taiji style?

[wahh]

hi everyone,

this sounds liek a dumb question, but i figure I shoudl ask it anyway.

So i'm itnerested in learning taiji, however i'm quite put off by the high kicks and the jumping moements in some styles of taiji. i was wondering if you know of any style that does not have either of these?

just another question, i'm sure you've all heard people ask this a million times, but i'll ask this one anywya. What do you look for in a taiji instructor? In external martial arts, its a little easier since most of the movements are external, but for the internal arts how do you see how good an instructor is??

Thanks in advance.

[Syd]

1. Yes, just do any of the westernised versions of the Yang short form bereft of any martial application. Most Taiji performed today in the west is without any combat aspect.

2. Most of the things I would look for in an instructor are the same things I would look for in forms, which is the antithesis of everything *you* would want in a teacher as far as I can tell, judging by what you seek in a form.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

wahh.

Many of the styles got high kicks, not all of them are designed to be used but are more training purpose.
"Train high, kick low."

Jumps are good, you might need them in a real life confrontation, anything that is in your arsenal might come in handy one day.

Most of the taiji kicks and jumps don't need much flexibility or special ability, you normally build up slowly to them.

What to look for in an Instructor?
Tough one.

What is you aim to get from Taiji practice, look for an Intructor that can fulfill that goal for you.

If you want a traditional teacher that teaches you the martial applications look for one that challenges you and forces you to do things you don't like like high kicks and jumps. ;)
Unfortunately there are few teachers that are good at teaching the martial side.

[wahh]

Hi T'ai Ji Monkey

Thanks for your response.

I was hoping there was maybe a style I coudl find without jumps or kicks simply because those high kicks and jumps aren't very practical. I guess I'll have to decide between the major styles then. Do any of you guys practice Chen Taiji?

[Syd]

Those kicks and leaps were put there by men of genius, if you can't see the application then it's surely your loss... I don't think Yang Lu Chan was an impracticle man.

[wahh]

hi syd,

from what you write, obviously you are very knowledagble in the taiji form. i'm not. but thats okay because i haven' t started learning yet, but i plan to.

but perhaps you could enlighten me on the high kicks in taiji and their application. I understand that unlike the shaolin arts, taiji trains for stability over agile footwork (like choy lay fut). But by bringing the the leg up so high, don't you lose stabliity and your lower body is vulnerable?

[Syd]

G'day Wahh,

Sorry if I seemed offhand but I felt there was more to be said regarding the kicks and their applications.

Ok, essentially there are no kicks above the waist in Taijiquan. What you see in some of the forms are infact extentions of the kicks in order to train firm rootedness and to ensure that we are opening up the joints which is part of the entire raison d'etre of Taijiquan.

For example when you perform a heel kick in Taijiquan, during the slow form this generally looks high but this is essentially jiben gong (training) rather than the direct application. The application of a heel kick is always to the groin or the waist area.

Your question regarding stability is apt and brings us to the most important aspect of this technique which is largely about sinking, rooting and remaing sung. When we have correctly learned to do these above three things then our stability should not be unduly effected. If there is no stability then there is something flawed in our training or our understanding of the technique.

You would only use a heel kick if the situation was auspicious and for no other reason. So the heel kick is not just a kick but rather it is blocking an attack and countering thus and doing several things at once.

1. Attacker kicks you with right leg and strikes with left fist. Application of Left Heel kick;

As we bring our left knee upward we deflect attackers right kick out to our left having not yet extended the leg out. Our torso is turning left (not our waist) and deflecting the left punch with our left back palm as it comes up to fan out into the left heel kick posture.

At this point we use the opponents energy and lead him into a disadvantageous position by coiling our left hand over his fist, grasping it in any number of chin na techniques. Simultaneously we are pulling the attacker towards us, off balance as we extend our left heel kick directly outwards using a coiling centrifugal fajin directly into the attackers groin or stomach.

So we are essentially in this one movement doing several things which may look impractical in the form but in reality are very useful. We are able to borrow our attackers energy and make more firm our root (should we need to) by securing the opponents hand as we pull them onto the outward bound heel kick to the vital areas. It's a pretty vicious manouvre which needs to be see in real time to understand the principles involved. It is actually very practical and in close quarters, very handy and economical too.

So we are blocking and deflecting a right kick and left punch and countering in this application. There are variations of this technique such is the nature of our art. I would actually be put off by anybody not teaching leaping kicks and the full long form curriculum, but thats me.

