Historical Fencing

[apoweyn]

I thought I'd spinoff of the fencing discussion that I introduced to Sevenstar's training blog.

I've gotten into fencing a bit, mostly as an opportunity to explore eskrima with the blade. Eskrima teachers always say that stick translates to blade. And essentially, that's true. But there are technical considerations that have to be made. And I thought fencing would give me a venue to do that (though there are some limitations in fencing that preclude things like footwork off the line, etc.).

In any event, here's the last post from Fatherdog on the subject to kick things off.

[Meat Shake]

"here's the last post from Fatherdog on the subject to kick things off."

:confused:

[apoweyn]

Fatherdog:
I fenced a bit in college too (in fact, I think the trenton state fencing club website may still have "designed by David Moraski" at the bottom of their webpage). I eventually couldn't fit it into my schedule. Working two jobs killed a lot of potential activities in school. I loved sabre, though. But then, I also did midieval reenactment fighting in college, and sabre had a lot more crossover than the others.... although I was surprised at how many foil techniques were directly applicable to polearms.

I've had the same thought about it translating to longstaff, although as an impact weapon, thrusting as a riposte probably isn't going to get the job done on its own.

Sabre is beautiful, yeah. First weapon I fenced with, oddly enough. (The fencing club in college weren't sticklers for classic fencing methodology. They were mostly crossover SCA guys. Like you mentioned.)

My first bout, I fenced the president of the club (also named Stuart, oddly enough) with sabre. Noticed he used what we call a 'roof block' or 'wing' in eskrima. Wouldn't be at all surprised if they called it a roof block in fencing too, of course.


I actually got disarms on a semi-frequent basis; largely because I have freakishly strong wrists, and when I was pressed I would often panic and parry far too hard.

I was notorious for resisting disarms in eskrima because of my freakishly flexible wrists. Particularly in competition. You only get a second or two to effect a disarm. And my rubber band wrists usually meant my opponent had to work at it longer than that. In fact, I won one fight in San Francisco based largely on my opponent wracking up something like 20 failed disarm attempts. They don't count against you pointwise, but they do make you look ineffectual after a while. Especially when coupled with all the backpedaling he was doing (mostly to maintain largo mano long range, in his defense).


The fact that the only other person who showed up as regularly as me was the club president, who was also an honest to god midget, meant that I got pretty good in a disproportionately short time. You try hitting a target that small while defending 6'4" of yourself....

Well, I'm a mere 6'1" myself. But my friend is about 6'3", and I'm seeing how the height plays into it, yeah. My other friend is... oh, I don't know. Five nine perhaps. Not short. But shorter. And I've noticed that Mike (6'3") tends to attack when he's rightfully at Daws' (5'9") attack range. So he either crowds his own attack (resulting in something more like b!tchslapping Daws with the side of the blade) or getting stabbed by Daws before he gets his attack off.

But once Mike started to learn how to attack from further away, that changed the equation considerably. Of course, we're all beginners. So Daws is still learning to capitalize on the height difference. He's aggressive though, so as he works on it, I think Mike and I are going to spend more time trying to keep Daws out of our grills.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
"here's the last post from Fatherdog on the subject to kick things off."

:confused:

Patience, ya sod! ;)

[yenhoi]

How do fencers practice when not fencing?

Lots of lunging? Escala practice? Box patterns of some sort?

How do they practice riposte?

Any mis-matched weapon training? Sabre vs Epee?

I probably have more.

Thanks!


:D

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by apoweyn


I've had the same thought about it translating to longstaff, although as an impact weapon, thrusting as a riposte probably isn't going to get the job done on its own.

Interestingly, police officer baton courses teach the thrust. It's considered an effective damage technique, particularly applied to the legs, and it's less likely to go wide and hit a fellow officer than a swing (a consideration when several officers are trying to subdue a suspect).



Sabre is beautiful, yeah. First weapon I fenced with, oddly enough.

Ah, so you didn't get to have the First Sabre Match.

When someone goes from foil to sabre, invariably the first bout ends with him being smacked right on top of the head.



But once Mike started to learn how to attack from further away, that changed the equation considerably. Of course, we're all beginners. So Daws is still learning to capitalize on the height difference. He's aggressive though, so as he works on it, I think Mike and I are going to spend more time trying to keep Daws out of our grills.

This is one of the best things fencing does for you, I think - it makes you very keenly aware of distances of attack effectiveness. That and timing.

[SevenStar]

I've been meaning to go check out some classes, but the only people that teach it here are with the sca, and I kinda question what the quality would be... I can't pass judgement till I go check them out though, I suppose.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by FatherDog
Interestingly, police officer baton courses teach the thrust. It's considered an effective damage technique, particularly applied to the legs, and it's less likely to go wide and hit a fellow officer than a swing (a consideration when several officers are trying to subdue a suspect).

Well, that's a good point. For some reason, though, the idea of just thrusting with a longstaff seems... feh. I don't know. I suck with the long staff. So I should probably shut up.


Ah, so you didn't get to have the First Sabre Match.

When someone goes from foil to sabre, invariably the first bout ends with him being smacked right on top of the head.

I was spared that, yeah. But then, I'd been competing in stickfighting for several years by then, and had already gone through the 'ritualistic beating of the skull' phase.


This is one of the best things fencing does for you, I think - it makes you very keenly aware of distances of attack effectiveness. That and timing.

Exactly. Timing and distance. And the subtleties attached to those two things. Like reaction speed (timing) and footwork (distance). If all I ever take from fencing is the increased ability to retreat, defend, and then quickly counter (riposte), I'll consider it time well spent.


Stuart B.

[Merryprankster]

Helio would own a fencer.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I've been meaning to go check out some classes, but the only people that teach it here are with the sca, and I kinda question what the quality would be... I can't pass judgement till I go check them out though, I suppose.

My first exposure was with SCA guys too. And I actually think that was one of the biggest strengths of that experience.

They weren't as 'attached' to the technicalities of fencing as my current group. So on the one hand, I could do a lot of eskrima maneuvers that didn't really fit into competitive fencing. (Footwork, mostly, tended to take me off of any competitive 'strip.')

On the other hand, I've already learned small techniques in this class that I wasn't taught in the other class. Part of the increased eye on technicality in this group is a genuine improvement on technique. Part of it mostly aids just competitive fencing (which I'm not terribly interested in pursuing).

So it's a mixed bag. But in my experience, the SCAers do have as much an eye on effectiveness as any other group. And given that the parameters of SCA combat are broader than those of foil fencing, you can have a lot of fun at it.

In our group in college, they did something they called 'duello.' I don't know how common it is. Hell, it could've been something they made up. (The group did have plans to recreate scenes from Highlander across campus. Bump into another member of the fencing club, scream "there can be only one", and go at it.)

Anyway, in duello, you could use your empty hand to check, parry, tie up, etc. (Aw yeah!) You could thrust or slash (using the epee). And if you got hit in the arm, you couldn't use it. If it was your weapon arm, you switched to your other hand. If it was the other hand, you lost use of it to check and parry. And if it was the leg, you sat down, etc.

Probably not "realistic", but an interesting twist.

In any event, I'd recommend it Sevenstar. In my first bout, sabre v. sabre, I zoned away from the blade (inside triangle footwork), swept the blade with my blade (inside parry), backhand witik to the underarm (in sabre, the back top third of the blade is considered bladed), turned over into a slash and thrust to the torso. In competition fencing, I don't know how much of that I would have been allowed to do. But it was perfect for what I wanted. To do eskrima with a sword.


Stuart B.

[Oso]

Seven, I'd be worried about more then authenticity with the SCA folks. If you think TCMA folks think their shiat don't stink don't get to talking to a SCA guy that thinks his mock combat IS combat.

Ap, two anecdotes on staff thrusting:

A - a guy I was sparring with incorrectly blocked a thrust to the chest into his face. luckily it caught him on the bone above the eye instead of the eye itself but it still swelled the eye shut for a week.

B- I took a staff thrust to the foot, yes the foot. specifically the hollow on the inside of the ankle just below the spur of the ankle bone and a little back towards the heel. don't know what kinda meridian mumbo jumbo chi point that is but it hurt like hell and my vision went to multicolored stars and i fell down on the floor grabbing my ankle and rolling around for several minutes.

don't know squat about fencing though. there's a guy in town but I need to add another 2 practices a week like I need a hole in the head.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Helio would own a fencer.

Granted. But Helio is surprisingly gentle for his size.

(That joke doesn't work as well when the guy is diminuitive, does it.)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by yenhoi
How do fencers practice when not fencing?

Lots of lunging? Escala practice? Box patterns of some sort?

How do they practice riposte?

Any mis-matched weapon training? Sabre vs Epee?

I probably have more.

Thanks!


:D

Interesting question. In my limited experience, they'll practice some footwork as a warmup. Then suit up and go at it. Live, resisting opponent, and all that.

I'm sure there are lots more drills than I've seen. I only did 8 weeks of classwork. And now, we free spar. But I daresay there are drills similar to box pattern. We certainly learned some very simple counter-for-counter type drills.

Mismatched weapon training? Not in this group, I shouldn't think. They're competitive. So they mostly train for that ruleset.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

A - a guy I was sparring with incorrectly blocked a thrust to the chest into his face. luckily it caught him on the bone above the eye instead of the eye itself but it still swelled the eye shut for a week.

B- I took a staff thrust to the foot, yes the foot. specifically the hollow on the inside of the ankle just below the spur of the ankle bone and a little back towards the heel. don't know what kinda meridian mumbo jumbo chi point that is but it hurt like hell and my vision went to multicolored stars and i fell down on the floor grabbing my ankle and rolling around for several minutes.

Okay. Perhaps my take on staffwork isn't as asenine as I thought it was. Good news for me.

:)

[Oso]

hmm, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, I was trying to point out examples where staff thrusts did damage.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Oso
hmm, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, I was trying to point out examples where staff thrusts did damage.

You only misunderstood me because I was doing a p!ss poor job of explaining myself.

I was saying that I thought a lot of fencing theory would port over well to staffwork.

Then I dismissed my own idea based on the observation that it involved little more than thrusting with a longstaff and that it seemed kinda ineffectual.

Now that you've pointed out that it can actually be really damaging, I'm back to my original theory that fencing would port over well to staffwork.

So I get to be right and wrong. Hakuna matata. :)

[Pork Chop]

sorry ap....
can't.....resist.....


it's all fun and games untill someone stabs you in the pooper with a longstaff....

[Shaolinlueb]

does fencing have a lot of drills to be quick on our feet?

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by BMore Banga
sorry ap....
can't.....resist.....


it's all fun and games untill someone stabs you in the pooper with a longstaff....

I can't win.

I should just be thankful this wasn't a thread about tactical shotguns.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
does fencing have a lot of drills to be quick on our feet?

Absolutely. The footwork component is emphasized highly.

Just bear in mind that the footwork in competitive fencing also runs contrary to the advice that you'd receive from most boxing coaches and the like. In fencing, you can't really move from side to side very much. You advance and retreat on a single line.

But you get very good at it.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I've been meaning to go check out some classes, but the only people that teach it here are with the sca, and I kinda question what the quality would be... I can't pass judgement till I go check them out though, I suppose.

There's a lot of quality fencers in the SCA, but the period fencing isn't as entrenched in the organization as the stick combat is, so it's not as obvious who the best people are. It's certainly possible that there'll be very good instruction, though.


Originally posted by Oso
Seven, I'd be worried about more then authenticity with the SCA folks. If you think TCMA folks think their shiat don't stink don't get to talking to a SCA guy that thinks his mock combat IS combat.

Regional peculiarities aside, there are *******s in the SCA just like there are in TCMA and MMA.

SCA rec combat isn't /real/ weapon fighting, but it's likely as close as one can come without strapping on an actual claidhmore - and there's a lot of crossover with 'real' stickfighting.


Originally posted by apoweyn

Just bear in mind that the footwork in competitive fencing also runs contrary to the advice that you'd receive from most boxing coaches and the like. In fencing, you can't really move from side to side very much. You advance and retreat on a single line.

But you get very good at it.

That is one advantage of learning SCA-style period fencing rather than competitive fencing, for someone who is also doing other martial arts - period style allows lateral movement, which means you're not picking up conflicting habits as much.

[apoweyn]

That is one advantage of learning SCA-style period fencing rather than competitive fencing, for someone who is also doing other martial arts - period style allows lateral movement, which means you're not picking up conflicting habits as much.

Yeah, exactly.

[Oso]

Ap, ok.:)

FD (i just typed FT again, it's my fingers not me) my SCA experience was with Chapel Hill, NC and Boone, NC. So, I'll partially retract my aspersion to SCA in general. The folks I met were boobs.

