The WSL Way

[glenn richards]

Hi Folks
Just been reading the "WSL Video" thread and this leads me to a question.
All the WSL people differentate themselves by using the "WSL Way" phrase and i'd like to ask them how they feel it varies from other WC out there.
I'd also be interested in other WC exponents views of how they found the WSL Way.
I used to train a bit with some WSL folks and one thing that stands out for me is that they emphasise centreline theory a bit more than what i had been exposed to.
Looking forward to the replies
regards
Glenn

[Brithlor]

What does WSL stand for..? Wong Shon Leung?

[PaulH]

Hi Glenn,

The best commentary on WSL Way is Wong's own words:

"I firmly believe that WC is something very logical. As long as it stays logical it doesn't matter what you call it or what you're actually doing."

"If a martial art is not logical, simple, and useful it will disappear...If there is something lacking in meaning and purpose it will definitely fade away."

"...the WC system is taught the same. The approach can be different but the techniques are the same, and the philosophy as well. Anyone who learns martial art must be combat minded. If one learns martial arts's skills, but does not pay attention to fighting, then they are neglecting the essense to pursue trifles..."

"Chi sau is very important in WC, but too much emphasis is placed on the idea of "sticking" to the hands- this causes the student to end up chasing the hands instead of punching and trapping. This mistake totally contradicts the WC basic principles. WC theory is flawless if you execute it perfectly. But a theory is just a theory. It means nothing if you can't put it to work...All the theory in the world can't save you from losing."

"I can only say that I try to share WC in an honest way. I teach in a logical manner because the art is very logical. I can't talk about what other people may do or say. I'm only responsible for my own acts"


Regards,

PH

[Brithlor]

WSL stands for Wong Shun (Shon?) Leung right? Anyone got a picture of him because I'm trying to figure out who he is as the name sounds very familiar...

[PaulH]

Just do a google search on Wong Shun Leung, there should be many sites with nice WSL photos. My favorite is his beimo stance ( the man with the knives is David Peterson, one of his students):

http://www.wslwingchun.com/

Regards,

PH

[Ernie]

pictures here
http://www.wongvingtsun.co.uk/Photo_Gallery.htm

I'm not into discussing who does what which way , but if I had to summarize the wsl way , better to say mindset , test everything under pressure , and have the mental intent to finish the job
I've heard from others that have experienced many of the wsl schools around the world and they say we a re very fight oriented and there is a consistency of that type of mindset ,
we don't get caught up in things like , chi or preserving history , we just stride to simplify and test wing chun ,
now many others have there own way and I'm in no way saying one is better suited then the other it comes down to your character .
there also seems to be more of a emphasis on pressure in chi sau and quick explosive foot work .
but I am not experienced in all other systems so I can't comment on them .
in the end it all might be the same who knows
but I'm sure there are senior wsl people that can give a better answer .

[Nick Forrer]

Hi

This is my first post so please be gentle with me.

I studied another lineage of wing chun for four years before encountering the wsl way. It was immediately obvious -at least to me- that it was a far more effective, economical and better thought out approach than that which I had previously studied and practiced.

Given that it was still wing chun i.e. it still had the basic wing chun vocabulary of ygkym, shifting, the centreline concept, bong, tan, fook, gan, stepping back and forth in a straight line and at an angle etc this raises the question of why it was so different.

In general terms I think the answer is that it was more conceptually pure, that is to say that rather than just pay lip service to the fundamental concepts of wing chun viz. that attack is the best form of defence, that all actions should be as economical as possible i.e. don’t use two motions when one will do, that you shouldn't chase the hands of your opponent instead you should chase their centre of gravity (you fight the person not the hands) etc it actually puts them into practice at every turn. That is to say that rather than getting lost in the fog of endless techniques and counters to techniques and counters to counters etc. the wsl practitioner is at all times guided and in touch with these concepts and so he doesn’t lose sight of his objective namely; to upset his opponents centre of gravity while preserving the integrity of his own.

More specifically I would say the main differences are

1) a 50/50 weight distribution when turning i.e. your weight does not shift to either foot when you turn. Instead it stays centrally distributed. This IMHO has a number of advantages over 70/30 or 0/100. Firstly it allows for quicker turns and stepping making it harder for an opponent to outflank you/take your blindside whilst making it easier for you to open him up, establish lines of attack, deflect force away from your centre of gravity and outmanoeuvre him. Secondly when using it (shifting) to deflect an opponents force away from your centre of gravity (with bong sau for example) if you shift your weight on to your back leg you will actually move yourself away from your opponents centre of gravity making it harder to hit him with your back hand i.e. with the hand that was in wu sau but which is now your firing hand (assuming of course that bong has done its job and the threat to your centre of gravity has been neutralised), whilst making it easier for him to unbalance you if he turns to face your centre of gravity once more.

2) An emphasis on Lat sau di chung i.e. continual forward pressure as soon as contact is made. This means that as soon as a gap appears in your opponent’s defences or their structure is compromised in some way you immediately rush in to fill it/take up the space. When done correctly there should be no discrepancy between when a gap appears and when you rush in to fill it/strike them. When you do move in however it is not just the hand that goes forwards it is the whole body moving as one unit with the hand elbow shoulder knee and foot correctly aligned so as to give your attack maximum power and so as to retain the connection with the floor that is the fundamental characteristic of ygkym. Moreover you dont just step towards them, you actually step through them using the structure of your stance to destroy the structure of theirs. It should be stressed, however, that forward pressure/prying does not mean being tense or stiff. Indeed in the wsl method (as I’m sure with all lineages) tension is the enemy of good wing chun and flowing/being free is its friend!

3) Following on from the last point the contact point once a bridge is established is elbow to elbow not as I have often seen elsewhere and as i used to practice wrist to wrist. Elbow to elbow contact gives you more control, more leverage and will make your actions far more effective. Wrist to wrist contact, in contrast, while it may make you feel safer, means that you are out of range to apply any strikes effectively (except kicking of course but that is another story).

These are the main differences as far as I’m aware.

However one big disclaimer I have not seen every other method of wing chun so I cannot say that they don’t contain these things. Also I may not have adequately expressed what I was trying to impart. This is the problem with written communication when discussing a physical skill.

I will only say that for my part I feel I have learnt more and made more improvement in a year and a half then in the four years prior. That may also though be down to the fact that my teacher in the wsl way is very good and has around 35 years of wing chun under his belt

Hope this helps

Regards

Nick

[taltos]

Thanks for the post and welcome aboard!

I felt the same way when I began training WC after a few years of traditional Shaolin, and again when I began studying a different lineage of WC. It just seemed more logical, more coherent, more efficient, more (for lack of a better word) natural.

You did well by only talking about your experience and not throwing lineage names into the mix. There's nothing wrong with an opinion based on experience.

It's good to hear that you found something you could more easily identify with, and that you are pleased with the progress you are able to make.

Good luck in your training!

-Levi

[Nick Forrer]

Hi levi

Thanks for the positive feedback.

I have been reading this forum for a while without contributing and you certainly stand out in my mind as having consistently made intelligent, reasoned non political posts so your response to my first post is much appreciated

BTW good luck with your training too.

Presumably everyone here has the same goal namely to get better at WC so perhaps if we could get beyond lineage issues and petty interpersonal disputes we would find that more unites us then divides us.

