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pseudoswitch
12-05-2003, 04:01 PM
Hey does anyone have a digital copy or a link to that famous pic of Yip Man doing tan sau with the iron rings?

Cheers,

PHILBERT
12-05-2003, 09:22 PM
I couldn't find one on Google, but in the book The Tao of Gung Fu (of the Bruce Lee library) you can find one on page 108. I tried using my mom's digital camera before to take a photo but couldn't get it to work.

pseudoswitch
12-07-2003, 02:22 AM
Can anyone that has that book try scanning the pic and posting it? :D

Nice pic it is. Makes a case for lower tan sau and tension during first SLT section.

Cheers

Sekabin
12-07-2003, 09:55 AM
You mean this?

foolinthedeck
12-07-2003, 10:08 AM
well if thats the pic in question it makes absolutely no case for using tension in the first part of SLT or anywhere else!!!

when you do chi sau with someone whos hands press down on yours, either through relaxation or strength, relaxing and using position is key not tension. It is possible to lift heavy weights and remain relaxed...

furthermore - the picture cannot demonstrate the weight of the rings.

foolinthedeck
12-07-2003, 10:17 AM
Look!
i found a picture of him with even more iron rings!!
so he must be using even more tension!!

old jong
12-07-2003, 10:25 AM
Lokk closely at these two pics.
They look like the same to me but one has more photoshop in it!...:rolleyes: bullpoop!...:p

Sekabin
12-07-2003, 10:29 AM
can anyone tell me what he's supposed to be doing in the pic? What's the origin of it? There must have been a discussion about this before as its a bloody strange photo...

foolinthedeck
12-07-2003, 10:54 AM
maybe he was playing hoop-la at the fair, he stood one side and little bruce would throw the plastic (its a black and white photo so they look like iron) hoops onto Ip Mans tan sao.

maybe it was a rare form of eczema that Ip Man suffered from.

maybe the picture is actually from the 1980's when wearing lots of bangles was all the rage.

Phil Redmond
12-07-2003, 10:56 AM
Funny, I've been telling people this for years and people said I was wrong. I sometimes train using hand weights while concentrating on forwarding energy. Thanks for the pic Sek.
The other picture does look a little extreme as "Young" Jong says.

foolinthedeck
12-07-2003, 11:09 AM
phil,
just because people told you that you were wrong doesnt mean you were.
just because the picture shows what you were doing doesnt mean you were right.

old jong
12-07-2003, 11:49 AM
There is nothing wrong in doing exercices even if these exercices are not "Wing Chun"!...
Being strong and in relative good shape is certainly not a nuisance.;)
Specialy for the "senior citizens" of Wing Chun!....(me included);) ;) :D

Phenix
12-07-2003, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Sekabin
can anyone tell me what he's supposed to be doing in the pic? What's the origin of it? There must have been a discussion about this before as its a bloody strange photo...


He is doing something secret that the Shao Lin guys doesn't know. :D

Phil Redmond
12-07-2003, 07:02 PM
Maybe you were right about the picture. Here's what a student of mine sent me to show what can be done to an image. Can't trust anything these days.

Brithlor
12-07-2003, 08:37 PM
LOL, those photoshop Yip Man pictures are hilarious... I got to make one :).

Brithlor
12-07-2003, 09:05 PM
Like father like son...

pseudoswitch
12-08-2003, 01:22 AM
Thanks Sekabin for the pic, appreciate it! :)

The reason some schools practice the first section of SLT with tension has nothing to do with chi sau or positioning, its just a training method to develop strength in the arms, the iron rings are an aid to that end.

Look (at the 'original' picture :D ) at where the rings are placed. The middle of the arm. If the tan sau were any higher, their benefit would be negated.

Just my thoughts,

Cheers

Sekabin
12-08-2003, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by pseudoswitch
Thanks Sekabin for the pic, appreciate it! :)
Cheers

You're welcome! Don't suppose you can help me find a clip of YM doing Chum Kiu can you?... the one I downloaded doesn't work :(

Anyone?

I searched my collection of YM pics and found one he must have been doing while training in Extreme Martial Arts... wonder who he taught that secret technique to?:confused:

*edit - removed picture*

Wingman
12-08-2003, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by pseudoswitch
Look (at the 'original' picture :D ) at were the rings are placed. The middle of the arm. If the tan sau were any higher, their benefit would be negated.

I'm wondering why the iron rings did not slide down his arms as he was bringing out his tan sao? Wouln't the rings brush against his chest as he was bringing out his tan sao? Or were the iron rings placed there after he was already in the tan sao position?:confused:

pseudoswitch
12-08-2003, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by Sekabin


You're welcome! Don't suppose you can help me find a clip of YM doing Chum Kiu can you?... the one I downloaded doesn't work :(


Yip man doing Chum Kiu??? :eek: Where???!!! hehe

Wow i would love to have a copy of that video myself. I've only got him doing SLT (the one when he does 6 punches at the end).

Cheers,

foolinthedeck
12-08-2003, 10:23 AM
The reason some schools practice the first section of SLT with tension has nothing to do with chi sau or positioning, its just a training method to develop strength in the arms, the iron rings are an aid to that end. pseudoswitch

i dont want to start another weight training or not question, but surely theres a difference between using TENSION and using iron rings? and 'strength' how is this defined - no, i've gone too far again... dont answer, for anyone interested just search the forums for the word weights, you wont be able to wait...

foolinthedeck
12-08-2003, 10:24 AM
oh,
and what is photoshop?
the pic i posted with more rings was created using microsoft paint. its funny ha ha, but the moral is that the camera can lie.

know thyself.