And they wouldn't let me play unless I got all that armour :mad:
I told them I would lose my dexterity bonus if I put all that crap on. ;)


Regional peculiarities aside, there are *******s in the SCA just like there are in TCMA and MMA.

absolutely, almost said that myself.

[apoweyn]

And they wouldn't let me play unless I got all that armour
I told them I would lose my dexterity bonus if I put all that crap on.

LOL

Man, I love a good RPG reference.

[Oso]

:D

but it's true.

Studded leather and an 18 dex gives you and AC of 3.
You'd have to put banded armor on to get that low and then you're movement rate would be cut in half!
Fighters are stoopid:cool:



sorry about the rant on the SCA. I had a bit of a running argument with one of the guys in Boone. couldn't prove anything because they wouldn't let me spar unless I got armor. I wasn't going to drop a couple hundred just to prove a good staffman would beat a sword and shield.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Oso
sorry about the rant on the SCA.

S'okay; you had a bad experience. Beats the usual rants on TCMA and MMA. :D I just didn't want it to get generalized into a bad impression of the SCA in general. It varies a lot by region and clan.


I had a bit of a running argument with one of the guys in Boone. couldn't prove anything because they wouldn't let me spar unless I got armor.

Well, you can't spar without armor because they're swinging bare rattan as hard as they can at each other. It's a safety issue.



I wasn't going to drop a couple hundred just to prove a good staffman would beat a sword and shield.

A good anything can beat anything else. If I were going against a good sword-and-board-er, though, a staff wouldn't be my first choice.

[Oso]

S'okay; you had a bad experience. Beats the usual rants on TCMA and MMA. I just didn't want it to get generalized into a bad impression of the SCA in general. It varies a lot by region and clan.

you're right. ever heard of the Cimmerian league or something close to that? they had a training facility somewhere near Nashville. Trained you to be a knight, basically. thought seriously about applying once after a bad break up. now I can't find any reference to them.


Well, you can't spar without armor because they're swinging bare rattan as hard as they can at each other. It's a safety issue.

I know. Wasn't worried with this group and they talked a lot of smack. you know, now that I think back on it, the head guy started the whole thing by making disparaging remarks about the school I was going to...so I offered to spar with him. Wouldn't do it unless I got into the whole bit. hmmm, now that sounds familiar;)



A good anything can beat anything else. If I were going against a good sword-and-board-er, though, a staff wouldn't be my first choice.

mebbe not, but since I was basically defending the honor of my school (sounds silly I know, be he was talking ****, I wasn't) I wasn't going to use a weapon set I wasn't trained in.

now, staff against a REAL sword and sheild guy...hell no. but against this nimrods rattan stick and board, yep. all day long.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Oso


you're right. ever heard of the Cimmerian league or something close to that?


Not really, but I was never very active in the SCA; no time for it. When I fought at all it was usually in Markland, which has a somewhat different set of rules than the SCA (but a lot of members in common).

[Oso]

these guys weren't SCA.
they seemed to be independant.
they taught mounted combat and went around to renfairs and did the jousting events.

no matter.

[ZIM]

ever heard of the Cimmerian league or something close to that? they had a training facility somewhere near Nashville. Trained you to be a knight, basically. thought seriously about applying once after a bad break up. now I can't find any reference to them. They were Fly-by-Knights.







:ouch:

[Oso]

consider your self virtual smacked for that.




nicely done but it was still a pun.:D

[yenhoi]

Some good SCA threads (with sca people) on dogbrothers forum. Staff vs stick video too. ;)

What does SCA stand for, how do I find these types?

:confused:

[Oso]

Society for Creative Anachronism

Google "SCA" or the above and you'll find plenty I think.


funny, I'll take double stick vs. staff but staff vs. double stick....
not sure what that means...probably that my double stick sucks:D

time to go look at some stick vs. staff...

[Oso]

.......daaaammm, dem boyz is ha'd.

[yenhoi]

I like single stick but thats what I train with.

:eek:

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by yenhoi
I like single stick but thats what I train with.

:eek:

I'd do single stick vs. staff, but then I'm awful with a longstaff. I'd take knife vs. staff too (though I might feel differently after facing someone better with the staff than I am).

[yenhoi]

Blade > all else.

Naturally. ;)

:eek:

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Blade > all else.

Naturally. ;)

:eek:

In terms of efficacy, yeah. But when I'm being absolutely honest with myself, I don't know that I've got it in me to draw a blade on someone else. I can say all I want about life-or-death, defending my loved ones, etc. But I still don't know.

And that's something I should probably know before I pull out the balisong. Know what I mean?


Stuart B.

[yenhoi]

Absolutly.

Its just guns make so much noise.

You dont have to use the sharp part of a balisong, either.

;)

[apoweyn]

LOL

True. I suppose I could just bludgeon the guy with the handles.

[Oso]

Staff rules All !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



;)


anyone ever read Piers Anthony's "Battle Circle" ?

post apocalyptic sci fi where a society is built around the 'battle circle' and six predetermined weapon types. staff and double sticks being two of them. not that great a read but somewhat interesting dialogue on the merits of the different weapons versus each other.

[apoweyn]

Staff rules All !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not the way I do it. ;)

Haven't heard of Battle Circle. May have to check it out though. Sounds entertaining.

[yenhoi]

Most balisong have a neat guard you can smash things with, strangly similar to a palm stick. Its got a puno too, unless you have some giant ass hands.

Ive heard that traditional fencing teaches stick and dagger, shield, and flexible weapons (like cloak or whip.) Some old threads on this forum, maybe..... I think Gene Ching is a fencing dude.

:eek:

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Most balisong have a neat guard you can smash things with, strangly similar to a palm stick. Its got a puno too, unless you have some giant ass hands.

And then there's the 'vente nueve', which looks more like a novelty item than an actual weapon.


Ive heard that traditional fencing teaches stick and dagger, shield, and flexible weapons (like cloak or whip.) Some old threads on this forum, maybe..... I think Gene Ching is a fencing dude.

Yep, that's right. Sword and dagger (the origins of FMA's espada y daga, presumably), sword and shield, cloak and dagger, etc. That sort of thing, though, you really are looking for an organization more like HACA than a fencing school though. I think most fencing schools nowadays (though I'm not sure) are going to teach exclusively the competitive weaponry.


Stuart B.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Blade > all else.

Naturally. ;)

:eek:

Blade > Blade II

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by FatherDog


Blade > Blade II

Ya think?! I loved em both. But if I had to choose, I think Blade 2 would choke Blade.

[yenhoi]

Blade is more of a badass in blade then in blade II, but blade II has those oh-so-excellent touched up fight scenes, WWE style.

:eek:

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by apoweyn


Ya think?! I loved em both. But if I had to choose, I think Blade 2 would choke Blade.

I thought they were both enjoyable movies (Blade in particular gets props for doing all the wire-fu and special camera angle effects the first Matrix was getting geeks all wet over, before the Matrix). Blade > Blade II because Blade has far fewer moments where you go "What the ****? What? Why would he do that? Even if that were true, it makes no sense!"

[apoweyn]

True. But I loves me some Guillermo del Toro. And I thought that Nomak was a much more compelling villain than Stephen Dorff's Deacon Frost was.

But I hear ya.

[yenhoi]

Swordfight with the fem vampire was hot.

:D

[Chang Style Novice]

Didja see in the extra features where they had some scenes with him wearing a platinum blond wig in addition to the nosferatu makeup? Boy, am I glad they changed their mind about that!

Anyway, I saw a preview for Guillermo Del Toro's Hellboy when I watched Bad Santa last week, and...I dunno. Most of what I love about Hellboy is Mignola's art, and although GDT has a great ability to get his movies looking right, it's just not the same without that great nervous pen line.

Anyway, you kids go back to talking about fencing now. All I know about fencing is where to get rid of some stolen car stereos.

[apoweyn]

Can't be any worse than the blond mullet wig they've got Taimak wearing for the live stage production of Road House. Where the hell was the "no" man on that one?!

I just saw the Hellboy preview myself. I've never read Hellboy, but the flick looks entertaining. And if nothing else, we should thank Guillermo del Toro for keeping Ron Perlman off the streets.

Rumour has it that GDT wants to do a big production of Lovecraft's Beyond the Mountains of Madness. And on that day, I will die a happy geek.


Stuart B.

[Chang Style Novice]

http://www.hellboy.com

Waste time at work while reading Hellboy online comics!

A public service announcement brought to you by the Make Dreams Come True for Geeks Foundation.

GDT and HPL, eh? Intriguing...

[apoweyn]

Aha! I'll definitely be perusing this site when I've got the GREs out of the way.

[FatherDog]

I've read (and own) all the Hellboy stuff, and I'm quite looking forward to the movie. I do love Mignola's art, but short of doing an animated feature, you're not getting that. What they are getting is the correct /look/, though. Perlman was born to play Hellboy the same way Dafoe was born to play the Green Goblin. And Mignola's been heavily involved with the movie production. To the point that Guillermo's basically going to him every day saying "Does this look right?"

Interestingly, DelToro's said that if the movie does well, they may be optioning an animated series for Adult Swim.

[apoweyn]

And then there's Blade 3: Trinity.

[Oso]

since this thread has gone to pieces...

read "The Stand" in 1981. Saw "Streets of Fire" a couple of years later and just knew that if they did a movie of "The Stand" that Willem Defoe had to be The Walking Dude. No such luck tho.

[yenhoi]

I wish they would do a movie of The Mote in Gods Eye

That would just be wow.

:eek:

[yenhoi]

Or LN's Ringworld.... but it would prolly get all messed up like Starship Troopers did.

:eek:

[GeneChing]

I think Gene Ching is a fencing dude.
Guilty as charged. I fencing NCAA for SJSU as captain of the Epee squad under the late great Maestro Michael D'saro. I also earned two provost master degrees, one from the governing body of US fencing masters (USFMCA if memory serves) and one from the US Army (seriously, I was one of the last to go through that program).

But this thread is not really about fencing anymore, is it?

[Oso]

whoa, way to go Gene!

yenhoi...'Mote...' was an awesome book. Ringworld is good but not the best. Have you read "Legacy of Hearot" ? Niven, Pournelle and Steven Barnes...hella good, maybe one of the best and would make an awesome movie.

WHICH, BTW, IF NONE OF YOU FOOLS HAVE READ ANY STEVEN BARNES YET...I MIGHT JUST GIVE UP TRYING TO PROMOTE HIM

Streetlethal
Gorgon Child
Firedance

Blood Brothers

Dream Park (w/ Larry Niven)

among others...

[Ky-Fi]

US Army fencing program? Cool, I didn't even know they had one that recently. Hey Gene, have you checked out the book "The Secret History of the Sword--Adventures in Ancient Martial Arts" by J. Christoph Amberger? He's got a couple related chapters---He does a review of General Patton's 1913 saber system, and he also reprints a WWII manual of what Allied soldiers should do if they encounter sword-wielding Axis officers. I would highly recommend this book for anyone interested in swords----he destroys a lot of myths, makes a lot of controversial points, and covers an incredibly wide time-line of sword history. And, he personally fought sharp Mensur duels in Germany in the late 80's. One of the points he made that I thought was quite interesting was his belief that the stress and fear of actual combat can negate 50-80% of a martial artists' training.

Speaking of Epee, I just started taking that a bit more seriously--getting some real lessons instead of just bouting. I'm not sure if it will be my cup of tea. With foil and the right-of-way, I feel like I have time to plan my attacks, but with Epee I just get poked in the godd&mn forearm before I know what's happened. :)

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by GeneChing
But this thread is not really about fencing anymore, is it?

Actually, I was planning to steer the discussion through a series of movies that would end with 'Circle of Steel', and thus perform the difficult 'triple-half-gainer-reverse-threadjack' maneuver.

[yenhoi]

Id like to know about fencing footwork outside of competitive fencing. Maybe more details about the counter-for-counter drills.

I think ive read everything by Niven. Nothing recently, I havent had time to read that stuff since college started.

:confused:

[Oso]

yenhoi, Niven's not my most favorite but I've read the first 3 of the ringworld series, 'mote...' and a few others.

the 'fools' bit wasn't directed at you personally. :)

Steven Barnes is just my personal crusade. A very under appreciated author. If you have time to squeeze a book in on break or something, I highly recommend "The Legacy of Hearot". Quite a read and one of the scariest creatures I've ever read.

[yenhoi]

Ive recently read 3 books from something called "The Song of Fire and Ice."

Good Stuff.

Ill check it out. It is the holidays afterall!

