robert w smith vs chen man ching fight [Archive]

Syd

12-11-2003, 08:46 AM

Oh dear, we've hit a nerve... o.k

Strange that because Cheng had obvious fighting skills.

I don't have a problem with Cheng himself, but rather what passes as his system without his overseeing.

A lot of the American Cheng schools, BUT NOT ALL!!!!!, teach the absolute shell of Cheng's Taiji.

So do the one's in Australia...

And if you feel that push hands has nothing to do with fighting then you're not doing your push hands properly.

Push hands is a training application in order for the student to get in touch with many techniques. But if you think out in the street a crazed freak is going to settle down into a sung bow stance and engage you in push hands you've got another thing coming.

Yes there are applications in push hands and yes there is a method to the training. But at the end of the day there are many people who do only push hands and think that this is Taiji as combat! Competition push hands is such an example...

The Cheng Man Ching guys is our locale repeatedly stress push hands as the be all and end all. I'm afraid this is a drop in the ocean of Taiji combat jiben gong.

Push hands has everything to do with fighting.

I guess that makes you a Cheng Man Ching guy then...

I've come home from push hands classes plenty of times with bruises and dead legs.

You'll get more than bruises and dead legs in a street fight my friend...

What on earth do you do in your push hands classes.

We train the technique, as it is supposed to be understood, just that, a technique. It is not a fighting system.

And believing that all combat aspects of Yang Taiji exclusively comes down from Yang Shou Hou's lineage is not just laughable but naive and insulting.

Find for me where I made such a blanket statement as what you have stated above. The fact that you make such a claim is not just laughable and naive, but equally insulting... to yourself. I could care less whether you care to be accurate or not, your kidding yourself and nobody else.

Njoy...

scholar

12-11-2003, 09:58 AM

Pushing hands is a vitally important training tool for fighting skills, but it is just training, it isn't fighting. For fighting, actual fighting with people who may be trying to kill you, there has to be a synthesis of in contact and out of contact technique; accurate timing, coordination and positioning on the part of the student (brought about by free-sparring, mostly) that will allow the student to instantly translate pushing hands' principles into an actual empty hand or weapon-oriented conflict.

CMC only studied 7 years with YCF. In practical T'ai Chi Ch'uan terms, that isn't very long at all. CMC had the reputation among Yang Ch'eng-fu's and Wu Chien-ch'uan's senior disciples of having some push hands skills, and at 7 years with a very good teacher one would expect that. But there are trainings that wouldn't be addressed at 7 years into the traditional curriculum because the student wouldn't have the conditioning yet to handle them.

This is what has led to the biggest problem associated with CMC's forms. The famous "T'ai Chi Knee." Every CMC group that I have had experience with (including CMC's personal students whom I have met) has chronic knee problems, whether they care to admit it or not. When CMC shortened his forms (not just in the number of postures, he shortened their reach as well) he put the back leg out of a correct alignment when weight is shifted back onto it, causing chronic, long term damage to the knee joint and to a lesser degree the ankle. This is something which is the cause of great debate at a cyber-remove, but quite easy to demonstrate in person. Suffice to say that the modern Yang family has gone public in saying that CMC's forms are not Yang style, that they have been changed too much to qualify as such.

The next problem is a tendency among some prominent CMC stylists (the Robert Smith, Doug Wile bunch and others) to assert publicly that their study is the end-all of the T'ai Chi tradition, that CMC's modifications are somehow the highest expression of the art of T'ai Chi Ch'uan. I have seen this in print many times, implicitly and explicitly stated, and it always amazes me. As far as I know, there are still many teachers from the Ch'en, Yang and Wu families (with many more than 7 years experience) teaching bang-up T'ai Chi which, coincidentally, doesn't cause chronic health problems.

Rant over...

Syd

12-11-2003, 04:23 PM

Here, here....

backbreaker

12-11-2003, 06:54 PM

I've never had a problem with my knee doing taijiquan . My cheng man ching style teacher is powerful and so was his teacher who learned push hands from cheng man ching. There also was a yang long form taught by that teacher but I only learned the shorter form. I don't see how the stepping is so different from chen style exept that when you step out with your heel your leg might be too loose noodleish , but when you shift your weight forward from what I remember of cheng style , it's very similar to chen style. How is it so different? Chen protects the center line better I think

scholar

12-11-2003, 07:13 PM

Yeah, there is no doubt that CMC had good push hands skills, I've been told so by his contemporaries (I've even been told that personally by the late Ma Yueh-liang).

I'm glad that you haven't experienced any problems. I know too many CMC stylists who have had knee problems to not wonder about it, though.

Vapour

12-11-2003, 07:20 PM

I should add to this thread that CMC's Eastern Lineage (mainly from Taiwan) is baishi based.

Secondly, I used to study in one of a school with this Eastern lineage (Taiwan-Singapore-Malaysia) and I have used CMC form to fix my knee which I damaged in Judo. If you fail to relax your hip and back leg, yes, you could misalgine your knee. But getting the correct knee position (avoiding tight rope standing) is one of the first thing I was taught in this school. I found CMC one of the easites one to properly align the knee due to its short stance. But if you get the knee wrong, i could certainly see that CMC will mess up your knee due to its extrem weight distribution rule of 99/1.

Repulsive Monkey

12-18-2003, 04:53 AM

Strange though I have actually corrected a long held knee injury through 100% weight in one leg stances.
If the alingment it right then it only serves to strengthen the leg.

GroungJing

12-18-2003, 02:38 PM

Very few on this net have been in an actual fight.

Even fewer on this net have been in an actual fight with a skilled opponent trying to rip their head off. Chen Man Jing was in several and all were well documented

Can this be said about his critic's?

I have a friend who is a major Wu disciple and according to him an Older Wu family member who knew him said Chen Man Jing was a very good fighter when he was young. However, by the time he moved to the west, he had given up his fighting ways. Hence, he didn't want to teach fighting anymore. I’m not sure I believe this, I believe he left the martial side in his system, students just have to pursue it like he did when he was young. Yang Chen Fu didn’t like to fight either when he taught Chen Man Jing.

But it’s only a second hand source. I tend to believe it though. In Taiwan, It's known that he was defeated several times by some well-experienced boxers, but he improved greatly after every defeat, until it was very hard to beat him in a fair fight. Around this time few-dared attempt it, those who did lost convincingly. I think this would be the time frame Mr. Smith would have known him and wrote about him in his book. Later, he would give up the martial side saying "It was a contest best played by young tigers" or something to that effect.

Bottom line is.... He had a huge impact on internal arts in two different corners of the world. Pretenders usually don't achieve this; so I believe he was legit and I believe he was a great teacher. He’s been dead for how many years and we are still talking about him.

For the record, I don’t practice Chen Man Jing style

Unmatchable

12-18-2003, 06:12 PM

Doesn't William Chen from New York teach the combat side since he learned it from Taiwan for many years? I heard however that his son mostly teaches there now and all the san shou fighters are trained in kickboxing not tai chi to fight.

GroungJing

12-18-2003, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by Unmatchable
Doesn't William Chen from New York teach the combat side since he learned it from Taiwan for many years? I heard however that his son mostly teaches there now and all the san shou fighters are trained in kickboxing not tai chi to fight.

I have not heard this. I have mixed opinions about him and TT Lang.

taijiquan_student

12-18-2003, 10:39 PM

Why is that?

GroungJing

12-19-2003, 04:05 PM

I hear things and see things .....that's all.

No flame war tonight

jun_erh

12-20-2003, 10:35 AM

as an early christmas present, could one of you psychos comment on the actual topic?

cerebus

12-20-2003, 09:54 PM

Heh, heh. I have read a comment by Cheng Man Ching where he was asked if he thought Shaolin was a good martial art. He said that if he thought that to be the case he would be doing Shaolin instead of Tai Chi. When he let loose on Smith it was only a training situation, not a fight. I seriously doubt he used Shaolin or any other arts. Cheng was a Tai Chi man all the way and his Tai Chi was all he needed. For those wanting to read more about the effectiveness of Cheng's Tai Chi (the art, not Cheng himself) I would recommend the book "Searching For The Way" (I think that's the title) by Nigel Sutton. I know only very little Tai Chi (mainly a Hsing-I & Bagua guy) but I've had it demonstrated on me and was left with NO doubts that it can stand well on it's own. T.

Repulsive Monkey

12-22-2003, 08:05 AM

I know it sounds not too nice but if you want to see the legacy of Chengs martail ability I think you need to lok at the lineages that came down through his Taiwanese disciples and not that much of his American students. In this respect I do understand why some people have said here that Cheng didn't seem to need to fight much he was older and therefore didn't show it much. I can assure that his 12 main Taiwanese disciples did learn how to fight with Cheng. All of them probably had a different apititude and some excelled in certain areas more than others (some were known to be better than others), but I think , although I haven't read it, that Nigel Suttons book could testify to this partially if not wholly about his Taiwanese disciples getting their fighting skills from him.

It's true that Cheng's fights were seen by quite a few people and some famous encoutners like the one with the famous White Crane Master who he trounced where no one could see what he did yet repelled him back hitting a wall and knocking him out, was one witnessed by critics from both sides and therefore totally verified.
I think Cheng whilst learning his fighting skills from Yang naturally elvolved to prove Taiji was an excellent martial art but it weas more than that and hence later in life decided to concetrate a particular generation, i.e. his USA years, more on health. Cheng never taught so much information which he had whilst in America, I mean he never taught yang family Spear to any one in America, and he mostly taught people his modified short form, I'm quite sure there are American swho never got his Yang family long form. Another fact is that the Bear Classic Qi-gong which he gave as a parting gift to his 12 Taiwanese disciples was something which I don't think was openly taught to his American schools. Of course I'm not 100% sure about that one but I have it a source from a student of one of Chengs top Taiwanese disciple that that was the case.

Syd

12-22-2003, 08:39 AM

Here's a few lines from Nigel Suttons book "Applied Tai Chi Chuan"...

"Cheng Man Ching did not regard his form to be any simpler than the long form; indeed he made many changes of such a nature that they ensure the form should be regarded as a seperate style from that of the Yang Family" Page 16 Ch 2

The second reason reason given regarding why Cheng Man Ching shortened the forms? The first was to popularize Taijiquan for his own Nationalistic purposes regarding health. I always thought that Yang Cheng Fu had done this already!

"The second reason was his own laziness: He wanted to get through his daily practice as quickly as possible, but without reducing the efficiency of the exercise." Page 15 Ch 2

I just posted the above in lieu of prior debate regarding Cheng and Yang style, which tends to back my thoughts on Yang vs Cheng.

Regarding Cheng and his relationship to Yang Cheng Fu?

"In the Far East, Cheng Style Taijiquan, as it is known, is seen as a completely seperate system than it's parent Yang Style" Page 14 Chapter 2

"... Cheng, however, was by no means one of Master Yangs most famous disciples, and in mainland China today his name is virtually unknown. Those who do recall his name, remember him as the young man who was constantly challenging, and constantly being beaten by boxers of reknown." Page 14 Ch 2

Anyway I thought these may be of interest to the general debate.

Best, Syd

Repulsive Monkey

12-22-2003, 09:01 AM

Well yes but then every person who takes on a form taught to them by and large is creating or personalising their own form you could argue! Within the Yang family the different generations of Yang members are remembered for their distinctive take on the family forms.

