better classifaction), and what ever it is he learned from Won Ark Wey (of which he's no lineage holder btw) mixed with a little of this, and a little of that all rolled together.

If he was a real man, he'd just own up to it, and let his system ride on it's own merits, instead of being such a huge "Poser" about it.

[norther practitioner]

I thought we aren't allowed to say







Chao

[Royal Dragon]

LOL @ Seven Star!!!!

And yes, we are not allowed to say CHAO!! It makes Kash mad. He has the word CHAO, copywritted and patented you know. :eek:

[Natural Tiger]

Ok so you don't want to come and learn anything.
Poser, your the poser and have delusions of grandure.
Again an open line was offered and it again has been declined by you.

You seem to have a big ego and no backbone to hold it up. You seem to have a problem with anyone who knows more than you and that can kick you tail.

As far as Grandmaster Wong, you are wrong my friend. I knew Grandmaster Wong for many years before his death I did not study from him but I visited his school at least once a week, my best friend took class from him. Kash was there on many occasions. I sought Kash out, Ma was in Mexico (or someplace outside the US away from California) and I wanted to learn Five Family Fist. Kash is an authentic holder of the Wong's Five Family Fist, no matter what you say. I have proof not from Kash but from Ma himself. Email him again to find out "ELF Student". You know I know don't you.

If you want a good butt kicking, which is what you need come to NC with Abel and I will take both on at the same time. If you want to visit in peace it is perfered but the other is ok too. Just don't come in and act like a fool infront of the public classes especially the kids class. Someone came in once and showed a knife in a kids class. The cops were called and it was ugly and a stupid way to act. If you come have respect and plea your case. If you want to fight we can do that too. Let me know

Natural Tiger(EVL)

[Royal Dragon]

I'm not interested in fighting you guys. I'm also not interesting in comming in and learning your system. I already know the Taiji, and It's not bad, but it's also not Tai Tzu. It does not matter how much you say it is.

Who are you BTW?

[SifuAbel]

"My reply was to RD not you. You also think you know everything and your system is from a different line of long fist, came from The East via South America am I correct?"

UUUUUUUUh no, that was somebody else. The south america guys are a whole different group. Get your facts straight.

Here's a question, since you are so ready to lay down challenges and seems to know "all" of my history, why didn't you ever show to my san fran school in the four years that I was there?

You seems to know alot for guy that signed up yesterday and has two whole posts , all attacking RD.
Also, who in the blue hell are you?

Go where? These are tidbouts you seem to have left out.

BTW, its not just me that is up in arms about your school. People of several schools feel the same way.

Tell ya what, my teacher is in FLA which is a much cheaper ticket than so. cal., you can show up there and "set him straight". Or If you like, why don't you have Kash make an open challenge to my teacher? He will oblige you.

[rogue]

Natural Tiger, the usual waiting period for attacking Royal Dragon is two weeks. Please follow forum rules.

[Oso]

LOL

man this is funny.

[rogue]

I will pay for your travel (flight and transprotation to and from the airport), lodging and meals. Is it worth your time to come and have all the answers to your questions, all the concerns you have clairified or are you just a person who loves to stir the pot? Natural Tiger, please follow the other forum rule on not asking Royal Dragon out on dates until Gene Ching gives the OK.

Nothing to do with this thread, but on second thought maybe it does. (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/152686_waste16.html)

[Natural Tiger]

I will follow the rules better next time.
It wan't a date, I didn't mean to tread on Abel's territory.
He seems to get mad when others attack his bit**.
Sorry Able. Why protect him?
Again you reverted back to your Sifu, like you always do. Can't stand on your own two feet as usual. Idol threats and broken promises are you forte.
Come to my school and get a good ass kicking by me or go to your school and disrespect your school and your teacher. Im sure Sifu Rubio would not approve of you being a fight promoter. Im sure Sifu Rubio has better things to do than to fight. He has his day care/ kung fu school to run.

