View Full Version : New question about fighting

06-15-2000, 06:57 PM
Whas up y'all?

Here's a question to think about.
When you are fighting, (let's keep it simple here) say, while you're sparring, why do you get hit?

Hope to read some good posts when I get back from vacation.




06-15-2000, 11:38 PM
I am not exactly sure what you asking. Are you asking why is their contact sparring, or why do you yourself get hit - - or... Let me try to explain all.

My Sifu doesn't really have a reason for contact fighting. But to me, there are advantages between getting hit, and not. To Be hit or not to be hit - that is the question? ( heheheh ).

Anyways, the reason why I like getting hit in light to medium contact is that it persuades you to not yourself get hit. TO train yourself that your reflexes are faster, your technique more polished. That is my reason.

The other side of the argument is pretty obvious - it hurts. And you might say that your reflexes aren't built my sparring, but practicing the movement over and over. I agree, but you must know how to adjust those movements to agree with your opponent's.

Hope I helped you a little. :-)

Yuen Lo

06-15-2000, 11:46 PM
Is this a "mind over matter" question? or is it a "why aren't we quicker" question?


"In a fight, there is no second place."

06-16-2000, 12:16 AM
There are quite a few reasons why I get hit. In some instances, I'm just not as fast at that moment in time as my partner. In other instances, I "didn't see it coming"--I lost my focus, or I was in the process of making a spin kick, and my partner's kick came on my blind side (those are really cool).

Then, there are two other reasons I can think of off the top of my head. One, I was cocky. I was feeling really good and quick and on top of the world. Pow! I'm brought back down to earth (sometimes literally). Second, the "deer caught in headlights" syndrome. I see it coming, I know what I should do, but some part of me just doesn't doesn't allow me to do anything and...Pow! This usally comes about when I've gotten tired.

Water Dragon
06-16-2000, 05:22 AM
Because the other guy hit you /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

06-18-2000, 02:41 AM
Usually it is a mistake on your(my) part. Not seeing it coming, not reacting fast enough, not doing the right block/parry/evasion, or not doing them fast/hard enough.

Other times, it is to gain something bigger. For example, sometimes I let myself get hit (a glancing blow if I can help it), to let me get in to a better position/open up an enemies defences. Also, sometimes a glancing blow causes your opponent to over extend, giving you a great time to apply various throws joint locks, grappling or strikes to vital areas that would normally be covered.

Just some thoughts. Anyone got any others?

06-18-2000, 07:54 PM
Because somewhere, deep inside,
I like to get hit.


06-18-2000, 10:44 PM
Its a Zen thing.

He hit me.
I hit him.
He hit I.
I hit He.
I & He hit.
He & I hit.

You therefore both achieve direct correlative motion based on supplemental projection. Truely, becoming 'hit' elicits a transcendental quality of Higher Consciousness.

06-19-2000, 04:27 AM
Hey People!
Just got back from Florida.
I appreciate all of your replies.
I believe RobinF is closer to answering the
question, especially the part about "Deer in the Headlight" syndrome. Read that post and
let's continue this discussion.



Water Dragon
06-19-2000, 08:17 AM
If that's the case, I would think the correct question is why you don't think your going to get hit.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

06-19-2000, 07:11 PM
You just made my head spin 360 degrees on its axis. Sheesh.


I have another reason, this one a little more lofty, but it's true. I get hit sometimes because I think I'm going to get hit. I go up against a certain partner who I know is really good, and I think he's really good, so he is really good and I get hit. Maybe, subconsiously, I think I can't beat him to the hit, so I end up getting hit.

I was watching the Discovery channel and they were showing the brainwaves of a marksman shooter and a karate board breaker. They showed that the brain was actively thinking when they lined up their hits, but that the brain stopped thinking just before they made their hit--and they achieved 100%--the marksman shot a bullseye and the karate guy broke two bricks. Without thinking. Maybe we need to think less in sparring. And simply do.

Did anyone else see this program? I only saw the last 15 minutes and I'd like to know what it was so I can watch the rest of it.

06-19-2000, 07:32 PM
Whas up y'all,

Allow me in my humble way to kind of guide
this discussion. If any of you have a sparring class this week, here's what I want you to do. I want you to spar as you normaly would, but every time you get hit I want you to try to remember your state of mind at the time you got hit. Then come back to the discussion board and tell me your experiences.

