What is YJKYM?

[Phenix]

What is YJKYM?

Is it a stance for solid stability thus rigidly clamping the knees...?
Is it a stance just to stand thus no need to bend knees?
Is it a more then shoulder wide stance standing without bending knees?

What is YJKYM? what is it for?

[planetwc]

It is a stance used for

1. Development of stability, training of muscles around the kneecap to be used jointly with elbow energy. Kneecap + Elbow energy used together.

2. Utilization in Close Quarters Combat

3. Development and utilization of energy from the ground

4. Development of skill when compression of structure followed by linear projection of energy (or force) is needed.

5. A "neutral" stance from which one can transition to any of the other Wing Chun footwork (displacement Chum Kiu footwork, Biu Jee footwork, MYJ footwork, etc.)

6. Development of "virtual" lower center of gravity.

7. A "platform" of grounding or root from which to deliver power into your opponent.

[reneritchie]

It is essentially a tube, like a toothpaste tube, through which a substance (in this case power, not sparkling minty paste) can be squeezed more explosively than if you just left it lying in a small puddle.

It was specific requirements in order for a beginner to optimize the explosiveness of the tube squeeze. Experts can do almost anything and make it work, however, as the process becomes internalized and less and less externally visible over time.

[taltos]

It is, like everything in WC, a concept.

It's a package deal of many principles and theories that you must understand and express in order to have proper root, stability, and mobility.

Different lineages have different ways of expressing the YJKYM because they have different principles and concepts tacked onto it.

-Levi

[Ernie]

it's a feeling ,
or better yet a process to get in touch with that '' feeling ''

[old jong]

It is the first thing I was taught in Wing Chun and it is always the first thing I teach to a new student,even if he has years of experience in the system.

[anerlich]

A 5 letter acronym.

[PaulH]

The Chinese letter of it is a pictogram of a trapezoid of a wide base at the bottom side and a narrow top side. It suggests the notion of harnessing the bottom energy for a narrower or concentrated top use. The structure also is stable and mobile if the base is not too wide. Human body is divided into two equal parts from such stance - the left and right side. Also there is a not so apparent split of equal upper or lower body in it. Any individual adjustments on the stance will thus affecting your center or mass center location accordingly.

Regards,

PH

[Phenix]

OK,

another one....

is YJKYM a solid rigid based
or
is YJKYM a mobile fluid platform


if it is solid and rigid then it is always stable thus how is one using it to issue energy for something which is clamping to ground.

If it is mobile and fluid then it is always fluid thus how is one using it as center to judge the gate lines......

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Phenix
OK,

another one....

is YJKYM a solid rigid based
or
is YJKYM a mobile fluid platform


if it is solid and rigid then it is always stable thus how is one using it to issue energy for something which is clamping to ground.

If it is mobile and fluid then it is always fluid thus how is one using it as center to judge the gate lines......

The YJKYM has a solid base on top of a mobile fluid platform. It's like an Eiffel Tower riding on "rollers".

When you stand in YJKYM, your structure is like that of an Eiffel tower which is a pyramid. The pyramid is one of the most stable of structures. The Eiffel Tower has stood for more than a hundred years; while the pyramids of Egypt has stood for thousands of years. That only shows how stable the structure is!

Like modern buildings of today, standing in YJKYM is like standing on "rollers". Modern buildings stand on "rollers" in order to counter the destructive effects of an earthquake.

[planetwc]

More fluid than rigid.
It is what it is, and as much of it is used as is needed at the time.

Judging "gate lines" if I guess at what you mean is contextual and in the moment. Fighting and your opponent are not fixed things. Your opponent is not a robot and can do different things.

Those with high skill in sensitivity utilize their own sense of centerline to understand their relationship to everything around them. They have also ingrained in themselves the skill to do the micro adjustments necessary to have optimum position at a particular point in time.

That said, the rest of us much further behind on the WC path, may have more "ridgity" to lose in their stance and their shoulders. Our sensitivity is more tuned to grosser motor movements in our opponents and less sophistication in our "listening skills".

The gates are still there, they are a conceptual framework to work with along with the dictionary of hands from SLT, Chum Kiu and Bil Jee.

Personally I KNOW I have much more to do to optimize and relax my YJKYM especially in the hips, thighs and hamstrings.

