7 star praying mantis kicks

[Youngmantis]

Sup yall
I learned some kicks today in Kung fu most of them were low kicks, but i learned like 2 aerial ones, anyways I was wondering what are the kicks for 7 star praying mantis, like the basic kicks and some advance ones, because i want to practice some now but i only kno the few ones i was taught and i dont want to have to wait until kung fu class. Sooooo could someone post up a link on the different Mantis kicks or maybe post up with a short description. Thankz

[BeiTangLang]

???? You want someone to tell you how to do more over the internet?? Bad idea. Wait for your instructor to show you.
What aerial kicks did you learn?? what style of mantis are they from??
Best Wishes,
BTL

[fa_jing]

When I spoke to Sifu Kwan about the 3 basic Wing Chun kicks which are front, side, and oblique (foot turned out) he agreed that these are the 3 basic kicks in the Mantis system as well. Obviously there are alot of other kicks, but these are the basic ones.

Sifu Kwan is really secretive about his kicks - he once told us "I never let anyone see my kicks" This is the gentleman who grew up and trained in China.

In wing chun, too, we frown upon displaying certain applications of our kicks to the general public.

[Brithlor]

"In wing chun, too, we frown upon displaying certain applications of our kicks to the general public."


Just curious... but why is that..? The general public doesn't like seeing people getting kicked in the groin :eek: ?

[Tainan Mantis]

Mandarin Duck kick is the essential kick of PM.
In some schools they say door closing kick.
That, together with "to the wind kick" are variations of the mandarin duck kick.

There are some others. To my knowledge all PM schools share a common core of kicks, the above being the essential and most well known.
The others in some cases don't share the same names making it difficult to discuss.

In the case of WHF, he went into some detail of the kicks of his 7* PM.

Other schools preserved their kicks info in private manuscripts.
In all cases what we call kicks are called "feet" and "legs" in Chinese.

There are also some special kicks which are unique to the different schools.

Brithlor,
good application of a kick.
Don't have to fight once that one is applied to the groin.
I think it is not a secret though the training method definetly is in some schools.

Training the groin kick takes a special training so that the kicker doesn't have to pull the kick at the final moment.
So I can see why that would not be easily shared.

[Chinwoo-er]

I think if you know the form "Shilu-bengda" then you would have learnt a large portion of mantis kicks. That form is quite famous for the amount of kicks and bodily movements.
Considering most mantis forms does not stress so much on kicking, that form really is quite unique.

Personally, I find it to resemble a Mizong form. they probably got the ideas from there and added in mantis techniques to create this form

[Brithlor]

"Brithlor,
good application of a kick.
Don't have to fight once that one is applied to the groin.
I think it is not a secret though the training method definetly is in some schools.

Training the groin kick takes a special training so that the kicker doesn't have to pull the kick at the final moment.
So I can see why that would not be easily shared."

Well, I didn't mean holding back secret techinques... but most people see things like eye gouges and groin grab/pulls to be vulgar (as if any combat is pleasant) so most martial artists don't really showcase those moves when demonstrating to the public :).

Oh, one question if I may... what exactly is a "hook" kick??? Everyone talks about hook kicks in wing chun but (even though I do Wing chun) I have absolutely no idea what one is or looks like... can anyone clarify what exactly a hook kick is for me?

Thanks :).

[Tainan Mantis]

Chinwoo-er,
Interesting point about 4 road running strikes.
My shrfu learned it from a man who taught MiZhong Chuen.
Along with 3 Huyen/Tiger Swallow forms.

This master, Sun Long Zhai, classified all these forms as Mi Zhong Yi, not mantis.

Brithlor,
I suspect the hook kick you are talking about is where I hook my instep to the outside of the opponents ankle for a throw.

[Brithlor]

Hmm... I don't think that's it because I always hear about "hook kick to the head" or "a hook kick to the ribs".

I saw a video clip of what was supposedly a hook kick being preformed by Bruce Lee but it just looked like a roundhouse kick.

