WC vesus Kyokushin

[Phenix]

http://www.warlinkbbs.com/logo/vidio/dishou.asf

[pseudoswitch]

Ah, the slapfest video. Great stuff. *chuckle*chuckle* :D

[edward]

which one is the wing chun?

[Brithlor]

I was wondering that myself :). I honestly thought it was the guy on the right in the beginning...

[Brithlor]

Just curious, since I see so many martial art vs martial art clips, but would anyone be interested in seeing 2 newbies (of different martial arts) fighting each other? Just to see how lower level sparring of two different arts look... ei; san soo vs wing chun.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Brithlor
Just curious, since I see so many martial art vs martial art clips, but would anyone be interested in seeing 2 newbies (of different martial arts) fighting each other? Just to see how lower level sparring of two different arts look... ei; san soo vs wing chun.

Not That new bies. and ofcorse it is easier to say that to do. Until one is in the ring...

[Phenix]

Originally posted by edward
which one is the wing chun?

When WC was forced by Kyokushi to adapt.. there is no WC.
Same with when WC was forced by bjj to adapt there is no WC.

So what is WC?

[Brithlor]

"Not That new bies. and ofcorse it is easier to say that to do. Until one is in the ring..."

I'm alittle confused with what you mean... you mean "No, they're not interested in that, newbies"? Or "As long as they aren't THAT newbie!". Just curious, lol.

Also, I don't see anything wrong with a wing chun person adapting to the situation... I mean, the people practicing whatever martial art are not the art themselves... so even if they don't do 100% wing chun in combat or sparring as long as it helped their combat skills I see no problem.

But I think the person you were replying to ment; which one is the guy who trained in wing chun?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Brithlor
"Not That new bies. and ofcorse it is easier to say that to do. Until one is in the ring..."

I'm alittle confused with what you mean... you mean "No, they're not interested in that, newbies"? Or "As long as they aren't THAT newbie!". Just curious, lol.

Also, I don't see anything wrong with a wing chun person adapting to the situation... I mean, the people practicing whatever martial art are not the art themselves... so even if they don't do 100% wing chun in combat or sparring as long as it helped their combat skills I see no problem.

But I think the person you were replying to ment; which one is the guy who trained in wing chun?


New or old...... doesn't matter, it is a part of reality that is what WC needs to face.

Wrong or right.... doesn't matter, when one cannot take advantage of one's art which one train everyday. That already a disadvantage. When a horse lost its legs and eagle lost its wings,......

the Kyokushin guy just do what he did everyday in thier dojo.
and it is very white Crane platfrom. Sanchi type of body....

(BJJ guy will also do what they do everyday in thier dojo...)

Where is the WC platform? can daily practice be applied? that is the question one has to ask.


There is a different between don't do or being force out and cannot do.


We have seen two video clips on WC with Kyokushin. and both is not impress at all.

[Brithlor]

Hmm, ok... so which one is the Kyokushin?

I don't get what you're saying... In my opinion if wing chun helps you in some way then that is a good thing... are you saying that if you decide to change anything to fit your own personal style that makes everything you learned in the traditional sense worthles..? I'm really kind of confused what you mean...

"New or old...... doesn't matter, it is a part of reality that is what WC needs to face."

My question was if anyone was interested in seeing a Wing Chun guy fight a San soo guy who both of which have done their respective arts for under 3 years... Because all I see are higher level people fighting I thought it would be interesting to see others skill levels as well....

[Brithlor]

Ah, it makes more sense to me now that you edited it :).

I see what you mean now... so you're saying a BJJ guy practices everything that he will actually use in fighting while a wing chun guy pracitices a lot of useless things that have no real application, and because of little foundation for actual combat they're technique either falls apart or they find themselves forced to change strategies?

If that's what you mean I see that as a valid complaint on any martial art, however I would disagree... Wing chun people seem to not do aswell because they lack either the combat training, conditioning or fighting spirit... Not because their techinques are inherently faulty. Besides, noone is bound to a style, so if they dislike one aspect of wing chun (after thoroughly studying the purpose for it ofcourse) that doesn't mean they have to quit wing chun and take up another martial art to fix thier problem... instead they can simply keep what is effective for them, and do whatever that want with the rest... It doesn't seem like it needs to be an "all or nothing" kind of a thing.