I am hoping for some good posts.


06-19-2000, 08:52 PM
Just sparred last night.

Gee, I got hit a lot. One hit in particular, I was waiting for the kid to do something, baiting him--but that's what I do as a teacher. The second time I bait, I counter.

One hit I took over my blind shoulder to my head. I was just about to scoot back because I'd gotten in too close after my kick.

Another hit I took, I didn't care. I was lining him up in my sights to make a hit myself with a kick I know is weak for me. I took three hits and missed my hit altogether. Back to tbe bags on that one.

There was a hit I didn't take. I didn't have anything in my mind at all. I was firing off a good volley, side stepped to realign my attack and fired off some more. She tried a spin hook with a spin round after--that was what I side stepped for my next volley. I was focused without thinking about what I was going to throw or what I had to avoid. Maybe that's the key.

I'll try to think of more. I'm sure I'll have more as I'm starting the sport sparring class this Saturday.

How about you, Kid?

06-20-2000, 12:02 AM
Its ok to get hit. Just make sure you emidiatly hit right back. I try to follow my opponent strike back to the opening he created by striking. Its important to learn from getting hit and being able to take a hit. Thats where the whole muscle memorie/form thing comes in. You don't have to think your body just reacts properly.

06-20-2000, 04:39 AM
Hey Dooder,
I appreciate your reply.
I understand the whole muscle memory thing.
My first five years of MA were spent learning Kenpo. And yes it is okay to get hit, and one should learn from it. The problem is that saying you have to get hit to learn how to fight is like saying you have to get shot to learn how to shoot.
Just like when you learn to walk, you will
fall many times, but eventually you learn the principles and don't fall anymore. So why is it in fighting people never learn how not to get hit?

Interesting point, huh? Not possible you say.
I know differently. Think about it.



06-20-2000, 06:43 PM

I don't know if you read my post just above dooder's, but I brought up a point, and your new post seems to help me along a theory I'm developing.

Don't think and don't get hit.

You talked about learning to walk. When you learn to walk, you consciously think about walking and you fall. It's when you stop thinking about it that you stop falling.

Same thing for sparring (or an interesting experiment anyway). Don't think about sparring, and you won't take hits.

06-20-2000, 11:04 PM
Thanx for your reply. I appreciate it.
Keep digging. You are very close to understanding why you get hit during sparring. Your theory of not thinking while sparring is the tip of a massive iceberg. Once you see the entire iceberg, you will be surprised at the size of it.

What you have done, Robinf is found the answer, but do not yet know the question. If you know 4, but not that 2 + 2 = 4, then 4 is not good to you. So, I'll give you the question to your answer. Here it is: Why do I get hit when I think while sparring? Or, what happens to me when I think while sparring? When you answer these questions fully you will have seen the entire iceberg.

To try to help you along further, I see you have an enterest in Philosophy. I suggest you read P.D. Ouspensky's In Search of the Miraculous. On the surface it has nothing to do with MA. But if you look deeper you will see it can. Apply what you learn there to fighting.


P.S. I see by the homepage you posted in your profile that you study TKD. Here's something else for you to chew on. Not only should you not ever be hit, but no one should ever hit you with a kick either. Both of these statements are so for the same reason.

[This message has been edited by kungfukid (edited 06-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by kungfukid (edited 06-21-2000).]

06-20-2000, 11:34 PM
Here is my way of "light contact" sparring, which is different from the way I "full contact" spar which is different from self-defense:

1) Sense my opponents flow (position/posture, mental/emotional state)
2) Attempt to control my opponent by setting the pace: Strikes and counters creating a rhythm (enveloping and then expelling) -- I increase and decrease my speed, setting them up.
3) I tag until I score.

I do think during light contact but use sensitivity more because of the "tag"
element to light contact.

06-20-2000, 11:36 PM
And I rarely get hit...

06-21-2000, 12:05 AM
I found two listings for that book:

In Search of the Miraculous: Fragments of an Unknown Teaching

and simply

In Search of the Miraculous

Both by the same author. Are they the same book?
(thanks for the suggestion, I do love this stuff and I'm trying to figure out your puzzle).

06-21-2000, 12:10 AM
One more think, Kungfukid,

Is this philosophy you're talking about kind of like you hold a spoon up and believe, not just say but believe, there is no spoon. Kind of like existing without question or judgement, without thinking but allowing whatever it is in my system to simply be and respond.