:eek:

[apoweyn]

Ky Fi and Gene Ching,


Speaking of Epee, I just started taking that a bit more seriously--getting some real lessons instead of just bouting. I'm not sure if it will be my cup of tea. With foil and the right-of-way, I feel like I have time to plan my attacks, but with Epee I just get poked in the godd&mn forearm before I know what's happened.

Is there no right of way in epee? I understand that there's not with sabre, since it's such a free for all. Right of way is the part I'm having a hard time getting used to. My feeling is that if you're stabbed, you're stabbed. But I guess that's less useful a mindset if you're trying to regulate a sport and determine a winner.

[apoweyn]

Yenhoi,

Most of the footwork I've done so far wouldn't look all that new to you, I don't think. (But I daresay there's a lot I haven't seen myself.)

Advancing and retreating is done (not surprisingly) as it is in much of JKD. Advancing: Lead foot steps forward, rear foot steps forward. Retreating: Rear foot steps back, lead foot steps back.

There's no sidestepping that I've seen, because you're staying on a narrow strip.

Then there's the lunge. You pretty much know what that is, I expect. Sword and arm move first, then long step for the lunge.

The rest (at least at my low level) is a question of combination. Two advances and a lunge. A retreat, advance, lunge. Etc.


Stuart B.

[ZIM]

I suppose this thread could be taken even further afield (http://www.thehaca.com/spotlight/NotesLEJEUDELAHACHE.htm)

[yenhoi]

In traditional fencing, would you also learn to circle?

:confused:

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by yenhoi
In traditional fencing, would you also learn to circle?

:confused:

I'm almost sure of it.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by ZIM
I suppose this thread could be taken even further afield (http://www.thehaca.com/spotlight/NotesLEJEUDELAHACHE.htm)

Heh. There's actually a thread kicking around on one of the forums about this very question. Whether there are styles that teach the two-handed axe. If I come across it again, I'll know where to point him.

Cheers.


Stuart

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by apoweyn
Ky Fi and Gene Ching,



Is there no right of way in epee? I understand that there's not with sabre, since it's such a free for all. Right of way is the part I'm having a hard time getting used to. My feeling is that if you're stabbed, you're stabbed. But I guess that's less useful a mindset if you're trying to regulate a sport and determine a winner.

Actually, there is right of way in sabre. But no, there's no right of way in epee. Right of way was originally developed to simulate real combat; it was meant to discourage going for "double touch". Without right of way (as in epee) if you see your opponent making an attack on you, you can respond with an attack without worrying about defense as long as you get there first. In a real fight situation, of course, this is suicide; you'd wind up impaling your opponent as he impales you. Right of way was designed to simulate this, and force fencers to defend themselves against 'lethal' attacks before attempting a rejoinder.

Epee has no right of way because epee fencing derives from a period when duels were not usually fought to the death, but to first blood. This is also why epee has no target restrictions, whereas foil and sabre restrict themselves to "lethal" areas.

[apoweyn]

Huh. Okay, now I'm interested in right of way. Before, I was thinking of it solely as a convention for determining who scored first. But as a training exercise, that makes more sense.

Cheers.

Sabre does have right of way. Okay. Now I know.

Nobody in college mentioned right of way to me, so it's a new idea across the board. Thanks for filling me in.


Stuart B.

[Oso]

Whether there are styles that teach the two-handed axe.

Lum Br Jak system by Paul Bun Yan

[apoweyn]

More axe teachers, eh? And to think, the guy was stuck with 'glima' until now.

:)

[No_Know]

apoweyne, Staff-fighting seems fencing-ish. The front hand is a guide. The rear hand pulls the staff through the guide hand redirects the staff tip as one would a pool cue.. pulling and pushing can avoid parries. The side of the staff deflects incomming.

Sidestepping in ~fencing...The point seems who's best at same line combat. To win at this is distance-deception. Stepping should be short-ish. With elbow at ribsweight on rear leg with a short stance but bent front leg. To appear weighted (deceive that you can't move back). From here, shift weight forward while keeping same leg bend(for the most part. Or parry keeping your arm short so that your true reach cannot be gagued (excpet guess~)

Advance with front on center; short lunge to head; stepp rear foot off center (three to six inches); when you defend and yield back, not on your rear leg which would turn you;rear from front leg to make it seem as though you have both feet on center. Keep sword hilt on center. Quick pull of sword hand then shift to side ****hest from opponent (three or four inches) while bringing-up rear foot still off center (not passing heel of the front foot). Weight shift forward withOut stepyou are now thrusting off center. Hopefully this helps, and is an advantage you can learn to take.

Making basics edgey makes Masters. If you are studying lunge then play with distance of step, weight when landing, parry when landing/or after hit/or recovering from parried attempt.And elbow extension with each movement, hold the thrust until after the weightshift.

As for parrying, short power. Whacking with little effort to make a way clear to thrust.

Push/pull do this drill to improve I might think.

[Oso]

No_Know, how was the trip down south?

[Ky-Fi]

Originally posted by apoweyn
Ky Fi and Gene Ching,



Is there no right of way in epee? I understand that there's not with sabre, since it's such a free for all. Right of way is the part I'm having a hard time getting used to. My feeling is that if you're stabbed, you're stabbed. But I guess that's less useful a mindset if you're trying to regulate a sport and determine a winner.

Yep, FatherDog answered this well. There is ROW in foil and saber, and not in epee. And yes, it's kind of six of one, half-dozen of the other as far as which is more "realistic". Epee is realistic in that every touch, anywhere on the body, is acknowledged. Foil and saber could be considered more realistic because they only award strong, forceful attacks to vital areas. (I"m not getting into the "flick" :))And, although sport fencing is based on real combat, and a lot of it could translate to real combat (speed, timing, blade control, conditioning, reflexes, combat mindset, strategy), in the end you're learning a sport, not a traditional martial art. But I have to say, I've played a lot of sports, and I don't think I've ever found anything as satisfying as landing a perfectly timed, on target, fully extended lunge at full speed against an opponent who's trying as hard as he can to stop you. Well, OK, OK---the kid was 12 years old---but I'm tellin' you I really kicked a$$, and I'm sure I would have done equally well against a 13 year-old. :)

[joedoe]

I found right of way the hardest thing to get in fencing, as well as resisting the urge to use all 4 limbs in attack :)

[apoweyn]

Thanks Ky Fi.

In my defense (if it's my use of the flick you're referring to), it certainly wouldn't have done much damage. Even with a real sabre. But it was one of those freebie shots that you take en route to your real shot. I kinda feel that way about witik (flicking) attacks in general. Not a show stopper. But easy enough to stick into a motion you're already making. And good for creating openings, breaking rhythm, etc.

If you're not referring to me, then forget what I just said. I'll follow suit.

:)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by joedoe
I found right of way the hardest thing to get in fencing, as well as resisting the urge to use all 4 limbs in attack :)

Believe me, the urge to land a quick shin kick is strong. :)

[GeneChing]

Maestro Charles Selberg used to do this Right of Way challenge. He would face off with you with a live blade, take right of way, then bet his entire estate that you wouldn't lunge into his extending weapon. He never lost. He did it to me once and let me tell you, there's nothing like looking down the point of a sword in the hands of a master. Right of way is very logical. It replaces one of the factors that is missing in modern fencing - genuine fear of death. No one in their right mind would attack onto an extended weapon with out removing the blade.

And I did read Amberger's book. I liked Cohen's By the Sword a little better. Amberger had a lot of greasy facts, the underbelly of fencing if you will. Cohen had a real solid writing tone, being a former publisher and all. He developed more suspense for a more readible work, IMO.

The U.S. Army had a program through it's ROTC progrma at SJSU, primarily the work of Maitre William Gaugler, who loved everything traditional and found more support with the Army than the Phys. Ed. department. It was a unique program, specifically designed to train fencing masters, but it eventually collasped due to modern times. I was one of the last ones certified by it.

[yenhoi]

http://www.sageartsunlimited.com/readingroom/lib_fencing.html

:eek:

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Ky-Fi
(I"m not getting into the "flick" :))

DIE, FLICKING *******S! IF YOU WANTED TO USE A WHIP, YOU SHOULD HAVE BOUGHT ONE!

Ahem. :D

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by FatherDog


DIE, FLICKING *******S! IF YOU WANTED TO USE A WHIP, YOU SHOULD HAVE BOUGHT ONE!

Ahem. :D

Don't get me started on the whip. Guy down in Richmond tried to teach me the whip once. Meh.

[GeneChing]

Check out American Fencers supply (http://www.amfence.com). I worked there for several years, making swords in the Armoury. Their the best at what they do (although their best when their surly). If you want something about fencing, contact them. Ask for Maestro Yeti and sure, you can tell him Gene sent you.

[Ky-Fi]

Originally posted by FatherDog


DIE, FLICKING *******S! IF YOU WANTED TO USE A WHIP, YOU SHOULD HAVE BOUGHT ONE!

Ahem. :D

I have mixed feelings about the flick. On the one hand, I don't personally use it because I feel it's martially unrealistic, and while I acknowledge that there are other aspects of the sport that are also martially unrealistic, this just goes too far for me. On the other hand, coming from a CMA background, I sort of think that it's like facing a flexible weapon, and I should have a high enough skill level with my sword to be able to defend against it---so I don't have a problem when it's used against me. Also, I have more respect for experienced fencers who have all the basics down pat, and just use the flick occasionally as one more technique. What I really hate is younger fencers who try to flick before they've learned basic point control and the traditional attacks and defenses. A couple months ago I literally almost had two fingers broken on my left (non-sword) hand from a wildly off-target flick from an intermediate fencer.

[apoweyn]

Hang on. So the flick really is a fencing maneuver?

I thought it just referred to my efforts to do a witik with a sabre.

Hmm...

[Ky-Fi]

apoweyn,

Yes, the "flick" (or whip) is a big controversy in sport fencing these days as far as foil is concerned. As the blades have gotten more flexible for safety reasons over the last few decades, it's now possible to whip the point so drastically that it goes around the traditional parries, and the point still hits first(and depresses, if electric). It's frowned upon by many traditionalists, but it's not illegal and is fairly widely used in competition. Sometimes it's kind of subtle, but sometimes it gets ridiculous when people score flicks to the back of the opponent's shoulder or what have you.

[apoweyn]

Huh. I'll have to look out for that.

Cheers Ky Fi.

[Vash]

Originally posted by yenhoi
I wish they would do a movie of The Mote in Gods Eye

That would just be wow.

:eek:
I'd like to see a Niven/Purnell (sp?) Inferno movie. Bille the Kid meets Il Duce. Party on.

[GeneChing]

A good fencer, traditional or not, can deal with the flick. It's part of the modern game, like dealing with the body cord. There have even been specific modifications to cope with whipover in electric saber. Today, a lot of so-called 'traditionalists' use the flick as another excuse for not getting winning results.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by GeneChing
A good fencer, traditional or not, can deal with the flick. It's part of the modern game, like dealing with the body cord. There have even been specific modifications to cope with whipover in electric saber. Today, a lot of so-called 'traditionalists' use the flick as another excuse for not getting winning results.

I plan on blaming society. Or Cthulhu.

[Chang Style Novice]

I plan on blaming societyAp - That's bulsh!t. You're a white suburban punk just like me.:D

[Oso]

he's worse, that's why he's blaming Cthulu as well.



speaking of Cthulu, anyone else think last nights episode of Southpark was hilarious?

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by No_Know
apoweyne, Staff-fighting seems fencing-ish. The front hand is a guide. The rear hand pulls the staff through the guide hand redirects the staff tip as one would a pool cue.. pulling and pushing can avoid parries. The side of the staff deflects incomming.

Makes sense. Lack of experience means that I'm basically from the 'hold it in the middle and flail' school of longstaff fighting. But I picked up a couple of padded longstaffs recently. So perhaps I'll have to recruit some of you fine folks to help me experiment later.


Sidestepping in ~fencing...The point seems who's best at same line combat. To win at this is distance-deception. Stepping should be short-ish. With elbow at ribsweight on rear leg with a short stance but bent front leg. To appear weighted (deceive that you can't move back). From here, shift weight forward while keeping same leg bend(for the most part. Or parry keeping your arm short so that your true reach cannot be gagued (excpet guess~)

Exactly. There's a lot of deception in terms of timing, distance, reach, etc. Just the tactics for getting around the opponent's weapon in such tight quarters are amazing to me. As much as I want to move laterally, the focus you're forced to put on back and forth in fencing really lends you insight into timing and wotnot.


Advance with front on center; short lunge to head; stepp rear foot off center (three to six inches); when you defend and yield back, not on your rear leg which would turn you;rear from front leg to make it seem as though you have both feet on center. Keep sword hilt on center. Quick pull of sword hand then shift to side ****hest from opponent (three or four inches) while bringing-up rear foot still off center (not passing heel of the front foot). Weight shift forward withOut stepyou are now thrusting off center. Hopefully this helps, and is an advantage you can learn to take.