Best, Syd

[CaptinPickAxe]

Anyone know about Wudang Chuan? I found a school in Colorado that teaches that and Dog Boxing. Can anyone tell me anything about the style?

[wahh]

hi syd,

thanks for the response. put in that context it makes sense. i'm accustomed to southern kung fu styles where you generally see low kicks.

oh one more question about the jumping moves in the form. You mentioned that the high kciks train for stability and a firm root. but when both feet leave the ground, aren't you once again in a vulnerable position? you aren't rooted to teh ground anymore and since your'e nto rooted, you're not very stable. Im guessing this also must be a training device.

[backbreaker]

Jumping may have to do with applications where the opponent attacks your lower body or legs . I think you would immediatly want to put your structure down on him after you jump up. If your main rooted leg is attacked you can also switch step by stomping down with your other leg maybe. There is a kick where you jump up and then kick downwards into the opponent ; almost like a pi qaun type motion in xingyi, and the move involves lifting the opponent upwards with a spiral and then kicking, and then putting the structure immediately down again . There are also "tornado" sweeps and kicks which can be done low or high. I can only guess that maybe the jumping kicks uses power from both legs woking adding to the power or maybe more spinning power. Jumping moves in the form make it more difficult for cardiorespertory fitness too.

[Brad]

Anyone know about Wudang Chuan? I found a school in Colorado that teaches that and Dog Boxing. Can anyone tell me anything about the style?
Wudang Chuan is a very general term like Shaolin Chuan. There's lots of different "Wudang Chuan" styles.

[CaptinPickAxe]

hmmm...Has anyone from Colorado heard of this school? It requires a try-out to become a student.

[Syd]

G'day Wah,

You mentioned that the high kciks train for stability and a firm root. but when both feet leave the ground, aren't you once again in a vulnerable position?

You have to remember that this is usually in response to a sweep where the opponent would be beneath your waist level and close to the ground, or you may be jumping due to a weapon sweeping at the legs. The period of time that you are in the air is so fast that the loss of root is moot and negligable.

The other thing to remember is that lotus kicks are usually performed after you have gathered the opponents head, wrapping your right arm say around the back of their heads, pulling it down towards you as you then perform your right arcing lotus kick straight into their head or chest at your own waist height.

you aren't rooted to teh ground anymore and since your'e nto rooted, you're not very stable. Im guessing this also must be a training device.

No it's actually an application and while there are few leaping kicks they have their purpose and are completely practical in use. I'd suggest finding a very good Taiji teacher who knows their applications and asking them about the kicks and applications; how they work and their role in fighting strategy. It's often very difficult to explain in writing but all becomes clear the minute somebody shows you in real life.

Best, Syd

[brassmonkey]

Wahh seems like you have a firm grasp of practicality based on your questions. Don't let these jokers on here fool ya, "internal" arts should be practical too.

[wahh]

hey thanks for your response guys,

i hope i can find a good master as you guys have. you guys seem to know yoru stuff pretty good. and unfortunately its hard to tell how good an instructor is...especialyl when you are just starting.

still i have one question abtou the jumping still. yeah i know its better to get an instructor.. but for the next few weeks, ... i won't be going anywhere...

for the situations that the jumps would be used, for me it seems more practical that you owuld step towards him. for example if someone tries to leg sweep you, couldn't you step towards him, and his sweep woudl be ineffective and at teh sametime you would not sacrafice yoru root and he would be in a very bad position? i dunno, maybe theres some technique or moevment i dont know and its a very bad idea to step in towards him... but enlighten me please. :D

yeah sorry about asking all these questions, your patience is proably running thin bynow.

[Syd]

Wahh seems like you have a firm grasp of practicality based on your questions. Don't let these jokers on here fool ya, "internal" arts should be practical too.

The voice of authority breaks it's silence. *LMAO*

[brassmonkey]

"The voice of authority breaks it's silence. *LMAO*"

well thank you for recognizing

[brassmonkey]

syd maybe when I have time I'll post how absurd some of the stuff you've posted so far on here if you like and then we'll truly see who the ultimate keyboard warrior is among us

[Syd]

Go ahead sister, your playing to a empty theatre... *L* Oh.... and two posts, that really must have got you riled. Bring it on, I need something to break the insomnia....yawnnnnn.

[brassmonkey]

ok mang its on like donkey kong after my lunch break, prepare your peng because I'll be coming with alot of jing, that sounds very bad

[Syd]

Tell you what, why don't you just direct your misguided animosity towards answering the guy's questions. If you have a different take, then by all means state your case analytically and based on the content of the question.

