Screaming, yelling, etc

[ursa major]

I was ref'ing in a tournament recently in which many of the participants made much ado about their ability to scream during katas (karate guys) even some kung-fu guys were doing it. Personally I thought they should buy some Halls or Vics throat medicine they were going to need it. To a man they all KEEAYE'd from the shoulders up rather than from the stomache. But I digress.

In the branch of 7 Star that I call home we do not spend any effort on, nor give any notice to, the bellowing of warlike screams, utterances or vocal gestures of that ilk during any training.

This struck me as curious -- not that I want to see us KEEAYE'ing about like the Karate folk are prone to do. But in 7 Star as it was passed down to me, well, we do not do it (and I have to say I do not miss it). But I am not 'against' the practice especially when it is done correctly.

So I wondered what is the position on this matter amongst our PM brothers? Do you practice vocalizing during training or executing techniques?

Best regards,
UM.

[German Bai Lung]

I watch the following point in my past years:

No screaming, no yelling during forms nor sparring. But with the years I put more attention on breathing.

Now I sometimes breath out audible during forms and during sparring I sometimes make a loud "ungh" or something like that. That put a lot of additional power in a finishing move!

But Kiai or hai, sorry, no way... ;)

[Young Mantis]

Hi UM,

We were taught not to vocalize whether during forms or application execution. In fact, we are taught to breath through our nose only and to keep the mouth closed.

The only exceptions that I can think of are in weapon sparring forms where we occasionally let out a small and sharp "ay!" when coming to ready positions but this is more for show and to coordinate timing.

It is my understanding that MOST northern styles do not vocalize whereas SOME southern styles do.

YM

[SaMantis]

Not much screaming and yelling among Wah Lum students. At least, not when we're doing our forms. ;)

There are points in some of the forms where one says "Yee," typically with a hard block or strike and a pause. Helps illustrate the move and its meaning/intent and we're instructed to bring it from the diaphragm. But none of this prolonged screaming that I've seen on the ESPN show (U.S. Open?).

We're instructed breathe in through the nose, out through the mouth in training. On tough training days our instructors tell us to make sure and "yee" during full-speed forms so that he/she would know we were breathing fully and wouldn't pass out from holding our breath.

There's no "yees" or screaming in sparring. Crying, sometimes. :D

[Michael Dasargo]

It is to my understanding that audible breathing patterns are omitted within TLQ systems due to the nature of combat. Strategically, you would be telling your opponent when you are at the bottom of your breath, resulting in a golden oppurtunity for the opponent to counter with a swift strike to the ribs or solar plexus.

Breath is emitted subtley and naturally, as the nature of combat as well as the practice of TLQ vary between aerobic and anaerobic activity. Respiratory Drills (Chi Gong) teach the body to breath at a natural rythm. When this intent is transcended into the transitions within the Eight Postures practice, the air expels naturally with efficient volume (versus forced volume) associated with the Fa Jing technique, thus allowing the practitioner to generate the power associated with exhaling (the "sinking" product of dropping the ribs and diaphragm) without informing the opponent of ones vulnerability.

Although TLQ has been noted to have been involved in secret societies, no audible signals, such as those found in Choy Lai Fut, has been established to my knowledge.

M.Dasargo

[SevenStar]

When I was training in longfist, I was taught that various yells stimulate various organs. There are like eight sounds - ha, hey, oi, and five others - I'll try to remember them, as I train bjj, judo/sc and thai boxing now - There have been posts on this topic on other forums in the past though, so if you search, maybe you can find more on it.


As for the yelling you saw at that tourney, IME, in forms competitions, some judges favor the loudest kiai and that may influence their decision on who the winner is.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Michael Dasargo
It is to my understanding that audible breathing patterns are omitted within TLQ systems due to the nature of combat. Strategically, you would be telling your opponent when you are at the bottom of your breath, resulting in a golden oppurtunity for the opponent to counter with a swift strike to the ribs or solar plexus.


in general, you exhale while executing a strike anyway...

[ursa major]

Originally posted by SevenStar
When I was training in longfist, I was taught that various yells stimulate various organs. There are like eight sounds - ha, hey, oi, and five others...

As for the yelling you saw at that tourney, IME, in forms competitions, some judges favor the loudest kiai and that may influence their decision on who the winner is.

Hello SevenStar,

Most definitely the louder an individual the higher the score. What I found notable about the 'screaming' at the tourney was that for the most part it was done from the shoulders up - a pattern that repeated itself again and again. It sounded like screaming and yelling and I did not get the sense that I was being addressed with internal energy. As I have been taught, and as I practice vocal intonation, one does not use the throat and vocal chords to generate sounds rather the mid-riff, stomach, diaphram.