As to laziness bit I'm not sure if this is reliable, you'll always get some saying it was laziness as to why he shortened things and others saying it was refinement/efficiency as to why he shortened stuff. Thing is he taught all his Taiwanese disciples the Yang family Long form untouched. He taught them what Yang Cheng-fu taught him.

It's no surprise that he was only a name in Taiwan becuase that's where his reputation spread, and thats where he spent a lot of his Taiji years, so that is correct. It's hard to say what his reputation would of been like if he had paraded his skills around China as a whole, but I don't think that was his mission in life. And the last bit about him being "constantly challenging, and constantly being beaten by boxers of reknown." sounds about right from his early years under Yang's tutelage, as I think Yang encouraged his pupils to challenges especially with members of different styles at times. Cheng was not the best fighter he was just up there with some of the greats, but by no means the best.
There is always someone who can beat someone else, surely this is the nature of peopole's gong-fu evolving and developing?

Syd

12-22-2003, 01:50 PM

As to laziness bit I'm not sure if this is reliable

He (Cheng) actually alluded to this himself and it is discussed within the book where Cheng admits he would rush through his forms because of a lack of patience and lazyness. Grist for the mill however.

Unmatchable

12-22-2003, 02:12 PM

who cares he's dead, and there is no video footage to show his fights (which all mma guys need in order to convince themselves an art is effective).

Repulsive Monkey

12-23-2003, 08:47 AM

Do you speak from a knowledagble standpoint there? Thats odd because I'ven film fottage of him with a Hsing-i master trading punches.

BAI HE

12-23-2003, 09:50 AM

Who was the Hsing-I master and where is the footage?

Vapour

12-23-2003, 10:23 AM

at that period, dojo breaking and challenge match was not uncommon. So you couldn't make name for yourself unless you won fights. Vidoe footage is just matter of technology. Would you say Miyamoto Musashi was not a good fighter because his fight was not recorded in video?

As of CMC being lazy, you really have to remember that he made name for himself not just as a taichichuan master but master of five excellence in other arts such as poetry, calligraphy, painting and most importantly medicine. Most people could master only one or not master even one. And he was quite decent at number of other chinese arts such as chinese chess to Chinese classics publishing number of commentary. Not something a lazy lad could achieve. Western equivelant is like being a ranked boxer, an authority in Greek classics, renowned artist of classical painting & sculpture who has held number of private exhibits, published poet and a the same time being a medical doctor. No wonder people were impressed by him.

In gong fu where someone's skill could be easily demonstrated by challenge match, he clearly did excell at it. Not a small feat given that he was a small man even by chinese standard.

I believe that more realistic interpretation to his style of taichichuan is that he reorganised taichi training into specialised drill. So in the morning, he did staff to train fajing. And every 10-15 minutes he can find in his busy schedule, he trained his jing by doing his "short-yang" form or neigong. That is obviously different approach from traditional style where you train everything in the form.

Short form is excellent training tool if you want to focus on one aspect/principle of taichichuna. CMC is a style stripped down to bear minimum/essence so that you can specialsied in various aspet depending on your training focus. And I know there are few masters who simply repeat grasping sparrow's tail for their exercise. (And I'm guessing that some Chen stylist just do silk realing) So it is not realy about what form or style you do but what you do with it that matter.

jun_erh

12-23-2003, 06:37 PM

coal in all your stockings

Unmatchable

12-23-2003, 09:59 PM

Is there any clips of tai chi being used in sparring (not push hands) or competition fighting without looking like kickboxing? What proof do we have of his fighting abilities besides Robert Smith who is known to exaggerate people's abilities espoecially his teachers. And William Chen who studied under the man. Every martial art is filled with tales of unbeatable masters but only few have evidence to prove effectiveness.

Repulsive Monkey

12-24-2003, 04:33 AM

Well how about his other Taiwan disciples and the those of the CMC opponents that he beat? I'll try and find some other documentation from a friend of mine.

BAI HE

12-24-2003, 07:02 AM

I'm with unmatchable on this one and
I think CMC was known as more of a Push Hands guy than an actual fighter.

You missed the sixth excellence, drinking and popping off at the lip.

CMC stated that he defeated Chen Pan Ling and Wu Meng Xia. I doubt he would have lasted 10 seconds with either of them and there is no documentation to support his claims. A fight of that magnitude would surely have been documented.

But I suppose when your Madame Chaing Kai Shek's fair haired boy, you are above reproach.

BAI HE

12-24-2003, 07:04 AM

Vapour,
Repulsive stated that he saw a clip.
I guess the technology was there (film?).

Some will take CMC and Smith's words as the truth, I take
them as words. That is what they really are.

bamboo_ leaf

12-24-2003, 09:41 AM

(Every martial art is filled with tales of unbeatable masters but only few have evidence to prove effectiveness)

So what dose this have to do with your training, your effectiveness?

I think the main differences between then and now is that back then the same questions where asked, people sought out the answerers directly.

Now people want to see actions of others and whine on the Internet asking for confirmation of something that they should be trying out for themselves.

Yep it must work I saw it on TV

Syd

12-24-2003, 09:49 AM

I must agree that the more I discuss Taiji on boards the less interested I am becoming in the activity. I never trained less because I spoke, but I think I plan to speak less in future and just train since the speaking seems to add nothing to my
proficiency in training but only my proficiency in speaking. The less I say the
happier I am... seems the wise sages knew this from day one...

I take my leave... Ciao ;)

Unmatchable

12-24-2003, 01:29 PM

Bamboo_Leaf,

most people today (including masters) aren't willing to fight to prove their own claims.

bamboo_ leaf

12-24-2003, 02:35 PM

Masters how dose one become an acknowledged master? Masters seek out others to train with and deepen their own understandings, whom do you think they seek. Not all are famous nor want to be. The unknown guy playing taiji in the park may be a master, ya never know.

People that I have met who others called masters, where very willing to let you feel their arts. I wouldn’t confuse entering some MMA contest as proof of anything other then being good in that environment.

Prove their own claims? What masters make claims that are unproven ?

Anyone can be beat, including masters their human too, they may exemplify a standard, or high degree of skill. Those seeking this skill will seek them out as those wanting to test the skill and see if it is indeed real.

In some cases it may not be real, for the person testing but real for all others. As CMC is quoted as saying something about Long kin Jin / empty force/ only being able to be used on students of the teacher. I think his assessment of this is misunderstood by many but it is an example of something that may work on some and not on others.

Unmatchable

12-24-2003, 05:24 PM

People that I have met who others called masters, where very willing to let you feel their arts. I wouldn’t confuse entering some MMA contest as proof of anything other then being good in that environment.
If we are talking about learning tai chi for healing than for fighting than that's a totally different matter. But alot of people are trying to learn it to learn how to fight and alot of these masters are cheating them and being delusional. They are giving people false hope and people could end up in the hospital because of this. MMA is a place that seperates the bull**** of martial arts from the stuff that works. If you have no intentions of fighting MMA fine, me neither, just stop spouting it. However, i believe when someone would want to make a competition fighting system out of TC it would be possible. just add heavy conditioning, full contact sparring with gloves and groundwork and you would be able to produce great sport fighters. the result would then probably look more like sport MT than like "regular" TC.

There WAS a death in the NHB scene, in the Ukraine a few years ago. They guy died due to excessive stikes to the head while mounted by his opponent, the ref, did NOT to a good job.
There are NO strikes that are TOO dangerous for the NHB scene, nor are there any holds that are TOO dangerous. There are just effective and less effective techniques.
NHB rules ALLOW neck shots, temple shots, you are ALLOWED to open hand strike, you can punch to the eyes, you can apply pressure to the neck ( front and sides), you can dislocate/ break, arms, ankles, etc.
What techniques to you think are TOO dangerous for NHB competitions ?

bamboo_ leaf

12-24-2003, 08:07 PM

a gun for for one. ;)

its what people fight with these days, try reading the paper sometime.

Not to argue the point, people die in boxing too, boxing is not MMA.

Neither are fighting. If you don’t feel that what you do meets your needs then don’t do it. If you want to check weather something is good or not test it. Pretty simple isn't it.

If you want to learn about taiji then find someone who meets your expectations and train with them. dont come to the net expecting answers to questions that only you can answer.

backbreaker

12-24-2003, 08:38 PM

At the last Pride I saw Royce was saying the outcome of his match with Yoshida was also B.S.

Unmatchable

12-24-2003, 10:36 PM

Actually someone did die in a nhb match in Russia, I already mentioned this. But it is the referee's job of making shure it doesn't happen. Only a small percentage of people use guns, mostly criminals (normal people don't wlak around carrying guns on them). Plus it takes special mentality to shoot someone and take someones life, average person doesn't have that kind of will to take a life so easily.

Vapour

12-25-2003, 04:46 AM

People dies in judo or wrestling or boxing match occasionally. NHB isn't as dangerous as it claim to be. If it is it will be banned. Plus the name is moronic. If it is real no hold bar, people will die or maimed in every contests and contestant and promoters will go to jail. If you don't do this to me I don't do this to you type of etiquette is essential if you want to perticipate in NHB.

Why not call it as what it is. Mixed Martial Arts contest.

Brad

12-25-2003, 11:00 AM

Advertising :D Everything is Karate to the general public, so Mixed Martial Arts doesn't have the same effect as No Holds Barred ;) Boxing can be more dangerous than mixed martial arts... the big gloves allow you to absorb more punishment without being knocked out, and the damage isn't allways apparent. Plus unlike NHB, in boxing there's no option to take someone out without hurting them. Submissions are much more forgiving to the body than consistant head shots. It's silly that boxing is accepted as a sport by many of the same places that try to ban NHB type events. Guess it's all about the money.

Unmatchable

12-25-2003, 12:35 PM

Actually the opposite is true in mma there is not need to take someone out without hurting them, because bjj is the fundemental art behind mma that every athlete trains in and bjj takes someone out by either putting a lock on them or a choke hold until they give up instead of senslessly beating on them. That is why there were so few deaths or people getting hurt in nhb rather than boxing. Boxers stepped up to mma competitions and bjj won (without hurting them). Mma training is alot harder than boxing because you have to have a good all around game and be an all around fighter instead of just specialising in punching like boxers, you have to knoow how to fight on the ground, standup grappling, thros, kicks, punches, etc. It is alot closer to a streetfight than a boxing match.

GroungJing

12-25-2003, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
a gun for for one. ;)

its what people fight with these days, try reading the paper sometime.

Not to argue the point, people die in boxing too, boxing is not MMA.

Neither are fighting. If you don’t feel that what you do meets your needs then don’t do it. If you want to check weather something is good or not test it. Pretty simple isn't it.

If you want to learn about taiji then find someone who meets your expectations and train with them. dont come to the net expecting answers to questions that only you can answer.

Ay I second this......

For the love of god, it’s the same old argument. The belief that UFC, shoot fighters are the only legit, real martial art masters and everyone else it just pretending because they are not testing there skills in a real environment is so done it’s burnt to a crisp!

As the post said……”People fight with guns now days”………

It was Colt that created man equal…. not God…remember?

