View Full Version : Chin Na question regarding styles
PHILBERT
12-01-2003, 08:44 PM
I was thinking earlier while reading my Shaolin Chin Na (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/b-ym36x.html) book and came to ponder about applications of it. In the book it says how it can be easily adapted to any style of martial art, so I was curious, is Chin Na the same for every style, but follow up techniques different? If I were to say buy the 72 Joint Locks of Eagle Claw Chin Na Part 1 (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/vid72joinloc.html) and 72 Joint Locks of Eagle Claw Chin Na Part 2 (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/vid72joinloc1.html), would they teach the same techniques as found in the Shaolin Chin Na videos Part 1 (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/pr-ym386.html) and Part 2 (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/pr-ym394.html)?
I realize that follow up techniques would differ for each art, but was just seeing if the techniques and applications would be the same, but with different follow ups.
I also ponder this because Dr Yang, Jwing-Ming has a book on Taiji Chin Na and did not know if they were different joint locks.
Thundermudd
12-01-2003, 08:50 PM
How many ways can the joints be bent? This is how many different chin na there can be. Bagua has them and they work well.
PHILBERT
12-01-2003, 09:13 PM
What I am asking is there only 72 total joint locks on the body and that every system that incorporates Chin Na only uses those 72? Or are there say...108, and some only use those 72? Or some only use 24? 48? etc.
Chang Style Novice
12-01-2003, 09:20 PM
So wait - you mean chin na has nothing to do with that bony mass at the bottom of your face?
SanSoo Student
12-01-2003, 09:28 PM
I think that the basic locks will be the same, and they might show you different approaches to the same type of hold in eagle's claw. I'm not an expert in chin na or eagle claw. But IMO, there is only so much chin na you can use before it becomes too fancy, like in that book you have (I have it too), there were some finger locks where you use two hands on one hand, that are not practical to use in a real fight, unless your a bigger guy vs. a smaller opponent.
I mean Chin Na will only get you so far, before you realize, "I have to hit that MoFo. first before I lock him out."
Thundermudd
12-02-2003, 04:12 AM
Yes,
Chin Na to lead their body and them WHAM!:D
anton
12-02-2003, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
So wait - you mean chin na has nothing to do with that bony mass at the bottom of your face?
You mean the Chin?.....
Naahh!
;)
You're making too much of the numbers.
There are basic principle for Chin Na (Qinna). For example, one principle for one type of Qinna is to move a joint into a stress region of extension and then stress it more.
Taking this concept, you then take a particular joint and ask "What is the stress region for the joint? What do I have to do to put that joint into a stress region? What do I have to do to apply more stress once I am there? And finally....HOW do I get to the starting point and follow through from a dynamic situation"
Once you have those questions, the answers may differ in the how for the setup and the what for the follow through depending on the style but the basic concept and mechanics for that type of Qinna will be the same.
There are other types of Qinna - for example stressing the muscle or ligaments...and so on.
So, my point is, if you grasp the concept and then grasp the flow of what your body does and how your style (personal or otherwise) workd, you will end up with any number of Qinna techniques but they all break down into basics.
The codified ones are simply codified for basics and understanding the concepts.
BentMonk
12-02-2003, 07:45 AM
I have Dr. Ming's book also. GLW has performed Chin Na's Dim Mak (Prison Sex ReMix) on the correct. On pages 26 & 27 Dr. Ming discusses the "construction of Chin Na techniques". After a break down of the basic principles of Chin Na Dr. Ming says, "By folllowing and keeping in mind all of these guidelines the experienced martial artist can construct his own Chin Na techniques. But only those martial artists who are compotent in theory and practice should try to make up their own techniques. Innovation has always been a vital part of Wu Su, but it can only come about through a mastery of basic skills and knowledge." I take that to mean that as one gains more and more understanding of the main Chin Na principles, you will see more opportunities for more techniques when you need to. I have always thought Chin Na to be the most adaptable CMA. The same principles Dr. Ming spoke of were used to preserve the effectiveness of the techniques my instructor changed for me. Chin Na is also a way to focus on the foundation of techniques, and move away from the situationally dependent techniques within some traditional forms. With the primary focus on expressing all of the principle foundations in every Chin Na technique, the number that could be created would be limited only by the imagination of the martial artist.
