Is there a destination?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Reading some of the other posts, it occurs to me that there may be a question of "finishing" a form or style... Do we ever avtually finish learning a style? When is it appropriate to say "i've learned that style"... When is it appropriate to learn other styles?

To be sure, i don't know! i can only follow my instincts, if i sense that another style may complement my journey i at least taste it and judge its benefit.. Currently, my plate "runneth over" with Yang, Chen and Qigong.. i see no other arts that can significantly improve on the benefits i can obtain right where i am (besides, at my age it seems wise to focus on what i have in front of me)..

I appreciate the opinions and experiences of others, thanks for considering this issue..

Be well...

[Kaitain(UK)]

Hey Bob :)

I think it's a bit of a broad question you pose - but I'll have a go at it

I don't believe you can ever 'finish' a form or kata or style - you can learn the shape, and then you can learn the applications, and then you work on the shape again once you understand the energy within it, and it goes on and on like that. I can't even envision a point where I could say I didn't need to improve the form any more - I think I will always be driven to keep developing and training it.

As for training other styles, for me that comes down to what is in those styles that I don't already have. In my class there is no training of groundwork, so for me there is no groundwork in Taiji. I wanted to see what all the fuss was about so I started BJJ - I enjoy training it immensely and it develops my martial art skills in a new direction. But it isn't Taiji - I could stop BJJ tomorrow and not need to roll again; sure I'd miss it, but I don't _need_ to train it. Taiji on the other hand is a part of me - if I don't train for any length of time I start changing as a person, grow more tense and my breath rises to my chest - I'd say it had a debilitating effect on me.

Paul

[Repulsive Monkey]

Nothing ends. No one really reaches total Mastery of a style. You read an interviews on Masters and they will tell you that they are constantly finding new things and refinements in their art. No one has ever completed style EVER, they've just walked away from a job unfinished!

[Syd]

By the way I just want to say from the outset that I have been a FALL fan since year dot...

"Take another lover, take an older lobster, should you get tired of her!"

Onto the question...

Exactly fella's... I am currently studying Mien Chuan (Old Yang small frame for Combat), Yang Cheng Fu 108 1st variation (For healing) and I'm just beginning an ancient art which pre-dates Liu He Ba Fa called Wun Yuen Yut Hei Jeung.

I can't imagine ever needing anything other than these arts above. Mind you Taijiquan does have it's own groundfighting and Shoui Jiao as well as Chin Na. If your a Taiji fighter you are essentially a stang up grappler. The idea of Taiji is to know *your* art so well that you never go to ground.

You never get done with any art...

[Repulsive Monkey]

You have got to be the only person on here that has mentioned the fall mate. Let me shake you by the hand!

[Syd]

I knew there was something more to you Repulsive, other than that witty **** taking name of yours...;)

I have pretty much everything the Fall ever did and was actually put onto them by a couple of Manchester girls who were on Holiday in OZ back in 1988.

I can't tell you the hours of fun I've had laughing at Mark E Smiths ascerbic tongue. One of the greats is where you can hear him cracking up at his own stupid humour. It's a song called "British People in Hot Weather". If you listen carefully it's when he say's "Armpit hair, serpentine grrrrrrowwwwlllll" You can hear him snicker.

Apparently he's a complete ******* though and you'd never have him as anything but a human dart board if you knew him personally! *L*

*Reciprocates hand shake*

Best to ya for having good taste!

[RAF]

442 Glenwood Avenue, 442 Glenwood Avenue . . .

Seriously, this summer I spent some time in Beijing and got a chance to see two really old guys playing in (Jing Shan and Bai Hai Park) doing taiji and baji (which surprised me because he had to be in his 80s). They were by themselves, had no students, no fame, no arguments over whose style is the greatest or who beat up who.

Then we went back home and I caught the documentary Martial Arts Today and watched two guys from the Hebei province do their training (day in and day out). The one that was 98 caught my eye simply because he did it persistantly everyday simply because it was who he was. The transcript read:

"Since the opening and reform policies implemented in China, every trade has done utmost to develop economy. Kung fu has no longer been the means to conquer enemies. In Cangzhou, however, kung fu practicing is still popular. Wherever you go, the one you meet may be a good player. There, we picked two less-known players and took down what they did in a day. The two didn’t know each other, their homes far apart, the 60-odd Sun in Qingxian County, and 98-year old Zhu in Cangxian County.