I guess people don't think Frank Shamrock could get smoked (easily, I might add) by some 16-year-old punk with a 22 cal hammerless revolver

If you practicing a hand to hand martial art, you are out of date by at least 300 years. So Why do it? I do it cause its fun…And my felling is unless you train to be in a gunfight, best be quite with the macho chin music!!!

And as far as I know the most dangerous man on the planet lives in Texas. He’s in his late forties; about 5,9 weighs about 200 pounds and is fat and dumpy looking. He is in the Guinness Book of World recorded as having the fastest draw with a pistol. I saw on a TV special, him shooting two holes in a silver dollar thrown into the air at 20 paces. With one very very single fast draw, if you blinked (literally) you missed it! He got two shots off in one action. Go ahead make that man mad! Go ahead threaten his wife! Heck, go get a gun I bet you would still loose. The man is liquid speed and precision.

You could put the last four UFC champions in a room with that man, give him his gun and odds are he would be the last man standing. Imagine that…….A fat little dumpy man "the last standing."

Kind of make the whole UFC arguement moot doesn't it?

Unmatchable

12-25-2003, 12:37 PM

Sorry I read your post wrong. You said "there is no way in boxing to take someone out without hurting them." But anyway I am not pro mma or pro tma or ima, I just hate fanatics. Whether it's coming from which side. If you read my previous posts I was defending Tai chi and other styles from mma, and bjj drones like MarryPrakster, Archangel, knifefighter, etc.

Unmatchable

12-25-2003, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by GroungJing

Ay I second this......

For the love of god, it’s the same old argument. The belief that UFC, shoot fighters are the only legit, real martial art masters and everyone else it just pretending because they are not testing there skills in a real environment is so done it’s burnt to a crisp!

As the post said……”People fight with guns now days”………

It was Colt that created man equal…. not God…remember?

I guess people don't think Frank Shamrock could get smoked (easily, I might add) by some 16-year-old punk with a 22 cal hammerless revolver

If you practicing a hand to hand martial art, you are out of date by at least 300 years. So Why do it? I do it cause its fun…And my felling is unless you train to be in a gunfight, best be quite with the macho chin music!!!

And as far as I know the most dangerous man on the planet lives in Texas. He’s in his late forties; about 5,9 weighs about 200 pounds and is fat and dumpy looking. He is in the Guinness Book of World recorded as having the fastest draw with a pistol. I saw on a TV special, him shooting two holes in a silver dollar thrown into the air at 20 paces. With one very very single fast draw, if you blinked (literally) you missed it! He got two shots off in one action. Go ahead make that man mad! Go ahead threaten his wife! Heck, go get a gun I bet you would still loose. The man is liquid speed and precision.

You could put the last four UFC champions in a room with that man, give him his gun and odds are he would be the last man standing. Imagine that…….A fat little dumpy man "the last standing."

Kind of make the whole UFC arguement moot doesn't it?

So what's your point that we shouldn't be training because some people use guns? That's bs. If you want to learn how to fight whether it is for bouncing, whether you live in a bad neighboorhood, or whether you want to defend your wife from being raped martial arts will always be useful. If your learning tai chi for health than all the power to you, but don't lie to yourself and your students that your learning how to fight. If you want to learn how to fight advise them to go to their local mma down the street.

BAI HE

12-25-2003, 06:42 PM

There are plenty of TCMA men who compete:

go to
www.blacktaoist.com, he fights San Shou

www.shenwu.com
They fight MMA and BJJ

Mike Patterson's Xingyi guys at
www.xingyi.com

Look through the fighter profiles in the SanShou world championships, I believe two of the guys train Xingyi.

TaiJi?

Look no further than William CC Chen's son Max.
Numerous San Shou victories and even more impressively, a few Golden Gloves tourney wins.

Not sure where this thread is going, but San Shou is an extension of CMA and qualifies as MMA.
To say TCMA stylists can't or won't fight is rather ridiculous.
Do you think an MMA gym and it's cooperative practices will get you any more fight ready than a hardore traditional school with a full cirriculum?

I think not. Some high level grapplers have proven some things. What have you? You may grapple, are you as good as a Gracie?
I'll take a guy who trains TKD for 5 hrs a day over a mouth boxer who talks crap and struts around like he's walked his talk.

So Unmatchable, why make blanket statements.
If you think TaiJi doesn't work MMA pm "Shooter"? Please test it or do your homework before you start putting others and their training methods down.

Merry Christmas.
Bai.

TaiChiBob

12-25-2003, 06:52 PM

Greetings..

As someone else said, i don't train to go fight in NHB tourneys.. my ego is already too healthy, why add more.. i do train to be functionally capable in a situation, though.. and, IMA's will accomplish that given the right teacher.. Interestingly, it is my perception that the Taiji player is non-confrontational.. would look for a peaceful resolution to possible violent situations.. the Taiji adept would appear harmless until precisely the right moment to take advantage of surprise.. Training isn't looking for a winner, it's looking for a learner.. we train to learn and even a loss has lessons..

Matches designed to determine the "best" are also putting the players in unnecessary danger.. you never know what your opponent's intentions are, they may willing to maime you in order to win a match (possibly appropriate for the street, but not for fellow students).. I train for that unlikely situation when i might actually have to use force to change the outcome of a situation, i do not conduct my life as though that situation lurks at each corner (that's just paranoia, not to mention a poor quality of life).. I train regularly and intensely to meet such challenges but i conduct my life so as to avoid unnecessary ventures into those situations.. The best fight is the one you were capable enough to avoid.. Oh, and make no mistake, Taiji is quite effective in any arena, only too few people understand its full capabilities which are not limited to physical confrontation.. it is equally rewarding to control a situation through TaiJi skills applied to communication and reasoning.. The true loss, is the belief that physical force is the determining factor in a confrontation..

The most dangerous man on the planet? One of many that are willing to unleash unspeakable terrors on innocent people in the name of their righteous beliefs.. Not some well trained martial artist or gunslinger, that is just the voice of well-fed egos.. even the gunslinger is prey to a good sniper, and the sniper prey to another and so on...

As for Masters.. My teacher often said, there's a little old guy somewhere, probably mending his fishing nets.. that could walk through a gathering of "Masters" without them even noticing that he could defeat any one or the group.. he is the Master..

Be well...

Unmatchable

12-25-2003, 09:07 PM

Bamboo_Leaf It's called facts, try finding them sometime.

Texas 78,360 16,585 17,313 28,926
15,536

As a random entry. that's the state, number of assaults, numb of assauits by firearm, by knife/edge, by other, and by personal weapons.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/web/offreported/02-table22.html

Unmatchable

12-25-2003, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by BAI HE
There are plenty of TCMA men who compete:

go to
www.blacktaoist.com, he fights San Shou

www.shenwu.com
They fight MMA and BJJ

Mike Patterson's Xingyi guys at
www.xingyi.com

Look through the fighter profiles in the SanShou world championships, I believe two of the guys train Xingyi.

TaiJi?

Look no further than William CC Chen's son Max.
Numerous San Shou victories and even more impressively, a few Golden Gloves tourney wins.

Not sure where this thread is going, but San Shou is an extension of CMA and qualifies as MMA.
To say TCMA stylists can't or won't fight is rather ridiculous.
Do you think an MMA gym and it's cooperative practices will get you any more fight ready than a hardore traditional school with a full cirriculum?

I think not. Some high level grapplers have proven some things. What have you? You may grapple, are you as good as a Gracie?
I'll take a guy who trains TKD for 5 hrs a day over a mouth boxer who talks crap and struts around like he's walked his talk.

So Unmatchable, why make blanket statements.
If you think TaiJi doesn't work MMA pm "Shooter"? Please test it or do your homework before you start putting others and their training methods down.

Merry Christmas.
Bai.

Tim Cartmell does not fight in official mma nor his students they have a small group sparring competition, usually against each other or biggeners.

Mike Patterson fights in Keoshun (sp?) against other kung fu guys.

San Shou is not mma and it's level of competition is far below Muay Thai yet hardly any CIMA(you mentioned very few examples which anyone can refute) had much success in them. And Black TAoist doesn't list his official record but I'm guessing it's not too great and from the clips I saw it showed not internal principles but mostly brawling (a shenwu student wrote the same thing describing the shenwu tourney).

William CC Chen's son was trained in kixkboxing San Shou (he learned some tai chi but he claimed san shou was the training he used to train for fights and fight).

Shooter fought in some small level (and low level competition) in Canada (lol) using kickboxing and wrestling, shure he might have busted out a cool tai chi move here and there but he was doing kickboxing like every other guy. Ask a guy on this forum called EmptyCup (he's a wing chun guy who trains in mma now) how succesful CMA are in competitions.

Brad

12-25-2003, 11:53 PM

Mike Patterson fights in Keoshun (sp?) against other kung fu guys.
You mean Kuoshu.

San Shou is not mma and it's level of competition is far below Muay Thai
San Shou is MMA in that people from many different styles compete in it(Thai kickboxers, TKD, Wrestling, and so on). San Shou fighters have also done pretty well against fighters from other styles, including Thai Kickboxers and Japanese Karate guys.

And Black TAoist doesn't list his official record but I'm guessing it's not too great and from the clips I saw it showed not internal principles but mostly brawling (a shenwu student wrote the same thing describing the shenwu tourney).
You should really take that up with him :D How much experience in "internal" styles do you actually have?

Shooter fought in some small level (and low level competition) in Canada (lol) using kickboxing and wrestling, shure he might have busted out a cool tai chi move here and there but he was doing kickboxing like every other guy.
Taiji fighters aren't allowed to kick and punch now? BTW, what have you done lately? Do you even know taiji?

BAI HE

12-26-2003, 07:01 AM

"Tim Cartmell does not fight in official mma nor his students they have a small group sparring competition, usually against each other or biggeners."

Tim won at the Copa Pacifica BJJ tourney. Tim has won at the All Taiwans FC tourneys. What have you won?

Mike Patterson fights in Keoshun (sp?) against other kung fu guys.

San Shou is not mma and it's level of competition is far below Muay Thai yet hardly any CIMA(you mentioned very few examples which anyone can refute) had much success in them. And Black TAoist doesn't list his official record but I'm guessing it's not too great and from the clips I saw it showed not internal principles but mostly brawling (a shenwu student wrote the same thing describing the shenwu tourney).

From what I saw of the SanShou World Championships, those guys can really fight. I think their stand up was as good if not
flat out superior to most of the stand up I've seen in many MMA tourneys.
Could you and have you done better.

As far as BT? I'll pencil you in as another anonymous detractor, seeing how nobody ever seems to have the balls to say anything to his face.

"William CC Chen's son was trained in kixkboxing San Shou (he learned some tai chi but he claimed san shou was the training he used to train for fights and fight)."

You train for the particulars of the contest. As far has his root, whole body power and connectivity, how does his SanShou training cover that. Maybe you are implying that the Traditional TaiJi training he does year round has lent nothing to his fighting prowess.

"Shooter fought in some small level (and low level competition) in Canada (lol) using kickboxing and wrestling, shure he might have busted out a cool tai chi move here and there but he was doing kickboxing like every other guy. Ask a guy on this forum called EmptyCup (he's a wing chun guy who trains in mma now) how succesful CMA are in competitions."