You might want to start with why you think that men like Yang Lu Chan and company were wrong to include leaping kicks or anything else you've got problems with. Try that instead of calling people jokers and you might actually earn a little respect.

Kay? ;)

[brassmonkey]

"Kay?"

I'm game, here you state:

"Those kicks and leaps were put there by men of genius, if you can't see the application then it's surely your loss... I don't think Yang Lu Chan was an impracticle man."

I would never say Yang Lu Chan was wrong because I have no idea what he was training with the jumping kick. And yes I don't see the application. I see this attitude on these internet boards quite often. Its as if the pinnacle of Tai Chi Chuan was with Yang Lu Chan and Chen Fake. There will be no one better and the art will never improve from theyre time.

"You have to remember that this is usually in response to a sweep where the opponent would be beneath your waist level and close to the ground, or you may be jumping due to a weapon sweeping at the legs. The period of time that you are in the air is so fast that the loss of root is moot and negligable."

you would think the people who work the most against sweeps(Judo, Shui Chiao) would have figured out to simply jump out of the way.

[brassmonkey]

onto heel kick application:

"1. Attacker kicks you with right leg and strikes with left fist. Application of Left Heel kick; "

this attack is straight out of a kung fu movie but some old timers like some of the Tibetan Crane guys I've heard did attack like this.

"As we bring our left knee upward we deflect attackers right kick out to our left having not yet extended the leg out. Our torso is turning left (not our waist) and deflecting the left punch with our left back palm as it comes up to fan out into the left heel kick posture."

You know, I"ve been trying to do this, turn my torso left without moving my waist, its a pretty good stretch. But where is the "one part moves all parts move" from the classics here.

"At this point we use the opponents energy and lead him into a disadvantageous position by coiling our left hand over his fist, grasping it in any number of chin na techniques. Simultaneously we are pulling the attacker towards us, off balance as we extend our left heel kick directly outwards using a coiling centrifugal fajin directly into the attackers groin or stomach."

If you can't see how impractical grabbing someone's fist out of the air and chi na'ing it is then there's nothing I can say to convince you.

"So we are essentially in this one movement doing several things which may look impractical in the form but in reality are very useful. We are able to borrow our attackers energy and make more firm our root (should we need to) by securing the opponents hand as we pull them onto the outward bound heel kick to the vital areas. It's a pretty vicious manouvre which needs to be see in real time to understand the principles involved. It is actually very practical and in close quarters, very handy and economical too."

borrowing the opponent's force is changing the direction he punches by pulling him into you? Firming your root is having control of the opponents hand? Yes I think kyour right, I would have to see it.

[backbreaker]

I would guess that a kick leaping forward might be good or it could be bad . If the opponent doesn't see it coming it could be good to gain distance kicking him before he knows it. If he sees it coming he'll probably step outta the way. If the opponent runs in attacking instead of using a shuffle stepping method , you can kick him coming in and maybe knock him down. I think you can maybe also kick the opponent backwards and down in close , and I think the idea is to push off your back leg for stability and then come down right on top your opponent. So I'm not sure about this, but I think it involves lifting the opponent up by pushing his elbow upwards and exposing his body for a kick first . Then once you have him up , you can kick pushing off your back leg, and then immediatley slam your structure downwards . Also I think if you kick him in the stomach while you have a hold of his hand ( or any time in close there is going to be opportunities for kicks, knees , sweeps) after you kick him , you want to step down into the opponents center with that same kicking leg putting you structure down on your opponent and taking his root to the ground away, maybe also applying chin na holds if he grabs you or gives you an opportunity . I'm no expert in taiji at all , but I've been doing different styles for different lengths, some for quite a few years. I'm only scratching the surface of taiji.

[Syd]

O.k I'm happy to dicuss this sanely so let me respond in like kind as best I can.

"Kay?"

I'm game, here you state:

I would never say Yang Lu Chan was wrong because I have no idea what he was training with the jumping kick.

Well there are plenty of students and masters since Yang Lu Chan who know what he was training in, they were taught by continual lineage, and thats where we have the various applications. Yes it's possible there may be variations and alterations since then, but you simply adopt the techniques that you like best and apply not that which you find unworkable. I merely explained one such option, there are many others depending on the situation.

And yes I don't see the application.

What do you want me to do about it?

I see this attitude on these internet boards quite often. Its as if the pinnacle of Tai Chi Chuan was with Yang Lu Chan and Chen Fake. There will be no one better and the art will never improve from theyre time.

