Long form vs short forms

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

Based on what i have experienced through the years of taiji training i have come up to conclusions that short forms are absolutley useless for development of real gong fu. the grandmasters all practiced long forms and repeatedly practiced long forms for many decades of there training.

short forms are lacking of the complete sets and are just for stimulating the meridans for health while the longer forms begin to train the extraordinary power channels used in gong fu.

that is why i practice a few sets of long form and really feel it in my legs afterwards.

[bodhitree]

I often just practice short forms for the gongfu. I often just grasp the sparrows tail a number of times in a row, train the jins.

however long is good also. They both have their place.

[[Censored]]

And the greatest indication of "real gong fu" is your ability to perform long sets. What an interesting coincidence!

[denali]

Train gong over taolu!

The length of the form has jack squat to do with developing skill.

I usually don't post too often.. but I think this is important.

If you want to talk about how past masters trained, it was simply not just form practice. Any good master has spent plenty of time repeating even one movement over and over, day after day. This is gong.

[SevenStar]

well said.

[bamboo_ leaf]

One movement done correctly is worth more then one thousand done incorrectly, of course it might take one thousand tries to get the one movement right.

Short forms, are by there nature condensed versions of something longer. If your looking for movement the longer ones might have more varied movements. If you’re looking for principles then I think the shorter ones should be enough.

It depends on your view point. The from is a tool to help you get to a place not the place itself.

[Syd]

There are very few repeats in the Mien Chuan sets but multiple repeats in the Yang Cheng Fu 108. The reason is that one is for combat and the other is for internal organ health and healing on the physical and spiritual levels.

I agree that for health, the short forms are sorely lacking. For combat applications? well if they have been boiled down to essence then perhaps it's not so bad, but there is also a jiben gong/raison d'etre involved in long set work. Forms were only made short to make it easier for people with no patience or time to learn them, apart from that, they have no value IMHO.

[[Censored]]

You got it backwards dude. Short forms came first. Long forms were created because it's easy to forget one of a dozen short ones.

You'd be better off to state "I am proud of my long forms" and just leave it at that.

[Syd]

I beg to differ dude!... I'll stand by my statement and leave it just like you found it, kay?

If you are refering to the original 13 postures then sure, they were built upon well after the fact. What comes down from The Yangs is not what I would call short form.

[ngokfei]

Both long and short forms have there place.

Short forms today are great when teaching in a commercial ($$$) school. Thats why there exist so many different short sets in Chen now. Each has created there own. I believe there are four 38 movement sets now.

I teach a short 10 & 16 movement Wu before learning the Medium length and long length forms. (has served me great in teaching "Short" term beginning students. At least they've finsihed something before they quit.

Yep right on the head. The original sets were very short. And yes there are benefits in doing both short and long sets. (also practice HG and history has it that WFH knew over 12 hand sets and was able to combine them to create the core 3 sets we have today.

but for direct fighting skills I like short forms and lots of individual technique repetitions alone and with a partner.

[Thundermudd]

I'm in agreement that both long and short have their place.
I also believe that their is more to training in an internal system than just the forms themselves. You need to break that form down and do the individual peices until you have 'got them'.
Bamboo said something very proper here, "One movement done correctly is worth more then one thousand done incorrectly, of course it might take one thousand tries to get the one movement right."
My main thing here is that you must go beyond the external shell of the form - you need to learn what each movement means and how it is done properly with true internal power. This is vital to getting it. Just doing the form - no matter how long or short - is worthless unless you know how to train the movements.

[Syd]

There is an extremely important Qigong element in the long forms, thats comes only through the practice of the long forms. It's the difference between standing qigong for 5 mins and 30 mins.

As far as applications go and breaking down the form and getting into applications, sure, who can argue with the obvious? It is the enormous health benefits that are diminished by way of the shortened forms.

[Thundermudd]

Why can't you just do a short form over and over againg without stopping?
Benefits might not be as great as a long form simply due to less variations in movement; but for many of the folks that study Taiji for health and not for martial capability - doing anything besides sitting on their a$$ is better.

[backbreaker]

I think doing single movements could be good at first , but if you want to go high-level , I would guess you need both long forms to develop all the combinations of energies and fighting techniques together . I only practice the beginning of cannon fist because I don't know all of it , and it's still good to do the part I know.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It has been my understanding that the repetitions in the long form were to emphasize that movement's importance.. Long form or short, it is the intentions of the student that will determine the usefulness.. a corretly motivated student will find the obvious and the subtle benefits in the lessons being taught.. Whichever is "better" is truly a matter of preference.. repetitions of a short form may be equally as beneficial as the longer version, but either, done incorrectly or with poor attitude, will do little but fill some time... The short form has satisfied my needs many times when time was at a premium, it has merit when there is simply insufficient time to go through my normal 2 hour session.. (business trips, etc...) Most of the short forms i am familiar with have good principle, good application, and are far better than no form at all..