Oh it helps.


Making basics edgey makes Masters. If you are studying lunge then play with distance of step, weight when landing, parry when landing/or after hit/or recovering from parried attempt.And elbow extension with each movement, hold the thrust until after the weightshift.

That's the nice thing about a limited skill set. You learn to manipulate tiny little variables that make all the difference.


As for parrying, short power. Whacking with little effort to make a way clear to thrust.

Push/pull do this drill to improve I might think.

The beat has become one of my favorite maneuvers. Gots to get my beat on.

Man, that sounds wrong.


Stuart B.

[MasterKiller]

speaking of Cthulu, anyone else think last nights episode of Southpark was hilarious? I'm not going to live in a 3rd world country with all those conformists.

[Chang Style Novice]

Repo Man would choke out South Park.

Well, actually I guess it's pretty close...to close to call, even.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Ap - That's bulsh!t. You're a white suburban punk just like me.:D

You don't know the first thing about me, pal. I grew up on the mean streets of Annapolis. I had this friend, Trevor, who got killed just 'cause some punk wanted his docksiders! Nevermind what happens when you wander over to the other side of the yacht club wearing the wrong colour sweater around your neck.

D*mn.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Oso
he's worse, that's why he's blaming Cthulu as well.



speaking of Cthulu, anyone else think last nights episode of Southpark was hilarious?



Cthulhu was on South Park?

[Chang Style Novice]

I'm glad I tortured you!

[Oso]

only in that Cthulu is gothic flavored horror, or is in my head anyway, and they ripped on the goth lifestyle last night.

but, if I remember correctly, they did have a Cthulu specific monster on there some episodes back.








btw, can you explain the difference between witik and abinico.
when you are saying flick and witik, I'm thinking a short abinico.

[apoweyn]

An abaniko is a specific sort of witik. Witik just means 'flick.' Perhaps not literally, but in essence.

Abaniko means 'fan.' You know what it looks like, but for the viewers at home, it's essentially a rotation of the wrist so that the stick hits the target first on one side then on the other. The arc of the stick resembles a fan.

Sometimes it's called abaniko witik, but that's kinda redundant, so it's usually just abaniko. (I can't really imagine how that maneuver would work without flicking.)

A backhand witik would be a flicking motion of the stick, so that the point of the stick goes around a block and hits the target (as opposed to a slash, which would get blocked). Forehand witik would be the same deal.

I'm sure there are various ways to use the witik with different strikes. But the net effect is that by turning the wrist, you make contact with the point of the stick rather than the length of it.

And while it may be kind of a cheapy in fencing, it hurts like a mutha with a stick (as I'm sure you can attest).


Stuart B.

[Oso]

ok, so a witik would be a flick in any direction while the abanico is rotating around the forearm centerline perpendicularly. never heard the term witik in the Presas camp. but, I do love some abanico action.

so, bust this myth for me, I was told that each of the old tyme escrimadors would have their signature sequence that was how they won all their matches. We were taught Remy's, and I saw Remy demo it once. I still flail around with it regularly because myth or no, i think it's a pretty decent combination.

[yenhoi]

They each didnt, but there were 'patterns' attributed to familys and villages and islands just like in CMA Old China. When you study some patterns you notice they match up with themselves and others, and some patterns dont here or there. Some seem to be designed to defeat people locked into other patterns. I like kob-kob and pai-pai motions the best.

With watik, you still crash through anthing you touch down the line even if its just with the tip. Its all about the footwork and which ankle you twist with which arm.

Abanicos... I use them to transition between power strikes, into or out of the different ranges, specially into puno strikes and throws. Disarms seem to pop out of abanico motions more often then most others, but I havent found much other empty hand use.


:eek:

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Oso
ok, so a witik would be a flick in any direction while the abanico is rotating around the forearm centerline perpendicularly. never heard the term witik in the Presas camp. but, I do love some abanico action.

Yeah, exactly. Nice description of abaniko, by the way. I'm not really surprised that you hadn't heard the term. My teachers used witik instead of abaniko frequently. And we had to guess by context which they meant. *shrug* Peculiar, isn't it.


so, bust this myth for me, I was told that each of the old tyme escrimadors would have their signature sequence that was how they won all their matches. We were taught Remy's, and I saw Remy demo it once. I still flail around with it regularly because myth or no, i think it's a pretty decent combination.

I can only bust that myth in so far that I've never heard it before. Granted, my teachers were a generation or two down from Presas. So their experience was more stick sparring than actual stick fighting. But in my talk with GM Cacoy Canete, he never mentioned such a thing.

He did mention devising the curving strikes that went around blocks. And how he used those to win several matches against other eskrimadors. But not specific sequences.

Now, there are certainly specific sequences in terms of the twelve angles and various sinawali. GM Canete's twelve angles are different from my first teachers' (the Patalinghug family) twelve angles, despite both being Doce Pares.

Same with sinawali. There are some common patterns. And then some more personalized ones. As yenhoi mentions, there's kob kob, for example. That was the hallmark of... lemme see if I can get this right... Villabrille? Floro Villabrille? (Is that right, yenhoi?)

But specific sequences of strikes for each eskrimador? Not in my experience. I'm sure individuals have favorite combos, just like I enjoy the jab-cross-round kick. But I'd never known them to be particular codified.


Stuart B.

[yenhoi]

Villabrille siniwalli is like all kob-kob yep. Very different from 'standard' siniwalli (Lacosta..)

If you are familiar... villabrille "switches" and comes from a closed position. His abenecedario sequences are often one sided also. It really _seems_ that it could have been developed to _defeat_ other patterns, but I doubt it.

:eek:

[apoweyn]

John Lacoste. That's the other one I was trying to remember.

Thanks.

[yenhoi]

A list can probably be found somewhere around here: www.Inosanto.com

:)

"Standard" (Lacosta) siniwali and abenecedario is somewhere in the student section here: www.SageArtsUnlimited.com

:eek:

Buy sticks here: www.martialartsmart.com

:p

...and knives here: www.mnkali.com

:cool:

[apoweyn]

Inosanto's book on FMA has a nice section on some of his teachers as well.

So Ky Fi, Gene Ching, Fatherdog...

Do fencers (either competitive or traditional) have the sort of signature sequences that Oso brought up?

[GeneChing]

Interesting. Is that why I've heard the foil-like cane that Bruce Lee fights Danny Inosanto with in Game of Death (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/992003.html) called a wik-tik stick? I always wondered about that. You know, Bruce Lee based a lot of JKD on fencing theory - he was a fencer himself, a regional champ, no less. Also, some attribute portions of the Philipino arts to western fencing due to the Spanish influence - like a reactionary art, like Aikido evolved from a reaction to counter sword techniques.

[apoweyn]

Huh. I didn't know that's what the stick was called. But yeah, if I had to guess, I'd say that's why.

Actually, the influence of fencing on eskrima is precisely why I approached fencing in the first place. Even the name eskrima is taken from the Spanish word for fencing (esgrima).


Stuart B.

[Oso]

I didn't get very many of the Filipino names. Arnis was just a sideline study for me for about 5 years.

Presas stated goal with "Modern Arnis" was to make it more approachable. He created forms/katas. I feel they were fine as they were basically the sinewalis, striking angles, deflections and disarms strung together. We learned and drilled them individually as well as in the forms. Not sure how many total there were but I learned 3 empty hand and 3 stick/knife sets.

Presas' 'signature' sequence was: a strike directed at the opponents stick hand>>clockwise abanico>>counter clockwise abanico>>then a strike that started by by retracting the entire arm a little bit from the ccw abanico, rotating the stick clockwise back to a six o'clock position and then striking upwards from 6 ot 12.
(this is from your perspecive as the attacker) the goal was to crash through their stick, abanico both sides of the hand and then blast it from the bottom again. hope that made sense.

[apoweyn]

My first teachers went through something similar. They created forms for each belt level. But I wasn't very keen on the forms. I didn't think they really bore enough relation to the actual performance of the techniques.

We didn't have empty-hand forms either. Single stick, double stick, and stick and dagger.

Nice combo. I certainly like the sequences that start with pummeling the hand on the way in. You've got to get past it anyway. Might as well mangle it. I'm a big fan of the redondo to the hand or wrist myself. (Sort of a whipping circular attack.)

[yenhoi]

Oso: sounds similar to a "florette" and then a "draw."

Either off and inward or backhand watik, latik or redondo (or even a deflection or block... same motions) - watik or abanico the stick onto the guys neck/shoulder then insert grab and throw or choke. Larry Hartsell favorite (among others.)

:eek:

[Oso]

Ap, by themselves those forms wouldn't have been enough. Combined with all the two man drilling they were another way to look at it all. Despite my inability to ever get a polished look to my forms, I do like playing them.

yenhoi: cool. If I can ever get my stupid camera to work consistantly I'll shoot that sequence and give it to Ap to put up.
Have you worked personally with LH or any of his students? Met of guy who claimed to have been a student of LH in Charlotte back in the early to mid 90's. Guy named Kevin. He was good. Popped me several times that day.

[apoweyn]

Oso,


Ap, by themselves those forms wouldn't have been enough. Combined with all the two man drilling they were another way to look at it all. Despite my inability to ever get a polished look to my forms, I do like playing them.

Absolutely. And I had no complaints with the bulk of my training at that school either. It was just those particular forms that seemed geared more for flash than substance.

Or perhaps I'm just being cynical. *shrug*

And if you get that sequence filmed, yeah, send it on over. :)

[apoweyn]

Oso,


Ap, by themselves those forms wouldn't have been enough. Combined with all the two man drilling they were another way to look at it all. Despite my inability to ever get a polished look to my forms, I do like playing them.

Absolutely. And I had no complaints with the bulk of my training at that school either. It was just those particular forms that seemed geared more for flash than substance.

Or perhaps I'm just being cynical. *shrug*

And if you get that sequence filmed, yeah, send it on over. :)

[yenhoi]

Oso: If you count a 2-day seminar, mexican dinner, and a couple beers, but my teacher is a LH exponent (14 years.)

:eek:

[Oso]

Ap, will do...don't anyone buy the Panasonic DV-203.


yenhoi, thanks. just wondering, would like to catch up with Kevin if he was still in the Charlotte area.

ya'll have a good weekend.

[Ky-Fi]

Originally posted by apoweyn
Inosanto's book on FMA has a nice section on some of his teachers as well.

So Ky Fi, Gene Ching, Fatherdog...

Do fencers (either competitive or traditional) have the sort of signature sequences that Oso brought up?

I'm not sure I completely understand the "signature sequences"---I'm thinking these are complex attack patterns that depend on an anticipated defensive response pattern from the opponent?

Ive only been fencing about 2 years, but from my experience I would say it's not used to that degree. As far as complex patterns of attack, I think in fencing they're sometimes referred to as "intentions". For instance, if I'm just planning on hitting the guy with my lunge, then that's a "first intention" attack. If I lunge, plan on him parrying, and then plan to disengage under his parry and hit, then that's a "second intention" attack. And likewise, you can get up to 3rd, 4th and 5th intention attacks, with all kinds of complex moves. It's kind of like chess, and it is good to be able to keep mentally ahead of your opponent, but also, the more complex your premeditated attacks are, the greater the chance that things won't go as you planned. The game is so fast, people can all react slightly differently, your timing or his timing might not be what you expected---there's just so many variables that it's impossible to predict the exchanges with complete accuracy. Don't quote me on this, but I believe I read that Aldo Nadi (considered the best fencer of the 20th century) said that he usually always hit with no more than 2 or 3 intentions.

Of course everybody has favorite moves or combos or techniques that work better for them, but the more you use something, the more your opponents can recognize it and counter it. I fence at kind of a small club, and I fence a lot of the same people over and over. I know that any new pattern that I come up with that's effective has a lifespan of about half an hour :). I think having a lot of techniques and combos that you're comfortable with and to be able to use those unpredictably works well in sport fencing.

[yenhoi]

They are not attack or defense patterns, just patterns for sensitivity and other attributes. Getting used to things flying at you from different angles.

After you have a handle on these dead patterns, you learn alive patterns, like two-man sets sorta. Counter for counter drills... I attack and you counter, then I counter your counter, and you counter that...

:eek:

[Volcano Admim]

fencing is very kick, id do it if there was some avalible
cos it doent have the stressful stuff asian martial arts sometimes have
and its done sportively and its clearly only for sport, fun

[Oso]

the more complex your premeditated attacks are, the greater the chance that things won't go as you planned. The game is so fast, people can all react slightly differently, your timing or his timing might not be what you expected---there's just so many variables that it's impossible to predict the exchanges with complete accuracy.

beautiful, just beautiful.:)

true for any of this stuff we expound upon.