I think they are a mile stone yes, and since Yang Lu Chan was the creator of his own system I think we can give credit where credit is due. I certainly don't think no-one will be ever be better, who knows? The environment for maniacal study and application of Taiji as a fighting art in the modern age is simply not there like it used to be, so the chances of someone being as skilled in real combat like Yang are slimmer for sure, though not impossible.

you would think the people who work the most against sweeps(Judo, Shui Chiao) would have figured out to simply jump out of the way.

It was but one application. There may be circumstances when your back is against a wall or you are fighting in close quarters. In which case you cannot jump back or out of the way. Anything and everything is possible and applications are there to fit a variety of situations. If you see no use for it don't use it.

I'll get on with your next post now.

[Syd]

Hello again...

this attack is straight out of a kung fu movie but some old timers like some of the Tibetan Crane guys I've heard did attack like this.

It's only one application and in many applications only one of two or more things may occur. The idea is to be in position to defend against multiple eventualities. Maybe you've watched too many kung fu movies, I don't know.

You know, I"ve been trying to do this, turn my torso left without moving my waist, its a pretty good stretch. But where is the "one part moves all parts move" from the classics here.

I don't know, you go find it. Taiji forms and postures are about opening up the joints and using centrifugal energy and jin. It works for me and the guys I train with, maybe you haven't loosened up enough yet. God help you should you ever try Bagua!

If you can't see how impractical grabbing someone's fist out of the air and chi na'ing it is then there's nothing I can say to convince you.

If you can't apply Chin Na and the simplest of Taiji applications then there's nothing I can say to convice you either.

borrowing the opponent's force is changing the direction he punches by pulling him into you? Firming your root is having control of the opponents hand? Yes I think kyour right, I would have to see it.

If you are leading and turning your waist correctly yes you are borrowing his force. If you upset the opponents energy by snap pulling him towards you with right torso, left hip shake, then you will create a violent neck kink which is basic knock out. It's clear you haven't trained in these applications and you don't seem open to understanding them either.

As to firming the root? Yes because you release your left heel kick ( remember timing is everything) at the same time as you trap the attackers hand and whip him forwards. You are essentially firmly rooted on the right leg and then coming down ontop of the opponent with your left.

If you don't understand it or can't get it to work then I suggest you do 1 of three things.

1. Train harder...
2. Find a proper teacher...
3. Forget it altogether and keep doing what you do now.

I can't see the absurdity you claimed anywhere. This is my final comment.

Best to you and yours, Syd

[brassmonkey]

"I can't see the absurdity you claimed anywhere. This is my final comment."

of course not your drowning in it

[Syd]

zzzzzzzzz.... swat!

[Walter Joyce]

Just a thought, and for the record I have studied Yang, Chen and Wu.

If you want "original" tai ji, you didn't need to "discover" the secret Yang Lu Chan form.

Study Chen, after all they taught Yang Lu Chan and their tradition is unbroken.

[Syd]

I don't think it's possible to have original Taiji, it's a lovely idea but. I take your point regarding Chen Style but Yang's art was different from Chen's in the end anyway. I am planning to study Chen with Chen Xiaowangs second eldest son Chen Ying Jun here locally and I have contact with the son of Grandmaster Li Li Qun, Sifu Sam Li, who studied under Ma Yueh Liang, standard bearer of Wu Jian Quan in Shanghai for over 20 years. I am personally interested in learning from these three systems and deriving the best of the three arts, which I have an equal respect for.

Best, Syd

[GLW]

Syd,

unfortunately, what you describe is highly unlikely.

Without spending a good deal of time and energy with each system...and taking each system on its own terms, you will NOT be able to synthesize them together.

For example, if the style you know best is Chen style, when you dabble (and that is what you describe) with Wu and Yang style, what you do will end up having a distinctly Chen flavor. All you would walk away with is a taste of Wu and Yang but no true depth.

There ARE common principles that you can spend time on. With this foundation and a good teacher that understands the common principles as well as the "Special" places of their chosen style of Taijiquan, you can get the synthesis you talk about. However, finding this situation is not likely.

I would suggest that you choose one style to focus on for a good while first.

[Syd]

GLW,

I would be the first person to agree with all you have stated. I am not abandoning my Yang art, but rather I wish to look into learning the Wu set and understanding how this system differs from Yang.

In the old days there was no differentiation between Yang and Wu until Yang Cheng Fu embarrassed an official who then began promoting Wu style over Yang as a retaliation.