Be well...

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

why do you practice the long form? that was the dumbest thing i had ever heard. the short forms are simply imcomplete and made to teach because people are simply getting dumber. first there was a 24 form and then a 37 form and now a 12 form and a 8 form. they keep simplifying the simplyified forms. the real essence is in the long form what the grand masters call hua jing. yes you can repeat and master small movements and get quality over quantity, but after becoming competent in the small, the long form. the long form is what came from chen village, it was already perfect.

as for the cheng man ching guys- they can chose to practice their incomplete system. i will stay with my complete system with long forms, broadsword, straight sword , spear, staff and pushands, da lu and more.

[Syd]

Ma,

I'm afraid we are of the same opinion at my own school and short forms don't get much respect for the same reasons you have stated also. When the old master were stating that Taijiquan was being watered down, they were talking about the alterations of the original long forms... if it ain't broke why fix it?

[ngokfei]

Ma

so I guess Chen Xiao Wong and the other diamonds are dumb for creating short forms???

And when did the Chen STyle become a "Complete/perfect style" As far as I know they are still adding things to it so what Chen Wan Ting created must of been "incomplete/imperfect"?

Wow have you seen that "double straight sword set" what a piece of crap. I guess the creativity bone is broken as they just used the double saber form as its base. 2 different weapons totally.

In all everything has its place and calling people dumb won't help.

also when have YOU touched hands with the Chen Man Ching guys??

[Syd]

A friend of a friend went to the local Chen Man Ching school in my locale recently and found there was a total emphasis on push hands and nothing else. The guy has done Taiji for many years but now does I Chuan and rolls in BJJ for fun once a week with friends.

The Chen guys kept saying "all you need for fighting is right here in push hands", so in the end my friends buddy just picked the guy up and threw him over his shoulder! His push hands did nothing to prevent this from happening...

I think there's allot of this kind of ignorance and arrogance in the Taiji community which is the source of so much scoffing from other martial arts communities. Thank the heavens though that all our schools are *not* the same.

[brassmonkey]

"I think there's allot of this kind of ignorance and arrogance in the Taiji community which is the source of so much scoffing from other martial arts communities."

you might be suprised to find out who the fighters of martial arts today(mma) who are aquainted with tcc find to be good and who they consider not

[brassmonkey]

"short forms are lacking of the complete sets and are just for stimulating the meridans for health while the longer forms begin to train the extraordinary power channels used in gong fu."

wow that sounds very esoteric which means I don't understand **** you said. Who cares about health here, thought this was a fighting art. How did you discover this meridian stimulation vs extraordinary power channel theory, does the latter open up your microcosmic orbit while the former doesnt??

Wasn't it you who a few months ago stated you had an epifome with all your forms you knew from bagua, tcc, hsing i where you stripped it all down to a handful of moves because you felt there was too much in all the forms and you'd never get good at it? Wouldnt by this logic that short forms are better for fighting?

[RAF]

Is there something special about how single moving postures are linked together and what the magic number is for number linked? Any good explanation as to why a long form has repeat posture movements and why every movement is not done in duplication and/or triplication? How do you chose which ones to repeat and which ones not to?

Why can't you play a form like 37 movement CMC 3 times in a row and call it a long form? Were there short forms before CMC or were there always long forms that got reduced?

Taijiquan---single static postures--->single moving postures---->linked single moving posture---->long linked form.

I wonder why long forms did evolve? Does anyone think that taiji started out as a complete long form?

If form length was such a critical issue in mastering a system, I wonder why there are no written or oral classics describing the optimal length of a form and the critical repeat postures. Maybe there is but I just don't know about it. Any thoughts?

Its an interesting question---I think about xing yi---single movements---linking 5 element form---and I assume there are other forms of the 10-12 animals contain at least some of the 5 elements (I am not a primary xing yi player).

Are short forms simply a modern invention for today's consumer? (personally I don't think so but who knows).

Short forms can really be a life-saver when you have 30 contestants in a Yang's taiji division. The through-the-back-door trick is to put time limits on the performance so every long form by default becomes a short form.

Good question, no answer.:confused:

[Syd]

you might be suprised to find out who the fighters of martial arts today(mma) who are aquainted with tcc find to be good and who they consider not

Huh?... and?