That, if I think about getting hit, it is inevitable that I will get hit, as I'm preparing myself for it just by thinking about it.

Am I on the right track to what you're talking about?

I'm really getting into this. Let me think some more, but I would appreciate a response in the mean time.

06-21-2000, 07:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robinf:
One more think, Kungfukid,

Is this philosophy you're talking about kind of like you hold a spoon up and believe, not just say but believe, there is no spoon. Kind of like existing without question or judgement, without thinking but allowing whatever it is in my system to simply be and respond.

That, if I think about getting hit, it is inevitable that I will get hit, as I'm preparing myself for it just by thinking about it.

Am I on the right track to what you're talking about?
I'm really getting into this. Let me think some more, but I would appreciate a response in the mean time.[/quote]

When you fight without the conscious mind, your body will repsond appropriately. Thinking about getting hit is not what gets you hit. Thinking period gets you hit. Why?
You are on the right track, just try to remember what it feels like to fight someone.

Don't think. Feel! "It is like a finger pointing to the moon. Don't stare at the finger or you'll miss all that heavenly glory!"

P.S. Yes they are the same book.
[This message has been edited by kungfukid (edited 06-21-2000).]

[This message has been edited by kungfukid (edited 06-21-2000).]

Water Dragon
06-21-2000, 07:07 AM
Ha Haaa!!
I get what your saying now. Man, why do Kung Fu guys always have to try and talk like Confucious.

Anyway, along the lines of the above post, next time your sparring, pick a point on the wall behind you and keep thinking about it no matter what. This isn't some mystical trick so don't think that alone will keep you from getting popped. But keep your intention on the wall behind you. Check out the difference it makes. Post your results here if you like it.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

06-21-2000, 07:15 AM
Water Dragon,
Thanx for you reply, I appreciate it.
Looking at a point behind your opponent is only a part of the equations, a big part, but still only a part. Yes, you can do this and still get popped. But there is a away to fight without getting hit. What I'm am trying to get y'all to see has more to do with the mind than what you do with your body. No, it is not mystical, but if you can unlock the secret it will improve your sparring, fighting ability exponentially.



[This message has been edited by kungfukid (edited 06-21-2000).]

Water Dragon
06-21-2000, 07:30 AM

Come on now, ya gotta help out more than this.

Forward intention, no preconceived course of action, respond to the opponents intention, yield and go, follow the circle, forget your art and just go ballz out(the training will be there), no defense and no offense.

I'm still not catching it.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

06-21-2000, 08:10 AM
Water Dragon
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it.

Tell me, how does it feel to be so close to the truth but not see it?


Water Dragon
06-21-2000, 08:40 AM
I carry a Smith & Wesson .40 Cal. I can fight with that and not get hit /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Seriously, if your going to do a strong, traidional art, you need to add daggers and guns to the training.

If I'm correct, the traditional way is to learn the complete system, then improve it, make it relevant, and pass on the knowledge to the next generation.

But that my friends, is a different post

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

Water Dragon
06-21-2000, 08:51 AM
Oh yeah I forgot,
I can't get to Wuji(Mushin)yet. Still too much to learn and forget.

Although there are many styles, they all depend on the strong beating the weak and the slow falling to the quick. These are not related to the power that must be learned -- Taiji Classics

06-21-2000, 07:09 PM
What it feels like, with an empty mind, to spar/fight someone. Do you mean muscle feeling or mind feeling (such as what my muscles were doing, or the feeling of adreneline)?

06-21-2000, 09:05 PM

Pay close attention to your mind (mental state).

06-21-2000, 10:17 PM
indeed Ouspensky's works are good stuff.
i would also recommend 'tertium organum' by ouspensky.
however, if you are going to engage in physical combat, chances are, that you will get hit.
believing that you can learn some magical formula that will make you unable to be hit, is not a practical or attainable goal.
i understand that perhaps what you have read in ouspensky's book may have shocked you out of always thinking in the conventional ways, but, if you are to accept the ideas he presents, you must also remember that g says, basically, that without a teacher, (and group) you have a better chance of winning the 300 mill. lotto jackpot.
i think here you are falling into the trap of 'dreaming about being awake'...