Phenix
12-08-2003, 11:55 AM
it is not a weight training. it is something else.
it is about Jing or force vector manupulation....

If one use it just as a weight training, then one will lose it.

I wouldn't break down the details here to avoid people claim I "have it too and my sifu teach Leong Jan. a better one then Yip Man) :D


the father IP and son IP are doing same tan but different. :D

Just some thought.

Vyvial
12-08-2003, 12:42 PM
Yip Man doing Chum Kiu Form in whole can be found on Moy Yat's Chum Kiu Tape.

Yip Man wasn't training with the rings.

yylee
12-08-2003, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Phenix
it is not a weight training. it is something else.
it is about Jing or force vector manupulation....

If one use it just as a weight training, then one will lose it.


He was doing "server load-balancing" :D

Not a weight training for sure ;)

planetwc
12-08-2003, 04:52 PM
Steve Lee Swift sells the video tape of Yip Man doing the 2 sets and dummy in the US.

Samuel Kwok sells it in the UK.

pseudoswitch
12-08-2003, 09:38 PM
The link to the video on Samuel Kwok's site is broken:

http://www.kwokwingchun.demon.co.uk/index/merchandise.html

And the video is in German :confused:

IronFist
12-10-2003, 07:41 PM
Originally posted by foolinthedeck
It is possible to lift heavy weights and remain relaxed...


:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This is why it's generally a bad idea to discuss weight training with martial artists.

Toby
12-10-2003, 10:18 PM
LMFAO! :D :D

I almost spat rice all over my screen! Must've missed that quote the 1st time around. Thanks for bringing it up again, Iron.

IronFist
12-11-2003, 07:42 PM
^ What, you mean you can't deadlift 800lbs while remaining relaxed? :D

foolinthedeck
12-15-2003, 11:07 AM
no i cant, nor can i do it tense, i must have missed your point

foolinthedeck
01-04-2004, 11:59 AM
nice quote,
thanks for that my friend, i would argue however that its not true that:


the weight gives the actual resistence of the oppenant's arm pressing on you. Instead of pure imagination

perhaps it is better than imagination alone, but opponents dont just weigh down on your hands, they use energy, force, tension, push towards the centre, push towards the elbows, use on/off of the above and more besides. i like that fact that BL could say that he taught this to YM, we should all keep the beginners mind.

IronFist
01-04-2004, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by foolinthedeck
no i cant, nor can i do it tense, i must have missed your point

I was being sarcastic toward Toby when I said that.

You said it's possible to lift weights and remain relaxed, and I said it's not.

The thing is, even tho you're wrong, I think I know what you meant when you said you can lift weights and remain relaxed. Like if you're doing a dumbell curl, for example, you can curl the weight up and keep the rest of your body pretty relaxed. But you can't do it and keep your bicep relaxed, because by definition it has to tense up in order to lift the weight. It's a bad idea to try and stay relaxed when lifting weights, and I'll explain that in a minute.

As for my deadlifting comment (directed at Toby in a sarcastic manner), when doing a full body lift such as the deadlift, you need to tense up pretty much every muscle in your entire body. There are a few reasons for this.

1. The more muscles you tense, the more power you can generate all over. For example, if you make a fist using only your forearm muscles, it might be pretty tight. But if you make a fist as tight as you can you will notice that your forearm, upper arm, and even shoulder and chest might tense up as well. This is because your body instinctively knows that it can generate more tension by using more muscles at once. The main muscles working to make a tight fist are your forearm muscles, but by also contracting the muscles around them (upper arm, chest, etc.) you are able to contract your forearm muscles even harder. There's a name for this phenomenon but I forgot what it is. Anyway, when doing a deadlift, obviously your legs and lowerback and grip are being worked. But if you consiously tense your abs as hard as you can, your triceps, and your glutes, you will be able to lift more weight than if you didn't.

2. It's safer. Maintaining tight abs and a tight lower back throughout big lifts (like DL, squat, bench press, overhead press, etc.) keeps your body tighter and gives you less chance for injury. If you're pressing a great deal of weight overhead and your lower back buckles for a second, you may drop the weight or worse, you may damage your spine. By keeping your abs and lower back tight, you minimize the chance of this happening.

So, when I said "you mean you can't DL 800lbs while remaining relaxed?" I was kinda making fun of your comment about it being possible to lift weights while remaining relaxed.

foolinthedeck
01-05-2004, 11:07 AM
as usual...
semantics.
it doesnt matter if i am wrong or right in your eyes, i know my truth, if i cant express it in words for you its because its impossible to express anything in words, just what we perceive it to be.

but anyway, i'll argue this with you:


I think I know what you meant when you said you can lift weights and remain relaxed. Like if you're doing a dumbell curl, for example, you can curl the weight up and keep the rest of your body pretty relaxed

that not what i meant. i meant the difference between using a muscle to lift something and tensing the muscle. the proof here for me is that i can hold a barbell up using my bicep and then i can tense and relax the muscle just as i could if the barbell wasnt there. the feeling is the same.
maybe i can do this and you cant, not that i want to be arrogant about it but i can only speak from my own experience.

so i suppose it comes down to semantics of the word 'tense'.