Originally posted by Phenix
OK,

another one....

is YJKYM a solid rigid based
or
is YJKYM a mobile fluid platform


if it is solid and rigid then it is always stable thus how is one using it to issue energy for something which is clamping to ground.

If it is mobile and fluid then it is always fluid thus how is one using it as center to judge the gate lines......

[Phenix]

Great!


Ok. Now lets get into issueing energy.

How do you do it in YJKYM? with your platform or based you think is proper?



Since we are getting into details.. very technical details....

May be we need to be serious now and take this KFO date mark serve as the proof of your idea.

I am always concern people take the idea write an article or book and then claim it is thier. I always belive in giving credit to where it is from. not taking it and re package it and then claim I have it too or mine is better.

IMHO, we can learn from others but lets give credits and appreciation is very important.

[Phenix]

Wingman,

what if your pyramid become your limitation. pyramid is stable but the Stable index is so high that it lock the upper deck rigid and become non elastic?

beside how do you implement the rollers under the pyramid? with heel? or ball of feet? or side of feet? or K1 points?

I am just think out loud here.


one of my model will be a big Hanging Bell where inside has the hammer or weight for cg control issuing power ect.....
But those are just one model.


anerlich,

how do you see it?

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Phenix
Wingman,

what if your pyramid become your limitation. pyramid is stable but the Stable index is so high that it lock the upper deck rigid and become non elastic?

Off course, they are rigid because the Eiffel tower is made of steel; while the pyramids of Egypt are made of stone. But that's beside the point. I only mentioned them as an example on how strong and stable the structure is. Of course you can't have the perfect analogy.

The pyramid structure is not a limitation to mobility. The center of gravity of a pyramid is 1/3 of its height from the base. For example, a 30 m. pyramid has a center of gravity 10 m. from its base. Meanwhile, a 30 m. cube has a center of gravity 15 m. from its base.

If the pyramid is YJKYM and the cube is a square stance of other martial arts, then you can have a higher stance on YJKYM while still maintaining a low center of gravity. You are more mobile if you are in a higher stance. Therefore YJKYM allows you to be both mobile and stable.


beside how do you implement the rollers under the pyramid? with heel? or ball of feet? or side of feet? or K1 points?

Most modern buildings have rollers underneath to protect it from earthquakes. I don't know how they do it. If they can put rollers on modern buildings, I guess it's not impossible to put it under the Eiffel tower and the pyramids.

Some WC styles use the heel; while others use the ball of feet. Use what's best for you.

[Brithlor]

"Some WC styles use the heel; while others use the ball of feet. Use what's best for you."

Is that in STEPPING or TURINING? Just curious since I'm taught to completely pick up my feet when I turn... neither on the heel or the ball.

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Brithlor
"Some WC styles use the heel; while others use the ball of feet. Use what's best for you."

Is that in STEPPING or TURINING? Just curious since I'm taught to completely pick up my feet when I turn... neither on the heel or the ball.

I can't speak for the other WC styles. In the WC that I practice, we step by completely picking up the feet. We don't drag the hind leg when stepping. As for turning, we use either the heel or ball of the feet, depending on the situation.

You mentioned that, "I'm taught to completely pick up my feet when I turn". Do you mean step & turn? I was also taught to step & turn when I was still new in WC. But as I became more adept, I can do away with the stepping & just turn.

[Phenix]

OK,

what actually happen differently between using the heel, or ball of feet, or step and turn?

what different it makes to the YJKYM?

[Toby]

My 1st WC reply! :D

Only since I can do so without getting involved in politics. ;)

The heel is vertically underneath the lower leg, so you can pivot without shifting weight. Pivoting on the ball means you have to lift your weight off the heel, make the turn, then settle again -> more movement, slower turn. Stepping? Well, I'd say only step as much (or as little) as necessary to either evade an attack or attack the opponent's centre. We pivot on the heel or if stepping, step, then pivot on the heel. Although we've done exercises pivoting on the ball as well. Whatever the situation calls for.

How'd I do? :p

[FIRE HAWK]

The Stance is used to sit and meditate.

[reneritchie]

Firehawk - sink and meditate, float and mediate? Stand in the place where we aren't?

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Interesting topic!