there is a reason that most of the top martial artist of all time studied and practiced iron shirt... and it is certainly not because they believed that they could never be hit.

yes, incorporating 'mu shin' (empty mind) can help you to have faster responses/reflexes, and this may give you an edge over your classmates when it comes to sparring...
but, realistically, if you were to say that you 'cannot be hit' implies you could defeat anyone in a combat situation.
(as far as i know, the only way not to get hit, is to be as far away as possible from those sorts of situations.)
if you really 'cannot be hit', may i suggest you become a professional boxer... you would make millions, and you wouldn't even have to worry about becoming a punch drunk idiot in your older age.

plus, as a novice meditator, (less than 3 years, meditating at least an hour daily.) it can still take a good 10-20 mins just to get into a reasonably still state of mind... much more than enough time to get clocked in the head. - even if you were hypnotised and conditioned to go into a deep state of mental calm and clarity, it still takes a minimum of a few seconds... and still there is no guarantee. (that is like saying michael jordan can never miss a shot.)
so even if it were theoretically possible to not get hit, using some jedi mind trick, you would still have to be in that state of mind 24/7. (probably making you an enlightened being... and if you were an enlightened being, chances are that you wouldn't be spending you time trying to figure out how not to get hit. you would realise that it doesn't matter for jack snit whether you get hit... live... or die...

besides, according to g, no one can understand what you are saying anyway, and we cannot do Anything. (after all, we are just machines... right?)

06-21-2000, 10:25 PM
* just because you learned to walk, does it mean that you will never trip or fall?

* in learning to walk, don't you think you may fall once or twice?

* you don't have to get shot to learn how to shoot, but does learning how to shoot mean that you will never get shot?
-how often do people start shooting at each other in order to learn how to shoot?
your analogy made very little sense.

06-22-2000, 12:43 AM
Hey everybody.
Whas up?

Before I respond to anything, I just want to say that I am really enjoying this discussion. Everybody has been real positive, and has had something productive to say. I appreciate everybody's imput. I didn't expect this discussion to generate this many replies, but I am thankful for what has been said so far.

Now, I will respond to the most recent posts, which were written by MaFuYee.

Ouspensky works have really opened my eyes in a lot of ways. I spent a year and a half reading "Miraculaous." I really enjoyed it.
Where Ouspensky helped me as far as MA is concerned is he pointed out to me how many human beings live their lives. After about three months, I made the connection that many, if not all martial artist, as well as human being in general, fight the same way. So what I did was I tested my theory. I figured if Ouspensky was right, I should be able to walk right up to my sparring partner and slap him in the face without him offering any defense, or if he did it would be negligible. I'll be ****ed if Ouspensky wasn't right. I purposely sparred with the best, most skilled person in my school. Six times I slapped this person and no matter what they did, I always hit them.

So being the good scientist (Ha Ha), I tested my theory out on other MA's from different schools and systems. Same results.
This lead me to see something about myself, and why I get hit. My God! My mental state was the same as all the rest. I wondered what I could do to change that. I read further into the book, and Ouspensky personally did an exercise that I superimposed onto my fighting. To be honest, I got hit A LOT when I first started to do it, but it wasn't because the exercise was faulty. It was because I kept lapsing into that bad mental state. I started doing this two years ago. Now, I'll get hit maybe once or twice.

And as far as 'dreaming about being awake' and needing a group, ever heard of mass delusions.

I'm not trying to delude myself here. I am not claiming any type sucess in anything that Ouspensky writes about. What I am claiming is to have found that, in a verifiable way, what Ouspensky said in his book was true.

As far as Iron Shirt training is concerned, I must concede my point, or at least revise it. True Iron Shirt was practiced by top MA's for the time that they would be hit. With that ability they could withstand a convential strike, Chi Strike, Pressure point strike. On the other side of that though, I dare any one to try to hit one of those guys. It is very difficult, I've tried.

For example, my sifu's sifu. One day he was giving a seminar about what this discussion is about. He made this statement, "Your ultimate goal as a MA, as far as your fighting ability is concerned, is to be so skilled that no one ever hits you." Like you MaFuYee, I thought, this guy must be nuts. So did everybody else. I know because we all laughed our asses off. I Asked him to prove it. He did. Not just against me, but several other tenured blackbelts. We did not attacke him one at a time. We collapsed on this dude. Long story short, we looked like the keystone cops.