[No_Know]

Samurai showdownIII+, Bushido Blade, Soul of the Samurai could help your fencing comprehension.

Samurai Showdown III at least has a fencer French Femme Rose. Her guards and attacks might be insightful to you apoweyn.

Bushido Blade has rapier. And the different characters have different strengths and can move the blade more or less readily based at least on their build (strength). The have three guard levels and three general attack levels from each guard. Seeing the positions and steppings in and from these might be insightful to you. Also seeing a general the recoverytime for certain strokes after certain strokes-- shifting guard level might be a key to finding combinations in your fencing.

Soul of the Samurai is for timing cut range covered and recovery based on strength/blade weight ratios.

Thought notes:If their hand is fore of theirlead foot they will poke without necessarily stepping.

when they shift their torso back they might be preparing to attack. GO forward with a direct attack (perhaps partial stabwithdraw then full thrust (or a Lunge).

When thestep back even to go forward two steps their weight likely shifts Forward. Here Lunge.

Watch the body shaow and the feet more than the person. Act by these what you can. End Though notes of No_Know here.~

[apoweyn]

Okay, so fencing is pretty much as I figured. Not predetermined sequences, per say. Tactics, favoured combos, etc. Just like any other martial art.

I asked because I'd read a book in which the fencing master was working on creating the perfect sequence. Didn't make much sense to me. And it was a work of fiction, after all, but thought I'd ask all the same.

[GeneChing]

Traditional fencing did have something called "the universal parry." This was a so-called secret technique, kept 'en familia' at a given salle d'armes, and sold to fops who had the unfortunate fate of having to learn to fencing rather quickly prior to an upcoming duel. Typically, this was a combo, not unlike a boxing combo, a few strong techniques strung together that were easy-to-learn. And some schools did have rather ornate patterns. Probably the most ornate was a Spanish school which emlyed complex footwork patterns in a 'mystic circle' and even went so far as to calcuate astrological factors. It was very successful school during it's heyday, but eventually died out because it was too complex.

BTW, did someone mention Presas (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/tcep200.html)?

[Oso]

The problem with Bushido Blade was that it was TOO technically correct (not saying it was 100%) for a video game. I tried to break it out at a fight video game party (don't say it!!!) but Soul Caliber had just come out and BB was just plain boring next to all that.




Probably the most ornate was a Spanish school which emlyed complex footwork patterns in a 'mystic circle' and even went so far as to calcuate astrological factors. It was very successful school during it's heyday, but eventually died out because it was too complex.

heh, sounds like some kung fu to me;)

and let me know when those tapes hit the discount section.
it's a good deal for all those tapes but still $200+.

btw, from the couple I've seen, they are average to above average for a martial arts tape. better than most out there.

[LNBright]

This thread is the reason why I signed up here! lol...


I used to fence a bit...

When I was at Tennessee Tech, there were a few of us who founded a fencing club. A couple of the guys were from Knoxville, and had fenced with the folks at UT. One of them was also in SCA, so he drug a couple of buddies into it, too. They also worked at the radio station on campus, and so a couple of others in the radio station joined in, too.

There was an english professor who was an avid fencer, used to be competitive, so he jumped in to help us get started, being our faculty advisor and really helped us get a good solid foundation.

After doing it for a year, we had it added as a PE class. The professor was slick, tho', he had two sections created, one that was the general glass, and a second closed section in which the original ones of us were admitted for a bit more advanced work. Things really progressed well.

We actually started hosting tournaments with some of the other colleges in the southeast.... Vanderbilt, UT, Baylor... we also organized some workshops, even had our professor's fencing instructor, Charles Selberg, come out and do a pretty intensive workshop for us.

Although we all started with foil, we all pretty much had an interest in being 3-weapon fencers. (foil, epee, sabre)

Sabre has the most cross-over, given that you were slashing with the blade, whereas foil and epee are stabbing weapons.

The important thing about fencing, what determines whether or not you're going to be competent and competitive or not, is footwork. The first couple of weeks, it's nothing but very repetitive footwork drills. Getting into a fencing stance, and practicing the step... forward and backward.

Unlike reality, or most other styles, competitive fencing is odd in that you stay on a strip, instead of being in a ring of some sort.

Having had a bit of background in kickboxing, where I'd been taught to dominate the center of a ring, really helped in fencing where you want to dominate the strip. You want to control the pace of the bout. Sure, you might need to retreat if they're pushing the attack, but, you want to do a stop, and regain ROW.

Also, coming from a kung-fu style, where I had this automatic horse stance position helped a lot. The foot arrangement is different, but the idea of getting your footing wide and your center of gravity low is key.

Unlike in a ring, where you stalk each other, on the strip you keep your forward foot forward and pointing ahead at your opponent, and your rear foot turned at 90 degrees. You step forward wit hthe lead foot, then bring the rear foot up to regain your stance. If you retreat, put your rear foot back then slide your forward foot back to regain the stance.

Returning to kung-fu now after years of a hiatus, I'm finding that I'm bringing the fencing back with me. Instead of being so willing to let the other person want to circle, I have a tendency to either advance in a hard line, or feignt to get them to parry/attack the way I want them to so I could then come at it the way I want to... to get them to commit to the attack that I am already prepared to control.

And, as someone mentioned above, you don;t think too far in advance. You would ideally have a very well timed lunge, or a balestra accompanyied with a beat followed by said lunge. Or, I usually did better getting them to lunge into me where I'd execute a stop and they'd hang themselves on it. Some people like the fleche, where you bolt past the opponent and hit them on the run. Works great if they don't see it coming... one particular tournament, someone from another school was kickin' butt pretty well with it, and couldn't get past me, though... because I'm a lefty. Most lefties fence right-handed, and don't bother to try to find left-handed equipment. So, most people don't know how to fence against someone left-handed.... whereas everyone I fence is right-handed, I'm used to everyone else... So, his fleche kept putting him right onto my blade.


Anyway.... my point was, while it's different from other systems, given that it's a sport-form of a weapon-art, there's still a lot that can be correlated into other systems.

Ya know, I'm gonna have to find some people to fence with again now.... :)



-L

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by LNBright
This thread is the reason why I signed up here! lol...

Well then, first things first. Thanks for joining up and laying some info on me. I appreciate that.


There was an english professor who was an avid fencer, used to be competitive, so he jumped in to help us get started, being our faculty advisor and really helped us get a good solid foundation.

When I fenced briefly in college, one of the history professors would periodically come by and school the lot of us too. That's one of the interesting things to me about it. The attributes that would be really useful empty handed (like size, despite what people like to think) aren't necessarily as valuable with a weapon. This guy, twice our age, would beat one guy after another. Because he wasn't having to do that much. The movements are tight enough that he wasn't expending that much energy.


After doing it for a year, we had it added as a PE class. The professor was slick, tho', he had two sections created, one that was the general glass, and a second closed section in which the original ones of us were admitted for a bit more advanced work. Things really progressed well.

We actually started hosting tournaments with some of the other colleges in the southeast.... Vanderbilt, UT, Baylor... we also organized some workshops, even had our professor's fencing instructor, Charles Selberg, come out and do a pretty intensive workshop for us.

Nice!


Although we all started with foil, we all pretty much had an interest in being 3-weapon fencers. (foil, epee, sabre)

Sabre has the most cross-over, given that you were slashing with the blade, whereas foil and epee are stabbing weapons.

That's why I always liked sabre, yeah. But I'm developing a real appreciation for the subtleties you have to master to operate in as strict a framework as foil fencing.


The important thing about fencing, what determines whether or not you're going to be competent and competitive or not, is footwork.

Amen. I love footwork of any sort these days.


Having had a bit of background in kickboxing, where I'd been taught to dominate the center of a ring, really helped in fencing where you want to dominate the strip. You want to control the pace of the bout. Sure, you might need to retreat if they're pushing the attack, but, you want to do a stop, and regain ROW.

You hit on two things that have struck me about fencing so far. And they're both related to control. How much control you can assert over your opponent by 1) your position on the strip and 2) the position of your weapon. Drawing (leaving an opening for the opponent to capitalize on and then countering when he tries) was familiar to me before I started fencing. (Of course, it was familiar from JKD, who nicked it from fencing, so "hakuna matata.") But I've not seen that concept elaborated on as much as it is in fencing.

And your position on the strip. The good fencers will make you chase them, make you back pedal, make you stand your ground, whatever serves their purpose. Of course, good practitioners of any art will have that sort of control over their opponent. I'm not suggesting that fencing is better. Only that their are valuable skills and ideas to be gleaned.


Returning to kung-fu now after years of a hiatus, I'm finding that I'm bringing the fencing back with me. Instead of being so willing to let the other person want to circle, I have a tendency to either advance in a hard line, or feignt to get them to parry/attack the way I want them to so I could then come at it the way I want to... to get them to commit to the attack that I am already prepared to control.

That's another form of what I referred to in the above paragraph. Very cool.


Anyway.... my point was, while it's different from other systems, given that it's a sport-form of a weapon-art, there's still a lot that can be correlated into other systems.

Couldn't agree more.


Ya know, I'm gonna have to find some people to fence with again now.... :)

I'm headed in to practice tonight, actually. Yay Wednesday.


Stuart B.

[GeneChing]

I'm surprised that this thread hasn't mentioned Savate yet. Anyone got any research there? There's supposed to be a local Savate teacher in this area that people here have been wanting me to check out, but I haven't had the time.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by GeneChing
I'm surprised that this thread hasn't mentioned Savate yet. Anyone got any research there? There's supposed to be a local Savate teacher in this area that people here have been wanting me to check out, but I haven't had the time.

Wow. That's odd. I was just in the stairwell thinking that very same thing. I've heard a savate teacher refer to the muay thai-style round kick as a sabre kick. And that savate kicking theory is based heavily on fencing. Something about the kicking leg staying in a tight area in front much like the sword does.

Where's Crimson Phoenix when ya need him?!

[FatherDog]

Food for thought (http://www.thehaca.com/essays/katanavs.htm)

[apoweyn]

Interesting read!

So Daws and I went fencing last night. And my calves and quads are killing me. It's no secret that I'm out of shape right now. So we'll start there. But I remember our teacher mentioning a way to recover from the lunge position to en garde without constantly pushing yourself up with your lead leg.

I know you can draw the rear leg in to recover (and not loose ground doing it). Any other methods?


Stuart B.

[David Jamieson]

I personally very much enjoy fencing.

It's great exercise and a fine discipline to pursue as a martial art and as a sport.

Ap, I'm sure you will continue to enjoy the practice of it and as you gain skill, so too will your enjoyment level grow. The intricacies of blade work are enormous. It is boundless in it's revelations to the practitioner.

cheers

[apoweyn]

Cheers KL.

I'm sure you're right. I'm already really digging on the tactical peculiarities. I was concentrating last night on not withdrawing the sword as much. In boxing, I'd need to withdraw a jab each time to throw it again, obviously. In fencing, I'm having to get used to the notion that that's not so. By withdrawing, I loose right of way (yeah?) And regardless, I can leave the sword extended and still score a blow by lunging.

Very obvious to any real fencer, I'm sure. But a bit of realization for me.

Anyway, after the holidays, the next actual class session starts (though I'll continue going to team practices as well).


Stuart B.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by apoweyn
Cheers KL.

I'm sure you're right. I'm already really digging on the tactical peculiarities. I was concentrating last night on not withdrawing the sword as much. In boxing, I'd need to withdraw a jab each time to throw it again, obviously. In fencing, I'm having to get used to the notion that that's not so. By withdrawing, I loose right of way (yeah?) And regardless, I can leave the sword extended and still score a blow by lunging.

Very obvious to any real fencer, I'm sure. But a bit of realization for me.

Anyway, after the holidays, the next actual class session starts (though I'll continue going to team practices as well).


Stuart B.

Well, you still need to withdraw, just not too far. Don't forget you lose right of way if your attack is parried. It can work against you.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by joedoe


Well, you still need to withdraw, just not too far. Don't forget you lose right of way if your attack is parried. It can work against you.

I guess that's true. The guy that used the 'leave it extended' trick on me was good enough to evade my blade when I tried to parry or beat, and then stabbed me good. If I'd touched his blade, he would've lost right of way, yes?

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Probably the most ornate was a Spanish school which emlyed complex footwork patterns in a 'mystic circle'... but eventually died out because it was too complex.

It's still around (http://www.martinez-destreza.com/articles/spanish1.htm)!

Speaking of which, does anyone here do classical or historical fencing?