Just a thought

regards

Nick

[Ernie]

nick nice post

but as you said you seem new to the system , all the things you specified 50/50 . forward presure , taking a persons space are just the very early basics of the wsl way
later you will find all stances and wieghting have a certian purpose at a certian time . they become transitional not fixed or robotic , just like your point about the elbow emphasis
later as your sensitivity grows and you become natural , you can play all focal points and shift energy between them wrist ,elbow shoulder . hip knee ankle
and beyond that
any point of cantact along your body bridging the opponents body can be used to disrupt balance or timing with or with out a horse to support the action

things just get natural

but the mental intent , the way fighting is approached and focused on
the acceptance and honesty of what a fight can become and to train with that filter
that would seem to be heart that beats beneath all the lines and angles .

just my 2 cents

[taltos]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
Presumably everyone here has the same goal namely to get better at WC so perhaps if we could get beyond lineage issues and petty interpersonal disputes we would find that more unites us then divides us.

Amen to that!

-Levi

[Ernie]

[[[
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Nick Forrer
Presumably everyone here has the same goal namely to get better at WC so perhaps if we could get beyond lineage issues and petty interpersonal disputes we would find that more unites us then divides us.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Amen to that!

-Levi]]]]


ditto :)

[Nick Forrer]

Hi ernie

If your saying that we shouldn't put things into boxs or rigid once and for all formulas i agree.

Wing chun is a flexible system. What matters are the core concepts- the techniques follow from the concepts rather than vice versa. To take just one example we are taught in the first section of snt to keep the elbow within the line of the body but then later on bil gee teaches us to bring it out and down if our hands are grabbed.

That said I think there are certain universal truths of fighting which when you break them down are really truths of physics and human physiology localised to the specfic context of hand to hand combat.

So yes the characterisitics i listed aren't the be all and end all of the wsl way (as you rightly point out) but they are i think its core or at least what fundamentally distinguishes it from other interpretations of wing chun that i have seen (which to repeat is only some not all or most)

Thanks for replying

regards

Nick

PS im one of clive's students- i know you post on his message board a lot

[Ernie]

nick

If your saying that we shouldn't put things into boxs or rigid once and for all formulas i agree.


[[[ that and sometimes what is 100% right at a certain level of learning is 100% wrong at another level , nothing is fixed everything by the nature of limiting itself to a definition then has a counter ]]]


nick
Wing chun is a flexible system. What matters are the core concepts- the techniques follow from the concepts rather than vice versa. To take just one example we are taught in the first section of snt to keep the elbow within the line of the body but then later on bil gee teaches us to bring it out and down if our hands are grabbed


[[[ and to take it a step furthur , if your sitting elevated in a bar stool and have to smash the guy in the face behind or to the side of you with a ash tray or bottle then your elbow might be in a completely different position]]


nick
That said I think there are certain universal truths of fighting which when you break them down are really truths of physics and human physiology localised to the specfic context of hand to hand combat


yep
different motors and different forms of transmissions are only as good as the time and place they are best at
:D

problem is that opens way to many realities , and not enough security blankets
unless you look at the similarites instead of the differences as was stated

cool chatting with you nick , and yep that's me causing trouble over at clives spot as well :D

[Ernie]

nick
BTW contrary to appearences im not a complete beginner

your to well versed to be a beginer , and in most ways we are all beginers :)

was also trying prevent a flame war on who's stance wieghting is the best , that's a tired old subject just like which and tan sau is better ,
every one is write and wrong depending on the situation

are you training with adam

[Nick Forrer]

Hi ernie

Yes in a sense we are all beginners- as you often point out there are many games out there other then wing chun. You only have to look at the Vanderlei Silvas of this world to see how effective they can be in the right hands. For my part i try not to get trapped in a wing chun box and to try it out against grapplers, thai boxers etc. However it is not always easy to find people who are willing or able!

I also appreciate that weight distribution, forward pressure etc have already been discussed here and are emotive subjects. Its a shame people cant talk about technical differences without getting offended-oh well.

Yes I train with Adam or at least try to whenever i get the chance. He is technically much better then me and is very powerful so its a good motivator to raise my game and to deal with what feels like a train charging at you (step back and change the angle as Clive keeps telling me). We are talking about starting a sunday sparring session soon which is as close to 100% as we can get but i need to get a good mouthguard first

BTW are you the guy that Gary is flinging into a mat on his po pai vcd? inquiring minds want to know

Later
Nick

[kj]

Hi Nick, pretty good starter posts - thanks for taking the time to contribute.

As for being perpetual beginners, I count it as a great thing. Better to learn for a lifetime and with an open mind, than deceive ourselves that we know it all.


Originally posted by Nick Forrer
Its a shame people cant talk about technical differences without getting offended-oh well.

Fortunately, and despite surrounding noise, some can. I already suspect you're among them. ;)

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

P.S. I'm one of those danged 100/0 people, LOL.

[Ernie]

nick
BTW are you the guy that Gary is flinging into a mat on his po pai vcd? inquiring minds want to know


ha ha no I was filming , but I have been tossed around for years , the worse part is when he sends you flying and catches you at the last seconds pulls you to the floor and as your trying to regain your dignity he sends you up and out while kicking and hitting you on the way out ,
he won't show his hand and leg combinations at speed , don't know why
I asked him to , but that's just something he keeps close to home .

hey let me give you a conceptual hint on dealing with strong forward intent
every ''energy / action '' has a beginning ,middle, and end
if you can feel the beginning no matter what it might build up to latter and stall that action , this will cause a momentary restart , at the point of restart or the point of change there is a window of opportunity
to be able to recognize this window and use it , is a very useful skill
lets say the art of fighting with out fighting , you see you never what to find out how powerful,fast,skilled the other person is
you never want to invite them into the fight ,
so you want to fighting but have there abilities no where in sight

this can also be applied to the middle and end of a action but the strategy is slightly different and the timing is different .

just a little food for thought learn to use a small pulse against a large one that is building . distract him , whisper in his ear like a annoying Nat while he is gathering the strength and mental focus to yell :D

kathy
girl you just stand how ever you please :D

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
hey let me give you a conceptual hint on dealing with strong forward intent
every ''energy / action '' has a beginning ,middle, and end
if you can feel the beginning no matter what it might build up to latter and stall that action , this will cause a momentary restart , at the point of restart or the point of change there is a window of opportunity
to be able to recognize this window and use it , is a very useful skill
lets say the art of fighting with out fighting , you see you never what to find out how powerful,fast,skilled the other person is
you never want to invite them into the fight ,
so you want to fighting but have there abilities no where in sight

this can also be applied to the middle and end of a action but the strategy is slightly different and the timing is different .

just a little food for thought learn to use a small pulse against a large one that is building . distract him , whisper in his ear like a annoying Nat while he is gathering the strength and mental focus to yell :D

Good stuff, Ernie. This is one of the many important elements involved when we use the term "sensitivity" or "listening skills." Good positioning and body mechanics (or "technique") along with that sensitivity provides increasing opportunity to exploit what you read with optimal timing.



kathy
girl you just stand how ever you please :D

Ha ha. Okay. :D

(Of course in actuality things are a lot more dynamic. ;) No one stands 100/0 or 50/50 all the time - at least I hope not! We move to and through these things, even when our underlying methods slightly differ.)