Oh so TC can't look like wrestling or striking. What does it look like in combat> Don't know empty cup, don't care enough to ask. So because Empty agrees with you his competitions are high level?

What "level" are you at? Do you qualify for any major tourneys?

Report this post to a moderator

Guandi

12-26-2003, 09:55 AM

----------
"Tim Cartmell does not fight in official mma nor his students they have a small group sparring competition, usually against each other or biggeners."

Tim won at the Copa Pacifica BJJ tourney. Tim has won at the All Taiwans FC tourneys. What have you won?
----------

I think its good to stay with the facts. a BJJ tourney is not a MMA tourney.

winning a tourney does not mean anything .. not unless you know how many participants there were and how many fights someone had to win to win the tourney.

I do not want to say, that tim is not a great fighter, but you have to know more about the tournament otherwise it is not a proof at all.

do you know how many fights tim had to win?

BAI HE

12-26-2003, 10:12 AM

Why? Is quantity more important than quality?
The Cop and the All Taiwan's attract a slew of competitors.
The are rather large recognized tourneys.

Exact numbers? Do your own homework.

Proof?
I have all I need regarding the aforementioned TCMA practitioners. If you don't? Go get your own.

Unmatchable

12-26-2003, 12:21 PM

If it happened it would be on video. And it would be available to download online unless they were hiding something.

And btw Tim Cartmell disgrees with you. On his board he wrote that there are no IMA succesful fighters in mma. Check the xingyi threads. San Shou and bjj is not mma, and there wasn't that much success in them.

Check the thread on the main forum How do you train to become a good fighter: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27292

And read Sevenstar's reply note he doesn't emntion any internal principles but basic mma training.

BAI HE

12-26-2003, 01:34 PM

Sevenstar is a good guy. He's not the end-all-be-all of fight training knowledge. Furthermore, many people have not been exposed to IMA in this country, compared to other arts.
I see you're splitting hairs on the MMA thing, in a sense your right.

As far as Tim Cartmell goes? He can fight standing or on the ground and can mix 'em.
IMO there isn't a guy that posts on this forum MMA or otherwise that could beat him in any phase of H2H under any rules.

Unmatchable

12-26-2003, 01:58 PM

Cool. I'd like to check him out. Have you seen him in action? I'd really like to see a clip of his fights (or sparring).

I'd like to also point out that none of the people you posted as an example trained solely in tai chi (or tai chi being their main style).

bamboo_ leaf

12-26-2003, 03:51 PM

The point is that in any endeavor you your self are responsible for development and testing. I keep hearing the word fighting followed by fighting = some type of sport contest.

Buy a gun learn how to use it, its much more reliable, quicker and makes a bigger impression on most people. Why any one would keep thoughts of their kids, wife, or getting beat up to motivate them for training I don’t know. How dose one maintain this for so many years in their mind ?

What masters are cheating who?
What is it that they supposed to grantee?

Every one seems to be looking for some type of IMA hero, then use that to justify their own practice. It will never work.

The past masters including Master Cheng, found something that worked for them. People followed them hoping to achieve the same understanding. Some did and some didn’t it’s the nature of things.

Even after death people still remember them, and others still try to tarnish their memories. These guys must have been something in their day to remain in all our thoughts for so long. I think the title Master fits them well.

Guandi

12-26-2003, 05:32 PM

>Why? Is quantity more important than quality?<

if you have eg just to win one fight to win the competition in your weight division, then winning the competition is not really a proof. unless the combatant is a recognised fighter.

>Exact numbers? Do your own homework.<

why should I? you gave him as an example, so you should proof, that your example is more worth the the "paper" on wich it is written.

have you first hand experience with tim cartmel?

this is not meant as disrespect to mr cartmel, but I think it is just a fair question to ask what was necessary to win the competition.

Unmatchable

12-26-2003, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
The point is that in any endeavor you your self are responsible for development and testing. I keep hearing the word fighting followed by fighting = some type of sport contest.

Buy a gun learn how to use it, its much more reliable, quicker and makes a bigger impression on most people. Why any one would keep thoughts of their kids, wife, or getting beat up to motivate them for training I don’t know. How dose one maintain this for so many years in their mind ?

What masters are cheating who?
What is it that they supposed to grantee?

Every one seems to be looking for some type of IMA hero, then use that to justify their own practice. It will never work.

The past masters including Master Cheng, found something that worked for them. People followed them hoping to achieve the same understanding. Some did and some didn’t it’s the nature of things.

Even after death people still remember them, and others still try to tarnish their memories. These guys must have been something in their day to remain in all our thoughts for so long. I think the title Master fits them well.

I think if you go out carrying your gun everywhere and use it on first sight of trouble you are a moron, will end up in prison, and could kill someone. If on the other hand you use bjj on them you could tie them up, lock them up, all without them being hurt, call the police, and your done. Bjj is very effective for both the ring and street (that's why Tim Cartmell is learning and teaching it).

People follow and worship Ashida Kim too, does that mean he's a master?

bamboo_ leaf

12-26-2003, 06:34 PM

yep, for them he is.

i dont like guns either, you keep missing points and im tiered of typing.

enjoy the holidays

Shooter

12-26-2003, 09:21 PM

this guy is clueless

end of story

Unmatchable

12-27-2003, 01:12 AM

Ok if I'm so clueless why does the whole site of BUllshido, mma.tv, even most of the main forum on this site (just look at all the mma vs tma threads), most wing chun and jeet kune do people, and basically most of the entire martial art world agree with me?

This is the only fight ive seen of tai chi (the old guy was a grandmaster):
http://www.memphisclubscene.com/NgvsChan.WMV

Unmatchable

12-27-2003, 01:49 AM

Show me a better clip of tai chi in a fight (not forms of men fighting air), Canada is not known for mma in fact most mma competitions are banned in Canada nor is it known for champions. Here is a good quote I just read from the main forum:

Royal Dragon, out of curiosity, do you take drugs? I'm not talking Meat Shake talkin' to Bob type drugs. I mean like hardcore hallucinagenics? If you do, it explains a lot.

If you don't, go to your local MMA or BJJ gym/club and go to open mat, and ask guys to do vale tudo type fighting with you. After you get your a$$ handed to you, explore how this could of happened. Realize that training a certain way is really the only way to gain skill. Even Kung Fu skill. You will also realize that fighting is hard to do. People don't like to get their a$$ kicked, so they will find out ways to defend themselves. In this way, people will not just give in to you because you know kung fu. BJJ practitioners know this, so they train like they fight, and fight like they train. They don't want to lose, and take great pride in that, while at the same time respect other fighters.

So you know, I'm a CMA practitioner. I have a very traditional instuctor. However, since it is a small circle that he trains, I also train at a BJJ/MMA gym. They have the best competition in my area. I respect what they do greatly. Interestingly enough, I have beat guys there in stand up using kung fu. I bet you would call what I do resorting to kick boxing, though. I have been beat before as well. Imagine that! What I try to do, though, is improve what I do. I don't care if what I do looks like anything. I train to make what I do real.

Here is another one:

I was at the Gracie academy during many of the "challenge years" and Jason was, by far, the best kung fu guy to come through there. It was amazing to see most of these guys come in with their entourages of people who swore they had pure lineage’s dating back thousands of years to China, couldn't be taken down, had won all these challenge matches against other kung fu guys, and, basically, were unbeatable. They would warm up doing their fancy forms (which usually looked quite impressive) and then just get smashed in a matter of seconds.

It got to the point to where, instead of fighting one of the Gracies, the challengers would be put up against students with a just a couple years experience to make things a little more fair. Even against the students, I only saw one fight where it was even a close match.

Unmatchable

12-27-2003, 02:48 AM

Another quote from the main forum:

Fine then, you get the benefit of the doubt. Can you direct us to... let's say half as many, say 5 clips of Kung Fu masters applying their principles and techniques in a fight (sport or real). Maybe 5 is too many... How about 4... How about 3... okay how about 2. Surely if there are 10 clips of Kung Fu fighters losing, you can produce a couple of them winning using traditional methods and techniques, right?

the reason I am posting these is to show that most people agree with me.

Sevenstar wrote:

nah, you only have to prove its effectiveness. The thing about competitors is that they respect what you have if you can make it work. Find a MMA that's skeptic about wing chun and beat him. He will most likely try to figure out what you did and what you trained in to get it.
WHich I think applies to IMA nicely. If IMA were so effective than mma curriculum would include push hands and IMA training methods yet it doesn't. So not many if any mma people were beaten by IMA and convinced.

spiralstair

12-27-2003, 09:45 AM

Eventually one gets tired of fighting battles, kickin' but, winning when it involves another losing. It's a young man's game, preoccupation... and there has all ways been much more to IMA than who's best. To MMA? There's nothing else. MMA for health? long life? self development? that's a joke, right? It's always about who's the 'best', technically, martially, and nothing more. Someday the @ss-kicker gets old... and time comes calling...then IMA is still there, real and inside you, and you don't need an 'opponent' to prove its value. MMA when you're old?...a bunch of snapshots on the wall, of what I did back when I was young..

TaiChiBob

12-27-2003, 09:51 AM

Greetings..

The problem is that we let our egos get in the way of our best interests, we try to protect the time we have invested in our training.. but, if that training doesn't pass muster in the test of true combat, common sense says to adjust the training to fit the desired goals...

I am adamant about preserving the traditions of IMA, i am certain of its combat usefulness.. i am equally certain that in the face of the top 10% of world-class MMA fighters IMA alone will suffer greatly.. we stand on our "home turfs" and hurl insults and challenges disergarding the potential to share and grow..

My focus is internal, for many reasons.. but, when i teach fighting i teach techniques based on Taiji principle but borrow from any practical art that can help produce the desired results.. it has been my experience that Taiji can benefit other arts in amazing ways just as they can benefit Taiji.. it is ALL one thing, sequences of movements and techniques designed to provide a valid self-defense.. exclusivity only confines one to limitations within a system..

Preserve the traditions they are "High Art", but if your intent is self-defense, use all available tools (your oponent will)..

Be well...

PS: Stop the Master bashing/worshiping.. its embarrassing..

Shooter

12-27-2003, 12:28 PM

Sport isn't the measure of my TCC. Nor is/was it ever the emphasis for myself or my training partners. It's a training method for proofing the basics of what I practice.

OTOH, all anyone needs to do is search this board for more than enough 'proof' of what the Northern Lights Tai Chi players have accomplished in the ring and on the mat. As much as some would like to ignore or forget the facts, NLTC has represented - no matter what Tim Cartmell, Sevenstar, or anyone else says.

Nuthin to prove, nuthin to gain, nuthin to lose. HA!

Unmatchable

12-27-2003, 01:16 PM

I am really sick of people claiming that in an actual fight, TC looks just like NHB but is actually using TC PRINCIPLES!!! Or, you would see a single whip/double hand strike/neutralizing/etc. here in the fight video, but it's between frames and hence at the moment we lack the technology to see it.
Nearly every grandmaster of TC has brought a book out showing applications of TC, as they believe it should be used in an ACTUAL FIGHT! And guess what, they all involve using TC techniques - And they all look nothing like NHB/MMA fighting.
Look at any style of fighting that has been successful in competition: Boxing - jabs and crosses, BJJ - armbar and RNC, Wrestling - Double leg and single leg. All of these styles use their techniques and prove that they work. TC completely fails to use any of the techniques in it's arsenal, and so Taichiers (and all internal styles) have to claim that any representatives that they have are actually using Neija PRINCIPLES. It really is pathetic, they can't use anything from their style and yet still won't admit that it has serious problems.