Originally posted by SanSoo Student
But IMO, there is only so much chin na you can use before it becomes too fancy, like in that book you have (I have it too), there were some finger locks where you use two hands on one hand, that are not practical to use in a real fight, unless your a bigger guy vs. a smaller opponent. This is true. There are finger locks, ear locks, etc. Other locks require extremely complicated setups. While perhaps not practical in many situations, these locks can help you understand some principle that will help improve the bread-and-butter locks.
The two-hand-on-one locks are intended to quickly put the opponent in enough pain that he can't (or doesn't want to) do anything with the other hand except tap out.
norther practitioner
12-02-2003, 01:45 PM
The two-hand-on-one locks are intended to quickly put the opponent in enough pain that he can't (or doesn't want to) do anything with the other hand except tap out.
or catch themselves as they hit the pavement....:D
chin na into throws is fun...
PHILBERT
12-02-2003, 02:29 PM
GLW, BentMonk and Tak all pretty much answered me question on the dime. Thanks guys.
afaik, YJM standardized for his curriculum. I think what you see in his material is a great representation of chin na techniques.
the important part is to understand the basic theory behind dividing the muscle and misplacing the bone. then, I feel, you can forget about 'technique' and just fugg up whatever you have in your hand.
fwiw, I've seen at least 6 methods of applying the 'hand wrap' on the wrist each with it's own opinion on the best angle of the elbow etc, etc...it's still basically just applying torque on the joint in 2 different planes...
chin na into throws is fun...
and striking into a chin na into a throw is more fun ;)
norther practitioner
12-02-2003, 03:09 PM
and striking into a chin na into a throw is more fun
I don't got dat down like that yet though....:D
I'll be sure to tell ya when I do.:)
close >> strike >> grab >> wrench >> throw >> strike sum mo
:D :p
btw, NP (and MK and Mizongkid) nice pic
finally got my ish of the rag...must be on the ass end of the distribution cycle.
later...my review of the TZ article...;)
Mutant
12-02-2003, 03:32 PM
yes GWL and some of the other guys already provided some very good answers.
i'll try to add my .02 cents.
there are a handful of fundamental core techniques that are important to grasp (no pun intended), and once you get those you could put together any number of combinations or variations. these combinations are only good if they adhere to certain principles of covering and protecting yourself. there is a danger that making overly elaborate combinations (which seems commonplace), especially w/o really understanding the core technique, and having unrealistic expectations of how they might be used to control an opponent, could do more harm then good.
they are the same joint locks in different systems (there are only so many ways that the body moves) but some systems/teachers may have a higher developed understanding and use of them. diffenent styles usually jsut teach them with different names and variations. i have noticed that some styles don't seem to 'have' all of the core techniques emphasized or developed to the same degree. if they don't teach all the important basics but have numerous variations of some other techniques, whatever teh number, then it is not a complete chin na system. thats how you would assess and compare systems.
people (Jwing-Ming included) have a tendency to over complicate things. in cataloging and numbering all those different chin na techniques, the core techniques are sort of obscured, like not seeing the forrest through the trees. even though he catagorizes them into dividing tendon, displacing bone, etc (or however exactly he terms them), the fact that these '72' techniques are just variations on several basic core techniques is not always clear. and the number 72 is quite arbitrary imo. maybe it has something to do with the history of his system or something, i forget. and its not that his books are bad, theyre okay, but you have to remember that he's running a business and will complicate things enough to differentiate himself as the expert and sell more books and seminars.
the book is a decent reference, but it would be confusing trying to learn much besides terms and history from it. forget the numbers. just find a real good teacher(s) (if you havent already) who will concentrate on the core techniques with a hands on approach. the only way to learn it is to feel it and practice practice practice with somebody good who can lead you through the puzzles.
