Something strange about taiji

[backbreaker]

In taiji most of what you do seems to be based off of the solo form . The form can contain alot of different fighting combinations , which can seem quite complicated. Often one move is a whole sequence of attacks as well as defenses. What I'm wondering about is why there is no 2 man form in taiji. Is it because the form is designed to fight multiple people? Is the form mainly for training different energies from different directions? Is there no need for such a form? Instead you have push hands routines which seem more freestyle . Like in xingyi you might learn the 5 element or animals , and them do them freestyle according to the opponents attacks.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Depending on the linage and teacher there are 2 people forms taught.

[Snake/Crane]

The Solo forms are the basics for all other training, when you have a question; on what’s correct, we usually go to the form for the answer. This includes 2 person drills, push hands, and 2 person fighting sets.
There are a few versions on Yang fighting sets. My teacher used to change the routine at times to introduce other options and expand on ones thinking. They are usually deigned to allow for a continuous flow, thus sweeps and takedowns and not done. The fight should flow continuously without hesitation from one move to the next, just like the solo set. When performed by two equally skilled people, it can move at a very fast pace. The fighting set can help bridge the gap, between push hands and free sparing. One learns one side first and then the second side. You get to see the attack and neutralization for the same move. Acquiring skill in the 8 energies and 5 direction takes time utilizing the practice of all the Tai Chi training routines.
People who don’t practice two person fighting sets, use other similar 2 person drills, there just not as long an maybe not considered a form. I have found the fighting sets to be educational, challenging, and fun.

[Syd]

There the small and large San Sau in Yang Style... we use that. There are two person drills in Da Lu, pushing hands (When you move around allot and attack and defend putting in strikes) the same with double push hands. There are two person short staff (Bo) san sau etc etc etc....

Syd

[Repulsive Monkey]

Taiji has always had 2 person forms.

[scotty1]

Yeah I think we have two man forms.

[Kaitain(UK)]

the two man form can be really quite limiting if you aren't careful - it is showing you merely one possibility for parts of the form. it doesn't mean that it is the only application for that movement, nor even the best - just a suggestion on what you _could_ do

I think that application is best developed through free form pushing hands - it can be amazing how applications appear without any conscious volition; the key is to analyse what you've done immediately and then work it deliberately - then go back to the form and put the intention of the application into the movement. Obviously you have to drill application once you've got it - but I believe that a good method is to find it yourself.

Obviously I train at a school where this is the norm so I don't have experience of being taught applicaton and then drilling it - the few times we have done it I have felt 'wrong' unless it's an application that I had already developed through free-form...

[Syd]

I'd agree with that, this is called internalizing. The use of free form anything, whether it be push hands, da lu, san sau both small & large, long har chuan and other methods are merely training devices to get you to a stage where these things become instinctive and are not treated like set moces that you perform for given circumstances.

The end result is to be able to roll into one thing and then another without having to think about it. It should be subconcious and automatic and stem from being entirely sung...

You still need all of the above though before you get to the latter so it's a moot point really.

Syd

[backbreaker]

I think the idea of internalizing the movements and finding the energies on your own instinctively , makes alot of sense. There have been times where someone would touch my arm with their hand , and I would automatically just do a spiral movement without thinking about it. Sometimes I have hurt peoples hands by accident and they would say it would hurt their bones or joints where they touched me

[Repulsive Monkey]

It makes even better sense to get someone to teach you how to internalise as then it will cut many years worth of guess work down to many months of solid reality.

[Kaitain(UK)]

RM - I'm not sure what you are saying - how can you be "taught" to internalise? Someone may show me an application that works for them - but when I try and do it, it just doesn't sit right. Yet in free pushing hands I may use the same movement for a completely different application that 'suits' me better.

I guess a combination of both is the way most people work anyway - there are plenty of applications I get shown that work just fine and I can internalise. If you think how many applications there are though, the only way to get an in depth understanding is to find them for yourself. If that is not done then I fear one may end up merely mimicking another's art, rather than developing one's own. I'm mindful of the story about the student learning the sword form here - you know the one I mean?#

Syd - I understand what you're saying about not going to the ground if you're taiji is good enough. However, I take the approach that mine isn't currently good enough so in the meantime I shall fill the gaps to cover my shortfalls (forgive the pun). :)

Paul

[Syd]

I agree that it doesn't hurt to know some groundfighting, just incase one ever does go to ground. The guys I train with once a week and myself are working on allot of applications, shoui jiao and chin na right now and Taiji does have it's own throws and fast wrestling. You have to learn your stand up grappling inside out though and train to counter people who want to take you to ground... this is what we are training for right now.