I believe that the essence and principles of Taiji are the same for every original system. There are differences in outer appearance but the intent is always the same. I'll enjoy exploring Wu and later Chen and I doubt they will take away from my Yang forms one iota as I know the flavour of Yang all too well.

I think if you understand how to perform the forms of each style and to know and understand the inner intent, you'll be fine. Why should it be any different from Shaolin Quan, where practitioners learn many different sets and animal forms which have their own intent and flavour? (Rhetorical)

Syd

[RAF]

Syd:

It had always been my understanding that there was a relatively close relationship between Wu Chien Chuan and Yang Cheng Fu. I can't remember where the source was but they did a public demonstration, I believe, in Shanghai, together.

Here is a piece from the Wu Family site:
http://www.wustyle.com/en/about/

Founding Master Wu Chuan Yau studied under Master Yang Lu Chan, then under his son Master Yang Ban Hau. Master Wu's disciples included Hsia Kong Pu, Wang Mao Chi, Kuo Song Ting, Chang Yuan Ting among others.

My great great grandfather Master Wu Chuan Yau (1834-1902) was the founder of Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan. He was a Manchurian member of the Imperial Guard in Beijing. He learned Tai Chi Chuan from the founder of Yang Style, Master Yang Lu-Chan. His area of specialization was neutralization. His eldest son, Master Wu Chien Chuan (1870-1942) was the second master of Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan. His influence on the development of the Wu Style was very significant. Master Wu Chien Chuan modified the forms taught to him by his father. He utilized a narrower circle and created many new ways to apply the form in a practical manner.

In 1924, Master Wu Chien Chuan, along with colleagues, Xi-Yiu Seng, Yang Shao Hou (Yang Shou Hou) and Yang Cheng Fu founded a famous martial arts school. This had an important effect in the practice of Tai Chi Chuan as it became available to the general public for the first time.

Master Wu Chien Chuan moved south to Shanghai in 1928. There he was appointed to the Board of Directors of the Shanghai Martial Arts Association. Subsequently, he became the supervisor of the Tai Chi Chuan section of the famous Ching Wu Sports Association. In 1935, my great grandfather established the first Wu's Tai Chi Chuan Academy in Shanghai.
________________________________________

Maybe there was some fight but I have never heard any bad blood between the Wu style practitioners [Master Ma Yueh Liang ( Master Wu's son-in-law) and Master Wu Ying Hua (Master Wu's daughter)] and the Yang style practitioners (Fu Zhong Wen).

Does anyone know about this separation in more detail? Just curious.

:confused: :confused:

[Syd]

G'day RAF,

It's a pleasure to be talking to a direct family member of the Wu lineage, I'm sure you could reveal quite a wealth of information on the Wu set.

I read somewhere that when Yang Cheng Fu and Wu had their school together that an official was doing some push hands with Yang and expected that Yang would let him win and give him face. Yang did no such thing and made the official look weak.

As a result of this the official began learning Yang style from Wu and began promoting the Wu's over Yang Cheng Fu.

Thats about the heart of what I've been privvy to.

Could you tell me anything about the Wu fast set?

Best regards, Syd

[RAF]

Sorry Syd but I am not a direct family member of the Wu style although I have done a seminar in it many years back with Wen Mei Yu and I do have a strong appreciation of Wang Peisheng.

However, the site I provided you with has tapes, history and is the Wu family school. You could direct your questions to them.

Good luck in your search and integration.

[Syd]

Hello again RAF,

Did I missunderstand this quote?

My great great grandfather Master Wu Chuan Yau (1834-1902) was the founder of Wu Style Tai Chi Chuan.

Is this a quote from the website or were you saying this? Forgive my mistaken assumption but I thought it was *you* saying this.

Very Best, Syd

[Brad]

Having met RAF, I'm pretty sure he's not a direct decendent of Wu Chuan Yau ;) RAF just got the wrong link :D http://www.wustyle.com/en/about/history.html

[RAF]

Thank you Brad. I cut and pasted and unintentionally created the impression that he was my grandfather. Unless, of course, tuscans are related to the Chinese or the Mongolian hordes did one of my Slovak/Hungarian ancestors I have no direct link or genetic tie to the Wu family..

Sorry Syd, although my future children (Liu) may have an indirect link to baji/Hebei, they won't have a link to the Wu family. LOL.

Just wanted to give you a direct link to a place where you could probably get a pretty straight answer to the questions you ask concerning the Wu style.

Again, thanks Brad and stay off of Interstate 270.