I think YJKYM and our alignment is a vehicle that teaches us how to recieve and issue force from any direction. The ground supports our structure but its not something that we strive to lock into the ground. Our opponents force can help support/ground us more or help us move accordingly and relaxing the breath/body while having good Yi can make your root strong without having to bolt yourself down hard and dead.

The inside/skeleton is stretched and aligned so that the joints and body is flexible and fluid. Not locked down and dead. There are ways to use your Waist/Spine/Chest to maximize your issue/recieving ways.

*****

"Some WC styles use the heel; while others use the ball of feet. Use what's best for you."

Really?

And how do you know what is best for you? Is it because you think it feels more comfortable or because its a bit easier to do early on etc.? I think one thing we should do is look back at all the different lineages and list who does what to find common ground. That is one way to see what is more likely what our ancestors and founders taught! You can also look at other arts that seem to be our root (like White Crane) and see where they connect! From what I have read it seems to be the K1!

Typically, the Bai He point on the top of the head and the K1 should be on the same line!

We, Leung Jan Koo Lo teaching, utilize the K1! I know Yuen Kay San WC uses the K1. What about Yik Kam? Hendrik?

*****

Pivoting on the ball means you have to lift your weight off the heel, make the turn, then settle again -> more movement, slower turn.

Totally disagree! Pivoting on the heel mean the moment you shift you will lose one side of your YJKYM properties! Plus, it also has other disadvantages IMO.

A story from Leung Jan;

When Leung Jan was teaching Wong Wah Sam in Koo Lo how to shift he used this example! Leung sifu first showed him how to shift on the heels and then held out a fan he as carrying. Leung sifu then held the fan out in front of Wong Sam and asked him to hit it. Wong Sam tried and was not successfull. Leung sifu then explained to him how to shift on the K1 point. He then held the fan out again and asked Wong Sam to hit the fan. Wong Sam did! Leung sifu went on to explain to Wong Sam that shifting on the heels stunts ones distance while striking and was not the way he taught!

This was the first time I ever released this story. I am sure some people will not appreciate and some might. Some may say; Nobody was there so maybe someone made it up etc.. Believe it or not, there is no denying that one fact that was stated in that story.

Enjoy!


Regards,
Jim

[Phenix]

Toby


It doesnt has to be politic at all. Technical is the key. So, let's keep Technical.



Jim


Great post and Great Infor. Appreciate your history and hope that all give credit to you and your lineage of preserving them.


K1, Ball, and heel, all has thier purpose for Yik Kam. For turning, K1 area.



"The ground supports our structure but its not something that we strive to lock into the ground. Our opponents force can help support/ground us more or help us move accordingly and relaxing the breath/body while having good Yi can make your root strong without having to bolt yourself down hard and dead.

The inside/skeleton is stretched and aligned so that the joints and body is flexible and fluid. Not locked down and dead. There are ways to use your Waist/Spine/Chest to maximize your issue/recieving ways."

Great!

and the breathing has to be able to switch between reverse and forward.

Mind has to be in the "silence". Not any type of formula because that will get one stuck. LOOK but not Think.


I am going to get into details.... I am sure some people will not appreciate and some might. some might even try to high jack me.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by FIRE HAWK
The Stance is used to sit and meditate.


What is a meditation? Please define to details what you think.

[Phenix]

OK

Now, how to link the whole body up from toes to head?

[jonp]

im with ernie

its a training tool that trains a feeling. as well as conditioning the body.

IMO if you training with weight on the heels then you aint gettin the most from your YJKM, you lose a spring in the ankle joint and the arch of the foot. this is what works for me anyway.

[jonp]

took too long with reply - some new interesting posts!


k1 all the way baby

[Wingman]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
"Some WC styles use the heel; while others use the ball of feet. Use what's best for you."

Really?

And how do you know what is best for you? Is it because you think it feels more comfortable or because its a bit easier to do early on etc.?

You know what's best for you by constant experimentation during practice & chi sao. I was taught to use the heel, ball of the feet, & step & turn (using ball of the feet). In my previous post, I mentioned that I was taught the step & turn. After a few years of WC practice, I can just turn; when a few years ago, I need to step & turn in the same given situation.

You might be taught this & that. But it is up to you to refine your movements to suit your needs.

BTW, what is K1? & where is it located?