Workable is the key idea...
For example, Qinna that operates on immobilization and does not require you to absolutely be stronger than the person you are doing the Qinna on is workable.
Qinna that operates on the principle of inflicting pain on the other person is not.
Of course you are now saying "Whoa, wait a minute there..."
Why is it NOT workable...well, there are a number of things that the other person can do to remove pain as a factor. Drugs, alcohol, mental illness, etc... are all very real examples. Personally, after having worked in a psych hospital as the man in the white coat that takes you away, I can say that pain based Qinna does NOT work on a person on Crack, PCP, large amounts of downers, etc... I saw a guy try to kick through a metal door. He broke his foot and ended up not being able to bust the door down. NOT because he was hurting but because the foot was giving way under him as he tried to get up speed for the final assault on the door.
Qinna that works against gravity - bad idea. There are a lot of Qinna techniques that cause the opponent to raise up - on the tip toes often. These are painful...but require you as the person executing the Qinna to maintain an upward force against gravity.
How long do you do this? What happens if you tire before you decide what to do with the person... Or if you slip.
My preference is fo those techniques that either end in a takedown, throw, or break...and move on. Or those techniques that put the opponent sprawled out on the ground in a very unmenacing position. This way, gravity works with you.
I also do not care for Qinna techniques that take a setup and require hand changes, position changes, etc... They are prone to failure due to mistakes. Too complicated gets you hurt.
Also, any Qinna technique that requires better than 50% accuracy is not on my list. If you are off by an inch in a strike, kick, or throw, the opponent is usually still hit or thrown...it just may not do as much damage as if you were dead on.
With Qinna, many of the techniques require dead on accuracy to work. Miss it by a half inch and you get hit. Given how fast a real altercation goes and the fact that I am human, I am simply not going to bet on that type of a technique where my well being is concerned.
Techniques like that are interesting...but in the end, simple is best. Sticking with direct basic principles applied as minimalistically as possible is the way to use it.
so, in other words, understand the basic mechanics of the joints/tendons and KISS.
I totally agree that YJM has some pretty intricate stuff in his books and it does take prior knowledge to see the forest for the trees. However, there is a progression from 'Shaolin Chin Na' through 'Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na' and on to 'Comprehensive Applications of SCN'.
the following is just my .02 (well, maybe .04) on YJM's chin na books.
'Shaolin Chin Na' is as basic as it gets, IMO. The first 50 pages are nothing but conditioning and simple releases. Out of a 159 page book there are only about 60 pages of actual techniques. There is even a section on simple massage. This would be the companion book for a newbie martial artist who is recieving instruction from a competent teacher.
'Analysis...' is billed as an instructors manual. So, if someone doesn't have the basics down, it will seem confusing and even more so with 'Comprehensive...'
'Comprehensive...' does really go out there a bit. But, as the third in what I see as a series, it fits. IMO, an extremely knowledgable chin na practitioner showing his stuff.
The other chin na books he has produced seemed to me to contain material already in one of the above three.
and, no, I'm not a YMAA student nor have I ever met YJM. I've had chin na taught to me by every sifu i've had as well as some japanese jujitsu and wrestling. These 3 books have been invaluable as aids to learning and improving my own chin na.
as always, seek your initial and ongoing instruction from someone qualified to teach.
GLW, good post, hope you don't mind some debate on it.
Workable is the key idea...
For example, Qinna that operates on immobilization and does not require you to absolutely be stronger than the person you are doing the Qinna on is workable.
completely agree.
Qinna that operates on the principle of inflicting pain on the other person is not.
Of course you are now saying "Whoa, wait a minute there..."
Why is it NOT workable...well, there are a number of things that the other person can do to remove pain as a factor. Drugs, alcohol, mental illness, etc... are all very real examples. Personally, after having worked in a psych hospital as the man in the white coat that takes you away, I can say that pain based Qinna does NOT work on a person on Crack, PCP, large amounts of downers, etc... I saw a guy try to kick through a metal door. He broke his foot and ended up not being able to bust the door down. NOT because he was hurting but because the foot was giving way under him as he tried to get up speed for the final assault on the door.