FYI: I was taught hei, ha, foo, wah, etc and in Iron & Thread there is hoh, hna, tihk, yiht, pihk etc all generated from the lower regions all designed to stimulate organs similar to what you describe. Do you practice internal with PM?


Best regards,
UM.

[SevenStar]

UM,

I don't practice PM. I now train judo/sc bjj and thai boxing. When I found KFO about three years ago, SevenStar struck me as a cool name, and it had not been used by anyone.

[Oso]

I've recently been told that some karate systems practice a specific 'art' of kiado. probably spelled that wrong.


in any event, the sounds that issue should not be something you say but something you do whether you're a karate guy or a kung fu guy. a majority of what I see is as described above: yelling from the chest/throat and not issueing from the hara/dantien.

i've been told that the judges regard the kia as a indication of focus and intent with that particular tech. still seems a little silly to me.

[Tak]

I saw some 10-year-old kid on ESPN doing some kata with a glittery bo, and he yelled the whole time. I don't think he even took a breath. Of course, it was about a 15 second form, so he really didn't need to. It wasn't a kiai or anything like that, though, he was just yelling like some kid on the playground.

That being said, we don't vocalize in any of our (northern) styles, with the possible exception of the "Xing Yi grunting" about which I'm always hearing. Or maybe grunts of pain during training.

[Brad]

Most definitely the louder an individual the higher the score. What I found notable about the 'screaming' at the tourney was that for the most part it was done from the shoulders up - a pattern that repeated itself again and again. It sounded like screaming and yelling and I did not get the sense that I was being addressed with internal energy. As I have been taught, and as I practice vocal intonation, one does not use the throat and vocal chords to generate sounds rather the mid-riff, stomach, diaphram.
Yeah, I took Karate for a couple years and this was how I was taught. He didn't specifically say that, but never really taught any "yelling" method other than louder is better. All it got me was a constantly soar throat.

[yu shan]

When I was training in Wah Lum, exhaling thru a technique was taught as a YEE. This came from the lower diaphragm, and was always stressed this way. I feel this was tastefully done, never overbearing, yet always demanded attention. The way Wah Lum executes their forms and coupled with their vocalizing always made them stand out.

Pong Lai teaches me the emphasis of Fa-Jing energy and how to apply it. We do not vocalize, but put all this energy into our Fa-Jing. Whether in a form, exercise, two-person drill, two-person form or weapons, I truly feel this training makes us differant.

[Frogman]

:D
Have not given it much thought but when in Karate we did yell “Kiaya” and it was most certainly from the lower abdomen. Wah Lum does have a few points in their forms where there are Yee’s. This can be a good judge of group forms to make sure everyone is in the same time. I personally like to make noises under my breath throughout my forms. It’s a personal choice as I use the sound to time my breathing and I feel if done correctly will add to the intensity of the technique, when practicing, and if I’m going to “Yee” you are going to hear it, Deep and Loud, YEE!!!!!!


RibHit
fm
:cool:

[Shaolinlueb]

sometimes i'll let out a loud exhale, but its far from a scream. basing decisions on screaming is weak, i can scream loud and ill do it all through my form if that will win me it :rolleyes:

[Mr.Binx]

Most of the noises I make during practice are just me cursing at myself because my body did something other than what I intended it to do. :D Tho' I can say that when I was doing full contact budo I would often use a loud "Ha!" during a strike or block as a distraction technique so that my opponent would change focus to whatever limb I had feigned my focus to with the yell.

[woliveri]

Mr.Binx,

I can't make out all the Chinese Characters in your avatar.

Looks like:

Tien
?
Mei
Guo
Ren

What's the second character?

[Young Mantis]

I think Mr.Binx is being humble in saying he is a naive American.

[Mr.Binx]

Aye, Yong Mantis has the translation dead on. The second character is zhen. Just a simple joke and reminder. Tho' I wouldn't necessarily say I was being humble... :p

[Life long Student]

I wasn't taught any specific yelling, but mimicked that noise when exerting a great deal of force. It just comes out when doing certain moves. From some of my encounters at work, (bouncing) I found yelling in general, really throws off people. You can get them to almost stand still while you seize there limbs. I never found it to help give any more power in a move.

[Losttrak]

In our school , its not uncommon to alter and emphasize certain elements depending on the forum of competition. In karate tournaments, the shouting is integral to their forms (even tho I think they may have ignored the usage of it other than just a battle cry). We have a tendency to add shouts, extra moves, etc to our forms to "beat them at their own game". Likewise, when we face alot of the modern wushu or Chin Woo stylists we make adjustments. Some people may see this as selling out or whatever but if winning is important... you have to adapt to stay on top.

[Vash]

It doesn't matter if you fall down, so long as you get the scram out.