Rolling & Breakfalls

[mantis108]

One the other thread, the subject of rolling and breakfalls came up. I think is a good idea to cover sound grounds with this subject. Here are some thoughts that I would like to share.

First off, I learned breakfall method from GM Chiu and then was shown another method similar to rolling in the Japanese art by Tainan. I have seen but not expirement with the Shaui Chiao rolling/breakfall. All of these involve 2 common concept. 1) the head must tug in tight and looking towards the belt. 2) the body follows the momentum of the throw or takedown and no limbs would be used in the attempt of stopping the fall at the initial phase. At the final phase of the fall, the landing, is where these techniques differ most. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses. That's where the stylist differences and how the styles function are found IMHO.

Rolling to me is to follow the momentum of the fall and using the largest muscle group available (ie the shoulder/lats, thigh, etc) to absorb the fall. The body has a certain "roundness" (kind of like a ball) to it. This way it is relatively easier on the body. Slapping of the hand is meant to prevent the over rolling into a less favorable position. However, most people view the slapping for "breaking the fall" which technically is true but I would discern it from breakfalls. Personally, I feel that rolling serves a much more important role in counter fighting a grappling situation. I would compare it to boxing being a counter fighting art develops bobbing, ducking, waving, etc... for staying in range to launch counter offensives. Rolling, if use adeptly, can turn an inferior position into a superior position. Rolling can be used aggressively or defensively. The problem of rolling is that it is more prone to a follow up ground grappling attack because of the mechanics. So learning how to deal with ground grappling at least know enough not to get mounted and to get back on the feet safely and swiftly is important if adopting rolling as the principle method of falling in Mantis. Note that I discern it from breakfall. So rolling can be viewed as stopping/breaking the fall (passive) or rolling attack/counter attack (proactive).

Breakfall is more traditional in Kung Fu. It spreads the impact throughout the body which assume a fetal postion with one hand and one foot extended out parallel to each other. The head is cushioned by the bicep of the extended arm if the fall is a hard one. Imagine the decaying posture of dinosaur except that your back is curl like the belly of the dinosaur. This way is harder on the body especially on a hard service. The whole body would feel the sensation literally from head to toe. Depending on the strength of the fall, breakfall allows an immediate kip up or tornado kick type of getting up or get away measure. It is more dynamic. But conditioning of the exponent is key. This also breaks up the engage. There is a forward flip with the foot breakfall as mentioned by Tainan. It is a rather hard breakfall. We don't normally training it. I have seen it done by advance students of GM Chiu but since very few occassion that I could think of to apply such a breakfall, I don't train it anymore. But for conditioning, it is a great thing to keep the kids busy for awhile. ;)

Shaui Chiao uses both rolling and falling IMHO. It depends on whether it is a throw (higher altitude) or a takedown (lower altitude). The fists covering the ear is good for strengthing the protection of the head. This would make sense for SC since quite a few of the falls are forceful and would cause the head even tugged in tight to shift out of control. For me, I am not comfortable with it because all the limbs are out of commission temperorily at least. So it would hinder the change of a counter offensive. Also it seems rather hard to resist not to use the elbow for help to stop the rolling effect in the beginning which means a higher chance of elbow injuries. Since the SC people have done it. I am sure it is just my being overly concern.

Just a few thoughts

Mantis108

[Tainan Mantis]

The foot slap I was talking about is not for forward roll.
It is sideways and the legs are place like in a scissors kick, but the whole body is on the ground.

Incidentally, With master Shr in Taiwan I was taught to roll on concrete first.
He said it is about like rolling on grass in the park, which is how he learned.
In Taiwan I can vouch for the fact that rolling on grass is about the same as rolling on concrete.

Just more likely to peel off skin on concrete if the roll has too much slide.

[Oso]

I've always taught the breakfalls first and rolling skills second.

To make the rolling skills work you must have beaten your opponent 'around the circle' so to speak. If you get thrown you must sense that you are being thrown soon enough to take the energy of the throw BACK by figuring out where the throw is going and moving there first.

A properly executed throw won't give you time to roll unless you can do this. Then you have to hope that your opponent doesn't understand broken timing throwing.

So, rolling out of a throw is better since you recieve less damage but it takes much longer to achieve this skill so the 'breakfall' is the simpler back up plan.

just my .02

[Meat Shake]

Rolling isnt always an option either... Even if you read the throw in time, other counters may be available, but there are any number of throws that you simply cannot roll out of.

[Tainan Mantis]

Oso and meat Shake,
I echo your points.