I completely agree with your example to back up the initial statement. However, I don't feel you should not examine and practice 'pain compliance' techniques as they will work on a large % of people. Police forces utilize pain compliance at the core of thier techniques and of course have back up plans if it doesn't work, just as we should.
Qinna that works against gravity - bad idea. There are a lot of Qinna techniques that cause the opponent to raise up - on the tip toes often. These are painful...but require you as the person executing the Qinna to maintain an upward force against gravity.
I don't feel these techniques are actually working against gravity.
You are causing pain in a manner which makes the person try to move to relieve that pain. Only they can't because they can't fly:) So, they are on their toes. The same restrictions for any pain compliance technique will still apply as discussed above.
How long do you do this? What happens if you tire before you decide what to do with the person...
the applicable word here is 'flow'. None of the apps I know for 'lifting' chin na are good submissions. so, you need to move on once control is achieved before you lose said control. or tire.
My preference is fo those techniques that either end in a takedown, throw, or break...and move on. Or those techniques that put the opponent sprawled out on the ground in a very unmenacing position.
mine as well. imo/ime that is the purpose of chin na. the problem with most books is that they show single, unconnected techniques. that's why you need a teacher, as we all agree.
This way, gravity works with you.
'why hit someone with your hand or fist if you can hit them with the whole world?'
heard that somewhere. makes sense even if it is a bit melodramatic.
...or if you slip....
I also do not care for Qinna techniques that take a setup and require hand changes, position changes, etc... They are prone to failure due to mistakes. Too complicated gets you hurt.
learning set-ups, hand changes and position changes are necessary for when you slip, screw up, get tired in one position or you suddenly have a non-cooperating person to deal with. what you move from and to with the changes should be simple and the changes themselves should be simple but without changes I feel one would be very staticky (yea, yea) in their approach.
as an aside: the chin na that came out of Remy Presas' Modern Arnis combined (IMO) a lot of Prof. Wally Jay's small circle jujitsu and the flow concepts of the arnis. it is from this experience that I draw the above conclusion.
Also, any Qinna technique that requires better than 50% accuracy is not on my list. If you are off by an inch in a strike, kick, or throw, the opponent is usually still hit or thrown...it just may not do as much damage as if you were dead on.
I agree to a large extent but don't we want to achieve a high level of skill in what we are learning? While a % of applications seen in books (including YJM's) could be low % apps in general, something that is low % for you or I may not be for someone else.
With Qinna, many of the techniques require dead on accuracy to work. Miss it by a half inch and you get hit. Given how fast a real altercation goes and the fact that I am human, I am simply not going to bet on that type of a technique where my well being is concerned.
[QUOTE]
so are you saying that you feel that chin na techniques are so low % in general that you wouldn't use them at all? What do you mean by simple?
[QUOTE]Techniques like that are interesting...but in the end, simple is best. Sticking with direct basic principles applied as minimalistically as possible is the way to use it.
Absolutely. However, I think there are varying degrees of simple based on an individuals skill level.
thanks, Matt.
"
GLW, good post, hope you don't mind some debate on it.
"
Not at all...
"
I completely agree with your example to back up the initial statement. However, I don't feel you should not examine and practice 'pain compliance' techniques as they will work on a large % of people. Police forces utilize pain compliance at the core of thier techniques and of course have back up plans if it doesn't work, just as we should.
"
Pain will always be a factor. I am just of the opinion that your choice of methods should not solely rely on pain but rather rely on structural immobilization. That means that by executing the proper technique, the opponent is put in a position where they cannot move or cannot use a body part to threaten you. The fact is that USUALLY, a byproduct of this immobilization is also PAIN...but the pain is not the cause of the immobilization, the immobilization is the cause of the pain. In this way, even if the opponent is stoned out of their mind, you STILL have them immobilized even if they do not feel the pain.