[Ernie]

hendrik
sorry bro but they both suck
one has a thigh kick the other has a side kick , whoopie
neither has good hand s or any concept on foot work range or mobility , god forbid a fake or broken rythem . both heads are wide open ,
they move like pieces of wood
i saw no wing chun or even good boxing in either of them
just looked like bad kick boxing .

sorry bro but i have time in the ring so and i know what skill looks and feels like . that wasn't it

but your right about adaptability ,
but going in with no gaurd or regard of distance is just plain sloppy

[Phenix]

ernie

the kyokushin is doing what normal kyokushin is doing. atleast he uses what his sifu teach him.

as for the wc. the guy in tkd uniform suppose to be from canton china wc school.

my point is instead of judge are they good. the question is :
so that is wc in the ring?
or how is wc supposed to look like in the ring?

[Edmund]

Ha Ha..

Plenty of videos have shown similar.

Are you dreaming.....
Of a Kungfu movie starring Wing Chun....
that has nothing to do with real ring fight videos.
:D

So somehow the Kyokushin can do what he's taught and yet the WC guy can't. All WC guys must be bad learners!

Truth is WC guy:
1. trained WC stuff that is no use in the ring against well matched opponent therefore stuff is unseen.
2. trained stuff (like simple kick and punch) that was some use which did land in the fight.

You take away the head punch you will not see people dropped with a punch to the chest. Not often. No superpowers. They have to kick to win. Even one kick KO is hard. Will WC win with one punch and no stepping?

[Ernie]

hendrick
so that is wc in the ring?
or how is wc supposed to look like in the ring


well i don't think wing chun is going to look the same for everyone since in the end it is very personal

but some basics in body and princilple should be there
controlling center for one ,
that was not there
protecting center
that was not there
economy of motion
that was not there
forward '' eating up space '' taking position
that was not there

and so on
as for how it should look and do you have to abonden it ,
well i personaly use more natural footwork in long range , and i never use a staic wing chun posture but i keep the elements in place facing ,elbow down man sau wu sau just in a slightly more alive fashion.

i have seen gary fight , and he fought professionally , in china and thai land and his wing chun is very clear , relaxed and fluid
now he did adapt the thai thigh kick and elbows when he trained thai fighters ,
but his foundation in wing chun is dominate even when he fires a thigh kick you can see the wing chun striaght body posture .

what you seem to be pointing out is very obvious to me the wing chun fighters rarely have any ring experience and can't adapt there skill to a ring enviroment , instead they echo the style they are facing and so they are destined to lose

that comes from the '' wing chun arrogance '' that most schools promote , now before the flames start
let me explain
how many times have you heard , you don't need to spar , we have a superior system . you don't need conditioning

a fight will only last 3 seconds

these are sales pitches and true in the most basic and one sided street fights but not the mentality you need for the ring or to face a skilled fighter

so you have to ask yourself ''what am i training for ''
if self protection in the street then stick with the basic program
if your thinking of jumping in the ring then put down the donut and get to work , even though you might have a superior skill in the ring conditioning is a major factor
and you must learn to work the ring control the distance , read and lie to your opponent ,
conserve your gas and be patient

off to work :D

[yuanfen]

Hendrik sez:
When WC was forced by Kyokushi to adapt.. there is no WC.
Same with when WC was forced by bjj to adapt there is no WC.

So what is WC?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ernie sez:
well i don't think wing chun is going to look the same for everyone since in the end it is very personal

but some basics in body and princilple should be there
controlling center for one ,
that was not there
protecting center
that was not there
economy of motion
that was not there
forward '' eating up space '' taking position
that was not there
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.Agree with Ernie on this one. Wing chun in action? Dont look for
frozen techniques- look for well internalized wing chun principles
at work--- applying/adapting to the situation at hand.
Even in Sun Tzu- twin principles- know yourself- know your enemy.

2. the "wc guy" did not understand wc principles- not schooled very well wherever he came from. Frozen footwork. Not all wc is coequal. Lots of bad wc out there- wc in name only..