[brassmonkey]

sorry Syd I was setting you up with the Renzo Gracie trip to Australia

[Syd]

I'm still not quite with you, but there we are...

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

Taiji is a work in progress.. refinements are essential to its continued success.. it is unrealistic to assume that it is complete or perfect in its current form.. a brand-new form may be created that even better instills principles, the loss would be to dismiss a new form only because we feel bound by tradition.. tradition is stagnant, Taiji is not.. That being said, i do practice my traditional forms with heart-felt sincerity and i appreciate the great depth of wisdom contained in them... it is not inappropriate to maintain traditions while at the same time exploring new possibilities..

Short form, long form? there is wisdom and value in both (for those willing to see beyond their own prejudices)... Value gained is not a matter of proclamation by others, it is a personal experience unique to each person seeking something from Taiji.. Someone's opinion of the value of Long/Short forms should not diminish actual value gained by someone else.. If good solid principles are taught with the short form and combat applications are explained and practiced it should enhance the experience of the practitioner.. ( personally, if i could only practice one form its likely that i would choose 42 movement form)..

Be well..

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

so I guess Chen Xiao Wong and the other diamonds are dumb for creating short forms???

SHORT FORMS ARE RETARTED, ITS VERY CONFUSIANIST, TO DO SHORT FORMS IS FOR THE SUPERFICIAL BUSINESS MAN, WHILE THE LONG FORMS ARE FOR THE MARTIAL TAOISTS. 108 IS AN AUSPICIOUS NUMBER IN BUDDHISM AS WELL.

And when did the Chen STyle become a "Complete/perfect style" As far as I know they are still adding things to it so what Chen Wan Ting created must of been "incomplete/imperfect"?

I PRACTICE LAO JIA YI LU AND ER LU- IT IS PERFECT ALREADY.


also when have YOU touched hands with the Chen Man Ching guys??

i STARTED AS A CHEING MAN CHING GUY SO I KNOW WHATS UP? IT WAS THE ONLY THING AVAILABLE IN TAIJI IN THIS COUNTRY FOR A LONG TIME. I LEARNED MANY ASPECTS OF CHING MAN CHING TUI SHOU, THE GOOD PART IS THAT THEY ARE SENSITIVE, SLOW AND EXACT, BUT THEY LIMIT THEMSELVES ALSO AND LACK ALOT OF FLOW AND FREE MOVEMENT.

wow that sounds very esoteric which means I don't understand **** you said. Who cares about health here, thought this was a fighting art. How did you discover this meridian stimulation vs extraordinary power channel theory, does the latter open up your microcosmic orbit while the former doesnt??

YES CHENG MAN CHING TOLD HIS PEOPLE TO PRACTICE THE 37 FORM ONCE IN MORNING AND ONCE IN EVENING. THAT JUST BARELY STIMULATES THE MERIDIANS AND IS NOT ENOUGH. THEY WOULD HAVE TO PRACTICE THAT FORM 12 TIMES TO EQUAL WHAT THE GRANDMASTERS ACCOMPLISHED WITH TRAINING THE LONG YANG FORM 3 TIMES.

Wasn't it you who a few months ago stated you had an epifome with all your forms you knew from bagua, tcc, hsing i where you stripped it all down to a handful of moves because you felt there was too much in all the forms and you'd never get good at it? Wouldnt by this logic that short forms are better for fighting?

WHAT IS EPIFOME? I DONT STRIP FORMS DOWN. I HAVE LEARNED MANY FORMS OF BAGUA, HSING YI AND TAIJI- WHAT I HAVE DONE IS GONE DEEP INTO ONE MARTIAL ART AND THATS: TAIJIQUAN. WHICH I STARTED FROM AND WILL END WITH. i DONT WANT TO BE A JACK OF ALL INTERNAL ARTS LIKE SOME PEOPLE I KNOW AND HAVE NOTHING. AS FOR MIXED MARTIAL ARTS FIGHTING, ALL MARTIAL ARTISTS NEED TO BE AWARE OF GROUND TECHNIQUES, WRESTLING MOVES, THROWING KICKS AND PUNCHES, ESCAPING GRABS, HEAD LOCKS/CHOKES, ECT, TAIJIQUAN HAS THOSE THINGS. PRACTICAL FIGHTING IS VERY CRUCIAL.

[Shooter]

M_Z_X is clueless.