[joedoe]

Originally posted by apoweyn


I guess that's true. The guy that used the 'leave it extended' trick on me was good enough to evade my blade when I tried to parry or beat, and then stabbed me good. If I'd touched his blade, he would've lost right of way, yes?

I think Gene or someone else would be more qualified to answer this than me. However, if your opponent extends the blade and initiates the attack, then you may parry and riposte. If the ref considers them to have initiated the attack by extending the blade, then I guess it is considered a parry-riposte. Otherwise it would be considered a beat attack. Either way if you contact their blade then initiate your own attack they will lose right of attack and will have to parry your attack or concede the point (provided your attack is successful).

All this talk of fencing is starting to make me consider taking it up again :)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by joedoe
I think Gene or someone else would be more qualified to answer this than me. However, if your opponent extends the blade and initiates the attack, then you may parry and riposte. If the ref considers them to have initiated the attack by extending the blade, then I guess it is considered a parry-riposte. Otherwise it would be considered a beat attack. Either way if you contact their blade then initiate your own attack they will lose right of attack and will have to parry your attack or concede the point (provided your attack is successful).

I think that's the crux of it. This guy knew when I went to parry, evaded my blade altogether (so he didn't lose right of way), and stabbed me.


All this talk of fencing is starting to make me consider taking it up again :)

I wouldn't talk ya out of it.

[Meat Shake]

Fencing sounds like fun...
I think Ill just play with some kali sticks for a bit first.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Meat Shake
Fencing sounds like fun...
I think Ill just play with some kali sticks for a bit first.

The two are pretty complementary. I started with the kali sticks myself.

[yenhoi]

Found a SCA guy to sparr with.

...from The West Kingdom (http://www.westkingdom.org/)

Neat.

:eek:

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Found a SCA guy to sparr with.

...from The West Kingdom (http://www.westkingdom.org/)

Neat.

:eek:

Oh you gots to tape that!

[Ky-Fi]

Originally posted by apoweyn


I guess that's true. The guy that used the 'leave it extended' trick on me was good enough to evade my blade when I tried to parry or beat, and then stabbed me good. If I'd touched his blade, he would've lost right of way, yes?

I would mostly echo what joedoe said, but I think you have to do more than just touch his blade---you have to direct it out of line from your target area to legally negate his attack. Just touching his blade wouldn't be enough, as I understand it, if he still subsequently hits his target with the motions of the original attack. Gene?

"This guy knew when I went to parry, evaded my blade altogether (so he didn't lose right of way), and stabbed me."

Yep, that's exactly what you want to do from an offensive standpoint. And when you're inexperienced and face a good fencer, he can sometimes KEEP evading your parries with tiny little half-circles, while you flail around helplessly with bigger and bigger, horrendously ugly, windshield-wiper type parries until he finally decides to put you out of your misery :). I've had that done to me!

[LNBright]

Originally posted by Ky-Fi
I would mostly echo what joedoe said, but I think you have to do more than just touch his blade---you have to direct it out of line from your target area to legally negate his attack. Just touching his blade wouldn't be enough, as I understand it, if he still subsequently hits his target with the motions of the original attack.


Exactly..... There were times when you can, um, "counter-parry", ie, essentially beat back against their attempt to parry your blade... if you keep your blade in line, you maintain right-of-way....


I need to find somebody local to fence with...... :)



-L

[yenhoi]

I was watching a small group of them today.

They look easy to hurt :(

:mad:

[LNBright]

Originally posted by yenhoi
I was watching a small group of them today.

They look easy to hurt


Well, I can offer two opposing thoughts here as commentary......


A) Remember, fencing today is a sport. You don't have to be big and brawny because you're not *really* trying to run someone through. And, even if a smalller person is somewhat competent, a large person with a lot of power behind a stroke can overpower someone, especially with enough determination (ever see the movie Rob Roy with Liam Neeson?


B) Looks can be deceiving... although a sport, the modern fencer is often more skilled than the warriors of yesteryear. While they may or may not be mentally perpared to kill someone in a duel, often their skills are such that they are more than capable enough to do so. Opposite of what I said earlier, a smaller-yet-more skilled opponent is going to be the one to beat you instead of some huge fella who's just started.


SO, it depends...... :D



-Les

[yenhoi]

No, the SCA people.

I dunno, after christmas Im going to go play with their group one day and then a couple of them are going to then come and play with my group.

Shin kick!

:eek:

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Ky-Fi
I would mostly echo what joedoe said, but I think you have to do more than just touch his blade---you have to direct it out of line from your target area to legally negate his attack. Just touching his blade wouldn't be enough, as I understand it, if he still subsequently hits his target with the motions of the original attack. Gene?

Ah. Alright. That makes sense actually.


Yep, that's exactly what you want to do from an offensive standpoint. And when you're inexperienced and face a good fencer, he can sometimes KEEP evading your parries with tiny little half-circles, while you flail around helplessly with bigger and bigger, horrendously ugly, windshield-wiper type parries until he finally decides to put you out of your misery :). I've had that done to me!

LOL at the ring of truth to this. Windshield wiper parries. :)

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by LNBright
Exactly..... There were times when you can, um, "counter-parry", ie, essentially beat back against their attempt to parry your blade... if you keep your blade in line, you maintain right-of-way....


I think I'll need closer observation than we've been getting so far before I can learn that. I'm still not completely clear on when I have right of way and when I don't. Normally, it's not an issue. One person scores. The other doesn't. But when we get some more coaching, I'm sure I'll get a better sense of that.

I'm hoping to do a little video the next time we go as well. So perhaps you gang will be able to give some feedback.


Stuart B.

[GeneChing]

...all that SCA talk made me lose interest.

As for right of way, if memory serves, right of way is defined as the extending arm with the point on target. That was a big shift a few years back, extending vs. extended. I've lost track of what the current stance on it might be. Now if someone can keep the point on target - maintain the threat - and evade your attempt to break right of way, well, that's pretty good. You're probably too wild with your beats or attempts to take the blade. All you have to do to remove right of way is to break that line, and usually, a light beat is all you need.

Now for a fencing lesson: there are very strict terms for fencing and it's movements. It's an extremely elgant system of combat - a real science, very mathmatical. So be very careful about banding around terms, because you're probably wrong. You can't counter-parry without a parry and a beat is not necessarily a parry. A parry is a defensive action. A beat is a percussive strike to the blade. So you can parry with a beat, but you can also use a beat to attack the blade, initiate an action. This gets really complex - most people are used to just thinking in terms of attack/defence or attack/counterattack. But fencing actually takes this a lot further with attack/counterattack/countertime/feint in time/arrest in countertime. This stuff is really high level theory - you really need to understand fencing time to discuss it. I was working on an article about using fencing theory to describe martial arts - which is a lot of the key to Bruce Lee's JKD - but I got too bogged down in trying to convey the theory. It's very complex and hard to describe effectively. Unfortunately, most JKD people don't really understand it and misuse it. In my readings of Lee, I believe he had a descent grasp of it, but keep in mind that most of his JKD writings were posthumous publication of his notes, so I don't think he fleshed it all out completely. He didn't get the chance. That being said, there are some serious problems using fencing theory to describe martial arts since martial arts has more variables. Most of the JKD people get it all wrong, but then again, a strong argument could be made for them redefining the terms to meet their needs. My argument was that if you look at the roots, if you look at fencing, it doesn't really work.

[LNBright]

Originally posted by GeneChing
...all that SCA talk made me lose interest.


lol..... A LONG time ago, I almost got interested in SCA, but, it was a goofy thing at the time, felt too tied to D&D....

When I was fencing, some of the people I fenced with were involved with SCA, and it was different: they took it more seriously, as far as the art and crafts go, yet took it much more lightly, it was just a fun hobby.... they were "normal" by any other measure, whereas the other folks I had known were so one-dimensional, that SCA WAS their life, and really didn't have a good footing in reality. Evindently, it can range over a broad spectrum....




Originally posted by GeneChing
Now for a fencing lesson: there are very strict terms for fencing and it's movements. It's an extremely elgant system of combat - a real science, very mathmatical. So be very careful about banding around terms, because you're probably wrong.

Wow, Gene, you are versatile, aren't ya? :D

Seriously, it's been 7 years since I've worn my knickers and crossed blades with someone, and even then at the height of my skill, I still never managed to letter, though if I had pushed a little harder I might have picked up an "E".... a second child arriving took priority, though.... Anyway....

You're absolutely right, ther terminology IS very well defined. I know I'm guilty of being sloppy in phrasing here, realizing that I was relating it to non-fencing. I'll watch my p's and q's better....
:)


FWIW, if anyone is interested, I'd HIGHLY recommend a book called "Foil" by Charles Selberg.... Charles is the fellow we had fly in to do our seminar, and he is REALLY talented as an instructor. If anyone is around Eugene, Oregon, and he's still teaching these days, I'd highly recommend seeing what you can learn from him. There are some good classic texts by Aldo Nadi, too, but Charles' book is more graspable. (okay, poor grammar, I should have said " ... the presentation of the contents within Charles' book make the concepts more easily understandable" or some such derivation....lol.....)


Speaking of, where I have I put that book? Hmmm..... I've moved 4 times since I last read it.... it's got to be in a box in the spare bedroom.... (haven't unpacked *that* bunch, given that we know we're going to move again once the house is built, lol...)



-L

[apoweyn]

So, my wife and I are hitting the antique shops in Ellicott City this past weekend. And I wander into a used bookshop. And score myself an original printing of Aldo Nadi's On Fencing. For (based on what I've read on the internet) a very reasonable price at that.

Anyone read this?

[LNBright]

I checked it out of the college library 10 years ago..... I recall liking it, but, I couldn't tell you much about it now, not having read it since.....



I ought to put it on my "to acquire a copy" list.......






-L

[apoweyn]

Well, they've recently done a reprint. I daresay you can pick it up at the bookstore now. I was just pleased with finding an original copy. :)

[No_Know]

"But I remember our teacher mentioning a way to recover from the lunge position to en garde without constantly pushing yourself up with your lead leg.

I know you can draw the rear leg in to recover (and not loose ground doing it). Any other methods?"

lunge; feet remaining (except your rear foot which must be put bottom to the ground (basically in place, forward placements only [fortification]); shift weight back (yin/yang the knees) slightly; anchor the front foot--press firmly so as to pull the rear foot up (close to under you): you are now in a close to cat stance stance, not lost ground and recovered.~

When you lunge perhaps a less extended lag leg? As you land the front foot, then drag the rear foot closer (bending of the rear knee; bringing in and down some), while keeping the spreadness of a lunge.

For this method, when shifting weight back slightly, rotate the palm down, inward, and then upward, facing-ish you. draw-up the rear (leg/foot). Bring your hip up with the leg...hipnot Ever leaving that centerline on the ground might improve comfort and ease of maintaining and delivering your techniques (fencing like in the videos you recently put-up).

Deflect with the hilt. Move the hilt close to your heart (even though away from your body) [Let your hilt be centered at your heart; the Other center for your hilt is your waist]; lower the hilt while keeping the blade up. Tilt the blade to the left (when sword is in right hand) to deflect when moving/carrying the hilt.

When you deflect to the left keep your swords met; reposition your sword tip to the rightside on their body. Commit to your sting. (When you block to the left their body area opens (theoretically)when striking with commitment to their sword side even being deflected your are going forward having to clear person's Whole body to have you miss.

Analysis and theories from a No_Know.

[GeneChing]

If you're looking for fencing books, check out my old place of employ - American Fencers Supply (http://www.amfence.com/html/books_fencing.html). Speaking of Selberg's book, Foil, you can see my old maestro, the late Michael D'Saro, as well as his ex-wife and fellow former Olympiad, Gay. I trained under both of them when I was an NCAA fencer. Speaking of Aldo Nadi, I trained under a direct student of his, Maitre William Gaugler, when I was working on my Provost at Arms. Gaugler has been the one responsible for bringing Nadi's works back into print, as well as publishing a lot of other titles that you'll find listed at American Fencers Supply. If you contact AFS, ask for the Yeti and tell him Gene sent you.

[apoweyn]

To see how we're coming along:

www.apoweyn.net/martialarts/index.htm

Six fencing videos on the bottom right.

[blooming lotus]

just found this thread...very cool...have actually been condiosering picking up some fencing myself, thought that it may help stance training and lunging alah tai ji??? Chuck Noris gives fencing huge wraps in terms of assisting timing.also about to get into light and heavy swordery??? not sold...but definately considering

[No_Know]

fencing01 clip:

"L" stance lean on the instep for the lunge. You seemedeto be anxious, waiting for the right time to attack and waiting for his attack.

fencing02 clip:

Backed him right on up. Hilt to the front,a stuttered promise of attack delivered towards the end of the line. Keep this technique in mind one might think. Small centerline refutes to the probing blade might make them hesitate or rethink thatset-up for their attack.

fencing03 clip:

I got that you were nervous, and lost faith in your learning or database [Humorism:in reality, a fencer fencing will revert to kickboxing (Savate(more culturally appropriate)). Your stance is wide you want mobility, balance is good, confidence can get you the touch.