3. When wc principles are well understood- it's nature at work- and you can see flashes of it in non-wc in motion.
Heresy?(mine?)- when Tyson was underCus DAmato's wing--- square bodied, elbows in, center closed, crisp short power. little micro steps to get the inside line- analogous to wc principles in a different activity. You see his recent fights- center open, legs frozen-the Amato shaping is gone with the wind.
Without guidance, misspent enrgy- he is now a tragic and comic caricature of himself. Stuff happens.
BTW if you lookat other D'Amato champion proteges in their prime(
Floyd Patterson, Jose Torres and others) you see square bodied, center closed, feet balanced, steady mobility at work.

[Phenix]

HI Ernie,


well i don't think wing chun is going to look the same for everyone since in the end it is very personal-----E


sure. it is not the same but it is WC.



i have seen gary fight , and he fought professionally , in china and thai land and his wing chun is very clear , relaxed and fluid
now he did adapt the thai thigh kick and elbows when he trained thai fighters ,
but his foundation in wing chun is dominate even when he fires a thigh kick you can see the wing chun striaght body posture .---E


sure, using a thigh kick is still WC. even using axe kick when appropriate time why not?


what you seem to be pointing out is very obvious to me the wing chun fighters rarely have any ring experience and can't adapt there skill to a ring enviroment , instead they echo the style they are facing and so they are destined to lose -------E


Yup. this is what I am bringing up. and you are right.

the so called WC people in that clip, can't even do frontal neutralization or capturelization and he was force out. he was not in control. if you look at the roof top fighting in HK, you can see that WC there was forcing other out while WC stay in the "core control" of fight. he can only using "run and hit" type of fighting. it is not WC because it cannot "stick" in but doing engage and dis-engage taking chance. and that turn out to lose chance....

In this clip, the Kyokushin, stay at the "core control". That is very White Crane SanChin...--- go for core control, center, even they use Thai Kick alots.......IMHO





that comes from the '' wing chun arrogance '' that most schools promote , now before the flames start
let me explain
how many times have you heard , you don't need to spar , we have a superior system . you don't need conditioning ---E


Certainly, some people in every style always like that. I like Kyokushin because it free spar everyday. and applying the technics they learn. basically, how to stay in "core" , guard, thigh kick. those are mininmum. and it is usefull. I believe BJJ also do this type of thing in thier way..... So what does WC do?

by the way, IMHO, by just looking at that WC guy in the clip, one can know his structure is not solid. thus, he cannot stay in the core. see, there is certain "key" in White Crane or Yee Chuan or WC Dna which show how solid the stucture.... and one can spot it just browse an eye with it. look at the clip again to see if you can sport why the WC guy is "not integrated" and is weak to sustain.

and this bring up one thing about the woodern dummy practice.
ONe can spot if the wc is real wc by just looking at the pictures of how one doing dummy. the non wc always "isolate" himself from the dummy. while the wc always "one" with the dummy. Look at the pictures in books, video.., article.. one can "feel" it. see for yourself is the people in the picture keeping a distance ... isolate ... or embrace? without those "embrace" no way is one going to "dance" but will end up as "run and hit" . thus, even CLF has dummy, shao lin has dummy.... lots of style has dummy but there is a different between this dummy and that dummy practice..... in WC, we embrace and become one---- non dual... stick.... not a theory but a natura....IMHO.




a fight will only last 3 seconds

these are sales pitches and true in the most basic and one sided street fights but not the mentality you need for the ring or to face a skilled fighter ----E


Yup.

sure a fight will only last 3 seconds. however can one sustain and keep one in the "core of control"? with what one keep one in the "core of control"? with those flimsy tan sau? with those leading tan leg? with those blind chain punches? while the full body is dis-integrating once in dynamic? IMHO

and who is one's opponent is street fight? some nerds from computer lab who has no idea how to use a screw drive or a drifter who is always in survive ? doesn't even has to be a skill fighter....



so you have to ask yourself ''what am i training for ''
if self protection in the street then stick with the basic program
if your thinking of jumping in the ring then put down the donut and get to work , even though you might have a superior skill in the ring conditioning is a major factor
and you must learn to work the ring control the distance , read and lie to your opponent ,
conserve your gas and be patient ---E


Great points.