Another way of looking at it:
Imagine for a moment that BJJ never rose; imagine that it was found that no BJJ stylist could make any BJJ techniques work in NHB. Then one day, a BJJ stylist goes into the cage, and beats his opponent using what is blatantly western boxing. The practicioner however, claims that it was in fact an advanced usage of BJJ PRINCIPLES! And so BJJ does work after all!
How full of **** would you assume the guy to be? Exactly.

Ah, the idea of the little old Asian dude who can kick everybodies butt. Hmph. Typical Asian MA pseudo mystical clap-trap. And guess what? It's not true.

Hey, I mean, I've met some tough old dudes before. But they were just that... tough OLD dudes. They still would get their butt's kicked by tough young dudes who are in much better shape. Face it, people, there is no old little Chinese dude who could win the UFC. And the idea that there is, is complete bullshido!

Brad

12-27-2003, 02:20 PM

You make absolutely no sense
:confused: Do you understand the difference between princibles and techniques? Wu, Sun, Chen, Yang, and Hao styles of taiji all have different techniques, but are still all taijiquan. Can you tell us why? What you describe isn't pathetic, it's intellegent. You can't be limited to the specific techniqes you're taught. The Gracies wouldn't be who they are today if they'd just copycatted what was taught them. They added a lot of new techniques(and probably re-discovered some old ones) to jujitsu. But it's still jujitsu, because it stays true to the framework of jujitsu. What's really pathetic is idiots like yourself who have some kind of double standard. Have you ever seen taiji and xingyi? Sun style taiji used a follow stepping pattern just like boxers do. Xingyi has contained various boxing like punching combinations for over 100 years. Jabs, hooks, crosses, body shots, knees, elbows, take down defence, throws, thrust kicks, roundhouse kicks, I could point you to a form in CMA that has these in them and is older than any of us. Mr. Ross, our resident San Shou expert, has talked about having(or having read?) Chinese manuals detailing jujitsu like groundfighting dating back to the 1930's long before the Gracies brought groundfighting to the forefront.

GroungJing

12-27-2003, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
yep, for them he is.

i dont like guns either, you keep missing points and im tiered of typing.

enjoy the holidays

Bamboo leaf

Yes he gets it, but to admit it means his whole argument goes down in flames.

It time for me to give it a try.

Unmatchable:

You give off a belief that No holds barred events shed some kind of real light on true martial arts and by competing in these events your seeking the absolute truth. Everyone else is just fooling himself or herself if they don’t do MMA competitions.

Unmatchable

Are we really listening?

The UFC Octagon (your holy church of truth) doesn’t represent squat in the real world. When a dumpy man from Texas would be the last man standing in a bout with your four best UFC champs. What does this mean to the “truth” of your beloved MMA?

And it’s all because that dumpy man was packing some lead. (and was highly trained with said object) You can train in your MMA arts all day long and in the end you are in the same boat as us.
That’s the truth, like it or not, believe it or not However, if you don’t believe it, now who is being a poser?

In the modern age in which we live in, your tuff guy heroes are pretty small. Colt created man equal, not god and Bowie came before! Get it...yea you do, but you won't admit that. Then you would have to admit your posing like the rest of us. (accoding to you)

Now whom are you fooling? Not me, nor Bamboo-leaf.

Have you ever bounced at a bar? Bouncing is neither glamorous nor cool and is extremely dangerous not to mention very stupid.
Did I mention the pay sucks? Just how old are you anyway?

To answer some of the age old agruements you put forth.
When is the last time a rapist thought about raping a woman with her husband around? Ah...maybe next to never......Please don't advicate women should grapple with a rapist....that's crap! No matter what kind of Jujistu training......please....

According to your view of MMA training, you think he's not going to have a weapon on him, right? Smacks of posing and dancing…. doesn’t it?
Or
Are you really planning to grapple with a guy with a knife or worst yet ......a gun? Could you be that stupid. Again sounds like your posing and pretending.

Logic dictates, if your training in martial arts to defend yourself on the street, wouldn’t it be easier and much more effective to train with a gun or knife? Certainly would be more truthful way of training wouldn’t it? Isn’t the MMA Octagon all about seeking the truth? Are you not shedding light on all of us pretenders out here? So why not forgo the tuff guy MMA stuff for some real small arms and tactical knife training? Because if your not, then you’re posing and pretending just like the rest of us. Right?

Right?

Truth hurts…. doesn’t it?

Chances are when faced with a real threat it's going to be a weapon-wielding nut. Of course most MMA drooling tuff guys on the net envision some drunken goober at a bar drunk giving the eyeball to his girl. Then he proceeds to stand up and call the guy out in the parking lot. Oooh how tuff! Where's the threat? Where's the real danger? What a bunch of crap, your about as in danger as in a backyard high school party brawl.

I never heard of a mugger using a grappling technique to take your wallet. I've never heard of a rapist using an arm bar to force women into a vehicle. Last time I checked, street thugs don’t conveniently come alone where you can afford to moan and groan horizontally with him in a parking lot. For the record I train with small arms and tactical knife fighting. Yet, I too practice Taijiquan and yea I take it very seriously, I don't look at what others do as somehow fooling themselves. I don't look at others as less macho or cool than I.

However, since you seem intent on telling me and others on this news group just how weak and meaningless are training is, I thought a shed some light on just how weak your own MMA training is. This is the modern age buddy, you can say what you want, but unless you understand the role of the firearm or knife and just how vulnerable your butt is someone like me, who knows how to use said objects, you’re training is weak! And you are posing and dancing just like the rest of us (supposedly, implied by you of course)

And as some way of trying to weasel out of the corner you have painted yourself in, please don't try to tell me that you have trained in tactical firearms or knife fighting, because if you had, then we certainly wouldn’t be listening to your chin music about how absolute your MMA arts are.

Go back to your mat and stew on what I just said.

And remember

"Tuff is relative to the last bullet in a 45 cal"

P.S.

At least most real Taijiquan teachers teach, “Know your limitation.” I have yet to hear anything like this from the MMA crowd.

BAI HE

12-27-2003, 08:44 PM

Wow. We've been having his same conversation for six years now.

Spiral - Great post. We're on the same page, maybe people in Boston make too much sense, Maybe we dink too much...

"Look at any style of fighting that has been successful in competition: Boxing - jabs and crosses, BJJ - armbar and RNC, Wrestling - Double leg and single leg."

Boxing - I have two friends who fight and have fought professionally. Not amateur not "I go to club" blah, blah, blah...
At ny level? They would probablly still beat me. My older KF brothers? Better get a spatula for my old friends.

Wrestling? -
I have a good friend who wrestled NCAA. He's dislocated my shoulder twice (Karate days) I also put him down a few times.

Single and double leg takedowns? Did you watch the olympic and national team trials this year? The leg takedowns worked in about one of ten matches, People didn't even sprawl against the shoot the just bulled forward through the shooter's center.

"ll of these styles use their techniques and prove that they work."

In the ring.

"TC completely fails to use any of the techniques in it's arsenal, and so Taichiers (and all internal styles) have to claim that any representatives that they have are actually using Neija PRINCIPLES. It really is pathetic, they can't use anything from their style and yet still won't admit that it has serious problems.

The arts weren't designed for the ring. There are many good NeiJa teachers and exponents throughout the country. I'm sorry you've had a bad experience. If you'd like feel free to pm me and I'll find either a competent teacher in your area or post upcoming seminars so that you can learn to learn before you dismiss these arts.

BTW - The only thing here that is pathetic is you. Especialy if you don't PM me and take advantage of my generous offer.

BAI HE

12-27-2003, 08:59 PM

Actually-

I retract my BTW comment. being how Unmatchable has been fairly polite. He's noy "pathetic" just merely has many questions to which there are no easy answers , nor polite ways to ask.

Unmatchable

12-27-2003, 11:43 PM

I haven't trained mma besides some Muay Thai and judo but alot of mma people on forums say that they don't advocate fighting someone with a knife or a gun unless they themselves have weapons. Or running is the best option. If you look at most fights or sparring matches they end up in a clinch (just look at boxing) and the ground so bjj and standup grappling like Muay Thai or Judo is useful for street.

It's interesting how you refer to Tim Cartmell when defending Neija but reading his forum he disagrees with your views. He stated that he likes sport fighting and holds mma fighters in high regard.

Most bouncers work in groups and usually have to deal with drunks who aren't fighting back or resisting full force.

If a woman is being raped on the ground, ground grappling is the only thing IMO that could save her besides having a knife or a gun on her.

Tank Abbot trained in boxing and wrestling, he an wasn't untrained brawler like he claimed he was. And Tank Abbot was never a UFC champ he did well in his younger days and early days of the UFC but can't stand a chance against today's athletes (Frank Shamrock requested sport fighters to be called athletes not martial artists).

I heard from mma guys (on this forum mostly) that they will use any technique that works, they aren't bound by styles and there is no such thing as style in that venue anymore but fighting strategies, and training methods that produce success in the ring.

If more Neija guys would at least spar with their students and video tape it and it would look incredibly cool and superior to kixkboxing method of combat (or at least different) than we probably wouldn't be having this debate. I mean it's not that hard to do. Find a guy willing to spar you and video tape it than post it on the internet. If you look at the emptyflower clips of bagua fights you will see they aren't very spectatular and they resort to brawling, that's how most of Neija sparring clips that are available on the internet and that I saw look like. WHy alot of people hold Muay Thai and boxing in high regard is because they don't resort to brawling as much, a competend boxer/kickboxer will use straights, jabs, crosses, knees, etc. and not swing their whole body and throw haymakers like an untrained guy.

GroungJing

12-28-2003, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Unmatchable
I haven't trained mma besides some Muay Thai and judo but alot of mma people on forums say that they don't advocate fighting someone with a knife or a gun unless they themselves have weapons. Or running is the best option. If you look at most fights or sparring matches they end up in a clinch (just look at boxing) and the ground so bjj and standup grappling like Muay Thai or Judo is useful for street.

It's interesting how you refer to Tim Cartmell when defending Neija but reading his forum he disagrees with your views. He stated that he likes sport fighting and holds mma fighters in high regard.

Most bouncers work in groups and usually have to deal with drunks who aren't fighting back or resisting full force.

If a woman is being raped on the ground, ground grappling is the only thing IMO that could save her besides having a knife or a gun on her.

Tank Abbot trained in boxing and wrestling, he an wasn't untrained brawler like he claimed he was. And Tank Abbot was never a UFC champ he did well in his younger days and early days of the UFC but can't stand a chance against today's athletes (Frank Shamrock requested sport fighters to be called athletes not martial artists).

I heard from mma guys (on this forum mostly) that they will use any technique that works, they aren't bound by styles and there is no such thing as style in that venue anymore but fighting strategies, and training methods that produce success in the ring.