Look at the row one above yours study how the person in black is nearly standing or slight stance. You might have quicker movement~ if you have less distance over which to shift.
Person's body is forward yours is divided leaning the top part forward--the illusion of weight forward but actually weight back. Good for standing your ground fencing, but must be dropped to move and before moving. shoulders, ribcage hips--an straight upright column.~

It's as if your cool calculating I'm going to get this technique in...it goes...Here! went to oh yeah? Oh Yeah? watch me...vik cxu fihf iy utd ut fud yd u...Like he challenged you to be good by saying you were not as good as you thought, then insulted or offended youkept trying to impress him focusing on an I'll show you touch and not in an appropriate time frame so you didn't concernyourself with the footwork anymore at least.

fencing04 clip:

Prepare, small approach(es), intimidate, stand your ground. Impressive [Note: throughout this series was enjoyable at least in part because I got to see the thinking. and you were doing what you'd gotten from class trying to be a good student and trying to conquer yourself in that you did not know what to expect but you probablly had what it took to meet it. And it was a pleasure scared. and I thought you did well. at least middle of the class if not amoung-top-rung. Certainly, other than bottom-lister].

fencing05 clip:

You kept your frame and moove from the jnees. Wonderful. I'd seen tis in at least another of the previous clips but was overcome to mention another aspect initially it seems.
Done in 01, (the end of 02), not at all~ in 03, 04.

fencing06 clip:

That is a fine portrait of a fencer you portray. Some where you pickedup to have your feet more under you and the move within the line (In at least one of your earlier clips you would at least your front foot be on the right-hand side of the line). Beautiful!

Of those shown you and your partner seemed top of the class with the next set on the opposite end under you (both). Except for you and the absolute new person~ the others had movie fencing hot-shot tendencies. You seemed refine anddignified in your actions and moves/techniques. It was calmness that set people apart. ~

I liked these as well as your sparring and stick fighting clips. Good going.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by No_Know
fencing01 clip:

"L" stance lean on the instep for the lunge. You seemedeto be anxious, waiting for the right time to attack and waiting for his attack.

Yeah. That was the previous week to the other clips. And I wasn't very pleased with it. I feel like I wasn't really grasping (or using) the technical specifics of fencing. I mean, my footwork is okay. But I wasn't accounting for things like extending the sword before moving the feet into the lunge, etc. Things that are specific to fencing.

And I wasn't aggressive enough. But those two go hand in hand. Confidence --> aggressiveness.


fencing02 clip:

Backed him right on up. Hilt to the front,a stuttered promise of attack delivered towards the end of the line. Keep this technique in mind one might think. Small centerline refutes to the probing blade might make them hesitate or rethink thatset-up for their attack.

Aggressiveness is getting better. I'm concentrating on extending the sword rather than closing distance first and then attacking with the sword. Big mistake in fencing. A lot of the time, a more experienced fencer can stab me before I feel like I've moved into range. I'd know better if I extended first (and I earn right of way that way).


fencing03 clip:

I got that you were nervous, and lost faith in your learning or database [Humorism:in reality, a fencer fencing will revert to kickboxing (Savate(more culturally appropriate)). Your stance is wide you want mobility, balance is good, confidence can get you the touch.

Interestingly, savate is said to be based on fencing theory.


Look at the row one above yours study how the person in black is nearly standing or slight stance. You might have quicker movement~ if you have less distance over which to shift.
Person's body is forward yours is divided leaning the top part forward--the illusion of weight forward but actually weight back. Good for standing your ground fencing, but must be dropped to move and before moving. shoulders, ribcage hips--an straight upright column.~

Yeah, I'm still working on that sort of thing. My first reaction is always retreating footwork. So it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if my resting stance was oriented that way. I spent some time that night concentrating on standing my ground, parrying, and riposte (countering).


It's as if your cool calculating I'm going to get this technique in...it goes...Here! went to oh yeah? Oh Yeah? watch me...vik cxu fihf iy utd ut fud yd u...Like he challenged you to be good by saying you were not as good as you thought, then insulted or offended youkept trying to impress him focusing on an I'll show you touch and not in an appropriate time frame so you didn't concernyourself with the footwork anymore at least.

Meh. Daws and I have been friends for 20+ years. I want him to succeed as much as I want me to succeed. So no, I wasn't insulted or offended. But you're right in a sense. I probably was concentrating too hard on landing one particular thing. My bread and butter technique is to feint to the inside, dip under his blade when he goes to parry, and score on the outside. Or vice versa.

It's a good technique. Hell, every point I scored in these clips was that same technique. But searching for it isn't a good thing. Need to mix it up first of all. But more importantly in the long run, I need to learn how to 'read' fencing, so that I take what's there rather than trying to hammer my own ideas in there.


fencing04 clip:

Prepare, small approach(es), intimidate, stand your ground. Impressive [Note: throughout this series was enjoyable at least in part because I got to see the thinking. and you were doing what you'd gotten from class trying to be a good student and trying to conquer yourself in that you did not know what to expect but you probablly had what it took to meet it. And it was a pleasure scared. and I thought you did well. at least middle of the class if not amoung-top-rung. Certainly, other than bottom-lister].

Yeah, clip 4 is going on my highlight video. [grin] Seriously, that's the one where I clearly felt in control. I scored two hits using that very same technique again. And that's all well and good. Not noteworthy because I scored that technique. Only because I felt in control of the pacing, timing, etc. Then, when Daws rushed in, I stood my ground, parried, and got him to run straight into my sword. Very pleased with that one.

As for being middle of the class, I don't know. Mostly I've been fencing with Daws and Mike, who both have slightly less experience than me. (I fenced a little in college and have done lots of weapons work in eskrima, whereas Daws did a little taekwondo and that's about it. Mike... Well, this is virtually Mike's first athletic pursuit ever.) All that is to say that my relative ranking probably shouldn't be determined from these clips. We only record our bouts together rather than imposing on the regular team members. Maybe when we're feeling more like fixtures there...

I do okay against the more experienced guys as long as my conditioning holds out. And I'm genuinely feeling like I'm getting better every practice. So who knows. What I do know is that there are plenty of people there who could still trade me for cigarettes if they wanted to.


fencing05 clip:

You kept your frame and moove from the jnees. Wonderful. I'd seen tis in at least another of the previous clips but was overcome to mention another aspect initially it seems.
Done in 01, (the end of 02), not at all~ in 03, 04.

[heavy sigh]

I'm actually not in clips 5 and 6. That's Mike. I'm the cameraman (though I hate to admit that in clip 5). But I'll pass the compliments along to Mike.

Mike's first exposure to swordplay was about a year ago through stage combat for a production of Sir Gawaine (in which he played Sir Gawaine). As a result, he looks very sharp. I think Daws still has a slightly better grip on the technical subtleties and the competitive mindset. But Mike's got the aesthetic down. And as he develops more of an instinct for fighting, he's going to be a menace.


fencing06 clip:

That is a fine portrait of a fencer you portray. Some where you pickedup to have your feet more under you and the move within the line (In at least one of your earlier clips you would at least your front foot be on the right-hand side of the line). Beautiful!

Again, not me. Mike. You're very astute though, No_Know. My foot does indeed go to the right of the line a lot. It's from the triangular footwork of eskrima. To zone off the line. Another fencer commented on it later that same night. He seemed to think it was fine. As long, obviously, as it didn't send too far off the line (since fencing bouts are done on a line and perhaps even a platform).


Of those shown you and your partner seemed top of the class with the next set on the opposite end under you (both). Except for you and the absolute new person~ the others had movie fencing hot-shot tendencies. You seemed refine anddignified in your actions and moves/techniques. It was calmness that set people apart. ~

Mike has good poise. But (not to bad mouth him), he's the least experienced guy in the room. The other guys may look like hotshots, but I can promise you that they'd score on Mike (or me) a lot more often than the other way around. And at the end of the day, getting run through with the sword is what counts.

I agree, though, that if Mike can maintain that sense of poise against good fencers, he's going to be a real joy to watch. Stylistically, he already is. I really dig clip 6 just for the interplay between him and Daws in the middle.


I liked these as well as your sparring and stick fighting clips. Good going.

Cheers. And thanks for the insights, No_Know. As usual, you've got a good eye for technical detail.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
just found this thread...very cool...have actually been condiosering picking up some fencing myself, thought that it may help stance training and lunging alah tai ji??? Chuck Noris gives fencing huge wraps in terms of assisting timing.also about to get into light and heavy swordery??? not sold...but definately considering

What I find interesting is actually fighting with a blade. Granted it's not sharpened. But in martial arts, sword training very often consists of sword forms. Yeah, you've got kendo and fencing and even CMA gim fencing nowadays. And those give you a really clear appreciation of the 'realities' of sword fighting.

I sparred stick for years. And while we always said 'it translates to the sword', the truth is that there are some glaring differences between the two. And while it's good to recognize and capitalize on the common ground, it's also good to get some experience of the important differences.

Case in point: My footwork. I tend to move first and then attack with the weapon. With a stick, that would make sense. Get into position and then attack. I couldn't very well put my stick out and then step into position and expect that to do any sort of appreciable damage. But with a sword, I can and should do that. Put the sword out and lunge into position. The requirements to do damage with one vs. the other are completely different. With an impact weapon, it's a good idea to keep it ****ed (apparently, I should have said 'chambered' rather than 'c0cked') and then throw it. With the sword, when I do that, the other guy has run me through long before I'm in what I think is a viable position.


Stuart B.

[yenhoi]

Alot of that has to do with the line, dont you think?

Id imagine, even with the line, sabre play is worlds apart?

:confused:

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Alot of that has to do with the line, dont you think?

Id imagine, even with the line, sabre play is worlds apart?

:confused:

Yep. A lot of that has to do with the line. And with the nature of thrusting weapons vs. hacking weapons. I probably still wouldn't fight with a machete as if it were a foil. Still, I wouldn't fight a guy who had a machete as if he had a stick either. Little things like when you can afford to get your empty hand involved, for example. Against a stick, I have a little more leeway. Obviously, I don't want to get my hand hit, breaking every bone therein. But once the stick has lost its momentum, I can take control of it. The window of opportunity for doing so with a blade is smaller. And keeping your hand out of harm's way while you defend yourself more exclusively with your own weapon is a lesson well learned.

I'm eager to do saber again myself for that very reason. It most closely mirrors the stick but with the blade considerations included.


Stuart B.

p.s. Watching video clip 6 again, I'm inclined to think that Mike's better at some aspects of fencing than I am already. That's a beautiful exchange (though it may be a bit underwhelming to people with more experience than me; I don't know). He stood his ground, read the blade, countered, and kept his feet. I'm envious.

[No_Know]

So (needle-and-thread) it seems that shorter steps--distance is covered with the sword and the time used to close or withdraw is time the other uses to lunge/close and score; less play at your elbow; control of the sword is at the wrist and shoulder; instead of leaning the torso, rotate (counter-clockwise) the torso for extra reach/length.

[blooming lotus]

someone mentioned a few posts back that in their sttyle, they get into postion then extend..is it just me that does that similultaneously ?.....or maybe its just my lightening speed that makes it look that way :p

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
someone mentioned a few posts back that in their sttyle, they get into postion then extend..is it just me that does that similultaneously ?.....or maybe its just my lightening speed that makes it look that way :p

Well, yeah, presumably they'll often happen near simultaneously. But I'm a beginner. So I have to emphasize that sequence. My habit is to move my feet and keep my sword chambered. So I often underestimate the range, get closer than I need to be to hit, and then get bound up. Or tagged by the guy with his sword out.

Sword first, feet second. But ideally in very rapid succession. As far as I understand anyway.

[yenhoi]

Makes you faster.

What about moving the sword around constantly? As opposed to holding it in one spot?

:confused:

[apoweyn]

Some guys move the sword around a bit. As long as they lead with the hand. By that, I mean that the point of the sword stays pretty much on target, while the guard (and your hand in it) can be moved to different angles. That way, when you parry, your sword point is already on target for the riposte.

When I say the point's on target, though, I guess I'm not talking about a pin-***** specific target. The point is aimed at the torso. But it can change elevation, sides of the opponent's sword, etc. As long as the point is always pointed in the right direction.