"
the applicable word here is 'flow'. None of the apps I know for 'lifting' chin na are good submissions. so, you need to move on once control is achieved before you lose said control. or tire.
"
I am simply of the opinion that if you are flowing around in Qinna it is probably better to go ahead and break things (remove the threat by making that which threatens you not work). Every time you perform a change, there is a risk of mistake and having it go badly for you. Qinna is actually merciful to the opponent. You do it to control in many cases. When mercy to the opponent becomes masochism or potential masochism to me, I abandon the mercy road. For me, rather than flow to another Qinna, I would probably choose to break what I had, then do a take down in the process that would possibly also include some strike to harm.
"learning set-ups, hand changes and position changes are necessary for when you slip, screw up, get tired in one position or you suddenly have a non-cooperating person to deal with. what you move from and to with the changes should be simple and the changes themselves should be simple but without changes I feel one would be very staticky (yea, yea) in their approach."
Again, my preference for the changes is to do something that disables things rather than continue with another lock. Most Qinna can be turned into a break of the joint you are working on (for joint Qinna). If you have a person that simply won't let you lock and stay where you are, lock, break, then move to another thing.
"I agree to a large extent but don't we want to achieve a high level of skill in what we are learning? While a % of applications seen in books (including YJM's) could be low % apps in general, something that is low % for you or I may not be for someone else.
"
In most arts, you have Da(striking), Ti(kicking), Shuai(throwing,wrestling), and Na(locking/grasping). Very few arts place Na as the most important. Given the amount of time required for proficiency and the time demands of modern life, I simply feel that the other three types of techniques yield more repeatable results for the time put in. (I also have seen a number of folks that simply want to leanr Qinna but not the rest of the art. Sort of like saying give me the keys but not the car and the gas...and they usually have the poorest basics as well - so I avoid such things personally)
The fact is that USUALLY, a byproduct of this immobilization is also PAIN...but the pain is not the cause of the immobilization, the immobilization is the cause of the pain Agreed, for locks and throat holds. You have a good point that the other two aspects of qin na, splitting the muscles and attacking the sensitive areas (I'd say pressure points if not for confusion with dim mak), may not work on someone who is drunk, stoned, enraged, etc. These are usually variations on top of other techniques, though, so I'd say it's definitely not a waste of time to learn and practice them.
I understand and agree with your preference to destroy rather than transition to another lock, but sometimes it's not all right to do so, like if you're a bouncer or a police officer in a non-life-threatening situation.
I also have seen a number of folks that simply want to leanr Qinna but not the rest of the art. Sort of like saying give me the keys but not the car and the gas... I think that this is because of the reputation it has as being an "equalizer" - people want to be able to deal with bigger, stronger people while putting in a minimum of effort. All those self-defense seminars that tell people that a single lock can subdue any opponent probably don't help anything.
Having worked in a psych hospital, I found that even some immobilization techniques did not work on really wacked out people. They would actually go against it and break themselves in the process.
In one instance, I had a perfectly fine lock on the patient's arm/elbow and was rooted in a very solid horse stance and safe as can be... The other staff member supposed to be assisting only had to redirect the patient's other arm. Instead, that bozo staff member let the patient pick them up. They could not move me and I was about to take the patient down to the ground (a change) when the patient used the other staff mamber as a bowling ball for all three of us. My lock held but we all went flying and when all was said and done, I was using tweezers to pull glass from broken light bulbs out of my arm. Needless to say, I determined that if I was going to be hit, I would take out the other person first....I also removed myself from any and all situations where the other person can do more harm to me than I am allowed to do to them...
As for the self-defense classes, that is a major pet peeve for me. They take money but actually end up with the student worse off because now they think they know something.
As for the self-defense classes, that is a major pet peeve for me. They take money but actually end up with the student worse off because now they think they know something.
AMEN. But, SD classes that taught...what, maybe 1 technique an hour...wouldn't sell. So, people teaching that stuff try and cram as much stuff in as possible without any meaningful drill time. I had that complaint with Guro Presas in his later seminars. Too much stuff to get a good grasp. I'd rather learn 2 or 3 things over a couple of hours and come away really knowing them.