It's a bad idea to try and stay relaxed when lifting weights, and I'll explain that in a minute.

you didnt explain it, you talked about deadlifting. but didnt explain why not to relax, oh well..


The more muscles you tense, the more power you can generate all over

well, maybe when you are p-o-o-ing but not all the time. do you do wing chun? wow, you must still tense through all of siu lim tao chi sao etc etc... sorry if i appear condescending but thats a pretty major statement - or did you mean just for weightlifting purposes in which case same problem - SEMANTICS

etc etc,
why bother arguing... lets just do some chi sao and experience each other directly and now

IronFist
01-05-2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by foolinthedeck
. the proof here for me is that i can hold a barbell up using my bicep and then i can tense and relax the muscle just as i could if the barbell wasnt there. the feeling is the same.
maybe i can do this and you cant, not that i want to be arrogant

I'll let all of it go except for this.

If you're actually holding it up using your biceps, as you said, then you cannot relax your muscle and have it still stay in place, by definition of musclar contraction. It may be possible for you to curl a dumbell up to your shoulder and at the top your biceps is not contracted, but in this case the position of your arm etc. is taking the stress off your biceps. In this case it's another muscle holding it up.

If you still insist that you can lift weights relaxed...

Go take a heavy weight, say one that you can only lift twice before failure. Curl it halfway, so that your upper arm is vertical and your forearm is horizontal. Now, holding it there and keeping it in that position, relax your biceps. You will not be able to.

And even if you say you can do it with light weights, if you were hooked up to one of those machines (I can never remember the name) that measure contraction, you would find that your biceps is not relaxed, even if it feels that way. Remember there are varying levels of contraction.


well, maybe when you are p-o-o-ing but not all the time.

lol. Yeah that phenomenom is apparent is pooing, too :D


do you do wing chun? wow, you must still tense through all of siu lim tao chi sao etc etc...

Yeah I sorta do wing chun, sometimes. Of course it's not a good idea to be as tense as you can through slt, but one must at least acknowledge that tension is what is responsible for the movement.


sorry if i appear condescending but thats a pretty major statement - or did you mean just for weightlifting purposes in which case same problem

You were no more condescending than I was :) When I said it's beneficial to maximize whole-body tension I was speaking about weightlifting (like the deadlifting comment). Obviously if you throw a punch at someone it would be foolish to be maximally tensed. Sorry for any confusion in this area.

foolinthedeck
01-19-2004, 03:28 PM
the story continues...

yuanfen
01-19-2004, 04:32 PM
Hey foolointhe deck if you replaced the Dobie with an Alaskan malamute that would look more familiar... and a couple of years ago you couldda added two samoyeds....
Mush in the desert- aint life fun!

foolinthedeck
01-20-2004, 02:37 PM
i would have if i could have found one!
you cant believe how long it took me to search for 'picture of walking dog' on the internet.
on reflection it would have been so much funnier if it had of been your dog!

Mr Punch
01-25-2004, 05:53 PM
I often do slt with wrist weights (small ones: 1 or 2 kgs), ck with wrist and/or ankle weights, and bj with ankle weights. However, this is simply to increase my stamina and ability to keep my arms up (obviously it is very important in a a fight!).

It is just another aspect of many that I use in my wing chun. I don't think it adds anything to the forms. On solo training, if you have a doubt about slt, practise it. If you've practised it once, practise it again. Then practise it a thousand times. Then a thousand times more. When you are tired of practising slt, you probably need to practise it some more...! :D

But weighted slt is a just different thing to do. Lee's assertion that
Lee via bonetone
as the weight gives the actual resistence of the oppenant's arm pressing on you is however, nonsense. And I would say, surprising from someone with real fight experience, though not from someone with the wish to be a wise and multifaceted teacher :rolleyes:

As fool says

Originally posted by foolinthedeck
perhaps it is better than imagination alone, but opponents dont just weigh down on your hands, they use energy, force, tension, push towards the centre, push towards the elbows, use on/off of the above and more besides. I liked this, fool, but even then it is nowhere near close enough IMO.

It is obvious that the rings are nothing like the dynamic energy of a fighter's push/strike. Further, most fighters I've come across who initiate trouble with a push, push very explosively into your centre (your chest esp) or try to grab your arms and conrol them whilst pushing you backwards or grab your throat with one hand and push you back very very quickly and hard.

The second one of these is where many wingchunners I've met would wish they'd had more experience of grappling/grip breaking techniques. But that's another discussion! In the context of Lee's statement of the rings' constant downward pressure being like an opponent's arms, my answer is simple: if you opponent is pushing down, let your arms go!!! Don't hold him up!!! But, for example, tan to low bong, tan to low palm, tan/fuk to huen to strike! So wing chun's answer to this to me, has nothing to do with rings, or the reasons I practise with weights.

The third, is of course a wingchunners dream: one-handed centreline attack. Though the other thing to remember about this is that somebody employing this attack and not simultaneously whaling you about the head, is probably interested in containing the situation rather than putting you down (unless he's containing it ready to put you down with relish!!! :eek: ), so as such, myself I prefer a wrist/arm lock to an all-out wing chun strike or six. But in the context of Lee and the rings the important thing to remember is that the attack will be very very fast, forward, and not a constant pressure, like the next...

The first is the school playground shove, and has been effective for as long as there have been children. The reasons being as above, and because it doesn't matter if it connects with the chest, the arms, or wherever, it's still designed to explosively push you back with one or two arms. In a way it IS perfect wingchun: the arms shoot forward and whichever one makes contact with whatever the energy changes to provide the shove against the resisting surface.

