Wu vs Wuhao Tai Chi

[saifa5k]

Can someone tell me the difference between Wu style and Wuhao style tai chi. Are these originally fighting styles?
Davec

[Syd]

Basically Wu hao style was taught to Wu in his days in Yongnian by Yang Lu Chan's son I believe. He then went on and taught his own students and adopted this system name. The other Wu, (Jian Quan), was an Imperial Body Guard for the Manchurians and when Yang Lu Chan was teaching at the barracks he taught bodyguards and the Princes themselves. Wu being Manchu and wanting to adopt a Han name to blend into society changed his name later on to Wu and this style now known as Wu Jian Quan.

Wu Jian Quan is essentially a small frame set of Yang Lu Chan's, there were two apparently. Some believe that Yang Lu Chan taught a watered down set because the Manchu's were invaders and not Han, but this has since been discounted by reports that the Small Frame that was taught at court was already know and practiced within the Yang family and essentially the Wu Jian Quan style is one of these very forms with a few minor changes.

Some people believe that the small frame of Wu Jian Quan style was altered by Yang because of the long sleeved robes and whatnot, but this is now widely regarded as nonsense. The Wu Jian Quan small frame of Yang Lu Chan is a fighting set. I would say that Wu Hao is also a fighting set but I know less about this set and it's modern aspects as it is not so well known today.

I practice the small frame of Yang Lu Chan within Yang Style which comes down from the Yang Shao Hou (Yang Lu Chans grandson who preserved and did not alter his grandfathers forms like Yang Cheng Fu did) side and this small frame is considered to be a version of the other small frame practiced by the Yang Family, not taught to the Manchu's and Wu Jian Quan. Sorry but I'm in a rush and thats the best I could do.

[GLW]

Two way different styles:

Wu Yu hsiang is credited with the Wu Hao style. After learning from Yang, he went back and learned also from the Chen style.

It is possibly the most formless of the major styles of Taijiquan. Much higher stances and seemingly less active in movements. In fact, it was this percieved lact of dynamic action that almost spelled the end of the style. When the major styles were being selected for preservation in China, there were those that discounted Chen style as not being truly Taijiquan but being "cannon fist" and a watered down long fist method. These folks were eventually quieted.

then, in considering Wu/hao and Sun, it was felt that Sun was more dynamic and interesting...as well as having come from a mixture of Wu/Hao with Bagua and hsing yi...so, they did not do much to preserve Wu Hao style. In fact, up until about 10 or 15 years ago, you would be hard pressed to find someone teaching Wu/hao outside of china...not that there weren't some...but it was rare...and still is.

The stnaces, as I said, tend to be higher. It is a stle well suited for older people due to the lss strenuous leg work. It is a valid form of Taijiquan but smaller and less vigorous.

Wu Jianquan style is perhaps the next most widely practiced Taijiquan outside of Yang style. It has much the same tempo and flavor in the regualr fist form as Yang...but a different frame...and very notable in the alignment of the back with the rear leg in Gong bu stance... However, in Yang, there is a claim that there was a fast form...this has been refuted by the Yang family and the likes of Fu Zhongwen.

Wu jianquan style has a fast form that is quite lively and interesting.

[Syd]

G'day GLW

However, in Yang, there is a claim that there was a fast form...this has been refuted by the Yang family and the likes of Fu Zhongwen.

This is interesting. I am not sure though if when you say fast form you are talking about the Old Yang Style which has fajin and leaping kicks or some claim of an all fast paced form like Pao Chui (Cannon Fist)?

I know the small frame Old Yang form that we practise which has slow and fast movements including the above mentioned leaping kicks and fajin are definately from Yang Shao Hou because Chen Pan Ling, who was one of only three openly reconized students of Yang Shou Hou along with my teachers, teacher Chang Yiu Chun (A Yang family cousin), has a published version which is almost identical to the one that we perform.

Could you clarify just for sake of interest?

Best, Syd

[saifa5k]

Thank you both for your replies. There is an instructer in Tulsa,OK that teaches Wuhau.
Dave c

[GLW]

Yang style history is murky in some areas.

For example, there are many many people teaching Taijiquan that claim to trace their lineage back to Yang Banho. Examining this in light of the record that Banho reputedly taught only 4 or 5 people...the likelihood of this is slim...

Then you have a very small group of folks claiming a lineage from Shaohou. The Yang lineages left in china do not really agree with the forms as taught...

You have people claiming to do "original" Yang style....but that would be Chen as Yang Luchang learned it.

The closer you get to Yang Luchan, the more the form should look like Chen Old frame... If it does not, I would say that there are mistakes in lineage.

Dong Yingjie maintained that he and Yang Chengfu were creating a fast Yang form and that it was pretty much completed before YCF died. However, no one else in the YCF lineage knows of it.

I have personally seen a large number of "Fast"forms. Having seen the slow forms of the same people, I can say that 95% of what they are doing is simply their slow form done quickly and adding in fajing.

In my experience, a LOT of what people do in Yang style is questionable. The structure is strange and flow is off...

[saifa5k]

Please define "Fajing". I know it has something to do with creating or emitting energy but thats about all I know.
Dave c

[GLW]

Fajing is an explosive emission of power that typically starts at the lower Tan Tien (Dantien) with a motion that then wips through the body = typically down to the legs and gathers force from the legs as well and then travels through the body to the part of the body that is issuing the strike or block.