If more Neija guys would at least spar with their students and video tape it and it would look incredibly cool and superior to kixkboxing method of combat (or at least different) than we probably wouldn't be having this debate. I mean it's not that hard to do. Find a guy willing to spar you and video tape it than post it on the internet. If you look at the emptyflower clips of bagua fights you will see they aren't very spectatular and they resort to brawling, that's how most of Neija sparring clips that are available on the internet and that I saw look like. WHy alot of people hold Muay Thai and boxing in high regard is because they don't resort to brawling as much, a competend boxer/kickboxer will use straights, jabs, crosses, knees, etc. and not swing their whole body and throw haymakers like an untrained guy.

Nice side step

Again your still obsessed with the “My hand to Hand combat style is better than yours stuff!”

What crap!

Is this really getting you anywhere?

Sorry to disappoint you, but in most tactical arms clubs, hand to hand is all seen as just a secondary back up system. In fact in most combat arms clubs your MMA arts scene is laughed at, because your failure to get up and run. I’ve never heard from any of the UFC crowd that running away was the right thing to do.
Its all been to ground and pound.....tuff guy stuff.

If your running away from bullets and knives, what makes you any different than the rest of us?

How does it feel to be one of us IMA pretenders?

You can come here at attempt to set us straight on what you feel (notice I don’t use the word "know") is the real way of doing things. However, know that someone trained in modern day weapons is looking at you the same way your looking at us. They are asking the same question about your MMA that you ask us about IMA.

For example:

Show us an example where a man grappled his way out of a gunfight?

Show us an example where a MMA defeated an experienced knife fighter.

Since these have happened only in extreme and rare cases, I guess according to your logic MMA arts are no good too.

Right?

“Denial is to you as Martial is to art “

Don’t let this become your motto

Brad

12-28-2003, 11:07 AM

Thought about mentioning this before, but completely forgot... A little off topic, but I talked to my uncle who was an ex-army and special forces guy(long time ago). He talked to me a bit about his hand to hand combat training back in the day. Basically he learned 5 basic Karate techniques that have done well for him in every altercation he's ever had. Basically in a real life fight you don't need to know alot. Being a really great fighter doesn't mean a whole lot anymore. You can get by pretty well just being average.

Unmatchable, sorry I called you pathetic... I think I've said a lot of the same things you did to someone at some point too ;)

Unmatchable

12-28-2003, 12:25 PM

Here is an article I found by Matt Thornton(smartmonkey) it talks about weapons and such:

The problems with a "streetfighter" mindset.
I'd like to talk about the distinctions between an athletic training model and mindset, and a "streetfighting" model and mindset. And I do believe it's important for a number of reasons to make a certain distinction between the two. That distinction, and the reasons why it's a healthy one to make, are what this thread is about.

We need to be very, very clear as to the content of what's being discussed. When we began talking about differences in approaches to anything there is potential for people to take such discussions on a personal level, due to lack of understanding regarding the conversation, or a previous personal agenda, etc. Nothing in the below written posts is personal, period.

If you DON'T find the distinctions to be true in your own case then there is obviously no reason to view them as personal. And if you DO find that some of the ideas may hit close to home, then it's also a very positive thing, and a chance for learning. So in either case the ideas presented below should be seen as the laying out of a roadmap that is intended to bring positive results into peoples lives. But in either case nothing being written or spoken is about a specific persona, on any level.

Secondly, discussing different mentalities in training and life is never an either or proposition. Although that may seem obvious, many people have trouble with that concept so it's always best to lay it out front of the discussion.

When it comes to "street" training, combatives, or RBSD, there seems to exist a fallacious argument. The old street" versus "sport" training argument. The false premise being it must be one or the other, that the training methods are mutually exclusive.

This is not only an incorrect assumption; it also goes against the long and colorful history of American "combatives" or "self defense" Instructors, of previous eras. A brief look into their backgrounds, and minimum amount of research will tell the tale.

In addition, anyone with even a minor bit of information about SBGi knows we offer many RBSD programs. Including programs for Law Enforcement, and including all possible "foul" tactics, and their functional counters. So again, to suggest anything written below paints ALL Instructors who teach RBSD in a particular light is simply not logical, nor factual.

Finally, the politics and gossip of Martial Arts holds zero interest for me, or I think anyone in our Organization. But if you do have any personal issues, feel free to contact me direct, or in person. It's the approach I take, and the one that is always the most appropriate. As for discussions online, they should always be kept to training methods and ideas.

Now there are two separate issues with reality based self defense.

The first is functionality. And as people will be theoretically relying on the information and training offered to save their life, or the lives of others, this point is critical. There are a ton myths offered when it comes to self defense and 'streetfighting'. Some of these seem harmless, and may be when it's simply two adolescents or grown men getting together to click sticks, or memorize patterns.

But when it comes to people who may actually need to use such information, police officers, etc, in order to be able to go home to their family safely at night, such misinformation, and perpetuation of myths can be deadly. So functionality in what is being taught is critical in RBSD.

When it comes to weapons this was addressed to a degree in the previous posts here:
Regards the stick fighting, to actually be able to fight with a stick one would have to start by throwing out the majority of the "Kali" that is typically taught, and almost all the 'drills', which are little more then two man Kata which teach one what not to do. And even then, left with functional, powerful strikes, and realistic methods of defense, the ground will still often occur, and ko's will not always be easy.

As far as defending against a knife, again it can be, and is done. But one would have to throw out the majority of the "Kali" empty hand tapi-tapi type drills taught, and go to a control position such as offered by Karl in the STAB program, Jerry with the RedZone, and Burton's two on 1 baseball grip variations.

Coincidentally I had a conversation yesterday regarding a police officer who had been stabbed multiple times by large mental patient on a call a few days ago. Apparently the officer is ok, but he was surprised to relate that he didn't realize his opponent even had a knife until he had been stuck several times, because to him at that time it felt like 'a minor strike'. That seems to be fairly typical. It also has to be why they attack the way they do with a shank in prison. . .having realized this reality a LONG time ago.

On a positive note that department will now be working STAB with Paul Sharp.

In Jerry Wetzel's Red Zone video there is a great section where Jerry's wife, who is a practicing MD, goes into detail regarding the bodies actual process for going into shock. And much of the mythology of knife fighting is cleared up there as well. I'd highly recommend that video for anyone serious on this subject.

Another good example that clearly demonstrates these ideas are written in our street vs sports section at the website: www.straightblastgym.com

"One happened about a year ago, I'm walking up to a father/son domestic when the son steps out onto the porch where dad is sitting on the stoop and hits dad full tilt with a golf club dead on in the throat. Dad does a weird squeal and jumps up, pulls knife and goes after the kid. What was that acronym about throat-eyes-solar plexus-nads-knees?

Somebody should have told those guy's when you get hit in a pressure point you go down no questions asked...."

So it's obvious that there is a lot of mythology when it comes to RBSD, particularly (but not exclusive to) the JKD family. And although it may seem harmless enough, when it comes to serious issues, such as Law Enforcement or personal self defense, it's anything but harmless.
However, there is another, deeper, issue I would like to talk about that I feel is even more important when it comes to this subject.

The most important point in my opinion is the mind set that exists behind the eyes of someone who finds themselves attracted to the entire "streetfighting", biting, killer instinct, paradigm that exists, and is marketed to with some instructors. If one looks honestly at it then it becomes pretty obvious that it is really about fear, paranoia, insecurity, and personal guilt.

What does that statement mean?

It's very simple. If you market yourself, your school, or your products as a "streetfighting" system, then a certain group of individuals will find themselves drawn to that product for a variety of reasons. Many of which are unhealthy.

Does that sentence mean all Instructors who teach such things are filled with fear, paranoia, insecurity, and personal guilt!?

Of course not.

Does that mean that ALL RBSD schools cater to such cliental?

Of course not.

Does that mean everyone drawn to such marketing is similar to the people described above?

Of course not.

Let me insert a section of an article by me that was written for realfighting.com on this very subject that I believe explains what the above sentence means very clearly.

(Psychological fear is a completely different animal, and sadly it is incredibly common within the "combatives", or modern self-defense crowds. Psychological fear is actually a form of paranoia, and it's created by one's internal fears of inadequacy on either a physical, emotional, or mental level. When a male (in particular) thinks himself to be inadequate there is a strong feeling of sadness and anger. And just as aggression is the other side of the same coin as fear, sadness is the other side of the same coin as anger. If one doesn't address this internal sadness in a very real way then it will often manifest itself in the form of anger. I think as males we are more prone to adopt and embrace the anger, at least within our public persona, as opposed to the sadness, because for some misguided reason we have been taught that anger is more "masculine" then it's equal, sadness.

Unmatchable

12-28-2003, 12:28 PM

functional nature, and mandatory testing of all our tactics, techniques, and delivery systems. It's not open to speculation.
So what's the point of bringing this subject up?

Simple, because I have found that the same types of people who (may often) be drawn to more violent, "streetfighting" type images, will actually make great leaps in personal development and well being when they switch to a healthier athletic format, and simply let go of the whole 'killer' instinct, bite, kill 'image/mentality'.

I remember a seminar Years ago where Rickson Gracie was asked this exact same thing about eye gouging and the "street". He related that although he had to fight in the street and defend himself many times as he was growing up in Brazil, that even thinking about gouging peoples eyeballs, or biting them, is not something he would ever want to start doing. The thought itself is unhealthy to a human, and Jiu-Jitsu is supposed to be about health and well being.

I couldn't agree more.

I am also sometimes asked by RBSD Instructors why we don't place a heavy emphasis on advertising the "streetfighting", or RBSD aspects of what we do, if in deed we do train this way at our Gyms. (The fact that we do train for self defense becomes self evident to anyone who ever trains at any of our Gyms) . The answer is we do market that way when it's appropriate, but we choose not to emphasize that aspect to the public at large for the reasons listed in this article.

The athletic mentality, method, and mindset, is HEALTHIER for all human beings. And it's also more functional on a very practical level. It's healthier for adults, it's better for children, and it's just better for human beings in general.

Especially in terms of mental well being.

And this is why we steer people into that area whenever possible.

For those interested here is the complete article on Awareness and self defense that was written for www.realfighting.com
Awareness Versus Paranoia, the Realities of Self Defense Training

By Matt Thornton

There seems to be an ongoing debate in Martial Arts circles these that can be summed up in the sentence, "street" versus "sport" training. The false premise being it must be one or the other, that the training methods are mutually exclusive. This is not only an incorrect assumption; it also goes against the long and colorful history of American "combatives" or "self defense" Instructors, of previous eras. A brief look into their backgrounds, and minimum amount of research will tell the tale.

So setting aside that false argument for a moment, I would like to address the most important topic related to real world self-defense, the topic of awareness.

When I teach people specific topics related to civilian "self-defense" I generally base my teaching on a simple progression I call the ABC's of self-defense. The A stands for awareness, and is by far the most important aspect of the teaching. Awareness as I am defining it is the broad based clear realization of your environment, and surroundings, as it is brought to your body by all five senses. Knowing where you are, and what's around you at all times. At first glance this seems like a very simple idea, but it is in reality the most difficult aspect of self-defense training, with the 'pre' physical confrontation (what many are now calling the "psychological" aspects of self defense), and the actual physical skills of fighting, being a very distant second in importance.