Im glad he taught you, punks need a place to learn as well. Do you teach in Southern California? No or yes. Where?

RD, you hide behind a computer keyboard, talk a good game, but do you have the skill and the ability to back your mouth up? I doubt it. Come to NC or I can come to Chicago (Downers Grove) and visit you. You might want to learn some forms from the "Champion of Forms" Able. so you can be more skilled.
Let me know, and this is a serious offer.

[Kristoffer]

State your name and rank. Without these, there is no real challenge.

[Royal Dragon]

Natural Tiger, the usual waiting period for attacking Royal Dragon is two weeks. Please follow forum rules.

Reply]
Actually, there is an exception for Kashholes - They get to sign up, post NOTHING but threats and attacks on me for whatever time period they deem fit (And this started out of the clear blue sky, back when I WAS STILL UNDER THEM!!), then they leave and are never heard from again.

RD, you hide behind a computer keyboard, talk a good game, but do you have the skill and the ability to back your mouth up? I doubt it. Come to NC or I can come to Chicago (Downers Grove) and visit you. You might want to learn some forms from the "Champion of Forms" Able. so you can be more skilled.

Reply]
First of all, I thought this was not a challenge, second of all what would a meeting accomplish? I'm not allowed to show you guys any real Tai Tzu anyway, so all I could do is work out the video sold by the Monks, and demo that, I'm never going to teach any of it to any of you because I'm A. not allowed to, and B. you've ****ed me off so much in the past I wouldn't teach you even if I was allowed to.

Second, you could sit there, and show me your Tai Chi, Hsing I,and Bagua till the cows come home,and it's NEVER going to convince me that a Tai Chi system based around an obscure Yang style Short form, and some Hsing I and Baguazhang have anything to do with a martial art known as Tai Tzu Chang Chuan.

[SifuAbel]

Lets get things down first. My teacher is sick to death of yours and would gladly turn him into a lump of ****. Expect his letter to IKF soon regarding the article. I know your teacher is too much of a ***** to meet mine.

As for me, how about this............

**** you, come on down here, since you're so ready to travel, and get your ass beat. Simple, isn't it. I'm in Riverside, thats about an hour east of L.A. I know a nice secluded park.

You want more info?

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by Kristoffer
State your name and rank. Without these, there is no real challenge.

Yes, that would be nice. State your name so we can ridicule you more effectively.

[GeneChing]

Our official stance on Challenges on the forum here is that there are not to be any. Obviously it would be counterproductive to our position in the martial community, not to mention potential liability, if we endorsed you all going out and fighting challenges over flames on the forum. It's really a silly thing to fight about, really.

Please take your challenges to a more private correspondence so we can wash out hands of such blood sport. If challenges happen between forum members, it is in no way our responsibility. We do want to hear about it so we know what's happening with our members, so if anyone hears of a challenge match actually occuring, report it here immediately. Especially who wins.

[Royal Dragon]

Will you publish the results in the magazine?

[SifuAbel]

LOL! Gene.

Ok so you've met your liablity statement requirements.

All you want is the juicy details. ROFL!

[rubthebuddha]

of course. he's a martial arts journalist. thus, he wants to know the haps, but he doesn't have a hyooge income, so he can't afford a lawsuit. :p

then again, who here does have a hyooge income?

and what dark alleys do they frequently take shortcuts through? :D

[MC Taiji Hips]

Wow...How unimpressive. I'll tell you, talkin' **** won't get you clout around here, son. If you really want people to respect your oppinion, make some good points. Don't just flap your gums about fighting people on the forum. It goes against the "humility" thing that martial arts talk so much about...

[norther practitioner]

If you want a good butt kicking, which is what you need come to NC with Abel and I will take both on at the same time.

That could be interesting...:rolleyes:


All of you should come to Colorado.. I'll host, y'all can fight, it'll be a real hootinany. I'm sure I can conjure up a vid camera and post it too if you like.