Regards,
- kj

[Ernie]

kathy
(Of course in actuality things are a lot more dynamic. No one stands 100/0 or 50/50 all the time - at least I hope not! We move to and through these things, even when our underlying methods slightly differ.)


i was just talking to gary last night about this , trying to pin down his footwork the when and why he does thing , he is so dame natural it's hard for an observer to tell what the heck is going on , looks like he is just walking , but when you touch hands with him you can feel the root and structure

he was harping on me to make my foot work more active , said i was being to stable ,
now mind you i trained boxing and weapons foot work for years so i'm really working on my '' wing chun foot work and position'' trying to isolate it and develop it .

once i told him this he just laughed and said foot work is a living changing thing , he doesn't understand why people are always trying to kill it , '' make it fit into a box of patterns''

in responce to my question on his foot work , he said i sit in my mind when i need power
and i move when i need to move

[old jong]

Good stuff Ernie!...
Being aware of the beginning of an action is one of the benefits of Chi Sau practice.This is where you learn to "fight without fighting"...A skill that can be used in fighting when needed.
You can jam the action or "arrive first" whatever the way you like to see it but it is always effective.A lot more effective than having to stop or redirect a strong and well formed attack.
This is the direct opposite of "chasing hands"
This is also a good way to treat feints the way they should be.
We are talking Wing Chun here!... ;)

[Ernie]

refreshing isn't it :D

o.k. lets look at this from another perspective
so in a perfect world we can shut off his engine before or as it starts

or we intercept his action mid way '' the most common wing chun timing ''


or we can follw the action back in after it has extended itself


now lets say we are ata disadvantage in [ for the sake of reference point ] chi sau
the other person is much taller with longer arms

do we
a. rush in and try to cover the distance
b. try and catch him in mid action
c. stay sightly out of his range and cause him to extend himself

now i know each can work
but lets look at it from a risk to reward ratio

just picking your brains

[Nick Forrer]

hi ernie

Clive like gary i suspect is scarily fast (especially given that he is in his mid 50's). He hit me the other day in chi sau and I swear i didn't see the punch till after it had hit me-something i think to do with the time it takes your brain to process raw visual information.

Two things which he keeps harping on about at the moment are
1) turning and in particular having crisp, fast, sharp, turning. This way it can be used to take yourself almost instantly from a vulnerable position to an advantageous one i.e. from them having the line on you to you having the line on them. It also gives your strikes the kind of inch power that is developed via the dummy and which you have discussed on another thread.
One WSL student he points to as a paradigm of this kind of crisp, sharp turning is chen kim man particuarly when he performs the turn and huen section of Bil Gee. Unfortunately he wouldn't let him video him doing this when he was last in hong kong.

and

2) Having light nimble zigzagging footwork that allows you to change direction quickly and if you are on the inside i.e. both hands in tan to open your opponent up. This is very hard to describe via the medium of the internet but i'm sure you know what i'm talking about. Its probably the most technical thing i have seen in wing chun to date.

We also do a stepping drill which Clive says he learnt in hong kong where one person steps in with tan and fook and the other steps back in fook and bong but in stepping back 1) changes the angle slightly so as get a line on the person moving in and 2) steps back slightly less then the person moving in so as to draw them on to the coming hits. You then huen sau both arms so that you are on the other side and repeat. Its a great drill and like bong lap there is much more to it then meets the eye.

[Ernie]

nick
i know exactly what your talking about ,
it comes down to alternating leads '' zig zag foot work ''
45,60,and 90 degree angles on entry or in disapation going to the 0 pressure side

''sorry if i don't give the wing chun names but i try to keep things in english as much as possible , so when i'm talking to non wing chun people i can get my point across''

the '' tan '' drill you speak of is a good one , we call it stepping or double tan
it contains the element s for thre actions at once ,taking a persons position, tracking a moving center ,
cutting on the 45 , mantaining distance and posture

very good drill i always go back to it and find more

i have seen clive on tape and he is very crisp and clear in his actions , and he give a very good seminar by the way , i'm not big into forms but he did point out a few things that actually got me up to practice them :D


by the way the zig zag foot work will gain life when you start doing the knife and sparring /tracking very mobile partners

it great to read your post your giving me training flashbacks when things were so magical
:D

[Nick Forrer]

Hi ernie

I'm glad you liked Clives vid. Im assuming its the SNT seminar one?

Do you remember the part where he punches Adam in the chest from one inch range and Adam stumbles back? I thought of that when you were discussing fa jing elsewhere. I dont like to ask Clive about power genration as he generally likes to demonstrate on the person asking rather then try and explain it. However the phrase he most often uses is 'connection with the floor' and how it is 'all in the waist' i.e. in the turn.

He also uses the analogy of a sling shot which you ****, aim and then release.

Oh and he loathes mechanical, circular chain punches perfomed from far away with no waist or power behind them:)

[Ernie]

nick
yep it was the slt seminar and i liked it very much , i have seen clive,david peterson , gary , and i have a few tapes of wong all doing forms and giving seminars , and each of them point out different things and many universal things , i tend to focus on the universal things since they are the thread that binds

nick
Oh and he loathes mechanical, circular chain punches perfomed from far away with no waist or power behind them

it's funny when i first started to learn wing chun it was very punch oriented , but now that i have been demystified and have seen many skilled people from different families '' the thread that binds '' the skilled people is control and feeling , understanding position and when to shoot from a stable platform
don't hit to much , and don't be afraid to be hit comes to mind :D


oh i forgot as for adam please pass on a hello and best wishes i had a few very interesting emails with him , and he left me with a very good impression.

work hard my friend but don't forget to have fun along the way:D

[Nick Forrer]

Hi ernie

I have had the pleasure of chi sauing with Dave P when he came over to do a seminar here in July so along with Clive, Anthony Kan and Wan Kam Leung that makes four original students of WSL that i have touched hands with. If Cliff au yeung comes over in 2004 I hope to make it five.

Each one was different and yet each one had a similar thread running through it as you rightfully point out.

Will pass regards on to Adam and also your kind words to Clive at training tommorrow. Please tell Gary i enjoyed his VCD's v much and hope one day to meet him in the flesh.

Taking your advice, i'm now going to a xmas party:)

[Sekabin]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
I haven't watched the WSL wing chun video in years so forgive me if I remember wrong but I seem to recall him having a ready stance with his weight already shifted all to one side ie. thereby seemingly restricting further turning of the stance if attacked from the opposite side

Can somebody explain this to me?


Thanks.

EC

Yes - if he's attacked on one side he can turn. If he's attacked on the other side, he's effectively already in a front stance (that doesn't mean you can't still generate energy of course). It's how I fight a lot of the time and works well for me. :)

[Nick Forrer]

I think the key word here is 'seemingly'.:)

[Ernie]

[[[[I seem to recall him having a ready stance with his weight already shifted all to one side]]]]]

stances , are poses ,moments frozen in time , they are meaningless , how much weight so-n-so has on there big toe when they do this or that , it will just take you down the road of endless ridicules debates that have nothing to do with fighting

study how a man moves , look for the balance in motion and transmisson of power , his timing ,his feel and rhythm

sadly people get all caught up on things that are static , elbow here , toes facing this way, knees bent 3 degrees instead 3.5 all these silly little security blankets .
they stare at picture and argue how this and that does or does not work ,
every body wants to crystallize things and then pick it apart it's hilarious , and then they come up with drills to prove there way is best .

a whole lot of intellectual marketing ploys mixed in with a little scientific test tube lab experierments , that work only in controlled environments .

so it's easy to get blinded by shinny little bobbles that distract us form the reality that anything can work at any given time , a circle can beat a straight line , a toe can be more powerful then a heal , in the real world they gray area is vast
the only certainty is uncertainty
it's a mans attribute that make things work
study his essence not what direction his pinkie finger is pointing

just a few random thoughts to be tossed into the mix

nick
been reading a few of your post , not that I'm anybody special but good stuff and well put :)

[Ernie]

I'm not trying to be difficult , but ready stance in regard to what
to that particular moment in time , that particular demo,
and , what do you mean ready , ready for what ?
one guy , two guys , one guy with a knife , or perhaps just standing there looking at the sunset
is he ready for an attack , would he walk down the street in this fashion .
if in wing chun we are taught to attack any posture presented , why would we then present a fixed posture

it's the whole finger and the moon thing , don't look so closely at the still image take in the essence of motion , is it not that motion which hits
should you not be able to fire from any ''stance '' and '' position '' from any side or hand or foot

or do we seek to be one dimensional and limit our selves to a tidy little box of set motions and stances .