I know K2 is a mountain. I thought K1 is a kickboxing tournament.:D

[Toby]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
"Pivoting on the ball means you have to lift your weight off the heel, make the turn, then settle again -> more movement, slower turn."

Totally disagree! Pivoting on the heel mean the moment you shift you will lose one side of your YJKYM properties! Plus, it also has other disadvantages IMO.

So I didn't do too well :p

How do you lose your YJKYM properties? What properties specifically? The final position after pivoting is (almost the) same regardless of heel or ball, isn't it? Difference being the ball pivot gives extra distance. I still stand by pivoting on the heel being faster. Surely you agree that mechanically speaking you have to perform more and slower movement pivoting on the ball? BTW, what other disadvantages?


Originally posted by Jim Roselando
When Leung Jan was teaching Wong Wah Sam in Koo Lo how to shift he used this example! Leung sifu first showed him how to shift on the heels and then held out a fan he as carrying. Leung sifu then held the fan out in front of Wong Sam and asked him to hit it. Wong Sam tried and was not successfull. Leung sifu then explained to him how to shift on the K1 point. He then held the fan out again and asked Wong Sam to hit the fan. Wong Sam did! Leung sifu went on to explain to Wong Sam that shifting on the heels stunts ones distance while striking and was not the way he taught!

This is the case where we learnt the benefit of the ball pivot - extra distance. Nice story.

Like Wingman, I don't know the (dim mak? acupressure?) points, so I'd appreciate knowing what K1 is too.

[anerlich]

K1

http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=KI1&meridian=Kidney

[Brithlor]

LOL, I'm glad I wasn't the only one confused about this K1 stuff...

In the wing chun I'm doing we NEVER turn our feet in any direction without first lifting them off the ground (there might be a few instances contrary to this... but I haven't seen any). When I first start wing chun I used the shifting I was used to in my first martial art (san soo), where I shift in between the ball of the foot and the heel but was specifically told NOT to do that...

I'm curious why the differences in shifting though...It seems like shifting ON the feet might give better balance since you still ahve 50/50 weight distribution but when you lift your feet you have to put all your weigth on the other foot for a second... But shifting on the heel seems like it would cause you to be put off balance quickly if you were pushed backwards... because if you shift on the ball of the foot you can kind of rock backwards onto your heels... but if you're already on your heels you can only step backwards to regain balance.

[Brithlor]

"K1

http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictur...meridian=Kidney"


That looks like the ball of the foot... besides; isn't Kl1 differen't than just k1?

[Wingman]

Originally posted by anerlich
K1

http://www.acuxo.com/meridianPictures.asp?point=KI1&meridian=Kidney

Looks like K1 is somewhere in the area of the ball of the feet.

[anerlich]

besides; isn't Kl1 differen't than just k1?

Except for the slash in the middle, exactly how would that be?

It's the first point on the kidney meridian, however abbreviated and whatever the different version might mean.

Learning some basic TCM theory is a worthwhile exercise. I even have a link to some info in my .sig. Don't dim mak anyone without it.


Looks like K1 is somewhere in the area of the ball of the feet.

That looks like the ball of the foot...
Wow! Some major deductive powers on this forum. :D

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phenix
OK

Now, how to link the whole body up from toes to head?

May be from BL1 (Jing-Ming) all the way down to BL67 (Zhi-Yin), make a inward turn, flow towards K1 then up KL24 ......

The meridians are quite a design I must say....

[Brithlor]

I'm glad you're impressed with my power :cool: .

Seriously though, everyone was either saying they turn on the balls of their feet or the heels. Then all of a sudden people are saying they're turning on their K1s... If it is the same as the heels they might as well have just said so :).

Just curious, but who here doesn't turn on their feet at all but lift them when they turn?

[Jim Roselando]

Hey guys!


Sorry I dont have time to answer more of these posts. I am leaving for vacation but I can hit this one and any more next week when I get back!


So I didn't do too well

Not true.

How do you lose your YJKYM properties? What properties specifically? The final position after pivoting is (almost the) same regardless of heel or ball, isn't it?

Nope! When in YJKYM we have the toes slightly in. Once you shift on the heel you end up with the feet being parallel. You lose one side of the YJKYM and can never attain any Ding Jee property.