My question is always, if one can't do in the ring or sparing, how can one do good in the street?


IMHO,

lesson one, grasphing the "core control"
but before that will the body "integrate or wholesome" if not forget about the "core control" and surely one will become "force to move"

lesson two, counter at the attack, not after the attack. but at the attack. so one doesn't go "run and hit".

Lesson three, if one cannot "control the distance , read and lie to your opponent ,
conserve your gas and be patient " then there is only one resolt. that is fighting power with power and speed with speed.

It doesn't matter one has time, space, lines, doors.... theories in thier mind, those are great but it doesn't work because final analysis is the figthing has been conditionally force to based on Power and Speed. thus, no chance for the weak and slower to beat the power and speed. one doesn't "explain and reason through" thier fight. one was condition to act in the fight if one doesn't "know" the environment. the reason people said, "it happen so fast" that is because one is dull with one's mind and theory. thus, one don't "see." Zen is one see. Zen is one is not in those thought flow. but do it with Mind and body living in that instant. not theory not formulas not preset set up, those are "completed" stuffs. similar to a flowing water which has passed long ago. one never step on the same flowing water twice.


Lesson four, testing how blind one is or still remember those theory....and how is one's time and space... changes with environment..... Go to a horrow movie such as Gotika. sit in it an see if one can stay cool and clear without much intimidate by the sound and vision effect and be able to "accept" or embrace and not rejecting by closing one's eyes and hear.

There is where the "silence" comes in.. the tatagatha's stillness the true emptiness wonderfull existance. see if one can find the silence within the embrace of chaos.

one can train to have chi, or meditation stillnes.. in a control environment of soothing... yoga class.

.... but if one can be shock , blind, and manupulate into emotional in those movies,,,, there is no Samadhi or SAM MO Dei.

chances is. one will be control in the fight. those chi, meditation training become useless. not to mention in a war..

if one lost one's clearity in the movie, will one gain a clear mind in a fight ?

go to a movie is cheap way to find out if your SAM MO DEI or Samadhi or Qigong or .... magic special move works.

IMHO


since I am not a ZEN patriach, I get delude when DiaZ appear. so, don't have Sam mo dei. :D full with MOVEable wisdom :D
and True desire dull complete. :D that is me.

[PaulH]

Thanks, Hendrik! Good WC points! I like to comment that WC specializes especially at close distance- thus the need to short explosive power when fighting.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by PaulH
Thanks, Hendrik! Good WC points! I like to comment that WC specializes especially at close distance- thus the need to short explosive power when fighting.


Hi Paul,

NOw you convice those Zen Zen, silence, emptiness, ...... stuffs have something to do with WCK? hahahaha


It is always when one spread the net, others didn't see what happen. but then when one pull the net, then one see the all.

there is a different between a brick layers and a cathidra builder.

a brick layer has a specific spect, specific diamention, method..... and just lay a brick.

a cathidra builder looks random and chaos until one see the shape of the cathidra. then,, the rest is OHH.....

[SevenStar]

yuanfen made a good point about having principles internalized. Here's something about that that I posted on the mantis forum:

I agree wholeheartedly that it limits you, just as fighting american rules limits me. What I was saying is you should be able to compensate for the limitation. To quote Tainan:

"Because a trad MArtist who has not been in a situation where they are in danger of getting beat up, IMO will always have doubt of themself of what they will do under pressure.

Musashi said that until you have fought in a death match you haven't become a warrior, so I guess it is all a difference of degree."

and he's right. However, in this day and age you can't do eye gouges, groin shots, etc. at full speed be it training or competition. That's where IMO understanding of principle comes in. I don't buy into the myth that a style is "too deadly" to compete with. For example, shuai chiao has a principle called shearing. In a nutshell, shearing is applying to opposite forces to the body simultaneously, for example pushing your torso and pulling your leg.

Now, take that principle and apply it. As you are stepping forward, I sweep your leg and push backwards. It looks like this:

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/anim.../kouchigari.htm

WAIT A MINUTE!!! That's a judo throw in the image, not a shuai chiao throw!!

Now, let's apply it in a nastier way - as I step in, I block/push in on your leg with either my leg or arm. The other arm performs a chop, downward/diagonally into your neck.