[Brad]

"WHAT IS EPIFOME? I DONT STRIP FORMS DOWN. I HAVE LEARNED MANY FORMS OF BAGUA, HSING YI AND TAIJI- WHAT I HAVE DONE IS GONE DEEP INTO ONE MARTIAL ART AND THATS: TAIJIQUAN. WHICH I STARTED FROM AND WILL END WITH. i DONT WANT TO BE A JACK OF ALL INTERNAL ARTS LIKE SOME PEOPLE I KNOW AND HAVE NOTHING. AS FOR MIXED MARTIAL ARTS FIGHTING, ALL MARTIAL ARTISTS NEED TO BE AWARE OF GROUND TECHNIQUES, WRESTLING MOVES, THROWING KICKS AND PUNCHES, ESCAPING GRABS, HEAD LOCKS/CHOKES, ECT, TAIJIQUAN HAS THOSE THINGS. PRACTICAL FIGHTING IS VERY CRUCIAL.

I think he means epiphany, like a suddent moment of insight. BTW, is this Mat?


YES CHENG MAN CHING TOLD HIS PEOPLE TO PRACTICE THE 37 FORM ONCE IN MORNING AND ONCE IN EVENING. THAT JUST BARELY STIMULATES THE MERIDIANS AND IS NOT ENOUGH. THEY WOULD HAVE TO PRACTICE THAT FORM 12 TIMES TO EQUAL WHAT THE GRANDMASTERS ACCOMPLISHED WITH TRAINING THE LONG YANG FORM 3 TIMES.
Then why can't someone just practice the form 12 times?

[backbreaker]

" Quality over quantity"
" There are no secrets "
" One move performed correctly is better than 100 performed poorly "
" Strive for high level skill"
" Practice very slowly and softly in the beginning"

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

brad said-
Then why can't someone just practice the form 12 times?

thats what they need to do to develop the gong i'm talking about.

thus back to my original post-

matt

"Based on what i have experienced through the years of taiji training i have come up to conclusions that short forms are absolutley useless for development of real gong fu. the grandmasters all practiced long forms and repeatedly practiced long forms for many decades of there training.

short forms are lacking of the complete sets and are just for stimulating the meridans for health while the longer forms begin to train the extraordinary power channels used in gong fu.

that is why i practice a few sets of long form and really feel it in my legs afterwards."


__________________
http://www.polariswushu.net

[Brad]

Then why are short forms "retarded"? For some people it's much easier to memorize the sequence of a short form and practice it over and over rather than memorize the sequence of a long form. This way, I would think, you would be able to spend more instruction time focusing on the basics rather than trying to have a long 20-30 minute sequence of moves memorized. So isn't the length of the form less important than the amound of overall time and effort you put into it? Is one hour of practicing a long form more valuable than one hour of a short form?

[Syd]

Conversely...

If people are prepared to repeat the short forms over and over to approximate the health benefits of the original long forms, then why not just learn the long forms in the first place?

For instance, if you do the 108 and you don't have allot of time, then you can easily just perform the first or second third leaving out the last third, and guess what? You have your short form!

There is no reason to alter the original long forms because you can just perform any chosen third of the 108 and break those up into your short forms, while still preserving the original long forms intact.

I still don't get the logic of altering the long forms one bit. it was the alteration of the original long forms that various Masters were alluding to when they mentioned the watering down of Taijiquan.

Anyone who believes that the Chinese Governments standardisation of Taiji for sport and the making of Taiji easier and shorter for business reasons, don't have anything to do with the watering down of Taiji might just be a part of the problem rather than the solution.

Respectfully...

[brassmonkey]

this thread reminds me of something Snoop Dogg once said:

"forms?!?! So forms are what make me now?!? Niggaaaer I don't give a f*c* about forms"

[Syd]

And Snoops been the pinacle of philosophical anaysis of Martial Arts for quite some time...

[brassmonkey]

actually I took some "artistic" license with Snoops quote. He was actually talking about beats instead of forms.

But you missed the point. What are you learning in the form's? Or are you just collecting forms like Shaolin Do?

[Syd]

I took your point, only I objected to Snoop Dog as representative of the Tao. ;)

Your right in suggesting that without deeper analysis and adherance to the classics and application to the fighting sets, breathing, body mechanics, qi circulation etc, etc, etc... forms are but empty vessels.

I suppose it is assumed by me when I talk about this that most people are already doing this to varying degrees, perhaps my fault here is in overestimating others. I'd rather do that than be patronizing, afterall, we're all the dearly converted here, are we not?

I feel there is a greater opportunity for internal work as well as a particular form of endurance jiben gong at work in the long forms. I think each person gets out of it what they put in. I consistently have strong Qi sensation when I perform my long forms and this often occurs on days when I haven't had time for 3 circle standing or packing qigongs.