Wong was all about using wing chun not being trapped by it .
you see what I'm getting at .

so who cares how wong stood on that particular day , how will you stand , move , react today

:D

[Ernie]

The way I would expect him to do it would be to have a "neutral" stance in the YGKYM with his hand guarding the centerline


that is a training stance not a way to fight , i have never seen in my limited exposure any wsl , any one else use YGKYM in a combative live situation

but then again there might be some out there :)

[Ernie]

what opponent are you planning to engage ?
if your out of range does it really matter
if your in range you should be in motion so there is no fixed stance

do you know when your opponent is coming , what if you are surprised , or sitting down or in the water , what stance would you use then?

simply just stand as if you were waiting for a bus at the bus stop and move when it's time
like when the bus driver opens the door

empty cup if you say you have no set style ''way'' then why look so hard for one
just embrace your freedom

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi EC,

I don't think you should assume any stance. In my line, if the opponent does not pose any immediate threat, you don't have to do anything. However, as he moves in closer, you position yourself in such a way as to "cover" the space. How you cover depends on how your opponent comes in and where his hands and feet are at the time. It may be as simple as sinking a bit or adjusting a hand half an inch. Or you may feel an opening and suddenly dart forward. The point is that you don't have a static "on guard" position. You also don't have pre-set positions to go to (right hand at gate 4 and left foot at gate 6). It's much more organic than that, and it depends on the other guy.

My perception on things anyway.

Regards,
Alan

[Ernie]

empty cup

I'm really not trying to be a smart a $$ I'm trying to give you the best answer I can that is honest .
if I told you Wong would step with his left foot in and then his left foot out then he did the hooky poky and moved it all about .

you would then say well looking at that example , it wouldn't work because I could come in on his left upper flank with a scud missile and pop out his right eye lash .

and then I could say , no because he would activate his green lantern ring , find his wonder twin power and take the shape of the space shuttle and fly over your scud missile and take out your big toe .


and so on and so on

and just as silly as this description sounds , it would be just as silly to focus on a fixed moment of time , and a particular position

[David Peterson]

Well said Ernie, ...once again we are seeing people so busy staring at the finger that they are missing all that heavenly glory. Wing Chun is not about this technique, that stance or those combinations; it's about applying logical concepts in a totally adaptable way to whatever situation confronts us. You don't make the situation fit the martial art; the martial art has to adapt to the situation. Whether the weight is on the left foot or the right foot, spread 50/50 or 70/30, or whatever, is not the most important consideration. Stance, posture, hand positions, etc are all in a constant state of change, if not, one is destined to be destroyed by the opponent in the same way that a brick wall will be smashed to pieces by a collision with a car. Sifu taught us to be alive in our thinking and our fighting, not to be bogged down by rules or restrictions, not to over-analyse the system to the point where we let our imagination override our logic. He WAS a brilliant technician and he DID emphasise the need for correct structure in training, getting the forms "right" and using them as a tool towards achieving the goal of survival. However, he did NOT indulge in unnecessary pre-posturing or fancy combinations. For him, Wing Chun was a tool to be used to complete a job, and the more SIMPLE, DIRECT and EFFICIENT, the better. He had two overriding principles which he stated time and time again: "Allow your opponent to show you how to hit him," and "Always use the closest weapon to attack the nearest target." The rest was up to the individual to develop through constant and rigorous training. The posture he displays on the video is just one way that he might choose to stand IF he had the time to decide on a stance, such as when a controlled situation was about to begin (ie: accepting a challenge from an obliging adversary wishing to test a technique, such as in a classroom experiment), whereas in actual combat, who knows what he might have used because he might be standing, seated, leaning against a wall, halfway through a step, and so on. Fighting is like time: it DOES NOT stand still, but is constantly in motion. If you want to survive, you too must be alive and in motion, not worrying about how you are balanced, which hand is up or down, or where your pinkie finger is pointing. All of that should have been taken care of already during your training of the forms and other drills. People have been asking what the difference is between the WSL Method and other lineages....it's that we are not robots, merely mimicking our teacher, ...we make Wing Chun concepts work for us, as opposed to becoming slaves to Wing Chun.
DMP

[Ernie]

david
wow thanks for dropping you 2 cents , from you it's more like $1.50 haha

i hope all is well in your world , i'm still watching those tapes you sent and learning more all the time , thanks again

email me sometime if your life ever slows down and your bored , i got some stuff i would love to ask you , just don't want to pester you :)


be well
ernie

[old jong]

I like that pic of WSL (http://www.arti-marziali.it/images/wong_kick.jpg)

[Ernie]

thank you o.j.
i didn't have that one

david i just pm'd you

[KenWingJitsu]

once i told him this he just laughed and said foot work is a living changing thing , he doesn't understand why people are always trying to kill it , '' make it fit into a box of patterns''

Awesome. The amazing this is after reading this thread, this is something wc peeps will never pay attention to.....but if you tell them to squeeze their sphincter in a set "stance", well, the er...exitement builds. ;) Oh well, let those who are able to learn, learn. Those who want to dissect a corpse.......go 'head.




stances , are poses ,moments frozen in time , they are meaningless , how much weight so-n-so has on there big toe when they do this or that , it will just take you down the road of endless ridicules debates that have nothing to do with fighting

Ernie!!!!!!:D


that is a training stance not a way to fight , i have never seen in my limited exposure any wsl , any one else use YGKYM in a combative live situation

Have I told you lately I love you? :D

Bro, obviously they ain't ready for this man. lol. You are dropping MAD science on 'em and still...they aint getting it. *sigh* They just need to train with you sometime.
Peeps, what he's saying is a fight is about MOTION, not stances. Whocares if you're 50-50 when you "turn"...what are you doing to a guy trying to remove your head witha haymaker? sit in YJKKM whatever. (KKM LOL!!! - inside joke!) Just frigging fight!!! MOVE!!!!. Practice posture and movement, not "stances".