"What makes this needed awareness difficult is first and foremost our own minds."

We are often proud, so we don't bother checking with local authorities regarding our geography. Or worse yet, we feel aggressive, which is a form of fear, and purposely place ourselves in situations we shouldn't be. We place ourselves in situations where we know we may receive an invitation to hurt another human being. This subconscious motive is common with those that like to "bar" fight. Or the half-wit that upon first receiving his concealed weapons permits begins driving through tough neighborhoods within his city. And it's worth noting that those, which find themselves attracted to such situations, or people, are usually the weakest members of human society. Both intellectually, emotionally, and to a degree, physically.

"We often feel paranoid, so we create an atmosphere around us that attracts predators, and fellow victims of paranoia seeking to measure their fear, and misery against ours. "

We are most often distracted with random and uncontrollable thoughts of our relationships, jobs, finances, and our own personal judgments regarding how we feel things should be, or not be, and this makes us oblivious to so much of what is going on around us within our field of awareness.

All of these states, pride, aggression, paranoia, and confusion, create a mind that is unable to read its surroundings well, and invites dangerous situations that could otherwise be avoided. They narrow the field of awareness to a great extent. So our first goal in cultivating this real world awareness should be to broaden that field, to expand it, and allow us to fully process all that occurs within our vicinity. To do this we need to attack each of these states step by step.

Let's start with pride. My job is self-defense, martial arts, and combat athletics; it's all I do for a living. This affords me more time then the average person has when it comes to daily training. It keeps my body in reasonable athletic shape, beyond what most 'normal' people have within our society. And it has given me a certain amount of skill when it comes to fighting within all ranges. In the course of working towards my black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu I have wrestled thousands of opponents to submission. Some bigger and stronger, some faster, some younger, over and over. This is nothing special, it's simply the process required to gain real world skill in any delivery system of combat.
Having said all that there are still many places I will not wander, unless I had to, within this world. One clear example is South Africa. I have visited South Africa on many occasions. And depending on the statistics you read, Johannesburg may be the homicide capitol of the world. For those that think they come from a tough neighborhood in the USA, an evening stroll through a South African township may quickly bring that measurement into perspective. Before my last trip I was approached by a modern "combatives", or self-defense Instructor within the USA who is quite well known. He was offering what he felt was helpful advice by telling me what firearms I should carry while there, what clipit knife I should have on my person, and relating to me all the latest violent crime, and car jacking stats from the local.

Then he asked "what do you carry while you are there?" When I informed him I usually don't carry any form of weapons, be they blades or guns, he looked quite shocked. "How can you be in a place like that and not be armed man?" My answer was, I am with people who know where to go. It's as simple as that. I have a 140lb Portuguese driver named Nuno, who is quite good at keeping us out of places we shouldn't be, when we shouldn't be there. He grew up in Joberg, and knows the area very well.

The worst thing I could possibly do is believe that because of my job, and the amount of weapons I am carrying on my person, I could wander the city as I see fit. That would be pride, and or stupidity, of the worse kind. And even if I were to survive such an encounter, and in the process wind up hurting people, what have I really gained?

"Know where you are at, and when you should be there, and if you are not from there, find someone who is, and listen to them!"

Aggression is another state all together. The first thing I try to explain is that aggression when it is unwarranted is simply another manifestation of fear. We need to understand that aggression and fear are one and the same quality. Two ends of the same stick, or two halves of the same coin, if you will. They are not only the same, they are inseparable. When it's aggression that is manifesting itself in non-appropriate ways, such as the examples above of the "bar" fighter, or the concealed weapons holder who puts himself in dangerous situations, then it's actually the fear that is being manifest. So we need to address that issue, the big issue of martial arts as I see it, the issue of fear.

I am asked a lot about fear when I teach seminars. And the subject of fear is an important one for anyone interested in pursuing martial arts, or self-defense. The first thing we need to do when we talk about fear is separate what I call "psychological" fear, which is self created, and what I call "body" fear, which is dependent on external circumstances.

Body fear is the body's own natural response to danger. It's normal, healthy, and needed. The simple example is the two men in the military told to charge a machine gun nest. One charges the nest, and is branded a hero. One refuses to move, and is branded a coward. However, the important point is that physically both men felt the exact same thing. This feeling the body gets is the natural response to a very real physical threat, and it should be viewed as an aid, and not a foe.
Another clear example of body fear comes in the form of what people often call 'intuition'. A term I prefer is "gut" instinct. This is a great term because it aptly describes the body's actual feeling when danger comes close…a stirring in the gut, (stomach area). The work of Gavin De Becker brings this information to light in a very accessible way. The nanny that gives the mother an "uneasy" feeling.

GroungJing

12-28-2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by Unmatchable
You asked when has a mma guy defended himself against a knife, gun, etc. So I'll ask you when has a IMA guy defended himself against a gun, knife, etc. (not stories of old masters which were made up bvut actually caught on video and in modern times).

Recently, a deranged Japanese man armed with a knife went on a rampage cutting and slashing innocent bystanders for no apparent reason. One of his victims was a professional K-1 fighter, Genki Sudo. Genki Sudo fled the attack instead of confronting his attacker.

Archangel smacked the correct on this thread:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=430018#post430018

Again, another nice side step

Are you not forgetting an all-important detail.

Others and I never trashed MMA. You started it by being sly and coy with your assumptions on IMA.

By asking me to name an IMA’er who had defended himself against a knife attack, again you hope to play the “my art is superior than your art” bag of tricks/

GIVE IT UP!!!

I’m just showing you MMA art's are no different from any other hand-to-hand form including IMA's to a gun or any other real weapon carrying opponent!

AND YOU CAN”T HANDLE IT!!!

You’re just like us (IMA guys) in the end.

AGAIN, YOU CAN”T HANDLE IT! Your super huge ego post smacks of it!

Sucks doesn’t it?

IT SUCKS to realize you have been posing like the rest of us.

You wrote:

You asked when has a mma guy defended himself against a knife, gun, etc. So I'll ask you when has a IMA guy defended himself against a gun, knife, etc. (not stories of old masters which were made up bvut actually caught on video and in modern times).

Recently, a deranged Japanese man armed with a knife went on a rampage cutting and slashing innocent bystanders for no apparent reason. One of his victims was a professional K-1 fighter, Genki Sudo. Genki Sudo fled the attack instead of confronting his attacker.

End quote:

And the guy was deranged? Do you have any idea how fast a person who knows what he/she is doing with a knife or gun can kill you?

Blink....... Your dead!

To grapple with him'her is to hasten to your death!

Yea that professional K-1 fighter, Genki Sudo ran like everyone else, He's a professional athlete, not a trained professional. What does that tell you!

Of course your still saying in the back of your mind he’s not Ken Shamrock. Shamrock would have taken the guy out with a figure four-leg lock!

Why else would you ask me to name a IMA guy that defended against a knife attack?

Against an experienced tactical knife fighter Ken Shamrock wouldn’t stand much of a chance without picking up a weapon himself. Of course he’s not really shoot fighting at this point is he now?

Nor would we be doing an IMA (unless someone was trained in a classical weapon like a staff, sword or knife)

But that's not really in a MMA bag of tricks is it, to play with shinny toys?

Na.....

Dare I say it, “Ken Shamrock would be in a smaller boat than the rest of us IMA'ers

How preposterous!!!!!!!!

Are you getting it now?

Will you ever get it!

Yea you got it way back when Bammbo leaf laid it out for you. Your just unwilling to let go with your macho notion that MMA's is better than IMA's. When it really makes no difference at all.

Would it crush your ego and make you change your name?

To guys who train with guns and real weapons MMA is just a bunch of posing!

Period!!! End of story!!!!!

Understand this and take this into scope with what your implying about IMA's!!!!

But I said all this before (several times now) and yet you try to deny it or are not willing to accept the fact someone out there is saying the same crap about your beloved MMA's and has the goods to back it up.

I'm done

Finished!!!

I've shown your arguments to be just what they are (and every other MMA wanna be’s view on traditional martial arts including IMA's)

Bunch of POWER BOASTING

NOTHING BUT……………………..

UNADULTERATED PURE POWER BOASTING!!!!!

LOL

LOL

LOL...............

Syd

12-28-2003, 09:05 PM

name an IMA’er who had defended himself against a knife attack,

Actually, Erle Montaigue, on not one, but three different ocassions. He doesn't brag about it but if you e-mail him politely he might tell you the circumstances in detail. Erle trains knife fighting and also trains how to deal with knife attacks, I believe his direct experience lends credence to his methods.

I would like to add that IMA'ers shouldn't be discouraged when grapplers enter an IMA forum and begin asking for the latest IMA victory of note and stating without evidence or proof then IMA is ineffective. You can believe that Grapplers have the same doubts and arguments/debates and discussions regarding their own art also. Only this is usually about effectiveness outside the ring. After reading through some JJ forums I am convinced that they are no different to any of us. We all want to know that out art is effective in the street and not just in our heads. The only way to ensure this is to remain humble and train for every eventuality.

Syd

12-29-2003, 12:43 AM

Erle lying? Well he has the scars to prove it. He also trains law enforcement not just in Australia but in European countries when he travels, and discusses his very real battle with knife attack basing many of his training techniques on mistakes made under attack. If you conveniently choose to claim he's lying well more power to your agenda.

It's always interesting to hear from an expert...

From Chin Na in Groundfighting by author Al Arsenault...

"...By cross training they often managed to obscure the boundaries between pure styles for the sake of survival in the octagon (UFC). The winners were often groundfighters who learned to cross train in striking arts. Losers went back to learn some groundfighting. So, is groundfighting the ultimate fighting form? Not so, if you change the rules to two or three opponents on one, for example. How would a person who knew only about groundfighting do in a swarming? In this domain the strikers would do better than the grappler. A police officer is better to use Chin Na to seize and control his opponent in a hostile invironment (potential for other assailents) as opposed to going to ground to gain control."

Al Arsenault has over 24 years as Vancouver Police Officer and is a 5th Degree Black Belt in Sanshou Dao and a Black Belt in Judo.

In my own school of Taijiquan the rule of thumb is never go to ground and the idea behind most if not all movements in Taijiquan assumes more than one attacker. As a result of this I have started exploring and integrating the Chin Na and groundfighting techniques from other arts. Throwing and Shuaijiao that is inherent in Taijiquan is something I am already training in order to prepare for any possible groundfighting circumstances.

I think remaining true to Taiji principles and cross training and integrating groundfighting is optimal, infact cross training for stand up encounters and ground fighting seems to be the best option all round. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that Groundfighting and grappling is the be all and end all. And don't think that ring fighting is a true representation of what real fighting (outside in the dirty parking lot or freeway underpass) is all about.... it is a sport, end of story.

PHILBERT

12-29-2003, 01:18 AM

Hey guys, stop bashing one another.

Unmatchable

12-29-2003, 01:23 AM

If you're fighting 2 or 3 opponents your gonna lose no matter what. If they are fighting full force and aren't some pencil neck geeks. It's very hard to ko somebody so they will keep fighting you until it goes to the ground.

I never said Erle is lying I said he could be, anyon could have scars for other reasons and how do you know he himself didn't have a knife or a weapon at the time?