[rubthebuddha]

NP -- i'll come, but only if we can go TP my ex-girlfriend's house. you dig? :D

[SifuAbel]

Funny, no reply or stated name.


"take us on at the same time."
LOL! This guy is a legend in his own mind.

So is he in San fran or NC? If not from NC, then why the hard on to go to NC?

[CaptinPickAxe]

Northern Practitioner
All of you should come to Colorado

Thats a fine idea! I'll bring alcohol to fuel the fire. I'll be there on the 3rd-7th, so you should plan around my schedule:D

[norther practitioner]

LOL..

Rtb, deal...

wait, is she cute... where does she live?


CPA, you'll have to deal with that issue with the combatants :)

[GeneChing]

Sorry, we could not publish the results in the magazine. You can post what you like on the forum as long as it's not pornographic or liable, but we do not condone challenges, officially speaking.

[rogue]

I challenge that statement Gene! On page 28 of the Febuary 2004 issue of your magazine you give the results of the challenge between the Russian and Ha Hon Hung. Just thought I'd point this out. :D

Chao for now!

[GeneChing]

That's historic though and it's not like we had anything to do with it. The fighters are both dead, so they won't come back to sue us or anything, nor would we feel guilty if anyone really got hurt.

Thanks for reading the mag, rogue! That was a good challenge and I admit defeat here. Score one for rogue.

[SifuAbel]

waiting.............

[Royal Dragon]

rogue,

How many times do I have to tell you??


DON'T SAY CHAO!!!


David Kash gets all upset, and starts thinking he's got the name "world wide copy writed".

You wouldn't want to make a grown Grand Master cry.............would you??

[rogue]

Thanks Gene, I'll take my victories where I can get 'em. :D


The fighters are both dead, so they won't come back to sue us or anything, nor would we feel guilty if anyone really got hurt. How about if they just settled this by playing Tekken or Soul Calibre or something. Would you, could you print the results then? :D

Then, ciao for now!

[rubthebuddha]

rogue -- drekken (drinking tekken) is even better. the rules are variable, but typically, if you lose a game or match, you take a set number of drinks. if you win too many, you polish off your glass. that way, it's like scottish get-togethers -- everyone's drunk and there's lots of buttkicking, but no hard feelings in the morning. :D








btw ... chao

[SifuAbel]

web.............. :o

[teazer]

Originally posted by GeneChing
If challenges happen between forum members, it is in no way our responsibility. We do want to hear about it so we know what's happening with our members, so if anyone hears of a challenge match actually occuring, report it here immediately. Especially who wins.

& if anyone's coming to NC to 'visit', let me know & I'll drive up to watch impartially!

[SifuAbel]

web............

[GeneChing]

I'll take my victories where I can get 'em. me too, rogue.

web............ well put, SA, well put.

[SifuAbel]

web................... :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

web...........................

The spider is running dry.

[SifuAbel]

totally cocooned.............. :o :rolleyes:

[SifuAbel]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Meat Shake]

*swat*
****ed bees.

[SifuAbel]

Still waiting for the little girl............

[SifuAbel]

"I'm willing to take you on and see what you have."

"Let me know, and this is a serious offer."

"Just shut up and show up."

Show up where, darling? And see whom?

waiting............

[SifuAbel]

Can we assume this guy wasn't serious?

[rubthebuddha]

if he was serious, and had all this magical free time and money and was this upset, he'd have flown himself to you.

just give it a few more hours, abel ;)

[SifuAbel]

Looks like Mr. anonymous isn't going to show.

[SifuAbel]

Day 4.......................

[Royal Dragon]

You can't count today, it's a weekend. You can only count buisness days.

























:eek: ------------------------------------------------------------------->:D

[SifuAbel]

Did I miss something? Am I supposed to know where to go and whom to see?

[KC Elbows]

I'm offended.

One of the magazines that ran the article on tai tzu also ran an article on six elbows, and it slipt right past you people.

I just burned all of your christmas cards.