I'll come back later...but as a question: how long do you think it takes to 'learn' a new chin na move? Not 'master' whatever that means but learn it well enough to drill it later w/o help from the person that taught it to you. I said an hour above but maybe less could be appropriate.
Becca
12-03-2003, 04:30 PM
how long do you think it takes to 'learn' a new chin na move? Not 'master' whatever that means but learn it well enough to drill it later w/o help from the person that taught it to you. I said an hour above but maybe less could be appropriate.
Depends on the techique... If you now something similar, it could take as little as 20 minutes.
As far as not wanting to move: Sorter people like me often can't make the techique work well with out a side step, a twist or something similar. You get them in the basic position then move your body in a way they can't follow from that position. That is often the best way for me to get enough torq on the lock to actually control them.
Depends on the person and the technique.
If you have zero basics, it can take days. You are not ready for a good while to even attempt it with a remotely unwilling partner.
If you have been doing Qinna for a while and have a bit of skill already, you can learn a new one in a matter of less than an hour.
Now, knowing how to apply it, flow, deal with resistance, deal with what is exact for the technique and what is just off enough for it not to work....that can take a lot of time...and the more complex the technique, the longer it takes.
I learned my first technique and was trying to just get the move...then got paired with a person with an ego problem. He had been at it much longer than me as well. So, I attempt the technique and it will NEVER work. Well, years later I realized that he was employing the first level of defense against that technique. By then, I knew how to dissolve that defense - but as a newbie, he stopped me dead and then made it seem like I was just not getting it.
As a teacher now, if I find a student doing that, I make sure that I go over and "Coach" the person being jerked around...so that they can do it first....and then I put the jerk on the floor...and then while rubbing the painful joint, I ask them to relax and flow with it so they can all learn...and that later, resistance will be added. That tends to make an example of the one person public enough so I rarely have to do it again.
norther practitioner
12-04-2003, 11:47 AM
but as a newbie, he stopped me dead and then made it seem like I was just not getting it.
That type of things gets really annoying as a newbie in chi na (or anything for that matter).
(by the way, is that you in that pic on 97?)
I'd have to agree with the timeframe with chi na. It takes a while, but once you realize how a move works, it makes it much easier to improvise.
page 97? Is that the one on Taiji Legacy with all the pictures?
Involved in Chinese Martial Arts events from the very first one....never ben in a magazine...I show up with my daughter...her first time..and she is in the magazine.
GLW:
Pain will always be a factor. I am just of the opinion that your choice of methods should not solely rely on pain but rather rely on structural immobilization. That means that by executing the proper technique, the opponent is put in a position where they cannot move or cannot use a body part to threaten you. The fact is that USUALLY, a byproduct of this immobilization is also PAIN...but the pain is not the cause of the immobilization, the immobilization is the cause of the pain. In this way, even if the opponent is stoned out of their mind, you STILL have them immobilized even if they do not feel the pain.
OSO:
agreed. pain is a facet of the bigger picture. not to be ignored or canonized.
GLW:
I am simply of the opinion that if you are flowing around in Qinna it is probably better to go ahead and break things (remove the threat by making that which threatens you not work).
OSO:
my perspective on chin na has always been one of control.
when you break a limb you can no longer control below the break WITH CHIN NA. You could possibly control with the pain of the break. Not opposed to breaking something if that seems the thing to do. Certainly the ultimate end of any chin na could be maiming.
GLW:
Every time you perform a change, there is a risk of mistake and having it go badly for you.
OSO:
granted but that's true for anything. again, I tend to come at the concept of flowing as need based due to the actions of the opponent not just cuz I want to.
GLW:
Qinna is actually merciful to the opponent. You do it to control in many cases. When mercy to the opponent becomes masochism or potential masochism to me, I abandon the mercy road. For me, rather than flow to another Qinna, I would probably choose to break what I had, then do a take down in the process that would possibly also include some strike to harm.