Anyway, rings are not gonna help you here either, I can only suggest that you practise it a lot in the kwoon. An effective shove is a good if somewhat scary way to establish the bridges and immediately de-linking them again!

BTW
i like that fact that BL could say that he taught this to YM, we should all keep the beginners mind. If Lee could have said he taught this to YM, do you think he would have missed the opportunity!? :D Notice Lee's report of YM's response doesn't mention the rings at all!! The next sentence started with 'thus' and it isn't clear whose conclusion we are being lead to (but I would guess Lee's!)! In fact YM mentions 'the oncoming' (nothing like 'downpessing'!) and if I had to I would have to conclude again that he was in fact disagreeing with Lee!

I'm with you on the beginners mind though.

Mr Punch
01-25-2004, 05:55 PM
I appear to have brought a note of seriousness to an otherwise (unusually for you humourless wingchun buggers!) funny thread!

Don't even know who I'm talking to...

wanders off for a coffee...

Ironwind
01-26-2004, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by Mat
I appear to have brought a note of seriousness to an otherwise (unusually for you humourless wingchun buggers!) funny thread!

Don't even know who I'm talking to...

wanders off for a coffee...

Mat............................................... ......... SHUT UP and TRAIN

:D :D :D
I could'nt resist I'll go spark up something serious.

redtornado
01-28-2004, 09:13 AM
WOW[B][FONT=times new roman][COLWOW
This is great I thought he must train with some wieght????
WOW Yip Man Look at that He's so Relaxed!~!~!!

snakebyte8
09-14-2005, 05:52 AM
wow look at how long Ip Mans arms were. ;)

45degree fist
09-14-2005, 10:50 AM
yip man muk jong ring ( only needed the one)

Chief Fox
09-14-2005, 02:21 PM
I couldn't resist. :D


I removed the photo shop picture of Yip Man.

Liddel
09-14-2005, 04:35 PM
I agree with Mat's call, but i dont use small weights in the forms.
My Sifu has shown me several different types of VT specific weights drills.
Things for improving elbow power, punching power and stepping power etc.

None are using very heavy weights but merely applying a little resistance to certain actions for more benifit. Some can make you faster, or more powerful, without compromising relaxation / tension etc

There are other examples of adding resistance to your training without using actual weights.
I notice some people practice Bui Sao wilst using the elbow, where as when i 'practice' it in form i have my elbow straight and just pivot/rotate my wrist 'only' for greater resistance. (some lineages do it this way all the time in the form)

I also from time to time hold the thin end of my Lok Dim Boon when doing certain actions so as to make the far end heavier thus giving me a greater resistance helping endurance, stance stucture etc.

Mocking the weight 'training' idea only shows a difference of opinion or a narrow mind....
which one are you ? :rolleyes:

anerlich
09-14-2005, 06:31 PM
LOL at extrapolating this photograph into the a political statement or verification of any lineage's approach.

LOL at lifting weights without muscular tension.

Airdrawndagger
09-15-2005, 09:18 AM
I could be wrong but it has been said that the jedi can also lift weights without muscular tension... if only yoda was here to explain how...

Don J
09-15-2005, 10:57 AM
The last pic posted made me laugh so hard, good job on the photoshop.

Lindley
09-15-2005, 02:06 PM
I believe that this was a "photo shot". At the gathering of the 5 grandmasters at the Ving Tsun Museum years ago, the question was posed about using weights during siu nim tao and other Ving Tsun training, brought up as a result of this photo. Their response was that one should NOT use weights.

It is possible that Yip Man was illustrating something with this photo, or caught trying them out. But we cannot assume he incorporated it in his training or that this represents his opinion this is valuable.

In my own opinion, there may be some value of using weights during training but not by the novice.

Good luck with your kung fu....

viper
09-26-2005, 01:44 AM
iv got some proper old footage of him doin the little ideas form and some of him working the dummie hes fast

Phil Redmond
09-26-2005, 11:28 AM
I was just informed by another prominent WC Sifu (not my own), that those altered pictures of Yip Man are distasteful so I have removed the attachment I uploaded. My intent was to show that those pictures don't prove that Yip Man used Iron Rings and in no way was I trying to be disrespectful to Si-Gung Yip Man.
Phil

Matrix
09-26-2005, 05:37 PM
I was just informed by another prominent WC Sifu (not my own), that those altered pictures of Yip Man are distasteful so I have removed the attachment I uploaded. Hey Phil,
I don't know who the "prominent WC Sifu" is, but I agree 100% with his judgement. Poor taste, maybe not by some modern standards, but poor taste none the less. Thank you for removing the image.

Mr Punch
09-26-2005, 10:50 PM
I thought they were funny, not disrespectful in any way and they made a couple of points well.

Oh and btw, he died you know... but when he was alive he just maybe had a sense of humour... :rolleyes:

marcus_pasram
09-27-2005, 10:28 AM
Attention everyone,

Recently, we stumbled across these pictures of SiFu Yip Man and strongly feel it is in bad taste to depict the Late Wing Chun Grandmaster in pornographic and degrading images. We are ashamed that Wing Chun practitioners would engage in this type of public conduct. Grandmaster Yip Man dedicated his entire life to the preservation of Wing Chun. He even spent portions of his life in poverty because he didn't want to teach the wrong people. Eventually, he opened the door to this wonderful Art in Hong Kong and gave it to the next generation. Most of us are Wing Chun practitioners because of his generosity. All of his direct students gave him the highest possible honor and their students consider it a great honor to be a member of his Kung Fu family. It is unthinkable that any Martial Art school would condone this behavoir. Now later Wing Chun generations mock the Late Grandmaster in childish images one would find in bathroom-stalls. This isn't the way to repay his generosity.