Difference being the ball pivot gives extra distance. I still stand by pivoting on the heel being faster. Surely you agree that mechanically speaking you have to perform more and slower movement pivoting on the ball? BTW, what other disadvantages?

Speed of turning has nothing to do with ball or heel. It has to do with practice and quick hip torquing. I have seen people shift quickly with both methods. When the feet are parallel there is an open line sweeping upward towards the groin. Also, if your weight is on the heel mainly, which it has to be for shifting on the heel, then if someone pressed on your birdige you have no back up support. When the weight turns more towards the K1 you can absorb a bit more into the heel if need be. If your weight is shifting on the heel then when you step you need to press off the K1 or ball of the foot as that is where anyone regardless of lineage has to press off from. So, there would probally need to be a slight weight transfering to the K1 or ball to step which slows the process down but if you were already on that point you can just dart without transfer. Etc. etc..

I did both methods. I did the heel shift for about 5 years and these were some of the disadvantages I have found thru my own training.

Another thing to think about is this!

We now for sure that Wong Wah Bo had 2 pupils. Leung Jan and Fok Bo Chuen. Leung Jan taught in Koo Lo to shift on K1 and not the heel. Fok Bo Chuen's lineage also does the same so we can pretty much say that it is more likely that K1 is the standard spot from his lineage. We can then add in Hendrik's Yik Kam info. which is a total seperate lineage from the Red Boat and see that he also uses the K1 point for shifting. Thats three seperate sources and for me it shows a definete link to the way it was done and taught back then. So, if a few of Leung Jan great grandstudents lineages shift on the heels we may want to find out when this method came to be. We know Pan Nam doesnt heel shift and a fair number (most) of YMWC does. Could it be something from Ng Chung So or maybe Chan Wah??? Why would there be variations when most stem from Leung Jan (that shift on heels mainly) and we know he was against it as well was his teacher and classmates. Who was the source of this method? Things that make you go hmmmm?

BTW: I have seen good and bad practitioners with both methods. Train anything hard enough and you can become skilled but since this topic came up I think we can do our best to figure out the roots of the art and how/when/where different methods were born from. Adios!


I have to run!


See ya,

[hunt1]

Some observations.

Jim my first Yip Man teachers wing chun came via jiu wan and moy yat. he taught me to ****(wonder what my mispelling was) shift on k1. My second Yip Man teacher had wing chun from Yip Chun and Yip Ching . He taught k1. I think your statement that most Yip Man students shift on the heel is not accurate. There are simple reasons why some students shift on the heel and some on the ball. Nothing to make me go 'Hmmmmm'.

Proper shifting comes from the Hip not the feet. The heel shift is not correct. Its weakness can be shown easily. Even Leung Ting recognized the weakness and modified his shifting to one foot at a time in an attempt to cover the structural weakness of the heel shift.
A way to visualize K1 shift is to keep the whole foot flat on the ground and attempt to screw yourself into the ground as you shift. I have found this visualizatin helps some people.
Shifting on the ball of the foot also has obvious problems..

[Jim Roselando]

Quick hello as I am out the door!


Some observations.

Jim my first Yip Man teachers wing chun came via jiu wan and moy yat. he taught me to ****(wonder what my mispelling was) shift on k1. My second Yip Man teacher had wing chun from Yip Chun and Yip Ching . He taught k1.

This is interesting. I met Jiu Wan guys and when shifting the ball of the foot was swinging more. They placed their weight more towards the heel. If you watch Yip Chun on video you can see the ball of his foot also swinging which means its more towards the heel. My friend who trains Yip Ching lineage in Florida also was taught to shift on the heel. Perhaps there are more then one way being shown.

I think your statement that most Yip Man students shift on the heel is not accurate.

Really? Hmmm! Lets see. Wong Shun Leung people, Leung Shung people, A. Fong people, Lee Shing people, Moy Yat people, etc. etc. Now! Some YM lineage that I have seen that doesn't shift on the heel! Wang Kiu people, Leung Ting people, etc.. This was all based on what I have seen with my own eyes from practitioners of those lineages.

There are simple reasons why some students shift on the heel and some on the ball. Nothing to make me go 'Hmmmmm'.