You may trip over by accident in a fight and then a grappler is on you. Chin na can work on the ground and certain Taiji principles can work on the ground also, but I really think your better off learning to be a better Taiji fighter than trying to learn how to be an average grappler and an average Taiji fighter. If you learn to fight correctly in your range and you learn to control that distance, train every application and eventuality for an attacker coming at you, there is no reason why you should be taken to ground.

If a grappler charges at you and the circumstance is inopportune, you move around and get out of the way until you control the distance and have the advantage to fight at your best distance using your own range. I know this may not come easily but why train in several systems when you have a perfectly superb system right in front of you to train in? All you need to do is train hard in your system and learn to control your opponent and how to control the range and distance of a fight.

This will require allot of sparring and trying to get friends or training buddies to really come at you in various attacks and then try applying your Taiji theory in practice and see what works for you best.

Best, Syd

[Kaitain(UK)]

I take the approach that I would rather learn a fully fledged ground grappling system that has been through all of the learning process that I would have to cover myself, and has skilled and experienced practitioners to test myself against.

In my school there are just not the people interested in working that arena - I get fed the "if your taiji is good enough then you won't go to the ground" by most of them. It's their call.

Don't get me wrong - when I trian BJJ I am using Taiji all the time in the stand up phase, and the mind set has enabled me to keep calm even when getting tied up in knots - I haven't freaked out and gassed like a lot of beginners (it didn't stop me getting tapped and choked close to extinction but I did it with dignity ******!).

I have a lot of confidence in my stand up, it's worked in the past. I just like covering the "what if" and I cannot do that within my school. If that had been on offer then I probably wouldn't have gone to BJJ - so I'm preaching in favour of the only thing that is available to me :) I think both work very well for the purpose of street defence - in the UK especially it's very unlikely to get involved in a row with an Experienced Grappler (TM)

[Syd]

Kait,

I take the approach that I would rather learn a fully fledged ground grappling system that has been through all of the learning process that I would have to cover myself, and has skilled and experienced practitioners to test myself against.

Again I totally relate to what your saying and respect your right and interest to cover the shortfall where you feel it most. I was actually pointing out that Shoui Jiao is Chinese Fast Wrestling which is very much a part of the Taiji system of fighting along with Chin Na. So you needn't have gone to BJJ to get what you needed, but again if your school doesn't go there (girlfriend ;)), then the big obvious one these days will always be BJJ.

A guy I know rolls twice a week in BJJ and enoys it, but he himself admits that BJJ is more sport than anything else and there is a large reliance on Gi's in order to get moves on, as well as the fact that all the starting positions are on the ground to begin with. Mind you there are varying stages in the BJJ system so...

If you get a chance try and check out Chinese Fast Wrestling (Dog fighting) or Shoui Jiao...

Best, Syd

[brassmonkey]

lol its good to see your not just misinformed on tcc

[Syd]

;) It's nice to see you still haven't given up trying to get my attention. I must be doing something right. I am relating what friends in BJJ have relayed to me, you supply nothing, as usual, but land on everything like a fly laying maggots. *L*

This is your contribution to every discussion... it seems you think everything is sh!t accept what *you* have to say...which as usual is nothing. *LMAO*

[brassmonkey]

Syd there is quite a few posters who I believe what they post. My problem with y9ou and so many like you is that you post bull**** you hear or read somewhere. There's no work....its all catch words and phrases that are empty.

[Shooter]

Syd's clueless. :p

[Syd]

The feelings mutual regarding the both of you. You offer nothing of your own but merely hang your crap out there as though you've got answers... your both full of it. :)

If you were really about the issues or the *work* as you put it, you'd play the ball and not the man. The fact that you direct your hang ups away from the questions and answers given, but instead to me directly, is indicative of your low life personalities... yes I know, there the only one's you've got.

If you've got anything useful to say then by all means argue the point. it seems your not actually capable though. *L*

*lotsa love*

[brassmonkey]

lol who am I to argue with someone who thinks he can jump to avoid sweeps. There's no changing you. I'm typing for those who read this, not YOU. Your going to have to waste at least 3 years training b4 you might stop chasing fantasies.