[Ernie]

dhira '' kwj ''
[[[[but if you tell them to squeeze their sphincter in a set "stance"]]]]

dude i'm crying , next time i run into a '' immovable stance '' i'm gonna hit'em wit my stinky exlax fist :eek: :eek: :eek:

don't for get to grip the floor with your toes

and make sure your next to water so you can develop your chi :p

[Ernie]

ec
Ernie, does that answer your question?

actually no , and yes
no since I might just happen to have my hands in my pocket at the time ,
I don't stand I relate to my opponent , I feel distance with my eyes , I intercept with my awareness , this comes from spending allot of time with skilled fighters and highly mobile people ,
I do allot of weapons sparring were if you stand in any way for to long you will get hit or cut .

again I relate , make constant adjustments , never give him a read .

how can I express a diagram of broken rhythm
that's why I said study the essence of a person
there feel

now this is in a situation were you are squared up with some one who you know you are going to fight '' how rare is that in the real world , you won't have the luxury of assuming a by jong stance , you must fire from were ever from when ever

I wasn't trying to be disrespectful to you at all , I was just being as honest as I could be and trying to give you a broader view from my perspective .

and now the yes part , I do respect that you wish to understand how others operate ,
you should study and understand '' styles ''

but in understanding 'styles' you will see the flaws with having a obvious pattern, of stance or thought or approach your so called strength will become your weakness

as for how I was taught by my teacher , well for a fixed drill you have a fixed posture since you are simulating a point in time to gain experience in that particular point in time so you freeze it and repeat it .
stances vary depending on the moment .

am I working for example a pak sau drill , or a clinch drill, or a kicking drill you see each one requires a different body posture .

I guess if you really need an answer it would be my stance is the most balance position I could be in at the time .

again I was not trying to be disrespectful to your question I answer from the heart and from my limited experience

I don't want to lie to you and make a definitive statement when one doesn't exist

that would be disrespectful to your intelligence

[Ernie]

oh i totally agree most styles have a set posture , in the ring you need a very tight protective shell and postion were you can fire of the tools allowed by rules
also most ''ring '' styles have the same power source , rotaional torque
this dictactes there firing platform

but we were talking about wsl wing chun

the power source is different

but lets step out a little furthur watch to knife fighters spar and see how often the set a posture

get in a two on one situation , no time for anytype of posture

you have to have a fluid adaptable , mobile , fireing platform

wing chun has it's basics square body so both hands can reach , elbow down stuff like that
but you as a person you have to work with what ever the situation calls for '' steal your stance in motion''

if you have a ''stance and need a ''stance '' then is a sense you are chasing hands and being telegraphed
by chasing a stance , then you can't fire off with out having prerequisites , this is not economical or efficient

but if you have developed a good sense of balance in motion then is doesn't really matter since it comes together on the way .

[Sekabin]

with all respect. this talk about 'no stance' is bollox. I'm sure WSL would be the first to admit that WC power comes from the stance (i.e. whole body connection... you're not seeing stance as just the position of the feet etc are you?). 'Stance' is fundamental - its where WC comes from. Lose that and you've lost one of the most important parts that separates WC from kickboxing etc...

:D

[Ernie]

[[with all respect. this talk about 'no stance' is bollox]]

the stance we were talking about was , prefight posture

that stance you are reffering to is power generation

neither is fixed , though in the begining ''robotic state '' it would appear that way

this is cus you don't own it yet , it owns you

once it's a natural part of your motion and expression , it's more of a mind ground explosive thing . then a stck figure pose

a skilled person can walk around as natural as can be , and tap into that power '' stance '' only for the instant they need it

a not quite as skilled person will have to assume a platform to fire from , both work one just takes more time to ''rev up '' the engine

[Sekabin]

Originally posted by Ernie
[[with all respect. this talk about 'no stance' is bollox]]

the stance we were talking about was , prefight posture
Oh I see, we're talking about posturing :D

Does your posture change depending on what kind of 'fight' it is - i.e. a sparring match/jumped upon? Do you stand with your hands in your pockets? You legs crossed? Why? Why not? I'm presuming you don't stand with your legs crossed and your hands in your pockets (correct me if I'm wrong).



this is cus you don't own it yet , it owns you

LOL! Stance is part of my body. My body can only do certain movements - my body therefore 'owns' me. Nothing to do with stance. Some things are more efficient than other things. That's why I raised power generation. Some 'stances' are more efficient at fighting... some 'prefight postures' are more efficient. If not, then you may as well stand, or even sit with legs folded, your hands in your pockets, or your fingers in your ears...

[Ernie]

sekiban
[[Does your posture change depending on what kind of 'fight' it is - i.e. a sparring match/jumped upon? Do you stand with your hands in your pockets? You legs crossed? Why? Why not? I'm presuming you don't stand with your legs crossed and your hands in your pockets (correct me if I'm wrong). ]]


i might have my hands in my pocket and i might be a sleep in my bed , i might be swimming in a pool , or snowboarding

you can't crystallize time and place it will be when it is , and you will be positioned as you are
i know this is not the '' pretty little picture '' that is sold to us in the m.a. world but chaos is real , just learn to accept it and adapt
hopefully your training has given you the tools to find balance position and posture , and hopefully that conditioned response will be the right one
:)



[[[Some things are more efficient than other things.]]]

yes and no

in regards to what conditions and elements
and what oppertunity you have , you must use what ever you can , with in the time frame available

if you only look at it froma static body mechanic point of view every one has a superior '' stance '' a boxer's is better for boxing , a thai fighter is better for thai fighting
and so on and so on further and further into a endless debate of static concepts

just use what works for you and be happy you have it
i prefer to as you put it ''stand, or even sit with legs folded, your hands in your pockets, or your fingers in your ears...'''

:D

[Nick Forrer]

Maybe the following example will help to make things clearer.

I'm told that whenever WSL chi sau'd his fook sau would be extremely loose and there would be a big gap which anyone thinking offensively would try and penetrate. However as soon as they moved in out of nowhere his elbow would appear not only shutting them down but also hitting them very hard. Aparently one of my classmates was knocked on to his backside and across the room by this move. Of course Wong would never advocate that someone learning should have this much play/leave this much room with their fook sau/elbow. This does not make him a hypocrite however. The point is that at his level he could be free to do what he wanted because he had the skill and the sensitivity to place his elbow there when he needed to.

The same reasoning can imo be applied to the stance i.e. when you are at a high level it is there when you need it.

Now the question is have i shed some light with this example or simply muddied the waters?:( ;)

[Sekabin]

Originally posted by Nick Forrer
Maybe the following example will help to make things clearer.

I'm told that whenever WSL chi sau'd his fook sau would be extremely loose and there would be a big gap which anyone thinking offensively would try and penetrate. However as soon as they moved in out of nowhere his elbow would appear not only shutting them down but also hitting them very hard. Aparently one of my classmates was knocked on to his backside and across the room by this move. Of course Wong would never advocate that someone learning should have this much play/leave this much room with their fook sau/elbow. This does not make him a hypocrite however. The point is that at his level he could be free to do what he wanted because he had the skill and the sensitivity to place his elbow there when he needed to.

A very good example. We could of course argue that he fell into the correct position when necessary. Or that he was simply using a different form of positioning that enabled him 'leak' (letting them in). We could transfer all of that to stance. What Ernie seems to be suggesting is 'no position' - or am I misinterpreting??? If I am then I apologise.

[Sekabin]

Originally posted by Ernie
if you only look at it froma static body mechanic point of view every one has a superior '' stance '' a boxer's is better for boxing , a thai fighter is better for thai fighting
and so on and so on further and further into a endless debate of static concepts


I *know* you're going to jump on me for saying this, telling me that I'm a 'slave to the system' but I'll say it anyway :) ...

I *do* think a boxer's stance is better for boxing, and a thai fighter for thai fighting... if not, why have ygkym at all? Why have the forms? Why learn any wc positions? We all know that when you get to an 'advanced' level you can seemingly throw away some of these things when you fight, but are you actually throwing them away?... can't point to the moon without a finger.

[sticky fingers]

Confucious say: Man who enters fight with hands in pockets is feeling a little (ocky...