Really again? You dont think its kind of strange or interesting that Leung Jan/Yuen Kay San/Yik Kam etc all preserve the same shift but somewhere along the line the heel shift was introduced? Even watching Yip Man on video we can see him shifting on the heels so I do think this topic makes me go HMMMM!

Proper shifting comes from the Hip not the feet. The heel shift is not correct. Its weakness can be shown easily. Even Leung Ting recognized the weakness and modified his shifting to one foot at a time in an attempt to cover the structural weakness of the heel shift.
A way to visualize K1 shift is to keep the whole foot flat on the ground and attempt to screw yourself into the ground as you shift. I have found this visualizatin helps some people.
Shifting on the ball of the foot also has obvious problems..

I agree with this paragraph!

You can see I agree as I wrote;

Speed of turning has nothing to do with ball or heel. It has to do with practice and quick hip torquing.

I have to run!


Thanks for the chat!


See ya,

[yuanfen]

FWIW-to each his own. IMO---no history or scientism here--

1.The heel is the mechanical swivel point of my turns. But I do not rock back or forward to turn. The rest of my foot controls the ground pretty well. I sacrifice neither mobility or stability... and I can do it with (the commoncatchword) resisiting opponents. So can my brothers and sisters.

2. The heel emphasis turn is not an easy one to learn- it involves an understanding of other alignments as well.

3. I do not particularly emphasize the hips- the whole body turns
without throwing off the axis.

4. I am not convinced -Jim's informants not withstanding that Leung Jan exclusively taught the K1 turn.

5. Both knees turn together(like the front wheels of a car)
- hence turning on a dime. Ki and ball are more forward and can be done- more power to those who do
and are satisfied with it. K1 turners are partly using the bulge of the ball. Ki is bit depressed between heel and ball.... protects the point there.

6. The meridian paths and the optimum bone alignments to work with gravitational forces are not one and the same. External and internal alignments have to work in harmony but again, they are not one and the same.

7 This issue is a recurring one in wc.

8. Different folks- different strokes. Its Ok.
Cheers.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi All,

FWIW, I've always been taught to turn on the whole foot (I'm from the Leung Sheung line). If you take the average center of the surface area of the foot, it's somewhere near the K1 point, but I try not to worry about that. For me personally (and this will not be true for everyone), I am less stable (relatively speaking) when I turn on either the ball or the heel.

Maybe our "natural" weight distribution might have an affect on our preference. I surmise that if you gravitate towards the 10/90 weight distribution, as we do, then turning on your heel might be a little more unstable than if you were using a 50/50 weight distribution. This is because most of your weight is already on one leg, and shifting your center of gravity any ****her back by turning on your heel would put you more at risk to be tipped over. Of course, this is PURE conjecture on my part. Please don't take it seriously.

Regards,
Alan

[old jong]

IMO, years of SLT and Chum Kiu practice will teach good weight distribution in turning or whatever.This is more than a theorical subject but a practical thing that has to be lived by itself.
I personnaly don't turn on any special part of my feet.Even if I use the heel as base for my turns,I don't feel that my weight is on my heels at all.It feels more like the whole foot is in action. The whole body is also used not emphasing the hips.It just comes with times and practice.;)

[yuanfen]

The CONTEXT of the turns in my post is purely the chum kiu.
Once the chum kiu turn is properly learned among folks I know--
one can apply in a variety of ways--- training and adjusting
to what is out there are different things... adjusting to a connection with an opponent, adjusting to weapons in your hand, adjusting for short distances and long distances.
Once the basic slt and ck peinciples are internalized- operational uasages will be many.
You may have to turn on your wrist if you are off the ground-hanging from a rope and being Sinbad the sailor...look ma no heels or balls or ki
s.

[yuanfen]

Old Jong- Surprise!-the same holds for me.:-

[Nick Forrer]

FWIW

I turn the same way as Yuanfen describes as does my instructor as do all my classmates.

If you turn on the balls of your feet you are shifting yourself away from your opponents centre of gravity. This is easy to demonstrate. Have someone place their palm in front of you and then place your fist on it in the manner of a fully extended punch. Turn on the balls of your feet and your fist will move away from it.
Turn on your hells and you will move further towards it (albeit fractionally).