I can only talk from my own perspective and share my own thoughts and findings. I have read many interviews with various old teachers who have not thought too highly of altered and shortened forms. If I say that breaking the long forms into 3rds and making those short forms I do not feel this to be an unreasonable suggestion. I see a wisdom in the way the forms were structured and choose to adhere, thats all.

Best, Syd

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

The purpose of the thread was to start something interesting on this board. some teacher explained that if you do a movement a 1000 times then it it yours. so basics are important. I started with short forms. before i learned short forms we did hundreds of repetitions of taiji walking forward with brush knee, part horses mane, pung lu ji an, back walking with repluse monkey and side walking with wave hands like clouds. then took a entire year to learn the 37 yang short form of cheng man ching.

over a year ago i learned a very short form call 13 wudang form. it is the 13 principle movements inherant in all taiji forms. its a good form to remind oneself of the 13 taiji principles.

here is a links from the teacher-
http://www.taiji-outfits-gifts.com/taiji_forum.html

i dont teach nor do i have interest to teach except one person who is a partner for two man taiji sets.

if i were to teach (which i dont plan to do for another 10 years) i would do something like this and actually use short forms in the beginning stages so when the long form is introduced the student can adapt more quickly.

http://www.geocities.com/Pipeline/Shore/8797/yangcomplete.html

matt

[ngokfei]

Ma/Matt

Wow, yu did alot of talking just to finally agree with what everyone was saying.

So why the contradiction? If the short forms are useless or only for retardd people then why teach them??? (or do you plan to teach retarded people) But then again you learned them !!

:o

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

thats why i really dont teach, because people are so dumb nowadays. but i said if i were to teach, it would be a short form to build up to the long form where after learning the long form, then the short form becomes useless after the long form is completed. its kind of like training wheels.

ngokfei a question for you: for example the 38 chen style short form is neither lao jia nor xin jia but a combination of both. what a perfect way to confuse a beginner student. then another taiji master created a 18 short form thats a combination of both chen styles as well. why didnt they just make a lao jia short form?

as for contradicitions- i was searching for peoples reactions, feedback, opinions, experiences. if you read what I said i began with short forms and repeated movements but find the longer training times via a long form to help in building gong.

nobody is wrong here, nobody is perfect too.

[Vapour]

Hmmm, I just skim through the entire thread. Bit suprised that no CMC practioner made a comment.

Here is an explanation. CMC form is know as a *posture* form. It is complete because the emphasis of the form is the foundamental postures and movements in taijiquan and it is not at all concerned with technical variation of each posture s and movements. So if you think CMC form is lacking many variations of these fundamental postures and movement which you can see in long form, all I can say is that that is the whole point of CMC form. To de-emphasise the applications so one can concentrate on development of what CMC considered as the *principle* of taijiquan. You learn applications as a separate part of curriculum. And of course, push hands is a part of it. I should also mention that CMC's Taiwanese lineage has neigon as part of baish system. If you want qigong aspect, you practice that in that part. After all, CMC was master of five excellence, one of it being Chinese medicine. So I find it difficult to believe if his teaching of qigong was lacking compared to other taijiquan practioners who has not made specialised study as CMC did. I have not covered the entire curriculum of CMC yet but yes, it is a complete system if you know what each component of the system is for. It looks lacking if you see CMC system from your style's perspective.

Secondly, if you are studying a style whose main form is a long form, then any short form developed for it is merely a learning tool for the long form. I do not like 24 standard form because not only it lacks some fundamental aspect of taijiquan but it start off with repulse monkey (an advance movement) in the very beginning of the form. Having said it, it is very good form for a beginner to pick up a tajiquan choreography so it is definitely not a bad form for beginner if your school is based on Yang Long form.

I also know of a master in Singapore who, every morning, practice what is called businessmen form, an extremly short form of 5 movements (wardoff, roll back, press, push and singlewhip). He just repeat this for 40 minutes every morning. If you know jing, why complicate matter by doing many different moves. I'm quite sure that master of Chen stylist can train jing just by doing silk reeling.

If you think Long form is superior simply because long form has this or that movement, I seriously doubt you know what taijiquan is all about.

Lastly, one major advantage of CMC form is that when you entre a stage where you perform your form extremly slow to train jing, you can do entire form in less than an hour.

[ngokfei]

Ma/Matt

Your so right about the Chen Short forms.

Don't know why they did that and they don't benefit but confuse beginners.

Chen's present short forms should only be used as a bridge from learning the Lao Jia & Pao Chui to the Xin Jia adaptations of Chen Fa Ker.

I don't do Chen but have seen these sets personally.