[Chinwoo-er]

TM

There is a huge debate about where this form is actually from. As one might have guessed, the Shaolin people claims it is from Mizong and the mantis people claims it is from mantis. It is not hard to see why it is of such controversy.
If you analyze the whole thing, you will find that the kicks and bodily movements are distinctly mizong-like. In addition, the fact that there are no other form are runs along this line enforces this argument. If for example, if someone from the past really did take some Mizong moves and added it into the mantis system, then we can more or less expect that there will be more than one form made. This is because one form simply is not enough to juice out the essence of something is complex as this. This is seconded by the fact that concepts like Fanche ( Turning wheel ) have two forms, Collected essence ( Tzayiao ) have two forms, Monkey steals peach (Bayuen-tautu) have two forms along with many others. Having just one form seems highly inconsistant with the pattern of the Mantis system. Hence, some people says that it is actually a mizong from which is just brought over to the mantis.

On the other side, many argues that the notion that this form coming directly from mizong is rediculous. Influenced, yes. Copied, impossible. If we look at the hand techniques of the Shilu-bengda, there are some areas which are distinctly mantis. It may not look like that at first. But when employed, the strategy is so much more consistant with mantis than Mizong. Fact is, as far as hand techniques are concerned, mantis are much more complex than mizong which relies on footwork, bodily movements and kicks. To say that a mizong form having these hand techniques is simply too far fetched (another hot area of this debat). Another argument is that if it was a mizong form, then why is it not passed on as one. Indeed, when look at Shilu-bengda, it is almost unheard of in the Mizong system. As opposed to things like Dazhanquan, Lianbuquan, etc. Hence, to say that it came directly from mizong cannot be correct.

Some have tried to make a link between Shilu-bengda with the Mizong Shiluquan. But I personally really don't see that strong a similarity. Hence, as far as I am concerned, this argument doesn't stand either.


But honestly, it is fun watching these debates. Makes training martial arts a whole lot more interesting.

[fa_jing]

No, it's because we don't want these applications to fall into the wrong hands. I know alot of our systems have been revealed to the public already but there are at least some things that we can still prevent or delay the general public from knowing.

BTW Hook kick = roundhouse kick, in this usage.

[ironmantis3]

I think when you are saying hook kick, in this instance it not a mantis type hook kick whereas to sweep a leg for example as stated, I believe it was in Tainan's post. But rather the hook kick utilized often by karate and TKD practitioners. Similar to a wheel kick but instead the knee bends at the moment before impact so as to hook around behind the attacker. Usually to hit ribs, kidneys, or behind the head. This is the hook kick which was often used by Bruce Lee after the Straight Blast 3 punch combo you see him do in the movies.

On a side note, I may be wrong as I have not been in the states for a while, but I believe the hook kick (mentioned above, not the PM version) and spinning hook kick have been banned from many TKD and karate tournaments. I remember a story a friend of mine (a former TKD competitor) once told me of a tourny where in the fight before his, a competitor had his eye knocked out of socket by the same spinning hook kick. I hear it can be fixed. Apparently it happened somewhat often and for this reason has been banned. But as I said it has been a while since I have been in the States as I now live in Japan so I could be wrong.

[Brithlor]

So the hook kick is kind of like a cross between a wheel and a roundhouse kick?

BTW, does mantis use SIDE kicks? Just curious... we use low side kicks in wing chun but my side kick is really poor... anyone know some mistakes that are often done when utilizing the side kick and how to prevent them?

[Mr.Binx]

Originally posted by Brithlor
BTW, does mantis use SIDE kicks? Just curious... we use low side kicks in wing chun but my side kick is really poor... anyone know some mistakes that are often done when utilizing the side kick and how to prevent them?

In seven star tanglang there seems to be a theme of sidekicks being used almost predominantly for closing distance, retreating strikes, leg suppression, and high-low combinations. It is almost always used with the cooperation from another limb that is performing a separate technique. My personal feel for a sidekick in seven star, thus far, is that of gaining a tactical advantage regardless of what damage is done to an opponent... so even if the kick fails to strike it's intended target you have the simultaneous ability to move yourself into advantage. Just one more step in tanglang towards learning to use one's body like a swiss army knife in order to play a game of reflexive martial chess. That's neat stuff.

[Tainan Mantis]

sc guy,

How do you relate "door closing kick" to "mandarin duck kick" and "mandarin duck kick while departing"?