Another example, same sifu. He was giving a lecture at another seminar. He made the same statement. One of the blackbelts told him he was full of ****. The blackbelt then asked if he could try. Sifu said yes. The Man came up, and the sifu turned his head away to say something to the crowd. the blackbelt, sensing that he was at an advantage because sifu wasn't looking, tried to sucker punch him. Sifu turned around, blocked the punch, and slapped the man in his face. Sifu said, "I like you. You're a dirty son of a gun."

I asked him how he developed this skill. You know what he told me, "Go read In search of the Miraculous." Oh, by the way, this particualr sifu also has developed an iron shirt.

And by saying that I, or any one, cannot get hit (which is not what I said, I said you shouldn't be hit) does not imply that I can defeat anyone in a combat situation. Ouspensky and my sifu's sifu are good, but I'll be ****ed if they can dodge bullets.

As far as becoming a professional boxer, I think you've read too much into my idea here. I don't think I've ever said that I, personnally, cannot be hit. I said realistically, if you wrap your head around the idea, you can develop the skill. Plus, I think MA for the purpose of getting rich really defeats the purpose. How many MA master (real one's) who you know would beat the crap out of any pro-boxer do you find in the ring. I think they have a little more self-respect and respect for others than that.

I am not proposing any magic, voodoo, Wicca, hypnosis (self or otherwise), Etc. It has a little to do with meditiation, but what I am proposing can be achieved without it. I am really trying to get us to understand how our minds work when we fight so that we can become better at what we do. So I would appreciate it if no one else says "You can't come up with some magic formula. . ." This is not magic. This is self-mastery.

As far as your other posts. I never said that once you learn to walk you would never fall. I said you shouldn't fall. If I said anything else, please forgive me.

And yes in learning to walk you will fall once or twice, but I believe I was talking about after you learn to walk.

Not having to get shot to learn to shoot is just my way of saying you don't have to get you @$$ kicked to learn how to fight.That's one way of doing it, but I don't recommend it. I have had several students who say to me before sparring, "Now don't hold back. I need to take a few good shots to learn how to do this." My response is you don't have to get shot to learn how to shoot. So, in that context it does make sense. If we were just talking about shooting, no it doesn't make very much sense.

Once again, I'm having a great time. Keep'em coming.

Water Dragon
06-22-2000, 01:06 AM
I don't think MaFuYee meant anything by his comments. He probably just wants to iron your shirt.

HaHAAA /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

06-22-2000, 01:22 AM
No offense was taken by Mafuyee's post. I hope none was given by myself. I just want to have a good dicussion here.


06-22-2000, 01:24 AM
perhaps i missed it...
what is this state of mind that enables you to 'not get hit'(?)

also, i am assuming, that you are assuming the person has already learned some martial technique.

the only thing that i can say about my state of mind when i find i was able to pull off a technique perhaps better than i was previously able to was that there was kind of like an instant of 'nothing'... kind of like when you get clocked... only without the pain...(haha) i feel somewhat like a 3rd person observer... there is nothing else going on in my head that i was aware of... and the technique wasn't premeditated, rather, it just came out... and time seemed to slow down. - there wasn't any anger, or fear, etc. ...

it is very simmilar to the feeling/mental state i get into before i do a break.
i have been practicing iron palm for a year and a half... and it is very interesting... i know whether the brick will break before i hit it... (while hand is on the way down.)
there is a feeling of total relaxation, and total focus... it never seems to break if a thought/tension enters my mind, while my hand is on the way down.

i would be curious to know what specific technique you speak of in ouspensky's book...
as far as i remember, he did a lot of describing of yogic type exercises, but none in any detail... and there were also a bunch of general techniques, e.g. "alarm clock" etc. - can you be more specific please.

*over a year to read 'miraculous'?!?!
(**** i pounded that thing out in 3 weeks! it would have been much less if it weren't for this pesky 9-5 thing.)

*you should check out works by carlos castaneda ... very entertaining, and in the same vein as ouspensky.

06-22-2000, 08:53 AM
Thanx for your reply, I appreciate it.
I guess I'm going to have to let the cat out of the bag to move this thread along. Ouspensky alludes to the fact that the majority of human beings live in a state of conscious sleep. The are physically awake, but mentally they are not. You describe the situation perfectly. You could be sparring and WHAM! Out of nowhere you get punched or kicked. Now in your mind, in my experience, at one moment you saw your just standing there, then next moment you felt a sting, then saw a hand or foot go back.