ONly the Yang style to date has a "somewhat" progressive learning curriculum that includes short forms (10, 16, 24, 37?, 80?, 108, etc)

[Brad]

80? You must be thinking of the 85 form which is the same as 108(just counted the moves differently).

[Brad]

I tried learning a couple chen short forms(36 & 56), but they didn't turn out too well :p

[scholar]

Different strokes for different folks...

Myself, I don't like short forms for training. I want all the applications that my teachers want to teach me in there, and I want to practice them all, a lot. Demonstrations or competitions are another thing, though. Then a shorter form comes in handy. At my school, though, you have to learn the long form first.

From the purely technical side, the expression of the principles through many different angles found in a long form has a distinct health benefit that more limited routines don't have. This is demonstrable.

From an entirely opinionated point of view - an opinion which is intended to be provocative to my students, at least - why should a beginner waste time learning a short routine that will just be abandoned for a long one down the line? That time has to spent anyway, and there is so much information to be covered by a serious student that it doesn't make sense to me to take baby steps. Learn the long form and get it over with.

Of course, CMC style is different, they don't teach a long form, so this doesn't apply to them, I am thinking more of Ch'en, Yang and Wu family style students.

If a student just can't learn it, if it is too difficult, I tell them that maybe they have to learn something else first. My primary goal, my responsibility to my teachers, is accurate high-level transmisson of the art. Not many martial arts are so transmitted by coddling the beginning students. I know what I had to go through to learn what I know and know well. To learn what I've learned they have to do the work! If they do, I can teach them. If they don't, well, they will inevitably be passed up by people who started after them and may start to wonder why. If they simply get mad at all the hard work that is expected and quit, there are still plenty of fluffy "health only" classes that they can go and be mystical in. Good riddance.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Notably, the Yang 24 movement "short form" links movements together in ways that the long form doesn't.. it shows us that we can deviate from the confines of a "form", that we can link movements differently depending on situations while preserving principles.. Yang short form also more evenly trains left and right sides, it puts emphasis in places that the long form doesn't..

Too much focus on "Form" (choreography).. too little focus on principle.. Forms teach principles, principles make the forms work.. Long form, short form, middle form.. learn all that your style has to offer. i have never heard a student say they didn't want to learn something new (neither have i)..

I appreciate scholar's perspective, i learned the Yang Long Form first, too.. but, i also see the benefit of the short form.. and, if someone wanted only to learn the short form, i would gladly oblige.. who am i to deny someone a taste of Tai Chi, and it may bring them into the whole Tai Chi "way".. There seems to be a bit of "attachment" to personal preference here, assuming that personal preference is "the" way.. "the" way is determined by the one walking their chosen path, not by our proclamations of preferences..

Be well..

[denali]

Personally I think this over emphasis on ''form'' is what is watering gongfu down. If you only train the form, it doesn't matter, long or short, you are not training gong.

While the form does have some benefit, in order to fully understand the movements you also have to think, use your brain, analyze. This does not happen by simply repeating a pattern over and over. Someone said that short forms are for dumb people. I say only training forms, regardless of length, is for dumb people.

Like math, you learned 1+2+3. What about 2+1+3, etc? You learned a movement in the form, can you do it in a different direction, with the other side of the body..etc? You need to break it down and do more training than just the form, otherwise you are still not yet training gongfu.

Why does Xingyi train short forms of just a few movements..?
Why do people bother training hours and hours of stances or footwork? Why did Yang Chengfu spend so much time repeating single whip and repulse monkey?

I don't claim to be an expert or anywhere close, but this is what I have been taught, and stand by it.

[scholar]

You do need both form and no-form, yin and yang. Beginners need the form first. The form has to be just right for efficient training, but you have to be able to transcend it in an instant for fighting, too. I have been taught that the form is for conditioning and focus training, which is why it is taught first. On top of that, it is an internal form, so there is more going on than an untrained person will get consciously from external appearances.

So the form and basic push hands make sure that you don't skip bits of your conditioning. Freestyle pushing hands and sparring helps you break out of the patterns, indeed they demand that you be able to demonstrate ability or you'll get hammered...

As the musicians say: "Technique isn't everything, but you can't do anything without it!"

[Vapour]

It is my view that to improve particular technique, nothing can beat *drilling*. That is to practice one particular technique repeatedly.

Doing different variations of technique in sequence just miss the benefit of specialisation and waste become more pronoucned as the form get longer. It is my view that the form is specialised tool to train body (jing?). And drilling is specialised tool to train particular technique. I'm not saying long form is bad. As long as one concentrate on building internal strength, it is perfectly fine. I'm just saying that it is not the best way to train individual techniques.