[mantisben]

Originally posted by Tainan Mantis
...
"mandarin duck kick while departing"?
I've heard of the "Close-Door Kick" and the "Mandarin Duck Kick". Can you give an example of what 7* PM form contains the "Mandarin Duck Kick Departing"?

[Tainan Mantis]

Of the 18 Family sonnet number 14 says,
"Ling Chong's mandarin duck kick is strong."

This is that well known sonnet which finishes with,
"Wang Lang's Mantis defeats all rivals."

Bimen or close the door kick as well as;
-welcome the wind(ying feng)kick
-pecking the water(zhuo shuei-tough to translate this one)kick
are all subsumed under Mandarin Duck kick.
The difference residing in the hand method.

IMO, This method of complication doesn't make it any better than if you only say close the door kick and describe the hand method;
backfist,
double divide,
pluck the eye etc.

"While departing" or"before setting out" is an escaping jump done after the kick.
It is seen near the beginning of 1st Zhai Yao(as well as many other forms).
After the groin kick you jump back.

Many styles simply refer to it as door closing kick.
sc guy, I asked this question of you because there are differences of definition in all the mantis styles and I want to hear your take.

Any minute now my good friend Robert is going to jump in and say that Ling Chong is a figure from the Chinese martial epic Shui-hu-chuan.

In 1966 Harvard University Press published Richard Gregg Irwin's book,
TEH EVOLUTION OF A CHINESE NOVEL: SHUI-HU-CHUAN.
This book presents the information to support facts concerning the validity of the existance of people from this novel.

This is important for Mantis practitioners since the 18 family sonnet contains 2 people that were heroes in this epic novel.

So I am trying to find a copy of this book. Any leads would be appreciated.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by sc_guy
...
I'm still confuse about which one is the "mandarin duck kick" but I believe the name is not important. All kicks are set up by hands and all strikes are set up by kicks. It's the concept that is important not any invividaul combination.

The "Mandarin Duck Kick" is in the form Bung Bo (Stamping/Stomping/Banging Step). It is the 4th movement in the 3rd road of Bung Bo.

From a left-hand and left-foot forward in a Tiger-Riding stance posing the "Mantis Catches Cicada" posture (3rd movement), execute a left Tiao-Shou (Intercept Hand) and simultaneously throw a left toe-kick. Before your left-foot touches the ground, spring up and throw a right toe-kick while simultaneously shooting out a right-hand 2-finger strike to the eyes (Twin-Dragons Snatch pearls?), and pulling back your left-hand Mantis Claw to the left-side of your head.

I was taught to do this movement as left toe-kick then right toe-kick. But in other forms (Say Lo Bung Da), they have (what I would consider a variation of the Mandarin Duck Kick) a right heel-kick then left toe-kick.

[fa_jing]

Roundhouse kick to the legs is good if you have your opponent stumbling backward. Also, fake low and come up high can result in a knockout. Too risky for the street, but in the ring with opponent of similar strength you will have to take more risks to win.

[Tainan Mantis]

sc guy,
You have Su's book. That is a very hard one to come by.
Are you of that organization.?
In that book Su mentions several of his teachers but never mentions his Beng Bu teacher.
I have been trying to find this out, but can't. Do you know?

Even my Shrfu who is Su's shrdi, does not know.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by sc_guy
...
Are you sure it's a "right heel-kick then left toe-kick" not a "right toe-kick then left heel-kick"? At least it's done the 2nd way in the Long Fist system.
...
Now that you mention it, I'm not sure. In the 1st movement of the last "road" in the form Say Lo Bung Da, I was taught to throw a right "Shin-Kick". Also, in the first road of "Say Lo Bung Da", as I learned it, there is a right shin/knee toe-kick.

In all the PM forms I've learned, and that ain't alot, this is the only form where I throw a toe-kick to the shin. Once in the first road, and once in the last road. Usually, in the PM forms I learned, if I throw a kick to the shin/knee, it is usually a kick with the heel.

You may be right. I don't know for sure. The first kick in the last road may be a toe-kick. Finally, I'll have to see if springing off my left foot is easier from a right toe-kick, or a right heel-kick.

[voltex]

hook kicks are like sidekicks but you bring the leg back around from the knee. I find it good for sweeps and fakes.