I then realized that when this happens people totally unaware of where where they are and/or what I was doing. Many times I found myself gettting hit while I was planning my next attack. Other times, I found myself seeing the strike coming from its inception, but did absolutlely nothing to stop it. It even looked like it was coming in slow motion. Other times I found myself focussing on what strike my opponent was going to throw next. I would get Hit.

This is the exercise from the book that I applied. Ouspensky talks about opening your awarenes to try to take in everything you can with your senses. So what I did was While sparing I used my peripheral vision so that I could see every part of my opponent. Now, when my opponent moves I am aware of it and I can evade or block. Doesn't matter what he does.

The only thing I was trying to get people to see is that most of us fight in a state of conscious sleep.

Think about it this way. Kicking is one of the most telegraphed strikes a person can throw. The body mechnics involed give it away every time. But how many times do you see people getting kicked. What amazes me is the fact that people get kicked in the head, and can't defend it. The one explaination for this is that the person is totally unaware of him/herself and what is going on around them.

So this is how Ouspensky helped me with fighting. And that is why people get hit. The mental state is simply awareness. Oh, I too, could have read Ouspensky's book in a month or two, but I purposely re-read something and spent some time verifying through trial and error what the book said.
THis is something I do with all books like Ouspenky's


[This message has been edited by kungfukid (edited 06-22-2000).]

06-22-2000, 05:57 PM
I don't know if it was just me, but this post irked me from its inception. Just one of those thangs. Anyways, now that the cat's out of the bag, I feel compelled to respond.

"So this is how Ouspensky helped me with fighting." I'm glad it helped you.

"And that is why people get hit." I disagree. It is not why people get hit. It might be why some people get hit, and why some people get hit occassionally (not presuming they are unhittable- I'm sorry, I don't care who you are. You can be smacked upside the head.). But, it is your explanation for why people get hit. That's good to an extent. We should all have principles to guide us and that make us work through them.

"The mental state is simply awareness." This I agree with. But it will come with due intelligence and lessons taught only through experience.

I merely have a difference in opinion.

06-22-2000, 10:07 PM
Thanx for your reply,
I appreciate it. I understand your being irked by this thread. I knew it would irk someone. It irked me when I first heard the statement three years ago. It irked me so much that I wanted to prove it wrong. In trying to do so, I , at least for myself, proved it to be true.

The way think about it now is kind of like this, there are some in the MA's that set higher goals than others and study and practice to achieve them and do. When they try to share those goals with others in the MA, the others reject them because their goals were dictated by the limits of the known.

Look at Bruce Lee with the JKD concept (NOT STYLE). When he called traditional martial arts "Organized Dispair" everybody thought he was nuts. He wasn't nuts, he just set higher goals for himself. Everybody else set their goals by what was known.

Now, here comes some crazy dude calling himself Kungfukid who says it is possible to fight and not get hit. Not claiming to be able to do it himself, but having seen someone achieve that goal and demonstrazte it on multiple ocassions. Again, this person set his goals higher than what was known. We've all seen fights. We've seen people get hit. Very good fighters. But I have seen and experienced the next level. A level that very few people know or even think about. Why? Because very few of us are trailblazers. Alomst all of us are pathfinders.

I respect your opinion, nospam. I respect many of the things you have said in other posts. My opinion, experience is different, so I'll may say things that seem totally irrational at times, but I never say anything that I haven't verified for myself.

Hope to hear from you all soon.


06-22-2000, 11:00 PM
so, basically it sounds to me like you were able to 'realise' for yourself, a little bit of what you have probably read about martial arts your whole life.
most people know that martial arts and meditation/buddhism/taoism go hand in hand, but the why may have been a little unclear.
someone can read a perfectly wonderful explanation, but until it is experienced for ones self, it really means little.
-what you have been talking about goes to the heart of martial arts.
-that is why holding postures like wu chi, or horse stance are so important.
it's not just to build up the legs, and rooting. the mind is far more important.
-how else do you think it possible that someone hold a horse stance for an hour, if they cannot completely focus their minds(?)
-also, speaking in terms of chi, one must learn to first settle it, as g states, before they can solidify it. this can be done through rigorous horse stance training...
only very few are taught properly, and even if they are told, chances are that they alone, do not have the willpower to follow through... hence the need for a teacher.
(kinda like those people who pay a personal trainer $50 and hour to tell them to do pushups and situps.)

also, don't fall into the trap of thinking, just because you realised something, and it makes perfect sense to you, that other will understand. (hence g warns not to tell anyone about what you are doing... remember the bit about language, and how no 2 people understand the same thing in the same way.)
g warned that people would not understand, especially because no one wants to hear that they are machines, or that they can do nothing, or whathave you.