One interesting comparison. Even in judo, there are only about 13-15 basic throws. But each throw has 100s of variation. And to become good judo player, doing uchikomi (technique drilling) is a must.

As of benefit of performing form both left and right equally, according to Cheng Man ching, who was a master of Chinese Medicine, that it is bad rather than good because humand internal organ are not placed symetrically.

[scholar]

I agree, training technique is best left to sparring drills and push hands. The form is conditioning, and a catalogue of techniques. To apply those techniques, however, you have to have training beyond the forms.

You bring up a good point that left and right aren't the same. One side is blood, the other side is ch'i from a TCC standpoint. Externally, we train to do anything on the left side that we can do on the right, internally, the circulations are naturally different. The masters who formulated and transmitted T'ai Chi to us were also masters of Traditional Chinese Medicine and took these circulations into account when setting the training routines handed down by the 5 families.

The internal energies are subtle and the traditional family long forms - beyond the purely physical regimen - circulate and balance those energies very deliberately through a specific set of complete ranges of motion, leaving nothing out, circulating, balancing and recirculating until the desired end is achieved. If it is a good form, there is no wastage, indeed, there is tremendous benefit. It is one of the downfalls of most short forms that they are not properly balanced that way. I'm not saying that it is impossible to do it, just that very few of the shorter forms that I have ever seen were formulated by people capable of understanding the difference, so they don't have the same effect.

[Brad]

deleted my post because I'm going on vacation and won't be able to read or respond to any replies for a week :p I'll repost if no one else has said it after I get back ;) :D

[Vapour]

As someone who practice judo and taichichuan, I just can't fail to notice the similarity when it come up. True, judo is a sports and totally ignore *internal* aspect (whatever that is) so there isn't yoga/form-practice aspect in judo.

Judo place great emphasis on uchikomi (technique drilling) and randori (sparing). When I started judo, I used to really have go at it in randori. I was then told that if I do randori like that I will never improve. Basically, to prevent being thrown, I was stiffning my arm to keep randori partner away. If both side do that, each side are prevented from practicing technique which you trained in uchikomi. In randori, your arm have to be deliberately soft so that both you and your partner can practice as much techniques as possible. You must make concious decision not to counter power with power and instead focus on countering technique with technique. You have real go at it in shiai (competition).

Plus, my judo coach give me occasional suprise because he give me the same advice as in taichi. I was recently told that I have to think in term of *space*. The same advice I was told by my taichi instructor. And everyone must have heard by now how much BJJ emphasis relaxation.

To bring the thread back to original topic, yep, IMHO, form is for internal strength, and drilling and push-hands and controlled sparing for techniques. In long forms, entire theme of body training are included in various stage of form performance. In short form or styles which are short form based (like CMC) it is responsiblity of the practioner to be aware of different theme so the form performance can be altered to train various aspect of the theme.. In reverse, if you are not aware of the these themes, it makes no difference whether you practice long form or short form.

[scholar]

V.,

Would you say those themes include the famous '8 gates' p'eng, lu, chi, an, ts'ai, lieh, tsou and k'ao?

In terms of what you are saying I'm guessing that they should be the themes expressed in forms, as well as combinations of the 8 gates, such as as fa (discharge for distance no impact), na (locking and breaking the joints), ta (hitting for impact no distance) and hua (neutralizing). Those are the first 4 "methods of application" or combinations of the 8 gates trained in my school. We eventually go for expressing as many of those themes in the forms at once as we can depending on the perspective of the observer. For example, in the first postures of the form: the motion described by the top of the arm can be p'eng at the same time that the motion downward through the elbows (from the perspective of an opponent below the arms) can be both ts'ai and tsou simultaneously, the elbow (tsou) 'plucking' in a downward strike, as well as the same motion expressing a na style trap with the elbows from above (if a hypothetical opponent has grabbed one or both of the elbows).

Expressing and applying in this sense aren't the same things, of course. The accurate expression means that the stand alone motions themselves would work if there was an opponent in the right place providing the appropriate opportunity. The test for the students of whether the form's expression is accurate in application is indeed two person drills of p'eng, lu, chi, etc. and fa, na, ta, and hua; fencing and weapons/empty hand drills, freestyle sparring bridging into wrestling (closing the gap, so to speak), footsweeps, throws and groundfighting and whether or not those applications will work with the same or similar motions that the students are working with in the forms. If the senior teacher can get them to work and the student can't, then the student still has some work to do. If the senior teacher can't get them to work, maybe the motions shouldn't be in their forms. The senior teacher in the school presumably should have the experience to be able to simply watch another's form and make an accurate assessment of its martial efficiency. And we all know that martial efficiency is necessary for the fastest route to the miraculous health aspect of TCC.