Some in the present generation may consider these images to be funny but would they laugh if it were their grandfather, grandmother, father or mother being mocked? There is a set of rules for every Martial Art club that members should observe. The least of which includes the preservation of morality, dignity and respect to society and our elders.

If you feel this behavoir is acceptable, ask your SiFu how funny it is. Ask him/her what is the right thing to do. As Martial Artists, we all have a responsibility to conduct ourselves with honor and dignity.

Sincerely,

Marcus Pasram ( for the Yip Man Wing Chun Kung Fu Academy (http://www.wingchunnyc.com) )
wingchunnyc@gmail.com

Chief Fox
09-27-2005, 11:44 AM
Attention everyone,

Recently, we stumbled across these pictures of SiFu Yip Man and strongly feel it is in bad taste to depict the Late Wing Chun Grandmaster in pornographic and degrading images. We are ashamed that Wing Chun practitioners would engage in this type of public conduct. Grandmaster Yip Man dedicated his entire life to the preservation of Wing Chun. He even spent portions of his life in poverty because he didn't want to teach the wrong people. Eventually, he opened the door to this wonderful Art in Hong Kong and gave it to the next generation. Most of us are Wing Chun practitioners because of his generosity. All of his direct students gave him the highest possible honor and their students consider it a great honor to be a member of his Kung Fu family. It is unthinkable that any Martial Art school would condone this behavoir. Now later Wing Chun generations mock the Late Grandmaster in childish images one would find in bathroom-stalls. This isn't the way to repay his generosity.

Some in the present generation may consider these images to be funny but would they laugh if it were their grandfather, grandmother, father or mother being mocked? There is a set of rules for every Martial Art club that members should observe. The least of which includes the preservation of morality, dignity and respect to society and our elders.

If you feel this behavoir is acceptable, ask your SiFu how funny it is. Ask him/her what is the right thing to do. As Martial Artists, we all have a responsibility to conduct ourselves with honor and dignity.

Sincerely,

Marcus Pasram ( for the Yip Man Wing Chun Kung Fu Academy (http://www.wingchunnyc.com) )
wingchunnyc@gmail.com
Macus, I apologize if I have insulted you, the memory of Yip Man or any other Wing Chun practitioner.

I agree with your comments about responsibility and conducting ourselves with honor and dignity". But IMO, I feel laughter is also very important. There is never a bad time to laugh. Of course, I've never met Yip Man but I have to believe, based on the discussion of this thread, that he would have laughed when he saw the picture. The picture wasn't meant to dishonor a great man. It was meant to poke fun at some of the speculation in this thread.

Again, I apologize if I have insulted you. I've removed the picture.

Brian

Mr Punch
09-27-2005, 09:40 PM
Recently, we stumbled across these pictures of SiFu Yip Man and strongly feel it is in bad taste to depict the Late Wing Chun Grandmaster in pornographic and degrading images.Where was the pornograhy? In what way were these images degrading?
He even spent portions of his life in poverty because he didn't want to teach the wrong people... Most of us are Wing Chun practitioners because of his generosity. I would guess he also spent portions of his life laughing at Bruce Lee's stunts (even the ones that supposedly lost him money) and WSL's sense of humour among other things. You are denying him the generosity of his spirit by denying him human traits, and just honouring his photo in your kwoon does not honour not the real man himself. It leads to semi-deification and is not healthy.


It is unthinkable that any Martial Art school would condone this behavoir. Now later Wing Chun generations mock the Late Grandmaster in childish images one would find in bathroom-stalls.I completely understand your position, as you are a high-ranking individual with a public face, but that's not to say I agree! No martial arts schools are condoning this behaviour, you are chastising individuals for their actions.

Plus you are ignoring the intention behind these images. They were not made to ridicule Yip Man.


Some in the present generation may consider these images to be funny but would they laugh if it were their grandfather, grandmother, father or mother being mocked? There is a set of rules for every Martial Art club that members should observe. The least of which includes the preservation of morality, dignity and respect to society and our elders. I appreciate Chinese cultural values, but I'm not Chinese, and I have to remain faithful to my cultural values also. These include a GSOH, a dedication to some degree of freedom of speech and action, and a healthy disrespect for political correctness and the status quo of whatever 'governing class'. I do not think these are at odds with Chinese cultural values either... the Chinese people I've met and are friends with and drink with would probably agree with me.

So yes, I would mock my grandmother (though she may have chosen to have beaten me for it - she was a hard woman!) and I firmly believe that although the Confucian ideals you're espousing would condemn me for it, the common history of many revolutionaries, rebels, freedom fighters and criminals who would have made up the martial arts classes of China would have no problem making fun of theirs either!


If you feel this behavoir is acceptable, ask your SiFu how funny it is. Ask him/her what is the right thing to do. I laughed so I know how funny it was. I don't ask my sifu (or my dad, or anyone else) before I go to the toilet either.

Mr Punch
10-15-2005, 09:33 AM
So we had the edict then Mr Pasram?