People like them are many in Cangzhou, viewed not as the top players. They have practiced it through out their lives, easy to be approached, never in the hope to gain a quick success or anything. They never hoped to, one day, establish their own school. This peaceful state of mind has left them in excellent health." http://www.cctv.com/lm/176/71/88860.html

It struck a chord.

[Syd]

But thats the vibe isn't it? It's what humble pursuit of the Tao is all about, you literally become your practice and it becomes your life and lifestyle, your vocation your vacation as they say.

To quote my main man...

"The Tao that can be expressed is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name"

Lao baby...

[Thundermudd]

Good stuff.
I have the thought that if you say you have learned everything, you are only limiting yourself.
Persuit of the mystery continues...

[Ky-Fi]

OK, I don't need to shake anyone's hand or anything, but I have been known to crank "Cruiser's Creek", "Dead Beat Descendant" or their cover of "Victoria" at top volume.

As far as reaching a destination, I don't really think so. I think the truth about martial arts is that there are tons of great, deep, effective and beneficial martial arts out there that we will NEVER HAVE TIME TO LEARN. I think peoples' egos are deceiving them when they try to tell themselves that their art covers it all, which by necessity leads to denigrating other arts. You only get good at something by putting in the time (with proper instruction), and we all have a finite amount of time. With all the arts that have been developing for generations around the world, we just don't have time to learn even a small percentage of them in REAL depth. Even within an art, you can't "master" every aspect. The more time you spend on sword, that's less time you have to spend on chin na. The more time you spend on saber, the less time you have to spend on kicking. It's always a choice of being pretty good at everything, or really good at a few things, or unbelievably good at one thing--and I think that choice is always a subjective call. Why do you want to learn the stuff, what do you enjoy the most, and what's most important to you? I don't think there's an easy answer for that.

I agree with RAF's post, you've got to enjoy the "doing'.

[count]

In the words of the famous philosopher, Alfred E. Newman,


Don't worry about growing old, when you stop, your dead.
;)

[No_Know]

The destination is the traveling.

"The more time you spend on sword, that's less time you have to spend on chin na."

Swording requires a strong grip. Swording is not taking away from Chin-Na.~

" The more time you spend on saber, the less time you have to spend on kicking."

Saber might contain kicks.. Saber might require a bursting up, which makes for stronger legs. Stronger legs is still on the path of improved kicking. Saber does not necessarily take away from kicking.

Mastery? A finite form can be learned. This is a step. There are aspects to any move. Finding the most artful combinations of these aspects for each move, then being consistant is mastery of awareness. Absolute mastery might come from mastery of awareness by Tailoring the moves of that form appropriately to the moment unregretablly.~

One might master a thing but not believe one has done so. As one might can master without being aware. Defining if there is mastery seems not a thing with which to be concerned.

Approaching Mastery is perhaps the most one can conceivablly handle. As long as you Are one would Be.

Finishing does not seem to matter much if at all. Being better than before perhaps seems the most. Getting the underlying might be a key to understanding a relationship to all (if not much; if not some).~

One loves one's mother. This does not end nor lessen when one love's one's spouse. Many of a gender can be appreciated without as much as loving each one. chosing a new love should not hamper previous L(l)ove(s). If it seems to, then perhaps, then, was not Love. As this Now might only be infatuation.

[Ray Pina]

Generally, I think you can "learn" a style, get the sense of it, in 3 to 5 years. Longer than that is specializing, which can be good and bad.

Over specializing, in terms of nature, can lead to extinction over time. Evolving seems to be the better bet.

Karate was my foundation, it was good to me Wing Chun added sticking and new angles .... very important. Southern Mantis turned me mean ... in a good sort of way, and learned to test technique.

Now, Hsing-I continues to teach me how to be more powerful. I hear Ba Gua will make me more crafty. We'll see.

My master's syetem E-Chuan is another thing. I can manifest a few of his ideas and others still escape me. This is the dragon that I'm chasing now. I want to specialize in this system, because this system has no reverence. It's built on change, on evolving and upgrading. It fears no system, only becoming stagnant, an antique.

[taijiquan_student]

EvolutionFist, you're at David Chan's school, right? Were you at the sword get-together between your school and mine (Scott Rodell and Great River Taoist Center) last month? Do you know if any of it was videotaped? I couldn't make it to the event, but would love to see some of it if possible. Thanks, man.

[Ray Pina]

I was there, but as a spectator. I am not yet a swordsman. I do consider it a priveledge to be a student of Master Chan though. I think we might be getting together next year as well, but also adding pushhands ... and hopefully free sparring.


If you're ever in the NYC area give me a buz.