[mantis108]

Hi Guys,

Really appreciate the valuable inputs. I agree that breakfall would be first and rolling comes later. I believe that developing both skill sets would add to the depth of mantis training. Not that mantis training is lacking in anyway.

Hi Tainan,

I see what you mean. It is different from what you are describing. I have seen foot slap (as a technique) being practiced in the forward flip way as well although it is rarely in use. Incidently, one of my students, who weights about 150 and reasonably flexible and agile, was the practice dummy for the throw of 1st road of 18 lohan. He ended up landing on his feet once, kind of like he was bridging. It's like what they do in kung fu flicks. I didn't told him to do that. It was just a fluke. Unfortunately, he still felt afterward. It would be very cool had he been able to stand up from the landing position. The mechanic does seem to fit the forward flip with the foot slap. So, I guess I'll have to looking into it a little more sometime in the future.

Warmest regards

Mantis108

[fa_jing]

Monkey style has some interesting close-to-the-ground work that I have seen, such as fighting from the knees - does anything like that exist in praying mantis?

[ursa major]

Great subject Mantis108 and a good read.

I always enjoyed the thought that with PM break-falls were not much of an option -- given the nature of our throws. Still (IMO) it is an area well worth our study and training.

Best regards,
UM.

[German Bai Lung]

Hmm, it´s quite difficult to follow the exact meanings of your posts.

I can only mention the lots of rolls and fallings in the partner sets such as: Hong sao doi Cheong, Hong Sao Doi Dan Do, Seong Bei sao Doi Choeng and of course the Hand Set Chuen Ji Doi Da. In this form there is a lot of chinna, Groundfighting and falling.

Single Forms contains only throws and sweeps but no falling. Except the doblesabre Guan Tong Seong Do where are some rolls and cool groundfighting as seen in "Kill Bill". ;)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by mantis108
Depending on the strength of the fall, breakfall allows an immediate kip up or tornado kick type of getting up or get away measure. It is more dynamic.

kipping up in a fight is going to get you kicked right back onto the ground. You need to be defensive while getting up, and the kip up does not allow for that.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by mantis108


Shaui Chiao uses both rolling and falling IMHO. It depends on whether it is a throw (higher altitude) or a takedown (lower altitude). The fists covering the ear is good for strengthing the protection of the head. This would make sense for SC since quite a few of the falls are forceful and would cause the head even tugged in tight to shift out of control. For me, I am not comfortable with it because all the limbs are out of commission temperorily at least. So it would hinder the change of a counter offensive. Also it seems rather hard to resist not to use the elbow for help to stop the rolling effect in the beginning which means a higher chance of elbow injuries. Since the SC people have done it. I am sure it is just my being overly concern.



IME, with SC falling, there is no tendency or desire to use the elbows to help break the fall - that wouldn't make sense...it's only asking for injury.

As far as offense/defense, I would not try to view a roll as offensive. If you are using a roll/breakfall, you were just thrown and are at a position of disadvantage. your main goal should be to efficiently get back to your feet, where you are on equal ground (unless of course your opponent is on the ground too). Yes, you can attack from the ground, but even while doing so, the main objective should be to get back to your feet.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by ursa major
Great subject Mantis108 and a good read.

I always enjoyed the thought that with PM break-falls were not much of an option -- given the nature of our throws. Still (IMO) it is an area well worth our study and training.

Best regards,
UM.

I fail to see how that's possible. Do you know of any links online I can check out to see such throws? IME, as long as there is space between myself and the ground, I have room to breakfall.

Now, one thing I have noticed is that different types of breakfalls work better (at least for me) in different situations. SC has throws that make it hard to utilize the slap method, as your limb will be injured. On the other hand, I there are judo throws which were more uncomfortable for me using the SC falling method as I was thrown straight onto my back - there was not momentum in any direction except straight down. getting thrown straight down onto a rounded back can hurt more than the slapping method.

[Tak]

Originally posted by SevenStar
kipping up in a fight is going to get you kicked right back onto the ground. You need to be defensive while getting up, and the kip up does not allow for that. Sure, but it looks really cool. Until you get knocked back down again.

Now, one thing I have noticed is that different types of breakfalls work better (at least for me) in different situations. SC has throws that make it hard to utilize the slap method, as your limb will be injured. On the other hand, I there are judo throws which were more uncomfortable for me using the SC falling method as I was thrown straight onto my back - there was not momentum in any direction except straight down. getting thrown straight down onto a rounded back can hurt more than the slapping method. I concur with this. In our SC, we practice both methods.