-i believe the ultimate goal of martial arts is enlightenment... but it isn't going to happen in a year or two... it's a lifetime goal, and even still your chances are next to zero. but all that can be done is to give 100%

* what you were talking about, was nothing more than being in the present moment; an integral part of any meditation practice.
(e.g. observing the breath)
people laugh when they hear that samurais trained in the art of flower arrangement, and tea ceremonies, etc. but they had a purpose, and that was the cultivation of their minds, which could for them easily mean the difference between life and death.

*i thought you were talking about a specific technique... be in the present moment... easier said than done. (esp. under duress.)

*remember real knowledge is scarce, and it is only for the very few. it cannot be for the masses.

*i think there is much in that book that has yet to be tied together. believe me, i am going through the same thing.
everytime i try to tell someone about my newfound 'revalations' it always backfires.
i am almost to the point where i realised it's better to keep my mouth shut about certain things. (almost) haha!
it's a lot to digest, but to remeber not to focus too much on one part of the teachings, it must be understood (at least tried to be understood) as a whole unit, as all parts relate to each other.

don't stop searching... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

06-23-2000, 01:09 AM
Thanx for your reply, I appreciate it.

I respect G a whole lot. But like many human beings he was a living contradiction. He said that true knowledge was found by few, which is true, and when the found it the should not tell others what they had found because they would not accept it, nor could they. Yet he had this knowledge shared it with Ouspensky, who the set up groups to share it with others. I understand his premise though. However, G did not follow his own advice. Had he, we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

My take on this is that if I have something that may help someone, even though G says that that is not possible, I share it. Being a Christian minister sort of puts me at odds on some points that G makes. If they don't not accept it there is nothing I can do. Even G says that information can only be given, you canot make people use it. Bible kind of says the same thing. Jesus told his disciple to go into towns and villiges with the gospel. If people did not accept it, he told them to shake the dust from their clothes and move on. This is kind of the approach I use with MA. Most people I talk to I find that I am talking galaxies over their heads (Not tooting my own horn, just an observation). So all I do is give them What I experienced and let them do with it what they will. No harm, No foul.

Yes, being in the present. I couldn't quite put my finger on what G called. But that is it. It is very difficult to do under duress, but that is something that needs to be overcome also. My sifu's sifu said something that shocked me at first, but helped me to understand the root of his ability. He said,"you will never be a skilled fighter unless you overcome your fear of death. Once you've done that it doesn't matter what happens, win or lose."

If figured what he meant was once you over come your fear of death, there is no hinderance to being in the resent anymore.
Just my opinion.

Anyway, thanx for your reply.


06-23-2000, 02:24 AM
again, you're neglecting parts of his teachings... remember, there are 4 categorizations of people, according to g... you are not taking into account that not all people are on the same level.
and later in the book he tells them, now that they have reached a certain stage, they must go out and try to tell 'people' (not meaning just anyone.)
also, he says that it is not a good thing to try to tell someone who is not ready, as it can turn them away from it forever...
again, it comes down to not being so dazzled by your new perspective on things... perhaps you are still a bit disoriented...
try reading castaneda's stuff. he says the same thing, just from a different angle.

... christian minister... the way of the monk(!)

ever study 'grey crane' (karate based on the teaching of jesus christ! hahaha)
ever seen that?
i always wondered, how effective can it be if you're always turning the other cheek? haha!

06-23-2000, 09:53 AM
I'm sure with all that turning it looks a lot like drunken style...I'm guessing I could pull a water-to-wine joke out of that but I'll spare everyone /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Your posts (as well as MFY's replies) have been most informative and enlightening. I have to admit I was waiting for the part where you post "Yes, I have found the way to never be hit again...and if you send $150 to me for my videos and books, I can show you how!" Thank goodness you have more noble intentions...