Fajing will not work if the body is stiff. also, if there is misalignment..as in a sharp edge, a raised shoulder, elbow out of place, etc... fajing at the best will be diminished and at the worst will be focused on the part of YOUR body that is in violation of proper principles and alignment. this is why peple that issue power with incorrect body alignment and mechanics tend to suffer joint problems and such when they get older...the power issued explodes in the joint... kind of like hitting yourself. Similar to not stayng tense after striking to prevent the power from rebounding back to you. This is NOT magic I am talking about but simple physics applied to the structure of the human body.

[Brad]

What's up with the Wu Jian Quan style lean? Do all Wu stylists do this and was this a modification by Wu or did the Yang familly do this too pre-Yang Chen Fu? What purpose does it serve? Also, is there anywhere I can get demonstrative video of the Wu style fast form?

[Brad]

Which Yang familly members did Wu(Hao) & Wu Jian Quan styles decend from?

Also, is there anyone that we can be pretty sure teaches a version of Yang style that originated from a pre-Yang Cheng Fu familly member?

[GLW]

For Wu/Hao - the story was that Wu Yu Hsiang learned from Yang Luchan. Then at some point was going to Chenjiagou to learn. He ended up learning from a slightly different lineage of Chen than did Yang Luchan.

Wu Jianquan's father in most likelihoods learned from Yang Luchan. however, due to Imperial politics, according to the story, was officially listed as a student of Yang Shaohou (if memory serves...)Wu Jianquan then learned from both. That version of Taijiquan was not really considered a different style until Yang Chengfu's time. From the tale I read, it had more to do with YCF embarrassing an official that then started promoting the Wu's than either the Yang's or the Wu's viewing their mthods as that different.

As for Pre-Yang chengfu versions...there are a number that lay claim to this distinction. Some even claim to have learned form the same source...I have seen a number that claim to be from Yang Banhao and there are a number that claim Yang Shaoho as well. and even one or two that lay claim to "original" Yang Luchan routine. However, no two of the same lineage do it with any real similarity so if there is a "real" one, it would be virtually impossible to determine which one it is. For example, Yang Jwing Ming claims that his routine is from Yang Banhao. Similarly, Guang Ping Taijiquan claims to be from Yang Banhao. They are very different in methods...so which is true or how does that work.... Your guess is as good as any.

[Syd]

I agree that forms will change slightly as they come down from different teachers to various students and that it is very hard to know the original art of Yang Lu Chan. But as I stated before I am fairly sure of our Yang Shou Hou forms because Chen Pan Ling, who was a fellow student with Chang Yiu Chun, both students of Yang Shao Hou, wrote a book in the 50's which shows his form from this side, and as I stated before, it is nearly identical to our own form. I can't vouch for anybody else however.

Best, Syd

[RAF]

If you are interested in some sources of Chen Panling, here is a post from another site by Dr. Ken Fish :

It is generally accepted that
1) THe form which Chen Panling taught was devised by him with the assistance of several other teachers in mainland, and later Taiwan (including Madame Zhu Suyi and Hsiung Yanghe). This is well documented, both in Taiwan published books on the subject and in Mainland (refer to the encyclopedia of Wushu, the section on well known personages).

2. Whom Wang Shujin studied with while in mainland China and what he learned are subjects of debate. In Taiwan he learned from Chen Panling (Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua) and Zhang Junfeng (Xingyi, Bagua). Refer to the well researched articles on Wang's life in the Bagua journal.

KJF

[Syd]

I did say it is nearly identical but not exactly the same. It still doesn't make sense though that Chang Yiu Chun would have a similar set to Chen Pan Ling if Chen changed it so dramatically *or* created a whole new style since Chang Yiu Chun merely taught my teacher the set which he learned from Yang Shao Hou. It's all very interesting but doesn't quite make sense.

[GLW]

An interesting bit of history...

Originally, many people in China would talk badly a bit about people like Fu Zhongwen because he did not add or take away from what he learned form Yang Chengfu. Fu repeatedly stated that his goal was to preserve what his teacher did as accurately and as faithfully as possible.

Others "interpretted" what their teacher taught them. This then led to numerous versions of even Yang Chengfu's form.

Even if two students attempt to do exactly what their teacher does, they will still have differences due to physical ability, body structure, etc.... Then you add in that many people simply do not listen and understand...so you have MANY interpretations of the same thing. Some are good...some are valid...and some are poor attempts.

It is up to the person seeking to learn to figure out which is which....

Ain't life fun... :)

[Syd]

Indeed...;)

[scholar]

Originally posted by Brad
What's up with the Wu Jian Quan style lean? Do all Wu stylists do this and was this a modification by Wu or did the Yang familly do this too pre-Yang Chen Fu? What purpose does it serve? Also, is there anywhere I can get demonstrative video of the Wu style fast form?

The Wu Jianquan (Wu Chien-ch'uan) style lean is for training reach, stretching the back leg and guaranteeing yin-yang separation of the weight 100%-0% in training. A Wu stylist has to be able to do on one leg what others would do on two. Wu style generally sits a little higher than Yang or Chen, which means the legs are closer together, so the lean provides reach without separating the legs and exposing the groin too much.

It is for these training purposes in the forms and pushing hands, a Wu stylist doesn't necessarily lean like that in fighting, although they do have that option.

Interestingly, I have seen old photos from around 1918 of Yang Ch'eng-fu doing some forms in which he has a definite "Wu style" lean. It is said that he took most (but not all) of the leaning out of his forms when he got older after gaining a lot of weight. Cheng Man-ch'ing took almost all of the leaning out of his form, and this is what most Westerners think of as "Yang style" today.

There are videos of Wu style fast forms and other Wu style forms made by the Wu family available at www.wustyle.com