[mantis108]

First of all, I don't mean to criticize on any style. I am only sharing my impressions. It is great that the inputs are coming in and also from various styles especially those we have mentioned. Having those inputs from those who have first hand experience is great. I hope we can all relax and discuss all things concerning this interesting topic. I also apologize to GBL and others that I couldn't get my meaning any more clearer that it is. I hope you wouldn't mind me making you to put the thinking cap on as you or others are reading this thread.

I haven't learn SC so I can only share my impression of what I see. I would be glad if any SC exponent shares his or her trianing methodology on the breakfall. Is there a step by step process or this is achieve by you are told once or twice and get the ball rolling? How would SC reinforce the idea of forming the fetal position with the fists on the ears in breakfall?

The Kip up is NOT for life threaten situation. I don't believe or suggest in a life or death situation to do anything fancy. Come to think of it, even martial sports situation is not a good idea because your sole purpose there is to win and you don't want anything that could screw up your plan. If you are "play" fighting with your peers, kip up is a "fun" thing to do. I am not sure if SC does siccors kick type of takedown or not but it is one situation that I can think of that kip up can be used for getting back up on your feet. It also helps you keep the awareness of not getting some nasty leg attacks from ground grapplers. All I am saying is many people in kung fu like to put things on the pedestal. They only revere things that they are told to work in a certain way. I think it is important to have fun with the stuff that you learn within reason of course. It wouldn't hurt during the process of learning to look into other ways of how things works. Just a thought.

A friend in his private email to me said that nowadays a lot of practitioners are conditioned to believe that when a master demonstrate a takedown/throw technique, or any kind of technique for that matter, on a student, there is that curl up and suck air mentality branded in the student's brain. I find this quite true. While it is entirely possible that one can be out classed, is it true though that there is nothing one can do to turn the table arround? I am taught in my style that nothing is a given. If there is a way that I can learn to blend with the takedown/throw to do the countering, I would love to learn it and use it to my advantage. I rather not curl up and suck air until I exhausted all counter measures. So rolling or breakfall to me offers more than meet the eyes oppotunities. If really the style that you take teaches you crush your opponent with one throw or one strike and you mastered that, more power to you. But for discussion purposes may be we should leave that out for now.

Regards

Mantis108

[Oso]

i was first trained to do a kip up simply as a physical exercise to show body control, not as a combative method.

now I'm a big fat azz and can't do one at all:p

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by mantis108
First of all, I don't mean to criticize on any style.

I didn't think you were criticizing. As you were giving your impressions, I was giving mine.

I haven't learn SC so I can only share my impression of what I see. I would be glad if any SC exponent shares his or her trianing methodology on the breakfall. Is there a step by step process or this is achieve by you are told once or twice and get the ball rolling? How would SC reinforce the idea of forming the fetal position with the fists on the ears in breakfall?

I was told. I also train in judo, however, so falling is like second nature to me. In judo, we did have a step by step process (which once again, didn't fully apply to me, as I knew how to fall when I started training) Here's the process we use for teaching a backwards breakfall to beginners:

-lay on your back, chin tucked, knees bent, feet planted on the ground.

-slap the ground with your palms facing downwards and have your arms at approx. a 45 degree angle.

-repeatedly slap the ground, making sure form is correct.

Once you are doing that properly, squat down. From the squatting position, roll backwards into the breakfall.

from there, do it standing.

The process is similar for front and side falls, and also for forwards and backwards rolls.

The Kip up is NOT for life threaten situation. I don't believe or suggest in a life or death situation to do anything fancy. Come to think of it, even martial sports situation is not a good idea because your sole purpose there is to win and you don't want anything that could screw up your plan.

lol, that's why I don't use it. When I was in longfist, all of the intermediate and advanced guys wanted to kip up. I was one of the few who couldn't do one, which was fine with me because I knew trying to use one would be dangerous from both street and ring perspectives.

I am not sure if SC does siccors kick type of takedown or not but it is one situation that I can think of that kip up can be used for getting back up on your feet.

Not sure if SC does (they probably do), but I know for a fact that judo does.


A friend in his private email to me said that nowadays a lot of practitioners are conditioned to believe that when a master demonstrate a takedown/throw technique, or any kind of technique for that matter, on a student, there is that curl up and suck air mentality branded in the student's brain. I find this quite true. While it is entirely possible that one can be out classed, is it true though that there is nothing one can do to turn the table arround? I am taught in my style that nothing is a given. If there is a way that I can learn to blend with the takedown/throw to do the countering, I would love to learn it and use it to my advantage. I rather not curl up and suck air until I exhausted all counter measures.