Cheers,
S.

[Vash]

Have more omves than Short Forms.

[Vapour]

Nah, scholar. If you are talking about technique such as locking, hitting and so on, no way. I'm talkinga about principles such as following, rooting, or general conceptual strategy such as invading opponent's space or leading opponent to void or listening opponent through hand contacts.

And he doesn't really say these thing as if it is a quote from (taichichuan) scripture. When I'm doing something wrong or I ask question, then he correct me or give me some advices and his advice often turn out to be sometime very similar to or exactly the same as the taichi classics. And he hasn't got a faintest clue about what taichi classic is. But he is a Kodokan 8th dan teaching judo for like 40 years so go figure.

As of long form, I really don't mind learning Yang long form once I feel I got to o.k. level in CMC. But then, I might just skip and do something like Chen. But that will be in the future.

[scholar]

Originally posted by Vapour Nah, scholar. If you are talking about technique such as locking, hitting and so on, no way. I'm talkinga about principles such as following, rooting, or general conceptual strategy such as invading opponent's space or leading opponent to void or listening opponent through hand contacts.

...



Following I can see as in following the time of the other people in the form, rooting of course is related to how relaxed you are in the form, and these things are necessary to expressing p'eng, lu, etc. correctly, in forms and pushing hands, but they come from pushing hands first, and only later are translated into the forms. Which is why we say, "the form cannot be correct without pushing hands." Locking, hitting, etc. in TCC are only accomplished if you have looseness, sensitivity, rooting stickiness already, to allow for 'soft style' timing, coordination and positioning. Those things cannot go out the door in sparring if you want to be a TCC practitioner! Although with most people, unfortunately, they do...

[wiz cool c]

Short form is good for paying attention to detail. The long forms somtime have you thinking how much more do I have left. And the short form is also more practical for some people like myself who live in NYC where there is not a lot of space to practice. Also it is the teacher that matters. The long form has martial application and the short form doesn't. This is bull. It is the teacher how he learned and how he teaches it.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

I went last night to train with this guy who does alot of Dr. Yang Jwing ming's yang taiji pushing and forms. Alot of interesting points were talked about long form without even asking him. He says the yang long form is the only form taught at the school. It should be done up to four times a day in 20 minute rounds. Each long form having some area of focus.

He couldnt remember what they were all about some thing like, first round is to open the body up, second round is structural alignment , third round chi flow, fourth round is for gong fu/ fighting applications.

matt

[Syd]

I like Yang Jwing Ming, and I'm going to do a backflip here and say; Hey, if people get benefit from their short forms and prefer it to the long forms, why not? It's got to be a personal thing at the end of the day. I guess the only thing I ever found a bit brow furrowing was this idea that people didn't have the discipline to learn the long forms so the short forms were born of that necessity. If thats the case then I think it's a bit of a cop out and a shame, but, if the short forms do give and equal benefit to those studying them and all the same benefits as those privy to the long forms, then fine, lets live and let live.

Best, Syd

[qiphlow]

hmm--any form can be made long or short. do the yang 24 form 24 times in a row and it's a LONG form :). i believe that with any form, you get out what you put in. you can do a form well and have a good result from it, or you can just do it half assed and get no benefit whatever. your level of skill in any art is directly proportional to the work you put in to that art. the length of an individual form doesn't have much to do with anything.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Not been here for some time and I see still the same old useless arguments are flying back and forth.

Short vs long forms, they don't matter as was mentioned it depends on HOW you train them to get the benefit from them.

A good Sifu will have you sweating and panting after either a long or short form, the same way he will have you in agony during zhang zhuang in BOTH high and low stances and even after a few seconds. :D

If your mind wanders in the long form and you start wondering how much you got left, than I got to say you haven't learned how to train properly yet or are not doing it properly.

In my Chen style we recently were shown a newly developed short-form, nobody liked it. ;) We do our long-form and end facing backwards to remind us to do the form AGAIN.

Forms alone will not get you there nor will Tui Shou or any other training method.

In the end all is arbitrary unless you train CORRECTLY and if you do it does not matter if your form has got 5 or 5000 moves in it or if you do x repetitions.

As was mentioned doingthe form once correctly carries more benefit than doing it often.

Question is;
Are YOU doing the from CORRECTLY or are you still double-weighted?

Seeya, maybe in a few months time.

[qiphlow]

exactly, T'ai Ji Monkey, exactly!!!