Just wondered...

Mr Punch
10-22-2005, 09:10 PM
Hi Marcus, looks like we're both online again.

I was seriously wondering if you'd considered responding or if you feel it is below you in some way, or just not a serious enough issue, or whatever...?

marcus_pasram
10-22-2005, 09:57 PM
So we had the edict then Mr Pasram?
Just wondered...

Hi Mat,

I expressed my opinion on the images and respect other's opinion on the matter. Lol at the thought I issue edicts. I'm a WC student like most ppl here and would prefer to discuss WC with open minded people sans the politics, trolling and other diversions.

Mr Punch
10-22-2005, 10:05 PM
Hi Mat,

I expressed my opinion on the images and respect other's opinion on the matter. Lol at the thought I issue edicts. I'm a WC student like most ppl here and would prefer to discuss WC with open minded people sans the politics, trolling and other diversions.

/MarcusWith respect, it doesn't look like you want to discuss anything.

I wasn't trolling, I don't get involved with politics and I am obviously open minded otherwise I would have dismissed your first post (which I obviously disagree with intensely, although I can understand and have some respect for your position) with vitriol and ad hominem. There was none. I was genuinely interested in your answer to my points, which I feel are valid and important to us as martial artists and representatives of traditional martial arts in a modern ever-changing world... as valid indeed as your criticism.

You are obviously not open-minded enough to enter into a discussion with somebody whose opinion differs from yours, which is what I suspected having seen you online several times, without deigning to answer, hence the 'edict' joke.

Fair enough, now I know what kind of person you are, I won't bother you any further with legitimate issues!

Mr Punch
10-22-2005, 10:12 PM
Incidentally, thanks to the many people who have PMed with their support in this issue. I wasn't looking to start a storm, just wanting to hear from the people who hold this somewhat quaint world view and want to enforce it on others, so I was quite surprised when I got so many messages supporting my POV.

Strangely, neither the people who agree with Mr Pasram, nor the people who agree with me have thought to respond in public on the thread.

While I live in Japan so I understand this attitude I sometimes think it's time we moved on from this boys whispering in the locker-rooms kind of adulatory attitude and enjoyed some kind of adult debate (ironically given the obvious seed of this thread!).

Sigh. I'll leave it here in the safe hands of the thought police.

marcus_pasram
10-23-2005, 04:19 AM
You are obviously not open-minded enough to enter into a discussion with somebody whose opinion differs from yours, which is what I suspected having seen you online several times, without deigning to answer, hence the 'edict' joke.

Fair enough, now I know what kind of person you are, I won't bother you any further with legitimate issues!


:( ... oh well. *shrug*


Incidentally, thanks to the many people who have PMed with their support in this issue. I wasn't looking to start a storm, just wanting to hear from the people who hold this somewhat quaint world view and want to enforce it on others, so I was quite surprised when I got so many messages supporting my POV.

Strangely, neither the people who agree with Mr Pasram, nor the people who agree with me have thought to respond in public on the thread.

While I live in Japan so I understand this attitude I sometimes think it's time we moved on from this boys whispering in the locker-rooms kind of adulatory attitude and enjoyed some kind of adult debate (ironically given the obvious seed of this thread!).

Sigh. I'll leave it here in the safe hands of the thought police.

meh

Sekabin
10-23-2005, 06:59 AM
:( ... oh well. *shrug*



meh

Hmm... seems to me you've just proved his point?? :confused:

Matrix
10-23-2005, 06:19 PM
Incidentally, thanks to the many people who have PMed with their support in this issue. I wasn't looking to start a storm, just wanting to hear from the people who hold this somewhat quaint world view and want to enforce it on others, so I was quite surprised when I got so many messages supporting my POV.Mat,
Support of the masses does not legitamize a POV.
As I said before, the image is jeuvenile at best, but certainly disrespectful. It's not pornographic, just immature and contemptuous. This has more to do with common courtesy than it does with being politically correct. While you may find it "quaint", in my naive way of thinking, the world might be a better place if we were genuinely more respectful of each other.

Ah, what the hell, who gives a rat's .... :rolleyes:

Mr Punch
10-23-2005, 09:21 PM
Support of the masses does not legitamize a POV. I didn't suggest that it did. Read my lines, not between them: I was thanking the people who'd written to me and expressing surprise that they had and that they'd taken the trouble to write but hadn't posted on the thread in public.

I wasn't suggesting it gave 'legitimacy' to my opinion. But since you're talking about respect, how would you figure that I needed somebody else to legitimise my POV? Why does my having a different sense of humour to you (however juvenile you may deem it to be in your wisdom... I'm not even going to go into cultural aspects of what makes something funny) make my point any less legitimate?

The image is disrespectful? News for you bub, so's 90% of comedy.

How are these images contemptuous? They are illustrating a couple of points, primarily that anyone can doctor an image (which has a greater bearing on MA legitimacy in general esp to the general public in terms of the legitimacy of the arts and their creation stories, let alone one generation ago's lineage politics BS).

And they were made/posted by people who have maybe invested as much into the preservation and furtherance of this art as you or Marcus... who I'm sure weren't feeling contemtuous in any way towards Yip Man.


While you may find it "quaint", in my naive way of thinking, the world might be a better place if we were genuinely more respectful of each other.

Ah, what the hell, who gives a rat's .... :rolleyes:I agree about the respect. What I find quaint is that you people are more willing to defend iconography and the mythologised and dehumanised legend that Yip Man and his legacy have become than to address a different opinion.