A religious studies professor at my university once told the class that the aim of Buddhism was essentially to derive maximum experience from any given moment, that someone who has acheived a higher level of consciousness is aware of all things at all times. But in the beginning you had to learn to strip away all awareness to learn not what you were aware of, but rather *why* you were aware. Maybe your revelation, KFK, was a step in this direction.

Please keep the posts coming you two. I really enjoy them.

06-24-2000, 05:14 PM
Hey, everybody!
Sorry, I haven't replied in a couple of days.
I'm moving to Florida soon and My schedule has not allowed for much internet time.

Anyway, Waxwood, Thanx for your reply and your compliment. I sorry that I came across as a snake oil salesman. I'll try to be less like that in future posts.

Awareness is an interesting subject. I have developed many exercises to try to enhance my awareness and I'll share a few with you here. The first exercise I do is to develop visual awareness. What I do is I'll go to a library pick, out a book, and start reading it. As I read, I use my peripheral vision to see all I can that is going on around me. At the same time, I continue to read the book. This helps to develop what my sifu calls "split attention." You never really focus on one particular thing. It's a fun exercise because it is hard to maintain split attention without it being interupted by someone/thing.

Another drill that I do, I do in crowded places. It has to do with auditory awareness.
When in a crowed place I try to hear everything that is going on includind a converstation I maybe having. Again I do not focus on any one sound, and It is hard to maintain.

Well, gotta get ready for church.


06-30-2000, 09:28 AM

Perhaps I'm not quite getting the import of this realization of yours. Isn't what you are talking about simply "awareness?" It would seem intuitively obvious that someone who is in a fighting situation, etc. should be maintaining a state of supreme awareness. Forgive me for "lowering" the literary references here, but in the novels I've read featuring people trained in MA, etc., they are always described as being totally aware of everything around them. I'd think this would be basic stuff. Curiously enough, I've heard (perhaps erroneously) that the test for 2nd (or 3rd?) degree black belt in togakure-ryu ninjitsu was this: the student sits with eyes closed. Someone stands somewhere around them with a sword. The student has to avoid the sword when it strikes.


P.S. This is my first post!

08-08-2000, 05:17 PM

08-10-2000, 06:28 AM
Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it.
Your response is quite common. I get it all the time when I talk about it. you are absolutely right, this does seem like basic stuff. You do hear and read about how trained martial artists are supposed to have a heightened sense of awareness. But I'm here to tell ya, most of them aren't even aware of themselves. I've been in the MA's for 14 years and I just became aware of how unaware I was. I know people who have been in the MA's decades longer than I have and they look at me like I have some psychological disorder when i tell them that the fight in a state of sleep.
So, on the one hand you're right. It is something that people who train in the ma's should develop. Unfortunately, a lot of them do not.


08-15-2000, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shenden:
Other times, it is to gain something bigger. For example, sometimes I let myself get hit (a glancing blow if I can help it), to let me get in to a better position/open up an enemies defences
Just some thoughts. Anyone got any others?

Wow! I'd say your either very brave or very foolish...one of the two. You either spar with weak people or you're made of concrete. You've got alot of guts intentionally taking a hit.
I know guys who could knock me out cold if I took a hit. I'm not just talking about your good old boxing punch to the chin either. I'm talking about strikes to the abdomen, neck, head, ribs...all over!
You guys must not use pressure point striking. Even without it...you could get knocked out by taking a hit, especially in the head.
You've got some guts, bro!

Black Jack
08-30-2000, 12:05 AM
Here is the mystical answer to your question about not getting hit in a fight...sparring...whatever.


Though no matter how hard you practice it will never give you a perfect success rate as real fights are always changing range and motion so be ready to take a few now and then as their is no perfect solution to this question as each situation is different.

Just be aware and practice your fighting skills...not only your fighting skills but your attributes as well... endurance, speed, power, sensitivity, speed, balance, mobility, timing, coordination and agility.


mad taoist
02-25-2001, 03:46 PM
I know this is irrelevant, but a friend of mine has done a qi excercise were his sifu punched him while his back was turned and he turned around and caught it or parried it... so this stuff does exist!

'If we do not go within, we go without'.

02-26-2001, 07:41 AM
I havent contact fought since junior high, but I'd say the reason I got hit then was because I was so enraged with anger that I didnt even think about blocking..