Perhaps what Ernie is not making clear is the type of situation he is referring to.
If you were jumped on the street, of course you will have to fight from where you are- sitting, standing , eating, whatever.

If it was a pre-determined fight e.g sparring then of course you would ready yourself in a stance more suited for fighting - the 'pre-fight posture'

[Sekabin]

Originally posted by sticky fingers

If you were jumped on the street, of course you will have to fight from where you are- sitting, standing , eating, whatever.

Ahh... well I don't know anyone who would disagree with that. Would be a bit difficult to get into a horse stance when laying in bed. Does anyone actually teach teach the in-bed or sitting on the floor horse stance?... :confused:

[Ernie]

sekabin
[[A very good example. We could of course argue that he fell into the correct position when necessary. Or that he was simply using a different form of positioning that enabled him 'leak' (letting them in). We could transfer all of that to stance. What Ernie seems to be suggesting is 'no position' - or am I misinterpreting??? If I am then I apologise.]]]

i agree a very clever and clear example , very good post nick

[[What Ernie seems to be suggesting is 'no position' - or am I misinterpreting??? If I am then I apologise.]]]

first of all no need to apologise i love hearing others views it makes me think about what i am saying from different angles , so thank you for that , i would like to thank empty cup as well .

what i mean is to avoid having a preconditioned need to assume a ''stance '' a ''security blanket or the need for training wheels'' like wongs elbow it should be there only when you need it , thus not giving away and extra information to your opponent .
now of course you must learn and refine these ''free and natural positions '' with static postures forms and drills , we must become some what mechanical to then become natural, it's just how we learn .
the problem is during the ''robot '' stage we get a sense of enpowerment , like when you learn to peddle your bike fast and do turns with the training wheels still on .
people become comfortable there , and since wing chun is a good system even early on they are somewhat effective .
but they never go to the next level , the feeling ,controlling and natural expression level .[ not to say that i'm there yet either , but i am striding in that direction as best i can]

but first one must accept that , they can evolve '' remove the training wheels '' and they must accept all the new and wonderful uncomfortable feelings that will come with leaving behind the security blanket .
this is hard for those that feel proficient in the robotic stage , a phrase passed on to me comes to mind '' 30% of wing chun can rule the world ''
and thus so many become lazy ,and fixed

who's to say one is right and the other is wrong as long as they are happy .
but if we are to speak of the wsl mind set , we must leave behind our training wheels , and maybe float our elbows once in a while
:D

[Ernie]

i would like to ad one more thing if i may

is fighting not a form of gambling , since the out come /line or type of attack / or type of opponent can not be predetermined ,

then how can one stance or position be 100% correct ,at best 90 % with 10% room to adapt

here is another example ,
I do this with wing chun people I meet all the time '' my own gung fu brothers as well''
I have the match me I a cross hand position , right hand to right hand matching '' mirrored'' traditional wing chun stances and I tell them to pak da my arm in a fixed position , and bam the do it perfectly ,
then i stay in the same stance and dis engage my hand and just fire a vertical punch and have them pak it , bam again perfect , so by now I have a nice read forearm and they feel real good ,
then I commit a sin
I step back about 5 feet or so , ask them to stand like they naturally would in everyday life .
I hold up my hand in a fixed position and ask them to pak it .
and them most amazing thing happens ,
the first drop in to there stance [[ the clock is ticking ]] line themselves up and lunge forward in a chum kui type , step and punch fashion [[[ clock still ticking ]]] and tear into my arm slightly over committed .

hmmmm I think now that whole episode took like an hour with respect to fight time .

o.k.
I point this out and ask them to try it again just from the natural posture with out all the preconditioned set up . and they have a very difficult time adjusting ,there balance and intent is way off , they get visibly uncomfortable .

I n turn ask them to hold up there arm and blast into them from what ever posture I can think of , what ever lead or foot work ,

and I get the '' how can you move so fast '' and I answer how is it you can't .
my discovery came from working my entry on boxers , intercepting the fast guys with fast hands and fast elusive foot work , my mental trigger had to compensate ,my body had to learn to follow my thoughts , I had to eat allot of punches before I got good balance while moving .

now I know it was not fair to do this since many have not had the particular experience I had , and in other aspects of wing chun they could mop the floor with me .

but I did learn allot about '' stances''

[PaulH]

Hi Folks,

Down at home with a stomach flu for last two days, but since this thread is quite interesting I will add in my feverish sense! One time I asked Gary why WSL liked his "beimo stance" so much where the body is slightly turned from the neutral posture shielding the groin. Initially I was expecting some sort of WC benefits and so I was somewhat surprised to hear that against such stance or posture Gary would step back a little first outside the range. The logic is you can't tell how he will move or attack from which particular hands or legs. It's better to wait a little to see more how he will commit his attack by reaching to you. The stance/posture then should give you the best available options while revealing nothing in itself. Having no stance appears to do just that purpose. Interestingly, Mushashi in his last famous battle against the long sword opponent is recorded to be very natural and unorthodox in his stance. He just flowed with the surrounding and shattered his opponent's skull with the wooden sword while missing narrowly a much longer sword lash aimed at his head. The opponent thought that he had Mushashi only to find out how fatally wrong he had miscalculated. What you see is deceiving.

Regards,

PH

[yuanfen]

The Mushashi trilogy is agreat series of movies- he got both swords out in the last move- if memory serves.

[Nick Forrer]

Just thought i'd direct anyone reading this thread to a group of FREE articles some by my instructor, some by others and some by wong himself called 'the ving tsun files'

They are available on his website

www.wongvingtsun.co.uk

regards

Nick

[yuanfen]

Nick- I have nothing but complete respect for WSL. But the site says that he never lost a fight. A definitional thing perhaps.
I had heard from someome in a different lineage- not mine-
that there was a match up in Taiwan where WSL was doing well- but all of a sudden the other guy got him witha powerful kick to the stomach...?

[Sekabin]

Originally posted by Ernie
i would like to ad one more thing if i may
I do this with wing chun people I meet all the time '' my own gung fu brothers as well''

Interesting description, but what a ridiculous demonstration! I can understand how this gets an effect with beginner wc people, but if you stood some distance away with your arm out and asked a reasonable wc guy to 'pak your arm' they'd look at you gone out. The question would be 'why?'. It's a false test.

Good wc people train their footwork to be mobile and elusive too - but its still *wc* footwork, and *wc* stances. What you're saying is nothing new, except its useful to learn by sparring with other stylists, eg boxers.

From what you wrote I'd just say you haven't had the opportunity to play with good wc people... :confused:

[Nick Forrer]

Hi Joy

If memory serves the site says 'is said to have never lost a fight' not 'never lost a fight'. Maybe its pedantic of me but i feel that there is a difference in semantics here (sorry just warming up for a career in advocacy).

FWIW these men are not Gods and the better fighter does not always win (Exhibit A: Lewis v Rahman take 1)

I even have video footage where Wong forgets the knife form half way through:p

Wong by his own admission was beaten twice when he first went to Ip man. Once by Ip man and once by his senior student.

Regards

Nick

[PaulH]

Hi Joy,

I think Mushashi used only the wooden sword that he carved out while sitting on the boat rowing to the appointed "beimo" place from both accounts of the popular movie as well as the historical novel series. Needless to say it took a while and the opponent was furious thinking M. was deliberately stalled to get him upset. Strange that in the most important fight of his life he let go of his unique two sword advantage.