That said while the heels are emphasised as the pivot point to beginners when learning to turn, obviously the weight is not rocked all the way back on to them (the heels that is) as the person turning will then be unstable and easy to unbalance.

Conversly, if the toes are not picked up at all when truning and one remains entirely flat footed there will be too much traction with the ground to be able to turn quickly and sharply.

I agree that the place to develop and perfect good turning is the first section of chum kiu when you have both your arms parallell and in front of you. You should ultimately be able to come to a dead stop no matter how much torque you are generating with your waist.

Sorry if im preaching to the choir.

regards Nick

[old jong]

Hello Nick!
You are welcome around here and I think you bring good discussions to the forum.
I'm sure that your level of civility matches your Wing Chun.
;)

[Phenix]

Great discussion!


So how is the K1 or heel affact the body?
May be we want to proceed to discuss into the big picture of how the body stucture influence ?

[teazer]

Originally posted by Jim Roselando
Even watching Yip Man on video we can see him shifting on the heels

If I remember rightly, from repeated watching of the video some time back, there are times while he shifts that just the toes are moving (so we can assume heel shift), and bits where both heels & toes are moving (which would be somewhere furrther along the foot).
IMO there's a time and a place for everything, so long as you know why you're doing it.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello all,


Back from a snowy mini vacation! Mother nature is kicking some butt up in the northeast.


If you turn on the balls of your feet you are shifting yourself away from your opponents centre of gravity.

Turn on your heels and you will move further towards it (albeit fractionally).


Certainly there is some truth to this. The main point of this is it does change the line of attack when tranfering the weight during a shift but even tho the line have been changed the striking distance is greater but the angle is different. I am not going to beat this topic up again. Its been discussed way too many times and some like it and some dont.

What we do know for sure is;

Wong Wah Bo-LJ-Chan Wah Shun-Futshan (Some K1/Some Heel)
Wong Wah Bo-Leung Jan-Koo Lo village (K1)
Wong Wah Bo-Fok Bo Chuen-Yuen Kay San (K1)
Yik Kam-Cho family-(K1)

We also know that White Crane (K1) "one of our mother arts" and so does most Internal Chinese Martial Art.


I am also reading that many state they shift on the whole foot which I have seen a couple of guys do but most dont even tho they state they do. The fact is either the ball of the foot is swinging more or the heel is. Those who do not use the K1 usually swing the ball more which means its more of a heel shift.

The only YMWC I have seen that uses the whole foot rather than the heel (even tho some from other lineage say they do) is Wang Kiu and Leung Ting.


I have to run!


See ya,

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Hendrik!


Great discussion!

I agree.


So how is the K1 or heel affact the body?
May be we want to proceed to discuss into the big picture of how the body stucture influence ?


Well, I am not so sure if this is what you want to discuss but I find that when I was heel shifting I was not able to make use of a powerfull Aat Yiu and power transfer. Also, most of my sending and recieving power was off a bit do the the bodies structural line not falling onto that spot. Once I spent the right ammount of time with the K1 I was able to send/recieve from the main pressing point of the foot that we use for any other method in life. Like walking/running etc..

When we run or just take off we always press from the K1 area. When landing from a jump or just a simple hop do we land on the heel or the K1? Do sprinters press off from the heel or the K1?

I would also say that the BH and K1 need to be on the same line because it sets up your skeleton so that it can naturally support itself and that is the only way I was able to get the feeling of letting the body relax to the point it feels like the muscle/skin hangs off the skeleton. Cool feeling. I just wish I could feel it more often! hehehe

I look forward to other input and adding more to this topic as it grows! Time to go shovel some more!


See ya,

[Jim Roselando]

Quickly!


See attachment!


Cheers!

[yuanfen]

To each his own on the turning issue. If one has been exposed to regular instruction and not just theorizing- the whole body can/should turn as a unit - since the main lower leg bone is directly over the heel-the heel can playa dominant (but not the only)role in standing and moving. Many teachers have not spent quality time
in correcting posture and structure and all kind of individual inferences can result.
I have had no power problem including short power with the heel based turns. The heels dont initiate the motion any way.