OSO:
I guess when I talk about chin na ONLY I'm only thinking about the period of time when chin na is an option, not after chin na is not an option. I agree with your standard for when chin na is not an option.
GLW:
Again, my preference for the changes is to do something that disables things rather than continue with another lock. Most Qinna can be turned into a break of the joint you are working on (for joint Qinna). If you have a person that simply won't let you lock and stay where you are, lock, break, then move to another thing.
OSO:
yep.
GLW:
In most arts, you have Da(striking), Ti(kicking), Shuai(throwing,wrestling), and Na(locking/grasping). Very few arts place Na as the most important. Given the amount of time required for proficiency and the time demands of modern life, I simply feel that the other three types of techniques yield more repeatable results for the time put in. (I also have seen a number of folks that simply want to leanr Qinna but not the rest of the art. Sort of like saying give me the keys but not the car and the gas...and they usually have the poorest basics as well - so I avoid such things personally)
OSO:
agreed. chin na has just been a focus for me because I was able to do it as well as the other aspects.
Ky-Fi
12-04-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by GLW
I learned my first technique and was trying to just get the move...then got paired with a person with an ego problem. He had been at it much longer than me as well. So, I attempt the technique and it will NEVER work. Well, years later I realized that he was employing the first level of defense against that technique. By then, I knew how to dissolve that defense - but as a newbie, he stopped me dead and then made it seem like I was just not getting it.
As a teacher now, if I find a student doing that, I make sure that I go over and "Coach" the person being jerked around...so that they can do it first....and then I put the jerk on the floor...and then while rubbing the painful joint, I ask them to relax and flow with it so they can all learn...and that later, resistance will be added. That tends to make an example of the one person public enough so I rarely have to do it again.
Awesome! I've seen my teacher do the same thing to the "resistors". That is one of my BIGGEST pet peaves with chin na training, when, once in a while, you get the partner who tenses up and purposely resists. When you're first learning a chin na technique, and you're moving slowly to get the angle, and your partner knows exactly what you're going to do---if he resists, then there's NO way you're going to learn and it's totally wasting the practice time; you have to initially learn the feel of the angle and lock while he's somewhat relaxed.
I came up with my own solution to that problem in one class, too. We had been learning a few different Taiji apps during the class, so when my partner tensed up on the chin na app we were working on (from pushing hands), at the last second I stepped in with a different app that we had learned earlier (an upward pushing "grasp sparrow's tail" to the chest). This pushed him back a couple steps, I made my point, and I also got a chuckle out of him. Not so easy to resist when you don't know it's coming :).
David Jamieson
12-04-2003, 04:25 PM
One of the guys who I had teh pleasuer of doing a couple of days of training with in the fall actually had a great remark about joint locks. I'll paraphrase:
"the easiest person to put a lock on is a martial artist"
Think about it, all the time you are taught "go with the flow, roll with it, etc etc"
Now, try immediately rejecting the attempted technique and pull away from the lock and make a noise, like a sharp yell.
You might surprise yourself at how inneffective Chin Na becomes when you try to pull it off on an average person who has a natural response to pain and fear, unlike a great deal of Martial artists who are in the mind set of attempting to counter, roll with, or go with the tech.
Discussing this in that time brought all sorts of good stuff to the top of my mind again in regards to the bitter reality of real encounters.
Sumpin to tink about anyway.
cheers
norther practitioner
12-04-2003, 04:56 PM
page 97? Is that the one on Taiji Legacy with all the pictures?
YEP
close >> strike >> grab >> wrench >> throw >> strike sum mo
I think Kung Lek may have misunderstood my point...
When you are learning Qinna, you REQUIRE a cooperative partner. You are trying to get a feel and flow and understand the mechanics. Trying to get all of these things while dealing with resistance and danger is nearly impossible.
It seems best to have an instructor but to also have two students work together. The instructor shows how it is done. The sutdents experiment.