One of the biggest mistakes me and Daws have made in the past is parrying by moving the point of the sword. "Windshield wiper defense." The hand is the pivot point and the sword point waves around wildly.

Bad policy. Better to think about parrying with the blade closer to the handle. Keeping the point where it needs to be to counter.

That all changes with saber though.

Standard disclaimer: As far as I know based on my limited exposure to fencing


Edited: Because you can't say "pin-pr!ck"

[ShaolinTiger00]

Gentlemen,

Amazing thread.

carry on.

[apoweyn]

Cheers. :)

I'll keep it going as long as people are interested. Granted, this thread doesn't have 'got qi' girls. But I'll do what I can.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by No_Know
So (needle-and-thread) it seems that shorter steps--distance is covered with the sword and the time used to close or withdraw is time the other uses to lunge/close and score; less play at your elbow; control of the sword is at the wrist and shoulder; instead of leaning the torso, rotate (counter-clockwise) the torso for extra reach/length.

Our teacher (maestro?) takes extremely small steps when he fences. What I might describe as 'stutter steps.' I'm not sure I could move that way without feeling like an overexcited pekinese, but I digress.

Since fencing takes place in basically two directions (forward and back), it's largely about range. There's no lateral body movement. No zoning (in the FMA sense). Just forward and back. That makes it really important to be able to manipulate both real distance and your opponent's perception of distance, to my mind.

I've noticed our teacher, even when he's standing still, still looks to be moving. So his opponent is making adjustments based on a perception of movement. Not on the reality of movement. Manipulations like that can buy you the step or two that make the difference between scoring and not.

I've also noticed fencers playing a similar game with the extended sword. Fully extended, the sword gives the impression that you're safely out of range. But then the guy throws the lunge in there as well and suddenly you're well within his range and (theoretically) dead.

That's another argument for extending the sword first.


Stuart B.

p.s. I'm getting tired of putting disclaimers like 'as I understand it.' So from here on out, assume that's what I mean. And if you know more about fencing than I do, for God's sake, correct or even directly contradict me. Thanks.

[ShaolinTiger00]

'got qi' girls

Stupidest thread ever.

[ShaolinTiger00]

There's no lateral body movement.

Why not Stu? I would think that a good pivot off the lead foot would allow you to avoid your opponents thrust and yet remain very close to him for a stab/slash of your own..

[joedoe]

Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00


Why not Stu? I would think that a good pivot off the lead foot would allow you to avoid your opponents thrust and yet remain very close to him for a stab/slash of your own..

There is a little bit of lateral movement, but not much. This is limited to a certain degree by the rules of fencing. It is actually quite hard to move quickly enough to avoid a well set up attack using a pivot. Add to this that you must actually parry (contact your opponent's blade) before you can launch your riposte, meaning you have to maintain a position where you can execute your parry/riposte.

There is also a rule about how far the non-sword hand can come forward, so you cannot turn your body too far.

[apoweyn]

ST00,

What Joedoe said.

There is some lateral movement. But you're fighting on a strip, so your lateral footwork is limited. You can 'slip' (in boxing terms).

Actually, last night I did that. (I haven't got the clips worked out yet, and for the most part they're abysmal anyway.) A parry 4 followed by a riposte. (An out-to-in parry in karate terms.) Mike lunged, I parried and slipped to the side so the point of his sword actually went well past me. Then I countered.

I think remaining close to him for a counter is exactly the problem though, ST. I mean yeah, it worked. But Mike was virtually on top of me by the time I countered. And that's an awfully close range for a sword counter. Stabbed is stabbed, though. Lateral movement did work. But it wasn't nearly as economical as it would have been to, for example, beat his sword off the line and stick mine out for him to run into.

That's a significant difference between sword and hand. Sticking my fist out and having someone run into it is kinda sad. Not going to do any compelling damage that way. So lateral movement to set up for a power shot makes more sense. But with a long sword, it's much more economical to let the blade do the work for you.

That's a horrible explanation. Mea culpa.

[apoweyn]

And while I'm reflecting on last night's session:

The previous week (the videos from which you've seen), I came out of practice high as a kite. I'd learned some things that changed the whole game for me. I'd felt in control of the exchanges. I wasn't winded. It was great. Breakthrough, I thought.

Last night was the counterswing to that. I felt clumsy, uncoordinated, and forced. Daws and Mike freaking peppered me with hits. (I can't tell you how impressed I was with them last night.)

But I think that's the logical consequence of a 'breakthrough.' Last week, this guy (Rafael) worked on our parry/riposte and our counter 6 parry. (The opposite of a parry 4. An in-to-out parry that sends the opponent's sword out over your lead shoulder.) And another guy (Robert) gave us some great tips too.

Last night, I was trying to use some of the things they taught us. And, in my defense, they worked really well. But I guess I haven't gotten comfy enough with them that they flowed yet. So I felt 'off my game.'

Mike and Daws managed to use them more effectively in their overall game plan. I wish we'd gotten better video of it. There were some nice exchanges.

Anyway, I suppose the point I'm trying to make is mostly to myself. That a breakthrough is indeed often followed with a dip, as I try to incorporate something new into my framework.

Again, sh*tty explanation. Not having much luck with this whole "word thing" today.


Stuart B.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by apoweyn
And while I'm reflecting on last night's session:

The previous week (the videos from which you've seen), I came out of practice high as a kite. I'd learned some things that changed the whole game for me. I'd felt in control of the exchanges. I wasn't winded. It was great. Breakthrough, I thought.

Last night was the counterswing to that. I felt clumsy, uncoordinated, and forced. Daws and Mike freaking peppered me with hits. (I can't tell you how impressed I was with them last night.)

But I think that's the logical consequence of a 'breakthrough.' Last week, this guy (Rafael) worked on our parry/riposte and our counter 6 parry. (The opposite of a parry 4. An in-to-out parry that sends the opponent's sword out over your lead shoulder.) And another guy (Robert) gave us some great tips too.

Last night, I was trying to use some of the things they taught us. And, in my defense, they worked really well. But I guess I haven't gotten comfy enough with them that they flowed yet. So I felt 'off my game.'

Mike and Daws managed to use them more effectively in their overall game plan. I wish we'd gotten better video of it. There were some nice exchanges.

Anyway, I suppose the point I'm trying to make is mostly to myself. That a breakthrough is indeed often followed with a dip, as I try to incorporate something new into my framework.

Again, sh*tty explanation. Not having much luck with this whole "word thing" today.


Stuart B.

I experienced the same thing - a massive realisation one week, followed by a very lacklustre performance the next week. I suspect it was because I was too busy trying to capitalise on the previous realisation and trying too hard. You will be fine for next week :)

Good to hear you are doing well and enjoying it though.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by joedoe


I suspect it was because I was too busy trying to capitalise on the previous realisation and trying too hard.

I think that's exactly it. Cheers Joedoe!

[GeneChing]

I have decided that this should be our 'historical fencing' thread and the other one - Fencing (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?9851-Fencing) - should be our modern fencing thread.


Phoenix sword fighters resurrect historical martial art (http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix/2014/10/06/phoenix-sword-fighters-martial-art/16455589/)
The Phoenix Society of Historical Swordsmanship is resurrecting the lost art of European sword fighting.
Ryan Van Velzer, The Republic | azcentral.com 8:31 a.m. MST October 6, 2014

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/a7ad9be8e3c748134505fc7a7eb9d7a170eb099a/c=48-0-3556-2637&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/Phoenix/2014/10/06/pniswordcover.jpg
Jess Hubbard (left) learns moves from Richard Marsden, co-founder and lead instructor of the Phoenix Society of Historical Swordsmanship, during a practice session on Saturday at Margaret T. Hance Park in downtown Phoenix.(Photo: Patrick Breen/The Republic)

The clash of cold steel echoes off the wood floors inside the Irish Cultural Center's great hall in downtown Phoenix.

A semicircle of masked men and women brandishing steel rapiers cheer on their compatriots and await their turn in the ring.

The battles are quick and fierce.

Foes circle each other, raising and lowering their swords, waiting for a moment of weakness. The goal is simple: Vanquish your opponent.

A flair of swashbuckling ensues. A quick thrust breaks through the opponent's guard. The loser is slain through the heart. Or he or she would be, if these were medieval times.

Instead, it's Saturday morning with the Phoenix Society of Historical Swordsmanship, where members practice one-on-one sword fighting with modern-day safety equipment including fencing masks, knee pads, gloves and rubber stoppers fitted onto the ends of blunted steel rapiers and hard plastic long swords.

That doesn't mean the blows don't leave the occasional welt, but for the sword fighters, it's a small price to pay in order to learn and, in turn, resurrect the lost martial art of Historical European sword fighting.

A lost tradition

Unlike the living traditions of Eastern martial arts such as kung fu and kendo, Europeans gave up Historical European Martial Arts, or HEMA, such as sword fighting in favor of gunpowder, said Christopher Nelson, a member of the leadership council at the Phoenix Society of Historical Swordsmanship.

"Nobody learned Italian rapier from their granddad," Nelson said. "Gunpowder stopped that from happening."
PNI sword JUMP

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/6d3dac1fb83844f31e2fa7ba60a02299f5c4eba2/c=0-0-3147-2369&r=x383&c=540x380/local/-/media/Phoenix/2014/10/06/pniswordjump.jpg
Lead Instructor Richard Marsden (center) has Phoenix Society of Historical Swordsmanship members Adam Barrett (right) and Anthony Marcarelli work on their long swords during a Saturday practice. During the week, Marsden is a high-school history teacher.(Photo: Patrick Breen/The Republic)

As a result, students at the Phoenix Society of Historical Swordsmanship study the few remaining texts to reconstruct historical fighting systems. Primarily, the club recreates Italian and German traditions of sword fighting using rapier and long sword, though they also learn to fight with sword and buckler, dussack, small sword, spear, poleaxe (a long-handled Warhammer) and more.

The society's co-founder, Richard Marsden, has studied European Martial Arts for 17 years, won multiple national tournaments and served as president of the HEMA Alliance, a national organization that holds tournaments around the country.

Marsden is also a history teacher at Peoria High School. At the Phoenix Society of Historical Swordsmanship, Marsden uses a ranking system that allows students to ascend not just on their fighting ability, but on their academics.

Students are rated on their ability to read, interpret and understand historical texts in addition to their leadership, teaching ability and swordsmanship.

Although Marsden began the Phoenix club in 2009, it wasn't until 2014 that sword fighting as a martial art caught the public's attention. In the past year, Marsden has watched the club grow from a dozen regulars one day a week to 60 regulars practicing multiple nights.

"It's an undiscovered art," Marsden said. "There's been attempts to re-create it before, but not like now."

Popularity on rise

Part of that can be attributed to popular culture's recent fascination with medieval times, thanks in part to shows such as "Game of Thrones" and video games such as Dark Souls. For the Phoenix Society, demonstrations at this year's Phoenix Comicon bolstered the club's popularity and prompted people to join its ranks.
Phoenix Swordmanship

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/55f7ae5e9f7e4ad4cf064122bdeac3faf9bc6e0f/c=154-0-1108-717&r=x383&c=540x380/local/-/media/Phoenix/None/2014/10/03/1412368458000-fullImage-1-.jpg
Two sword fighters duel with rapiers for the Phoenix Society of Historical Swordsmanship.(Photo: Ryan Van Velzer/The Republic)

Kari Baker, 25, was one of a handful of women who joined the club after watching the rapier demonstration at Phoenix Comicon. Baker said she likes that the club uses a historically based fighting system, as opposed to medieval re-enactment groups such as the Society for Creative Anarchism, whose fighting system has little foundation in historical texts.

"I really like that they had a firm sense of reality," she said.

Cliff Curry, 32, became interested in the Phoenix Society of Historical Swordsmanship through competitive fencing, which he's done for 16 years. Though the sports share similarities, each has its own system of rules, he said. In the Phoenix Society of Historical Swordsmanship, fighters are taught to protect themselves while delivering a strike, unlike fencing, where the goals is to strike your opponent first regardless of getting hit.

Like a 'chess match'

"My philosophy with long sword is 'The pointy end goes into the other man,'" Curry said. "I really like the chess match of all the ins and outs of trying to get the pointy end into the other man."

Members must be 18 years old or older, fit enough to hold a 2-to 3-pound weapon and tough enough to get whacked with a sword.

For more information about the society,
go to phoenixswordclub.com.

If you go

Interested in watching — or perhaps joining — the Phoenix Society of Historical Swordsmanship? It meets on Saturdays from 9 a.m. to noon at Margaret T. Hance Park, Culver Street just west of Central Avenue, near the Irish Cultural Center. There's no cost to check it out. More info: phoenixswordclub.com.