There's a throw I've seen mantis guys use, where from beside/diagonally behind the guy you will sweep his leg out while you strike him in the chest, knocking him back... same principle.

That's how I think - I try to fit everything into the construct of a principle. Once I understand that principle I can make applications as I see fit.

an arcing horizontal strike can be a hook, elbow, etc. That's what I see when I fight. If I happen to get into a street fight, does it matter if I use an elbow or a hook? not at all. If it lands properly, they both produce a similar result.

[yuanfen]

Good post SevenStar-
The shearing principle you refer to exists in wing chun too and can be used from wing chun structure and dynamics.

If wc folks want to enter some sporting event- they need to thoroughly understand the format way ahead of time- and also train accordingly for wind, stamina etc in addittion to "knowing"
wing chun. Self defense and sport are different tracks-with some connecting links.

[Phil Redmond]

Brithlor,
Obviously the Wc guy was the one that didn't go to the other end of the mat, kneel and face away from his opponent as is tradition in Kyukushinkai and most other Japanese arts.

Ernie, WC is the baddest art in the world. All we need is a few forms, some chi sau, and the deadly Biu Jee form and we're unbeatable. We don't even have to train hard. Two or three days at the kwoon are enough.....I have to stop now I'm laughing my butt off.....LOL

[Brithlor]

I don't recall anyone kneeling... I'll have to look at it again... was it at the END of the video? For some reason all my downloads stop at 95% :-/.

I don't think it's fair to judge wing chun off of that clip... especially saying that wing chun is useless because the wing chun guy had to adapt... well the Kyokushin guy didn't do so well either, neither was really dominating the fight as far as I could see.

[Brithlor]

I just watched the clip again... There was no "traditional" kneeling... the only kneeling I saw was when that guy kept getting punched in the nose :-P.

After watching it again it seemed like both used their techniques... but NEITHER used them that well... To say that either one used what the learned more effectively than the other is wrong in my opinion... not that I could do any better though :-P.

[apoweyn]

The wing chun guy is on the left. Wearing the sash (as opposed to the black belt).

Difficult to tell who was the better man, really. On the one hand, the karateka probably won within the confines of this competition.

On the other, the wing chun guy actually dropped the karateka several times with head shots.

So would the wing chun guy have won in a competition allowing headshots? Or would the karateka have been able to dole out headshots as well, if he were fighting in a competition that allowed them?

I don't know. But I doubt that any fighting event (or real fight) is ever going to look clean enough to satisfy viewers expecting to see individual techniques as they appear in training.


Stuart B.

[Phil Redmond]

Brithlor,
I wrote:
"Obviously the WC guy was the one that [didn't] go to the other end of the mat, kneel and face away from his opponent as is tradition in Kyukushinkai and most other Japanese arts".

The key word was "didn't". Meaning that the WC guy should have knelt and faced away from his opponent after the foul shot or for what ever reason the Karateka had to stop. Most kung fu people wouldn't know to go to the opposite corner. Most Japanese stylists do know.

[Brithlor]

Ah... I see now.

That's who I suspected was the wing chun guy anyway...

I agree with apoweyn that in the confines of that particular match that it is really impossible to decide who is the better fighter... The wing chun guy got dropped 3 times from trips and sweeps... the Kyokushin got dropped twice by head injuries and once from a sweep or low kick... when the two were just exchanging blows it seemed as if the wing chun guy defended against the kicks better, even though he didn't move around quite as much, while the Kyokushin guy got hit pretty solidly with them... however, it didn't seem to do much damage to him, but it just might've been because they were both holding back.

Either way I don't think much can be decided in these kind of fights... then again, how much can really be decided in fights with gloves and headgear aswell? Alot of wing chun (and other martial art techinques) require alot of precision that gloves don't really allow for... so that isn't 100% accurate either.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by apoweyn
I don't know. But I doubt that any fighting event (or real fight) is ever going to look clean enough to satisfy viewers expecting to see individual techniques as they appear in training.


Well yeah exactly!

The guy is having a hard enough time not getting kicked too hard.

How's he supposed to live up to the umpteen number of theories everyone has unless his opponent sucks?