This also tends to make people aware of what CAN happen. You take turns so if you go crazy, it is the other guy's turn next...sort of a self governing proposition.
Putting a senior person with a junior CAN help both but the senior has to surrender some of their ego and let the junior do things. This often doesn't happen unless the instructor is good about laying the groundwork.
But, at some point in time, you have to switch to adding resistance and learning how to deal with it. Then you have to add speed but no power (after all, doing it fast with power means you go through a lot of practice partners). While doing this, you learn the counters and the flow. Then you add in flow, speed, power into a set pattern (safety first) with more advanced people. Finally, you go freestyle full out...but this is only for advanced people since the risk of injury is too high if the person does not know how to counter....
David Jamieson
12-05-2003, 07:56 AM
GLW-
Nope, i understood what you said.
I was merely trying to point out that:
But, at some point in time, you have to switch to adding resistance and learning how to deal with it. Then you have to add speed but no power (after all, doing it fast with power means you go through a lot of practice partners). While doing this, you learn the counters and the flow. Then you add in flow, speed, power into a set pattern (safety first) with more advanced people. Finally, you go freestyle full out...but this is only for advanced people since the risk of injury is too high if the person does not know how to counter....
in reference to this idea put forth, There are 1 in 1000 people who actually train at this level were they can actually pull off even a simple Chin Na technique on a resisting opponent.
I would venture to say that those who would benefit the most from extensive Chin Na training would be leos and in fact many leos have some form of lock and restrain method taught to them. Their "opponents" are more often than not resistant, but generally, if they are too resistant, the Leos will "soften" them up a bit with a good sound clubbing opr even shoot the person if they are too active in their resistance.
High level Chin Na technique is difficult to achieve. And yes, I agree that in the process of learning the best method to ensure understanding is slow and steady and gradual growth and development.
cheers
"the easiest person to put a lock on is a martial artist"
maybe if they are a beginner. i'd have to say this is a pretty broad observation. the first stage of chin na training SHOULD be basic dissolves. then, as new techs are taught, the counters to them should also be taught. if someone is not learning the defensive side of chin na then the offensive side isn't going to do them any good.
while you may train chin na techniques w/o emptying to learn them the next phase is to add the empty into the equation against . it IS rediculous to think that you are just going to chin na someone w/o at least distracting them from what you are trying to do to them. this strategy holds true in the sport venues as well. I would have thought this would almost have gone without saying.
Every thing has to be set up against a fully resisting opponent.
Chin na is a more complicated skill set then punching or kicking.
So, it takes more time to get good at it. But that doesn't mean you can't get good enough at it to apply it to a fully resisting opponent.
this may sound like grandstanding or a 'look at me' statement but...while not a LEO, and I won't ever compare my experiences to one, I did work as a bouncer for 7 years between 1990-1997 and dealt with more than a couple of fully resisting people during that time. I pride myself on being able to say that in 7 years I only threw punches twice. All the other physical situation were dealt with by way of chin na or takedowns to chin na on the ground.
Shaolinlueb
12-05-2003, 09:00 AM
i started training the basics in chin na on and off over a year ago. i havent really gone beyond the basics cause i haven't done a lot of them. but looking through the book (i also have the shaolin chin an with the pink cover. i think its great.) and I also have "The secrets of eagle claw kung fu" I have to say it seems all chin na is the same and different styles jsut teach and get into them differently. now that might have ben said i only skimmed through the previous 3 pages of discuission on this.
Meat Shake
12-05-2003, 09:02 AM
Oso forgot to mention his 300,000 volt stun gun...
and the 6 midgets with billy clubs he employs... "The brooklyn knee crushers"...
;)
MS, no stun gun but I did have 6 guys on my crew, correction 5 guys and a girl. woulda hired a midget. they cold have been good at spotting underage drinkers. We were a strange bar...Frat boys on Thurdays and rednecks on Fri/Sat. occasionaly we'd get a hippy band in. Hippies are the worst...they keep their anger supressed all the time then get drunk and explode.;)
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