Regards,

PH

[Sekabin]

Hi Joy, Hi Paul,

If either of you gets chance to see the recent NHK Musashi series, you'll get to see that his second most important tactic was to use matrix style leaping in the air! :D

Sek.

[PaulH]

I believe you even though I have not seen it yet, Sek! The HK movie must have their popular flying trademark! Ha! Ha!

Regards,

PH

[Sekabin]

To get back on topic, this interview with WSL is right on the mark in many respects: http://www.vingtsun-system.de/index.php?action=show&type=news&id=19

Sek.

[PaulH]

Thanks, Sek. I did not know that Wendy Lee is Wong's sister and that Barry Lee Sifu is his brother-in-law! Thumbs up from my bed-ridden corner!

[Ernie]

sekiban
[[From what you wrote I'd just say you haven't had the opportunity to play with good wc people... ]]

from your frame of thought , that would be the obvious conclusion:)
thank you for your wisdom and sharing of personal and original thoughts and experiences

it would seem you have the experience and are truly a '' centered individual ''




kwj
[[Bro, obviously they ain't ready for this man. lol. You are dropping MAD science on 'em and still...they aint getting it. *sigh* ]]]
i know , i'm a sucker i keep up hope :D

[Ernie]

empty cup
you describe the thought process of one who is seeking to be techniclly profecient in all aspects of wing chun '' training ''

were things are easy to disect from a arm chair perspective ,

this is a good hobby

then there is the minset of actual application were things arn't easy to quantify

it's very safe to sit back and nit pick every little nuaunce , when your not in there ,

you could spend decades perfecting your tan sau , stance , punch .
what ever perfecting means to you .

or you could spend the time applying it in a hostile situation and base your training and refine ment from your personal experience .
some teachers are just technitions and thus repeat the information they recieve and pass it on exactly the same way , which is very honorable .

then there are those that test it and refine it and have there students test and refine , thus keeping it a living breathing process .

one is not anymore valid then the other . it's a matter of preference .

if i meet some one who has a deeper iu derstanding of the forms , and the history and every little detail then me .
and i square up with him and shut him down .
my need for wing chun was satified .
when that person gets up he can explain to me why his ''way '' should have shut me down .
and we can go at it again .
and most of the time i get the same results
this has happened to me quite a bit , some of these guys had a decade on me and were teachers .
i respect there knowledge and there love and passion for the art .
but that part is not my main concern it's simply application under pressure .
this is the wsl mindset .
not good not bad just is what it is

if you don't like it just dismiss it as rubbish , no problem what so ever .

[Ernie]

it's a good thing to have different view's
it keeps us on our toes ,
it's just a matter of mindset , since this started out as a wsl thread , that is the mindset I will answer with , '' to the best of my potential.

sifu Peterson passed on a story about Wong that really hits home , with this particular discussion .
[ during a seminar a person from the crowd asked Wong '' how do you deal with a kicker '' wsl answered,
just move in ,
this was unacceptable to the person and through out the seminar he kept asking the same question
'' how do you deal with a good kicker ''
to which wsl answered , just move in
this person became frustrated since he was looking for a fixed technique , something solid to hold on to or take apart .
but yet he got his answer all along .

thus I have given you the answer as best as I could with in my frame of thought , and expressing the mind set of wsl system .

there is no fixed pattern or stance , it's just adaptive .
what is fixed is the training of the system , were you develop your balance and structure and sensitivity ,
but the application is a living thing .

now this still maybe unacceptable to you , but I wanted to give it one more honest shot .

[Ernie]

ec
i do think i understand
how do we refine and re enforce the correct idea's and concepts and body structure , if i say there is not fixed way

am i correct.

[Nick Forrer]

Or maybe to put the problem another way

How can we emphasis that in fighting there are no fixed formulas and no certain outcomes without also implying that anything goes and that no response is better than any other.

The easy answer of course would be to say that the best technique is whichever one does the job at the time that it is required but that is hardly illuminating-indeed it is little better then a tautology.

Don't know if this is helpful but anyway.........

regards

Nick

[Ernie]

what you said nick but different

so perhaps the real mystery behind the scenes of this difference of opinion is simply this
'' how do we start out natural , become robots , and then return to our natural state with the skill gained during our '' fixed '' training ?

when are you truly expressing your art , with your own personality and character and natural attributes .
when do you leave the womb '' fixed aspect '' were it is so safe and warm and everything makes sense and everything works just like your sifu said it would , this picture perfect place filled with the nostalgia of the ancients that did all the work for us ?

when does the water break , and we hit the cold hard floor '' reality '' naked and scared , vulnerable and alone .
when do we take our first steps on a road filled with rocks and broken glass , were the pain is not just in the body but in the mind spirit and most of all the ''ego ''
because in this terrible place things don't quite fit they way the you were told they were supposed to .
in this strange un friendly place circle beats straight lines , and raw muscle runs you over , you meet these un earthly creatures that defy all the perfect rules and idea's that you trained so hard to absorb ,
were even when your right your still wrong .

this is a much to uncomfortable place , better to stay in the womb were you can be embraced by straight lines , and locked hips and chi ,and flat feet . were how much weight you have on your back leg matters , and if you stand a certain way and place your hands in a specific position , and follow all the rules you can't be touched , or taken down .

some baby's leave the womb , some are taken out by c section , still some just live and die there .

so how do we draw out the baby from the cave '' the safe place '' , show him the sky , and teach him to fly

how do you go from natural , to robotic , to natural with robotic refinement ?

[Ernie]

ec
[[i'm saying how can you differentiate when SOMEbody is doing something wrong in the style when it's not wrong when one person can use it in a fight]]

at that time if it worked it was obviouly right , since it worked
styles sre just dead things , how can the dead tell you how to live ,,,at best it can only give you an idea , but you the living breathing factor will decide how to best use that idea , to fit your abilities and charactor.

ec
[[Bad habits are bad habits regardless if a person can still win all the time]]

bad habits tested under pressure will die , unless the person has superrior attributes , so what is more important good habits , or developing your attributes hmmmm...
god for bid you do both:D


ec
[[[regardless there are those who can use it and be perfect within the definitions of the style. if it is not important to be technically perfect as possible then wing chun is no different than karate or taekwondo or any other art. it's the technicalities that distinguish us, not fighting philosophy only.]]

wing chun is no different , it is a training syetem just like the rest ,
why can a good karate fighter beat a wing chun man hmmm
simple it comes down to the indvidual , and those darn attributes again .
who is more natural , more relaxed , better speed,power,timing .adaptabilty and experience . but the most important one of all who was just plain lucky that day ......

[AndrewS]

Lemme chime in on this one-

my answer to this is 'let Darwin be your teacher'. Create situations in which you must develop good 'habits' (attributes and skills), and refine away bad ones.

If you drop your hands before a punch, you have someone try to eat that hole, round after round, out of every possible scenario- jabs, all straight punches, all punches, all punches and kicks, punch kick knee elbow, punches and takedowns, kicks and takedowns, free, etc., always looking for the hole. This is what good training partners do- you ask 'em to abuse a mistake and they punish you for it.

Build good habits- play the same idea of progression with timing and range work. Work from abstract biomechanical drills to application, teaching and refining, then using mechanics and feel.

Later,

Andrew

[Nick Forrer]

Just thought i'd post my favourite pic of Wong:D

[PaulH]

Some years ago I had the pleasure of chatting with John Smith Sifu. He was kind and generous enough to provide me several of his interviews with many old WSL's students. I thought I should include this particular unedited one in full on this thread as it has some relevances to the ongoing discussion.