[Syd]

Look, if you think you know the application for jumps as something other than leg sweeps or weapon sweeps than
by all means enlighten us all Einstein! *L*

The other thing is, what form are you actually talking about? We may well be discussing entirely different forms. Something else is that you have yet to discuss your own background, your style (If any), how long you have trained and what makes you think you've got the answers but never seem to offer them up?

Sounds like you just want to play bluff poker all day! Put up or shut up! ;)

[brassmonkey]

I stay anonymous for my own reasons. Judge me on what I type, not some lineage that should make it easier.

Hey I told you earlier I don't know why the hell someone would have a jump in the older Yang form. Especially since they were up north in Shui Chiao country I can't see it being used to avoid a sweep, its just not practical even with superior listening skill/spiralling power nd it sure wasnt used to knock soldiers off theyre horses either if that's what your thinking next.

[Syd]

Well thanks for a direct answer that speaks to the issue, atlast. I think it would be quite apt for the northern chinese who had a long range fighting system due to their height and stature to leap when avoiding leg sweeps, or sweeps from staffs etc. This is indeed the application I have been taught in Old Yang Staff work, so if you claim not to know, and you won't state your identity or who and what your training is evidenced to support, why should I believe you over my teachers?

I actually have no beef with *you* personally at all. But I find it a bit convenient that you are apt to attack my idea's and the idea's I have been taught, widely supported by many others around me, and not be open about who you are and what your background is. It's easy to criticize others when you bring nothing to the table.

I have the respect of other persons who's advice and knowledge I value and respect, these are people who are out in the open and laying down their credentials. These are people who have published written works on the Martial Arts and Taijiquan and these are people who are friends.

If I don't have your respect or support for anything I say, I'm not feeling the loss. I just wish you would understand that this is a forum for different opinions and not absolutes. I claim to be nothing more than a student of Taijiquan who greatly enjoys the thrust and parry of analysis regarding this great art. I'm not interested in petty sniping and personal attacks.

By all means let's agree then to forever disagree and live and let live. I think any reasonable person might be willing to consent to that.

Best, Syd

[brassmonkey]

cool. Maybe I was motivated by some agenda trolling or ego to some extent, if so I apologize.

[Kaitain(UK)]

back on topic then :)


A guy I know rolls twice a week in BJJ and enoys it, but he himself admits that BJJ is more sport than anything else and there is a large reliance on Gi's in order to get moves on, as well as the fact that all the starting positions are on the ground to begin with. Mind you there are varying stages in the BJJ system so...

I don't see it as more sport than anything else. I train under one of Rickson's instructors (dazzled by his aura :) for the UGers amongst you) and we work a lot of street based application. Amazingly we even stay on our feet for most of that - a lot of the takedowns can work knee on stomach as the finish point

We don't start from the floor except when we are training a specific technique - transitions etc. We spend half the lesson on the standup and take downs and then the second half on the ground work that extrapolates from the takedowns. I thought that was how everyone was taught - it's certainly the Gracie way as I understand it.

With regards to the gi - I take issue with that. You use the gi to learn leverage, and I don't know about you but I tend to fight people who are clothed so it's hardly impractical.... At an advanced level the students in my school train no gi as well - but there's no point doing that until you've got the fundamentals down (I've only been training about 2 years and off and on through that period due to persistent injuries - getting old :)) - no gi is extremely technical and I don't think I'd enjoy learning just from that point.

Obviously we also compete in BJJ competitions and a few guys are amateur MMA fighters - but that's not a focus for our school.

[Syd]

The guy I spoke of has done comps also. I did say there were various stages in the training (allowing for the more street oriented BJJ rather than comp) and when I referred to the starting positions on the ground I was actually talking about another guy (my mistake) who relayed to me that this was allot of where the training was at when he last attended. Clearly if BJJ is working for you, who am I to argue.

Best, Syd

[Kaitain(UK)]

I hope I didn't come across as snapping at you - I was just correcting a couple of presuppositions you had made :)

Good training to you
Paul

[Shooter]

Syd, you showing your ass doesn't make me a low-life. :p


I was actually pointing out that Shoui Jiao is Chinese Fast Wrestling which is very much a part of the Taiji system of fighting along with Chin Na. So you needn't have gone to BJJ to get what you needed, but again if your school doesn't go there (girlfriend ), then the big obvious one these days will always be BJJ.