PHILBERT

12-29-2003, 01:34 AM

Unmatchable, thats a load of crap. You can fight 2 or 3 opponents and win. There is a popular video on the net of a pro skate boarder who beat up 4 guys at once because all 4 of them were too big of sissies to fight back despite they outnumbered him. I've seen other fight videos online of 1 vs 3 and the 1 wins.

jun_erh

12-29-2003, 12:54 PM

mike vallely and he is a badass

Unmatchable

12-29-2003, 01:22 PM

I was talking about 2 or 3 guys that really want to fight you without holding back. Mike Vasely was fighting a few pencil neck kids who didn't really fight back or want to fight.

TaiChiBob

12-29-2003, 01:34 PM

Greetings..

In the street it's called Fighting.. not Taiji, not Kung Fu, not Muay Thai, not NHB.. and, what wins is what works.. If you intend to take it to the street you would be well advised to cross-train.. keep your favorite style, but have a working knowledge of as much as you can.. the problem is emotional attachments to one's favorite style, disregarding the common-sense needed to survive in an actual street confrontation..

Taiji is my foundation, my first response.. but, i will use whatever i can to preserve my health and life.. Taiji is a great martial art and it is so much more, i will never discard my passion for Taiji, but i will use ALL of my training when necessary...

The last place you want to be is on the ground with multiple attackers...

Be well...

PHILBERT

12-29-2003, 02:34 PM

Unmatchable, still does not matter. If you know how to fight, and they don't, you can defeat them even if they want to fight you. Sure it will be much more difficult, but it is not impossible.

Unmatchable

12-29-2003, 04:49 PM

taichibob is correct. However to present the other side of the coin, you often have traditional practitioners wanting you to believe that H2H combat was a primary means of deciding battles, when in fact it generally took a seat behind horsemanship, archery, etc. It was tertiary at best. Some would go as far to make you think the Mongols wrestled their way through Asia.

btw, If they're even decent with the blade, you won't have to worry about running, because you'll never see it coming.

Pork Chop

12-30-2003, 08:58 AM

Interesting thread; given me something to read on a slow day at work.

I'm not too much of a taiji guy, just learned the wushu competition forms and competed when I was in my late teens. Was learning traditional hsing yi at the same time from the same guy, so go figure. Been doing mostly external stuff and san shou since then.

Just thought I'd chime in where I saw some stuff.

-----

In san shou, some techniques are straight taiji techniques (not just principles), so I don't agree with Unmatchable's point that you're getting up there saying you're doing taiji, but bust out with some boxing.

If you're curious; the techniques I saw that were straight taiji included:

High roundhouse kick catch- (the one where the close arm covers while the far arm scoops under) is as close to "wave hands through clouds" as I could ever ask for.

Low roundhouse kick catch- (the one where the close arm traps the leg to the thigh that was just kicked, while the other arm punches to the face & attempts to break the other guy's balance) is a "brush knee push" for a sport that doesn't allow open palms.

There's at least one straight punch in the forms I learned.

Fireman's carry is just a variation on "snake creeps through grass".

Someone was saying "needle to sea bottom" translates well to a san shou single leg (where you try not to let the knee touch the ground); but not sure about that one.

I could also see ward off translating to a kick catch with a sweep or leg trap.

------

The question basically becomes "what should it look like?". I have always believed applications should be utilitarian, sometimes differing from the forms- which sometimes contain flowery exaggerations to make the movement easier to understand.

I think too many movies lead people to expect that kung fu people fight out of poses, when the majority of kung fu guys in the day probably fought out of something we'd recognize as a guard. Big movements in forms reduced to small movements in the clinch.

-----

I REALLY don't understand the gun/reality fighting angle. Trying to figure out whether your hand to hand works against other hand to hand is a valid question and to me is not negated by the inclusion of non-hand-to-hand elements into the mix.

If anything the whole "chaos of the reality situation" seems to be an argument for fighting INSIDE a ring, not OUTSIDE it.

-----

MMA matches have rulesets that allow a much higher percentage of kung fu techniques than boxing, kickboxing, san shou, or even kuoshu; so the question there is not really "why aren't kung fu people dominating?" but really "why aren't kung fu people even trying?".

Anybody who steps up is usually shot down as "not kung fu" (usually for good reason) by people who don't seem to want to take the time from making invincibility claims for some 300 year old master in order to prepare someone to compete. Makes you wonder if something else is going on (hence my current dilemma of wanting to leave my kung fu school).

Win or lose, fighters HAVE earned respect; some gaining notoriety for a valiant effort, so the fear of not wanting to lose any business from a loss isn't making much sense either.

-----

Think both sides in this argument have some valid points and some views that i have serious issues with.

I haven't heard of a single kung fu master from the old days (not today's "i publish a book therefor i'm a famous, uberskilled master) that was highly regarded without ever having fought. I'm not even talking about life-or-death, bandits-raiding-the-village type of situation; but olden day challenge matches with *gasp* an accepted & agreed upon set of rules.

The founder of my last/current style fought 20 some-odd people in a (full contact) tournament style competition & came out the winner. The style before that, all the masters in the lineage had famous stories of challenge matches. I don't think I should sit back on their laurels; but I should try to emulate their prowess myself.

With the safety measures available these days, and the sporting atmosphere free of revenge and litigation (for the most part); it doesn't make sense why someone in kung fu would only fight people in their own school, waiting around for that once-in-a-lifetime life-or-death situation, and occasionally strapping on the foam booties to go play pu$$y tag at the local ego-fest/ tournament. Instead kung fu people should be like the Thais, fighting all the time, 70 or 80 fights, getting good at (h2h) fighting, cuz now it's safe to do so.

After seeing guys like those Team Paul Mitchell people & the XMA folks, I want as little to do with public exhibition of forms as possible. I can see forms as a good learning tool; but they should be a personal thing and not a way to rate skill. If you're going to compare martial ability, do it in a ring, not with super light twangy broadswords, cartwheels, and screaming for the sheer heck of it. Otherwise, it just becomes "martial influenced performance art".

And there's NO reason kung fu people shouldn't branch out and play with guys from Dog Brothers, SCA, FMAists, fencers, and other weapons people.

-----

Anybody referencing Genki Sudo's K1 technique as proof of anything needs to be shot. The dude's as unorthodox as they come, which is why we love him. The guy breakdances DURING the fight for chrissakes.

-----

Anyway, I'll get off the soap box now. Not trying to rant or lecture, just want to share my views.

GroungJing

12-30-2003, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by Unmatchable

btw, If they're even decent with the blade, you won't have to worry about running, because you'll never see it coming. [/B]

Your words here are exactly the point I was stressing, only I put it in a modern context.

So why practice a MMA? Why practice an IMA?

Why for any multiple reasons why. However, it shouldn't be because one belives one art is better than another.

(If or When) you come to think it through, sooner or later, your goings to draw the conclusion of "why argue, debate or critic another H2H art? "

We are only talking about relative weakness and advantages within a format of kinesthetic movements called a martial art.

In the end its all H2H

These weakness and advantages change dramatically for “All” once a physical weapon enters the equation, regardless of what style of H2H one practice.

Shooter

12-30-2003, 12:48 PM

Ankle-pick=Pick-up-needle

Low kick-catch and punch=Pick-up-needle

Fireman's carry=Emptying-rice-bag

Crucifix=Carry-an-ox-head

Double-leg=Polishing-mirror

Low roundhouse shin-check=Golden=rooster

Knee-strike in clinch=Golden-rooster

Knee-to-elbow strike combo=Golden-rooster

Harai-goshi=Rhino-looks-at-the-moon

Uchi-mata=Swallow-soars-to-the-sea

Pushing off in the clinch(for instance)=Ward-off

Shuck or throw-by=Roll-back&Pull-down

Elbow or knee strike=Elbow-strike

Body-check, shoulder-check, hip-check, head-butt=Shoulder-stroke

Pushing off for duck-under(for instance)=Press

Flying-knee=Skipping

Straight-blast=Lightning-attack

Hitting methods too numerous to list (some are listed above).

Just to name a few of TCC's Applications.

There are no techniques in TCC - just good tactical movement.

BTW, in case anyone cares, this guy just cuts and pastes from other peoples' posts on bullshido and sews it into his own posts here. I thought he was 3 or 4 different people! LOL How weak is that? Unless he's really kungfools, et al.

Pork Chop

12-30-2003, 02:37 PM

Many many thanks Shooter; going to print that out for future use and research! I mean, the modern competition forms may not be hot stuff compared to real traditional stuff, but understanding how more of the moves can be used & envisioned might clean up my play a bit.

My education in hsing yi and taiji is pretty low theory/explanation wise; but of the forms I've learned & practised a million times, they feel like they have the most carry-over to what I'm doin. So eventho I'm planning on walking away from my other kung fu school, I got a feeling I'm always going to play with those forms from those other 2 styles.

So who's the cut n paster? Syd or Unmatchable?

Right now I'm reading through "European"'s post off of Shen Wu forum. The j0ckriding is amazing, and even crosses stylistic boundaries.

Unmatchable

01-02-2004, 12:20 AM

with the mma crowd, you pretty much need a champion--someone who wins NHB events. Of course, said champion must also consistently exhibit techniques that are obviously derived from his or her style style and not typically seen elsewhere. Gracies did a great job of doing this. I don't think there has been a greco wrestling poster boy or a muay thai champion...it is just widely recognized that these martial arts are valuable tools.
I mean, all MMA fighters use those styles, but I don't think there was just one person that showed and started doing MT or wrestling and everyone jumped on it.

I think BJJ was the only one. I believe that particular art (Muay Thai) stepped in to fill the obvious gap in BJJ's game. As it stands now, however, the mold is set for MMAists. I'm not trying to say that these are the only two styles practiced, but they are among only a handful of those relied upon in the mainstream. For something to come along and usurp BJJ or MT's status, it would have to score some pretty spectacular victories.

Here is a thread you guys should read:
http://www.mma.tv/TUF/DisplayMessages.cfm?TID=350356&P=10&FID=1&c=1

I trained with a Shorin Ryu guy in Grinnell, IA for a couple years. He was super-hardcore, and the folks he trained with trained very realistically. They would spar full-contact, and they trained for fast KO's.
Anyways, he didn't look like a typical "karate" guy at all. He looked more like a modified kickboxer. He would angle at you until he found an opening and blast you with punches and kicks right down your centerline until you weren't left standing.

The moral to this story is, if you take any TMA and train it in a realistic way, what you are gonna end up with is gonna look a lot like MMA (since this guys neglected his groundwork, he looked more like a kickboxer.)

Take a look at San Da (san shou). A lot of Chinese TMA stylists do it, and it looks pretty much like Muay Thai with lots of good throws. These guys aren't training MT and wrestling. They haven't scrapped their traditional arts. They are just training more realistically in their arts. Everything ends up looking similar, because after all, a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. There are only so many ways you can manipulate the human body.

I bring this up because everyone is saying that Franklin sucks now that he has gotten beat by a karate dude. I think that Franklin IS as good as his hype, and I think that he is in the same league (or just a step behind) Liddel, Ortiz, Belfort, and Couture. I just think that it is quite possible for this guy Lyoto to be that good.

TMAs + realistic training + live sparring = typical MMA fighter.