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Don’t give the enemy any chance

Ko Kin is one of the late great Wong Shun Leung`s early students, this interview was taken during the author`s visit to Hong Kong, back in 1998, not long after the untimely passing of Wong Sifu.

Ko Kin runs a small, but very busy school in the Wan Chai district of Hong Kong. This interview gives an insight as to how one man believes Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) to be performed.


John Smith Tell me how you got involved with Wong Shun Leung, Ving Tsun.

Ko Kin I was introduced to Sifu Wong Shun Leung by another student called Wan Kam Leung more than thirty (30) years ago. Wong Sifu was just starting to teach then and his hand techniques were devastating, as he was constantly testing them against other martial artists in many of his Bei Mo (Challenge fights) where he was never defeated.

Wong Sifu authorised me many years ago to teach at the Ving Tsun Athletic Association, but now I teach in Wan Chai. I used not to teach Ving Tsun so openly but some friends of mine who are teachers in other martial arts, think that it is a pity that I was not teaching to the public as they all agreed that my hand technique was very effective.

John Smith What attracted you to Ving Tsun?

Ko Kin As compared to other styles of Kung Fu it is more effective in a shorter period of time by the very nature of the use of Chi Sau (sticking hands). When trained properly this drill enables one to automatically flow on from one technique into another with out any interruption to the sequence of attack.

John Smith It has long been known that Wong Sifu was never defeated in any of the “no-holds” barred versions of challenge matches. Did you ever witness any of these events?

Ko Kin Yes, of course many times I viewed these events but these bouts were always extremely short. His hand technique was very effective and there was never any wasted motion in what he used to defeat his opponents. Many times he would only use only a couple of techniques and the bout would be over very quickly with himself always as the victor.

John Smith It has long been known that Wong Sifu was also a teacher to the late great movie star, Bruce Lee. Did you ever have any contact with Bruce Lee or did you ever Chi Sau with him?

Ko Kin Yes, I remembered him well. But as to myself actually physically training with him, I can’t recall it.

John Smith Did you ever meet the late great master, Yip Man?

Ko Kin Yes, I did. He was a very old man who used to come in to visit and to talk at Wong Sifu’s school. At that time, Wong Sifu was teaching at Yaumati, Nathan Road.



John Smith What do you consider to be the main principles of Ving Tsun?

Ko Kin There are actually two (2) main principles that I consider to be most important. One is the punch, it is the most direct method to hit an opponent and the attack is paramount to prevent him from countering you. Next is the stance, as you need to chase aggressively, so it is difficult for your opponent to maintain balance and composure. Do not give the opponent any opportunity to attack you. There is no need to just block and then hit, it needs to be done at the same time. These movements are very direct and do not resemble what is seen in the movies. Ving Tsun is a real style for fighting and is not used for any flashy demonstration.

John Smith What is the main importance of Chi Sau?

Ko Kin There are many variations and thus it is an important drill to be used for real life fighting. It also promotes a habit to develop instinctive reactions to your opponent’s force. Some people in other countries I have heard practise Ving Tsun and place little or no importance on Chi Sau and instead use set routines, maybe they do not really understand Ving Tsun and they should really be doing something else. Chi Sau is not used for planned attacks and defences. It is used in a situation where anything and everything can happen. You should not need to think about what you are going to do, but to merely feel your opponent’s force, deflect it and penetrate through to your opponent. Do not follow your opponent’s hands, but follow your opponent with your punches.

John Smith Many people have borrowed on or seen Ving Tsun hand techniques, but can you comment on Ving Tsun footwork?

Ko Kin Footwork should only be used for controlling the enemy and disrupting his balance and then attack with the hands. Never give your enemy any chance.


Note : John Smith is a follower of the Wong Shun Leung way of Ving Tsun. Having trained under Wong Sifu in Hong Kong on manyl occasions, with the added support of Sifu David Peterson from Melbourne Australia. He can be contacted via his e-mail address at :- jsmith@shoal.net.au.


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Merry Chrismas and Happy New Years!

Regards,

PH

[Ernie]

thanks paul:)

[yuanfen]

Some time ago I had an extensive round of correspondence with someone who was learning from Ko Kin sifu---he is very good-himself and in his teaching.

[PaulH]

Hi Joy,

Ko Kin Sifu is indeed a very colorful man. My old French coaches - Jean Marc and Chan Keo like him a lot as they often retold me tales of how they received some eyes cosmetic makeup as well as various bodily bluish tatoos elsewhere. It's the old way of WSL training in HK back then. Some of our lucky Gwailos called him Rambo, others Psycho, but all have high respect of his fighting skills. Ha! Ha!

Regards,

PH

[Nick Forrer]

My instructor told me that when he was learning in Hong Kong with WSL (1985-1990 I think) 'Mr Ko' would always make a point of chi sauing with him. For a long time Mr Ko used to batter him mercilessly and so my instructors goal was to get good enough to be able to handle him (note: not to be better then him). Because my instructor had done a lot of tae kwon do he tried to step back and kick him but he said that Mr Ko was so fast and so aggressive that as soon as he moved back Mr Ko was on him. The word that he most often uses to describe this feeling and approach to ving tsun is 'relentless'. Maybe that is the best one word description of the WSL method.

BTW apparently Mr Ko's favourite attack is to grab you around the throat and throttle you. My instructor showed me how he managed to counter this though;)

[rp]

Errr.. Sorry guys you got the wrong Ko.

Ko Kin in the short dude.

PsyKo is the tall dude.

[PaulH]

Good catch, RP! He is indeed very tall! I think John Smith once mentioned that he is also a barber in the New Territory, HK.

Regards,
PH

[David Jamieson]

guys, just wanna say this, I have recently begun learning Wing chun kungfu.

I like it. My background is seven years training in Southern Shaolin Black Tiger and Bak Sil Lum.

As for unity, I think I have that one :D you see, I am learning the empty hand sets from my training partner who is quite good. However, after Chum kiu, we looked at the book outlining Ip Man's delivery of the form and we found a couple of "extras" in it that we didn't have in our version.

we added them in and the fit right in like a right sized bolt on a vintage car.

I then sought the advice of a wing chun teacher I knew in another city. He sent me a clip of one of his students doing the form. A couple of more nuances we noticed. We spoke about them and again made an addition to the form from this material.

So, the Chum Kiu we have is drawn from three sources. The first a pretty well known HK WC sifu, the second the Lam Wing Kit publications that offer the Ip Man versions of the set and finally from the observation of another schools performance.

It flows nice and the form is still clean, simple and all about fighting techniques, no flash.

Anyway, I like the style it's good and I look forward to learning more from all the people who offer the lesson :D

cheers

p.s I am really totally unconcerned with lineage, if what it is is good, then that's all I need. What I mean by "good" is "works".

[glenn richards]

Hi All
Just a quick thanks to all who responded, its been very insightful.
Regards
Glenn

[old jong]

Originally posted by Kung Lek
guys, just wanna say this, I have recently begun learning Wing chun kungfu.

Well!...It's about times you start learning Gung Fu!...









































;) :D :D :D

[David Jamieson]

lol@OJ

one day, you'll pay for that, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not ever, but one day.... wait a minute :D

[old jong]

Hey KL
Welcome aboard!...:D

[sihing]

Since the WSL method has become a little more popular lately, I thought I would bring this thread back to life after a long absence... Some good stuff here guys.....Kudos to Ernie, Paul, Nick......

James