The purpose of the breakfall is not to curl up and suck air by any means. It's to ensure that you hit the ground with minimal injury. The point is to not be thrown. If you do get thrown, the only thing you can do is fall, so you'd better know how to fall properly.

Also, from a competition standpoint, I also train in BJJ. In judo, if I get thrown onto my back with a clean throw, the match is over. In bjj, that's not the case - the match will continue until either 1.)time is up or 2.)somebody is submitted. Consequently, when I get thrown, the first thought is that the guy is now going to try to pin/mount me, both of which are a BIG disadvantage for me. By turning to my side, I am making it harder for him to pin me and easier for myself to set up sweeps (not those kinds of sweeps - grappling sweeps... the principle is similar, but the application is different) and make escaping easier.

[Oso]

I was one of the few who couldn't do one,

:)

glad i'm not the only one.

I could do it when I was around 180, had to actually, to pass a certain point in training under that sifu. also had to sit on the ground/floor with feet extended in front of me and raise my self off the floor with my fingers as i kept my legs straight and hold it for a minute.

{haunting theme from all in the family playing in the background}

[Tainan Mantis]

I show a throw on Quicktime clip thread.
File is called "Dengta"

In Judo this crossing of legs is usually substandard.
But, I find sometimes there is little choice to do this when the hands are well knotted.

[Tak]

Well, breakfalling isn't all you can do from a throw. Example, with some hip throws, if you realize what's happening but are slightly too late to stop it, you can "go with" the throw to make the thrower overbalance (and gain yourself some leverage when you land), then use your momentum to roll through and slam the thrower to the mat.

[SevenStar]

I'd never given thought to that! I'll have to try it.

[Oso]

Tak, Seven: that's another aspect of what I was trying to say with 'beat him around the circle'

best example I've ever done was when I was snatched good by a head throw several years ago and as I complimented him on his throw I was able to pull myself through enough so that he was high when we landed and I was able to finish pulling him through to end up with the holddown.

so, once your kazushi has been taken, go to where he took it and be there first.

????

make any sense?

[yu shan]

Going with the throw is a very good point, a basic counter in wrestling. And hopefully you got some s h i t to follow up your momentum. And, it doesn`t necesarily mean someone is going to be slammed to anything! Even a mat.

[Shaolinlueb]

standing break falls and diving rollsare the bomb :cool: i recomend learning them

[Tak]

so, once your kazushi has been taken, go to where he took it and be there first Ah, he can have my kazushi. I'm not going to have any more kids anyway.

[CaptinPickAxe]

If you keep your body "soft" then you may have chance been dropped with head down first.

sc_guy has taken the correct and put it on a 10ft stick in front of the capital as an example. When Sifu Kirk and our group were practicing on wet mats, I made the mistake of being too relaxed. Gene, Kirk's formal student, slipped on a pulling throw and I fell and bruised my ribs. It was my fault and I've been practicing to correct that.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sc_guy

The Judo break fall will work only indoor on the mat. Imaging that you got into a motocycle accident and you are flying in the air and you don't have halmet on. I will assume that you will not use the Judo break fall to save your life on the concret. If you use the Judo break fall when somebody throw you then you just open your whole body and give your opponent a chance to drop with his knee or elbow on your vital area. Judo break fall is for sport and are very dangerous in real life situation.

I would disagree. it's not hard to turn to your side after slapping - it's like a hybrid of the judo and sc fall. I will not take a knee. as for using the judo breakfall on a hard surface, I have used it on concrete. with proper form, you will be okay.

[Tainan Mantis]

Having been in many motorcycle spills, I vouch for the fact that just about any type of roll training is good for hitting the pavemment at high speed.

Once John(of Ponglai) had me on the back of his bike when we hit the blacktop at about 40.
I was sliding down the road removing layers of skin. A controlled movement popped me off the ground and onto my feet thus preserving the deep tissue.

The best story is from my student though. After he had spent a lot of time on rolls.

He ran a red light at about 55 and broadsided a car. After flying over the car he rolled out and had nothing more than damaged ribs.

Also, his 4 years of Rugby helped no doubt. But I think the rolls helped more since he couldn't roll when he started class.

He himself also attributes some of the success to being sloshed at the time, but I don't recomend this as a way to safely overcome roadway accidents.

[SevenStar]

the knees come in, and you are balled up. the hand on the side that lands is the one that's slapping. Once the other is released, it tucks in. That one hand slapping will not cause me to take a knee. Like I said, it's a hybrid between a judo and sc fall.