BTW- if we look at the bottom of our shoes---for most---the main wearing point is at the heel---then next is the horizontal line accross the middle of the ball. In all the time I have spent in shoe repair shops-the K1 spot is much less worn out on soles than the heel or the ball.Once the mind understands the unification of the body in standing and turning---all kinds of variations and adjustments in specific situations can occur because the mind has learned the control of the body as a unit...for wing chun motions.
Variations in application depends on circumstances IMO. For sprinting the ball of the foot plays a different role. For walking
past piles of dog poo you are up more towards the toes. For some adjustments in weapon usage the cat stance becomes relevant with the front heel off the floor.

Not just in wing chun --but in Chen taiji- in buddha's attendant pounds mortar-an important developmental movement- you come down on the heel for the unification of the body.

I fully understand that not everyone is comfortable with the
emphasis on the heel. Again- to each his own.

[KenWingJitsu]

And make sure to touch tip of tongue to roof of mouth when you turn.

And squeeze your shpincter.

And contract your little toe......

[yuanfen]

People do that?
Wonder of wonders.
So little time and so much to know.

[hunt1]

Jim you hit it on the head more than 1 method was taught. Even today I know for a fact that many keep things to themselves and do not share with even their best students. Have a couple of funny stories about that very thing.
As related to me Yip taught heel to those who had trouble getting the whole foot shift. Not a surprise since shifting always seems to be a problem for new students. Since YM really ddint spend much time correcting most of his students this just became the way. I have yet to see any 2 YM students do the entire system the same( course havent seen them all). Shifting methods just seem to fit into this.

[yuanfen]

Hunt1- "cudda" been the other way around-depends on who you talk to and IM isnt talking. Relative beginners can have problems with all kinds of turns- some with any turn.

[hunt1]

Yuanfen- 100% correct which is why I teach both methods and let my students learn the strengths and weaknesses for themselves.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Hunt1,


Jim you hit it on the head more than 1 method was taught.

Well, from looking at the known info. it seems to be that the heel shift was a later introduced method. It seems to have come either from Chan Wah generation or later. Since then we can more likely say both were taught.

Even today I know for a fact that many keep things to themselves and do not share with even their best students. Have a couple of funny stories about that very thing.

100% true.

As related to me Yip taught heel to those who had trouble getting the whole foot shift.

Could be but for the most part he was heel shifting and so does most of his seniors etc.. I find this a bit hard to believe but that does not mean it isn't true.

Not a surprise since shifting always seems to be a problem for new students. Since YM really ddint spend much time correcting most of his students this just became the way.

We should also look at some other lineages from Chan Wah/Leung Jan to see which ones K1 or Heel shift. I would like to know when this way of turning came to be.

I have yet to see any 2 YM students do the entire system the same( course havent seen them all). Shifting methods just seem to fit into this.

Seems to be the case.

Anyone going to address Hendrik's question?

"So how is the K1 or heel affact the body?
May be we want to proceed to discuss into the big picture of how the body stucture influence?"


Thanks for the chat!


See ya,

[troy fuller]

FWIW, we are taught heel shifting for small pivots, ball of foot shifting for medium pivots, and step shifting for larger motions.

[yuanfen]

As related to me Yip taught heel to those who had trouble getting the whole foot shift. (Hunt1)

Could be but for the most part he was heel shifting and so does most of his seniors etc.. I find this a bit hard to believe but that does not mean it isn't true. (JimR)

((Jim is correct on this IMO-those who really and regularly learn from him-he apparently basically advised a bit or left them alone to do their thing-actually I do not fault him for this--- in general education there are A students, B students Cs, failures drop outs,
crashers who dont enroll- so IM had is ABCDF dropouts audits and the rest)Joy



We should also look at some other lineages from Chan Wah/Leung Jan to see which ones K1 or Heel shift. (Jim R)

((Why?))

I would like to know when this way of turning came to be.

((Oops- history again...I duck on many or tolerate historical ambiguities. We have lots of discussions on "history" in different threads. Sir Robert Filmer (15th/16thcentrury) figure "proved"
to his and many contemporaries' satisfaction that Eurpean monarchs directly were descended from Adam<g>- the basis of the divine right of king's theory-remnants of which remain in the UK king's authirty over the church and in appointing the Archbishop of Canterbury. Howzat for lineage?
BTW the emphasis on the heel does not contradict the fact that the heel is an integral part of the whole foot. And again once learned one can move any way they please-same as cursive and then on to writing))Joy