Do I take it that you saying let's be more respectful and following it up with who gives a rat's ass was ironic? Cos frankly sunshine, I find your humour offensive [/sarcasm].

Which is more respectful? Deigning to accept another's POV or lionising an image? I've got more respect for Yip Man and his living tradition of wing chun than any of you clowns and your edicts. If a POV isn't worth defending it isn't worth having.

Even though this is a small point it's indicative of the h0mogenised knee-jerk BS that's stifling traditional arts and keeping them the preserve of geeks and wannabe Confucian gentlemen.

If you don't give a rat's ass, you wouldn't have made the comment in the first place. And if you don't give a rat's ass you can **** off with your disrespect and go read that link Marcus posted about trolls not seeing interaction on the net as real interaction, and give us your backward PC BS again.

Matrix
10-24-2005, 04:46 PM
I didn't suggest that it did. Read my lines, not between them: I was thanking the people who'd written to me and expressing surprise that they had and that they'd taken the trouble to write but hadn't posted on the thread in public.That's very thoughtful of you. So you want to show respect, but only to those that agree with you. That's an interesting approach.


But since you're talking about respect, how would you figure that I needed somebody else to legitimise my POV? Why does my having a different sense of humour to you (however juvenile you may deem it to be in your wisdom... I'm not even going to go into cultural aspects of what makes something funny) make my point any less legitimate?.IMO, when "humor" comes at the expense of someone else, it's not really funny. Too much of today's comedy is in that vein. I think it degrades us all when we mock a fellow human being. Color me naive.


The image is disrespectful? News for you bub, so's 90% of comedy.Once again, you seem to think that because it's popular, then it must be correct. 90% or 99.99%, it makes little difference. BTW, my name is Bill, not Bub.


How are these images contemptuous?It shows open disrespect for someone. But hey, I would hardly expect someone to understand when they think that mocking their grandmother is something to brag about. Once again, I am old fashioned in that regard.


What I find quaint is that you people are more willing to defend iconography and the mythologised and dehumanised legend that Yip Man and his legacy have become than to address a different opinion. "You people"??? yes, let's marginalize each other into little groups of "us" and "them" that should make things better for everyone. :rolleyes:


Which is more respectful? Deigning to accept another's POV or lionising an image? I've got more respect for Yip Man and his living tradition of wing chun than any of you clowns and your edicts. I think you're confusing me with someone else. I have made no 'edicts', just expressed an opinion that is different from yours. Just because I don't see eye-to-eye with you does not make me a clown. Or is my opinion less valid then yours?


If a POV isn't worth defending it isn't worth having.On that we can agree.


Even though this is a small point it's indicative of the h0mogenised knee-jerk BS that's stifling traditional arts and keeping them the preserve of geeks and wannabe Confucian gentlemen.Sorry Mat, you lost me there. I haven't got a clue as to where that came from.


If you don't give a rat's ass, you wouldn't have made the comment in the first place. And if you don't give a rat's ass you can **** off with your disrespect and go read that link Marcus posted about trolls not seeing interaction on the net as real interaction, and give us your backward PC BS again.Hey, you ask for commentary and then you flip out when you don't like what you're reading. I don't know Marcus and my opinion is not in total alignement with his. It's irrelavent to this discussion.
Please keep in mind that not everything modern is necessarily progress. That's just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

Mr Punch
10-25-2005, 04:46 AM
That's very thoughtful of you. So you want to show respect, but only to those that agree with you. That's an interesting approach.That is a fairly common human failing, and if that is what you have perceived in me maybe I need to reconsider what I wrote. But I will say, I was perfectly respectful to everyone on this thread until yourself and Marcus showed a lack of respect for ideas that opposed yours (of which is what you've just accused me, and those who found the images funny). As for thanking the people who'd written to me as in some way being 'proof' of my disrespect, I would say that is ridiculou: would you have me thank the people who didn't write to me too?! :D


IMO, when "humor" comes at the expense of someone else, it's not really funny. Too much of today's comedy is in that vein. I think it degrades us all when we mock a fellow human being. Color me naive.No, I agree. I still fail to see how these images are actually mocking or disrespectful to Yip Man.


Once again, you seem to think that because it's popular, then it must be correct. 90% or 99.99%, it makes little difference.Once again you're reading between the lines. I stated a made-up statistic to present an oft-stated truism! I did not state that I thought this to be a morally acceptible condition. My point was that since humour and respect are both highly subjective concepts just stating that something is disrespectful does not make it a fact; it remains an opinion. Thus I wanted somebody to explain that opinion to me.


It shows open disrespect for someone. But hey, I would hardly expect someone to understand when they think that mocking their grandmother is something to brag about. Once again, I am old fashioned in that regard.Quite. I don't understand. Again; how is it disrespectful?

And BTW, I didn't brag about mocking my grandmother, I stated. It is again your inference that I was in some way bragging. It was also, in case your literalness has prevented you from catching this, a feeble attempt at humour through overexagerration. Funny, and usually you seem to be so keen to read between the lines... or did you really think my grandmother would have beaten me? And don't give me some trite 'well I don't know who you are over the internet' kind of spiel: how likely was it really?

The point about my grandmother was agin to illustrate that different people have different boundaries of tolerance to humour. Again, this does not necessarily mean that we were disrespectful or that in some way our moral regard is less than those who don't share the same view. As you said; YMMV.