Anyway, it's mostly nice for the history section of tai hui(the core style of the author). Much of the pictures are standard kung fu, there is only one(if I remember correctly, I don't have the mag here with me) pic that is actual tai hui, the rest of the moves are sort of standard kung fu moves. They're part of six elbows, but not tai hui. Basically, six elbows is a synthesis style using tai hui as a framework, it's largely used as a stepping stone by a few teachers toward the tai hui material, but really, tai hui is the shiznit, but all you sukkas got is one pic of tai hui, clearly because you didn't think to notice the article while you were all arguing over your tai tzu.

Your Christmas cards are burning. To quote Conan praying to Crom "To hell wichu.":D

[Royal Dragon]

Sorry KC I was just upset because the artical on Six Elbows didn't show the Authors beating up the authors of the Tai Tzu artical, that's all.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Well KC, I saw it, and didn't want to comment since it seemed like false advertising - each of the people in the photos only had two elbows - NOT SIX.

Now how do you explain THAT?

[KC Elbows]

Having just read that article, there's a few misnomers in it, though nothing nefarious or anything. Six elbows was the nickname attributed to it once it got to the US, not early in it's history. And up until that point, it consisted of the internal form(tai hui) and the spear form, referred to in the article as staff, functional as staff, but clearly spear. As I said, most of the pics, except for single branch, are actually not part of the core style, but other techniques synthesized into the external sets.

The history is interesting.

It's my understanding that that article was submitted some six years ago. The author was my first six elbows teacher, the guy with the tats(Michael Reyes) my second. And we all hide our additional elbows, because everyone is always trying to steal them. Guess where mine are stuffed right now.:eek:

[Royal Dragon]

I thought maybe you had to add all the Elbows together from 3 guys.

[SifuAbel]

day 6...... I think we're being aged to death.

Thats the plan, kill us with old age, the ultimate weapon.

[MonkeySlap Too]

No, it's the really delayed death touch.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
No, it's the really delayed death touch.

It would have to be delivered astrally.

[rubthebuddha]

It would have to be delivered astrally<clenches buttcheeks>

[SifuAbel]

Thats astrally , not anally.

[rubthebuddha]

hm. better than asstrally. i don't want to know when it happens. :(

[SifuAbel]

stiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiil waiting........

[GeneChing]

True, that article has been in our file for a long time - I'm not sure if it was quite six years, but it did fall into a crack and stayed there for at least four years. Better late than never.

At this point, challenges aside, I must say first that we appreciate all of your commentary on these articles, everyone, we really do. But it's easy to sit back and comment on the work of others. When are you going to do some work yourselves? We'd love to have submissions from those of you who know the truth behind all this, when you're ready to step into the publication ring and show us what you really got. I'm always ready to listen to new submission queries - here are our writer's guides (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/about/guidelines.php) for your reference. That's my challenge to all of you. If you don't like the articles, go out and write some yourself.

[rubthebuddha]

gene just challenged us. :mad:

does that mean we should take him one at a time, à la just about every ninja movie made, or should we go at him altogether?

[Kristoffer]

U go first, Ill b over here

[SifuAbel]

Well Gene, My sifu is drafting a letter to your magazine.

He did have a spread on Inside Kung fu last year.

He didn't bother submitting to KFM since its so monk and asiancentric. A cuban woudn't make the cut. :rolleyes:

[Royal Dragon]

They published a fictional work by David Kash, a North Carolinian Hick from California (originally).

You'd think a Cuban who is a REAL master of the style who could publish something authentic, would be an easy in.

[SifuAbel]

I was surprised to see it myself, perhaps they are running out of monk stories.

[SifuAbel]

NT, you have a PM.

[Brad]

So, does Kash claim that Tai Tzu is made up of Taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi or does he claim that Taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi are Tai Tzu and not what they actually are?

[SifuAbel]

Dude, your guess is as good as mine.

[Royal Dragon]

He says Tai Tzu is the ORIGINAL Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua and just about everything else came from it as well.

[SifuAbel]

Oh Natural Tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiger, come out and Plaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy.