A guy I know rolls twice a week in BJJ and enoys it, but he himself admits that BJJ is more sport than anything else and there is a large reliance on Gi's in order to get moves on, as well as the fact that all the starting positions are on the ground to begin with. Mind you there are varying stages in the BJJ system so...

If you get a chance try and check out Chinese Fast Wrestling (Dog fighting) or Shoui Jiao...

None of what I quoted above is very truthful at all. And it certainly isn't your own reality. That's already enough BS to see that you have very little understanding about TCC's shuai-chiao component.

I only know of one TCC school which has a ground-fighting set as comprehensive as BJJ. So, your first paragraph is pretty much bull$#!+. Your second paragraph just perpetuates some misleading notions about BJJ. Maybe it's second-hand info which you're just relaying here, but you still sound pretty clueless. Hey, no big deal.

The last line in your post alludes to Dog Boxing (not "fighting'). And then you differentiate CFW and Shuai Chiao when you suggest in your first paragraph that they're one and the same. I'm not debating whether they are or not - your first paragraph and last line just seem a bit contradictory.

Anyway, what do you know of Dog Boxing? Where have you seen it being taught or practiced?

[Syd]

None of what I quoted above is very truthful at all. And it certainly isn't your own reality.

How would you know what my reality is or isn't? Saying it isn't very trusthfull is a weird statement to make. It's like saying it isn't very sunny. If you disagree with something I have said and care to correct me or offer a different view then go right ahead. But just making blanket statements and assuming that has meaning without qualifying is useless.

That's already enough BS to see that you have very little understanding about TCC's shuai-chiao component.

That's your opinion and not much else...

I only know of one TCC school which has a ground-fighting set as comprehensive as BJJ. So, your first paragraph is pretty much bull$#!+

So you know every TCC school and system in the world and are ontop of every curriculum are you? Shoui Jiao is a component of my own school, though I train alone these days and with a few guys in my own system.

We are trying to focus on CFW because it is understood to be implicit in many of the throws and takedowns within the applications of TCC. It may be the case that CFW isn't as comprehensive as BJJ, but I have yet to hear anyone make that claim.

My point was that when people in Chinese arts want groundfighting they often look to the Japanese arts like Judo, Aikido, BJJ etc etc etc. I was trying to shine a little light on the fact that there is a groundfighting and fast wrestling component which to my knowledge is quite comprehensive and is implicit within TCC. If you disagree then be a gentleman and debate the issue sanely rather than popping your head out and shouting bull***** then dissapearing again.

Your second paragraph just perpetuates some misleading notions about BJJ. Maybe it's second-hand info which you're just relaying here, but you still sound pretty clueless. Hey, no big deal.

I did say there were different stages in the teaching of BJJ to allow for the fact that what I described may not be the norm or the harder core aspects of BJJ. The guys I talk to who are into BJJ told me what I shared and one of them has fought comps and loves his BJJ as well as being an Internal Arts guys as well. If I am misled then by all means I am open to correction but again you seem to be more about arrogance than experience. it says allot...

The last line in your post alludes to Dog Boxing (not "fighting'). And then you differentiate CFW and Shuai Chiao when you suggest in your first paragraph that they're one and the same. I'm not debating whether they are or not - your first paragraph and last line just seem a bit contradictory. Anyway, what do you know of Dog Boxing? Where have you seen it being taught or practiced?

So your basis for calling my entire angle bull**** and me clueless is that "it seems a bit contradictory"? I brought the idea of Dog Fighting/Boxing in because I was offering the idea that there are Chinese wrestling arts.

It is my understanding that Dog Boxing (I have seen it written as fighting) is a Shaolin groundfighting system. In much the same way that there is Taiji Chin Na and Shaolin Chin Na I actually think they can all be dove tailed into TCC. It was much the same thing as mentioning CFW, Shoui Jiao and Dog Boxing in the same breath.

I believe they would all be very similar systems and infact there are two books printed that has Chinese Fast Wrestling and Shoui Jiao on the cover in the same breath. I personally have not seen Dog Boxing but I didn't say I had. It was merely a lead offered regarding Chinese groundfighting techniques. I said "check it out", which means look into it, do some research, it may be of value to your groundfighting research.

Okay? Syd

[wiz cool c]

Forms, applications, push hand patterns than free style push hands. Some schools also spar using internal principles. This is how Tai Chi becomes a martial art.