"You people"??? yes, let's marginalize each other into little groups of "us" and "them" that should make things better for everyone. :rolleyes:

I think you're confusing me with someone else. I have made no 'edicts', just expressed an opinion that is different from yours. Just because I don't see eye-to-eye with you does not make me a clown. Or is my opinion less valid then yours?Admittedly, the 'you people' was a bit of a cheap shot, but by 'you people' I mean 'people who mythologise and dehumanise Yip Man (especially through iconography)'. There are, in case you hadn't noticed, certain common traits that enable humans to categorise other humans in order to better understand human nature (and to summarize differing opinions so we don't get down to describing the colour blue in every discussion!)... often it's very wrong, but don't tell me you don't do it either!

The clown part was also cheap, and born out of exasperation: we are accusing each other of the same thing, disrespect of others' opinions.



As to the part I lost you on, it was a comment about the attitude of some people to assume an image of the trappings surrounding MA which ultimately reflects badly on MA and its practitioners. Admittedly, if you genuinely didn't find the first view of the first of those altered images on this thread as even slightly amusing, this doesn't apply to you.

I wasn't 'flipping out' and I'm still not flipping out.


Please keep in mind that not everything modern is necessarily progress. That's just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.Again, your inference. I haven't made any suggestion as to the relationship to era, only culture.

Since we appear to agree that disrespect is bad, and that respect of others' opinions is both important and something we think each other is lacking in, it only remains for someone to answer me my original question which was how these images are disrespectful (or contemptuous, or pornographic, or degrading or any other synonym) in this context (and therefore anything other than a difference in opinion and therefore to be respected).

So, now we have clarified everything until it is pointless...

and so this **** thread can die (unless one of the mods would be good enough to lock it... :rolleyes: )

How are these images in this context disrespectful, degrading, contemptuous or pornographic to Yip Man or his memory?

That will be all thank you (bangs head on wall).

Matrix
10-26-2005, 06:00 AM
I was perfectly respectful to everyone on this thread until yourself and Marcus showed a lack of respect for ideas that opposed yours (of which is what you've just accused me, and those who found the images funny).Please show me where I showed lack of respect to anyone's ideas. I don't think you should lump me in with Marcus. This is not a black-and-white issue, but there are many shades of gray.


As for thanking the people who'd written to me as in some way being 'proof' of my disrespect, I would say that is ridiculou: would you have me thank the people who didn't write to me too?! :DI did not say that the thanks were expressed to prove disrespect, only that it was meant to support your position. You could have just as easily thanked them directly in a reply to their PM. Besides, it's no big deal either way.


I still fail to see how these images are actually mocking or disrespectful to Yip Man. That's the crux of the issue. It's subjective. I fine it juevenile, but that's my opinion. If you don't think it's disrespectful, than I wonder if you find it respectful of any individual. I would ask that you replace the person in image with someone you do respect. Would you feel the same way?


My point was that since humour and respect are both highly subjective concepts just stating that something is disrespectful does not make it a fact; it remains an opinion. I agree with this statement. It's my opinion. Not a fact. I think I stated very clearly that was the case, if not that's my error. Others may have put it differently. Don't lump me in with them please.


So, now we have clarified everything until it is pointless....
Yes, let's just leave it at that. :)
Thank you for being so civil. :cool:

Sincerely,

Mr Punch
10-26-2005, 07:13 AM
That's the crux of the issue. It's subjective. I fine it juevenile, but that's my opinion. If you don't think it's disrespectful, than I wonder if you find it respectful of any individual. I would ask that you replace the person in image with someone you do respect. Would you feel the same way?The one picture I thought was a little off was the one with Yip Man's neck elongated. The mutation aspect of it I found a little distasteful and was against the initial point of the discussion. As for the rest, no problem with Yip Man or anyone I know of better, love more or respect more deeply.


Yes, let's just leave it at that. :)
Thank you for being so civil. :cool:

Sincerely,And thank you sir :) .

Matrix
10-26-2005, 04:27 PM
The one picture I thought was a little off was the one with Yip Man's neck elongated. The mutation aspect of it I found a little distasteful and was against the initial point of the discussion. Mat,
That's interesting. I think we all have idiosyncracies that cause us to react in markedly different ways to the certain images. It's not always logical. In fact I think we often respond in an emotional way and reverse-engineer a "logical" response to justify our position. We're funny creatures, aren't we. :)

Take care,

Sekabin
10-27-2005, 07:44 AM
Well, after reading that Mat was offended by the picture I posted, and thinking that there may be others too, I've decided to remove it.

I think we can understand what's been going on by thinking about how many people feel when their family is insulted. Often it's ok to make fun of your own relatives, but you don't feel quite so comfortable when other's do it for you. For many of us, our training in WC contained giving respect to each other as a family and to the former relatives. Some teachers ask their students to bow before photographs of their Sifu and/or their Sifu's Sifu. We may call this ancestor worship or whatever, but the fact is that it has great meaning for some people, just as having photos of a deceased family member has great meaning for people.

I understand both sides of the situation, and I don't think they are mutually exclusive. We should be careful, in this age of great historical and social studies, not to raise people onto a pedestal too high that when facts are discovered they fall too far. But similarly, we should be respectful of other's feelings and beliefs within reason.

Right, sorry for the diversion into other aspects of WC (this thread could actually be interesting)... back to the usual squabbling. ;)