Don't be a puuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuusyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

[Royal Dragon]

Is that from the street gang movie "Warriors?"

[Kristoffer]

That movie is awsome

[Royal Dragon]

LOL!!!

I know how old YOU are now!!!

[Kristoffer]

I doubt it, although I've posted it b4

Don't hate the master pieces! :cool:

[SifuAbel]

<--------clinking three bottles together with my fingers.

[Bluesman]

Haven't seen that movie since the '80s. It rocked.

[SifuAbel]

Ironically, "Warriors" come on a few nights ago on Cinemax and was featured on" I love the 70's-1979".

So speaking of warriors, when is Natural tiger going to tell me where and who he is? I can't cower in fear if I don't know whom to direct it to.

[Royal Dragon]

I think we all know he's on dokungfu.com....................................do n't we?

[SifuAbel]

Happy new year!!!

Supposedly the "man" is in san fran and not you know who. But it semms we'll never know.

[fragbot]

Originally posted by Brad
So, does Kash claim that Tai Tzu is made up of Taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi or does he claim that Taiji, Bagua, and Xingyi are Tai Tzu and not what they actually are?

After reading that much of the article, I wondered if Tai Tzu is an actual style or if it's just something those two goofs made up for $$$.

For an art that supposed to be a pre-cursor to other internal systems, it sure didn't seem like they knew much about their descendants.

[Royal Dragon]

Tai Tzu is a real art, very real. I just don't think David Kash knows any of it. I believe his teacher, Chao Yuh feng IS a descendant of the Emperor, but I think he was not a Tai Tzu master. Instead, I think he does whatever Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua that is currently prevelant in his family. He may have done Tai Tzu too though, I don't know. All I know is EVERYTHING David Kash "Calls" Tai Tzu is Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua. His "External" Tai Tzu turned out to be varients of the modern Chin Woo forms.

My personal theory, is Kash wasn't interested in Tai Tzu, because he knew all the Won Ark way stuff (Tai Tzu is mostly external till almost the very end, and he had plenty of external stuff at the time), he wanted internal, so he learned the Chao family Taiji, Hsing I and Bagua instead. I belive he just "Clings" to the history of the Tai Tzu, as a marketing ploy. He's been doing this for so long, that it's too late for him to turn back, and be honest about it, so he just keeps going as he's always done.

I think he's a dishonest individual to begin with, so I don't think it's all that hard for him. My impression of him when we talked, was that he's a slightly delusion man, and to a point, may also believe his some of his own BS.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I'd be happy to be an impartial ref if that makes Nat Tig fel better. I've got decent creds - reffed at Bolt's thing, and dozens of Combat shuai chiao and Judo events. Probably can even arrange a location that is moderatly safe...

That's if Abel doesn't mind coming back North...I can promise both sides It'll be friendly, and professional - no BS allowed, just good sportsmanship.

Course - I don't expect Nat Tig to follow up on this, just thought I'd offer...

[SifuAbel]

I don't expect Nat Tig to follow up on this, just thought I'd offer.

Doesn't look like it.........

[Royal Dragon]

After reading that much of the article, I wondered if Tai Tzu is an actual style or if it's just something those two goofs made up for $$$.

As for *Two* goofs, no, Kash was doing this back in the late 80's, apparently wile Chao Yuh Feng was still alive, I'm told. Seibert is just the latest goof to give him a serious amount of cash to hold a place in the lineage.

The sad part, is it's not really too hard to find material on the system today. SC's John Wang has a set or two posted on it on the Empty Flower forum even. Over the years, I've managed to collect enough of it to put together an entire system of authentic Tai Tzu. Granted, it's a *Mad Sampler* of Tai Tzu from various lineages around the world, but I have begining, intermediate, and advanced sets of it well documented now. I defenetly have the "Essence" of it.

Now the hard part of working it all out, and testing my results is all that remains. We'll see if I have what it takes to finnish this project in the comming years.