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mantis108
12-06-2003, 01:48 PM
I shared some of my thoughts on my forum about the dawning of Kung Fu, which in my mind is specifically referred to martial arts that are affiliated with Shaolin Temple. Martial arts in China that are not affiliated with Shaolin would be Wushu in my terminology.

Since on the other thread we put the poweress of the Shaolin monks in question, I think it is a good time that we take a good look at what kind of a role Shaolin has to play in the TCMA world.

In the future, I will attempt to explore the relationship between Shaolin and Northern Praying Mantis based on the following.

I put my original text in bold and make further comments underneath:

This week on history channel, there is a series called "Deadly Arts". Shandy, my student, taped 2 episodes for me. One of them is Kalaripayattu, which I paid special attention in an attempt to make some sense out of it. I am happy to say that the result is a radical theory on the origin of Shaolin Kung Fu. I must fore warn that this is only a early stage of this theory so don't take it seriously as much research still have to be made.

First off, this theory is to develop and hopefully determine the role of Bodhidharma in the development of Shaolin Kung Fu.

1) It is believe that Bodhidharma as a Brahmin warrior class person skilled in a version of Kalaripayattu.

2) He eventually reached the Shaolin temple around 527 CE and would have resided outside of the temple. One account said he faced the "cave wall" for 9 years. Another spoke of him having a "hut" or bungalow nearby the temple. Teaching the monks to be physcially fit and to meditate.

After seeing the tape, it occurs to me that it is entirely possible to fit both accounts into the following:

Bodhidharma could have built his own small Kalari (training hall) measuring 18 x 9 which would also be a dugged out mud pit with a cover (the hut) that was common to most Kalari even today. This would fit both facing the wall account and the hut. The 9 years are significant in the sense that it gives the size and time of the operation (quite short).

Kalaripayattu, both a figthing art and healing art often function as villages' defense headquarter, clinic and spiritual council. This is vital to the survival of rural life in the past. In a sense, it is like a miltant variaty of missionary. This we can see a parallel in southern China village's Kung Fu Kwoon which often flashing the Shaolin Banner.

Bodhidharma was perhaps the most "bloodiest" of all the Ch'an or Dhyana master in Chinese budhist history if the story about him was true. I believe it has to do with him being a Brahmin warrior background. So the stories basically reflected that to a varying degree.

The intuitiveness of live and death can only be thoroughtly understood by someone who has brushes with death. (ie a warrior). The stir but not shaken resolve against violence is unique to Ch'an Budhism and later on embraced by the Japaness samurai as Zen.

The importance of establishing this is that I believe Kalaripayattu was perhaps the mother style or genetic blueprint of Shaolin Weito Men (Gardian warrior division) otherwise known as Liuhe Men (6 harmonies division). There was an account of a kitchen help (an indian possibly not living within the walls of Shaolin) during the Yuan dynasty (1206-1368) saved the Shaolin temple from rebel army raid. This monk used a stick which is one of the basic training weapons of Kalaripayattu. So this would suggest that some form of Kalaripayattu could still be practiced arround the temple during Yuan dynasty.

There is also an account of martial arts was "revived" within the walls of Shaolin arround the same period of time. The notable thing is that the renowned five animals fists of Shaolin were likely born during this time. Kalaripayattu has 8 basic animal stances including horse, rooster (doesn't this remind you of mantis stances?), elephant (Shaolin ten animal includes this), etc... There are also basic stretching and basic kicks that bore similarity to Mantis' Ya Tui (leg pressing) and Lui Tui (running legs).

There is also the oil massages piror to practice similar in theory that is documented as part of the Shaolin Tongji Gong procedure. There is a book about basic training in Kung Fu that cover this subject by a Taiwan martial artist Wang Feng Ting.

The most important thing is that Shaolin Liuhe Men has weaponary practices in theory and in methodology almost identical to Kalaripayattu. ALL WEAPONS ARE BOTH SOLO AND 2 PERSONS AND ALL "DRILLS" ARE MIRROR DRILLS WITH EXACT IMAGE. This is echoed with the Liuhe Men sticks, saber, spear, etc... The clips in the show fully supported this. Each stage of practice reinforces the next which suggests a highly structured training system.

We know that Shaolin had its own army, which could have used the Liuhe Men/kalaripayattu type of trianing, during the Ming dynasty. This is why we see the popularity of Liuhe Men weapon training all over the place especially in the army. General Chi's work reflected that. However, due to the lose of capable people during the battles. We can only see Liuhe Men in parts but not as a whole. I also think that it is possible the General Yue Fei in Song dynasty might have come across the kalaripayattu influence. Styles such as Eagle Claw, Xingyi (has animal forms too), etc... were acredited to him. But that's another thing to look at.

This is where I think the accounts and legends of Shaolin lay desciples come into play. According to an account, there was a county in Fujian province called Yong Chun which I suspect was where the Shaolin troops, the so-called lay disciples, along with the monks (numbered up to a 100 some possibly 128) stationed. It would seem that San Jian, San Bu Jian, San Bu Tui, etc... could have been the basic hand form/exercise that the troops and monks practiced along side with the weapons. BTW, San Jian (three extensions or 3 arrows) would later becomes forms such as Tit Sin (iron wire) and Sanchin (3 battles). It is possible that temples in and around that region would accommodate some of these veterans later. It is also entirely possible that one of these temples in the Putin region in Fujian got renamed (not build) as Shaolin which was said to have included a Yong Chun Hall. It was eventually destory by Qing authorities. I believe that the style names Hung gar, Wing Chun, Yong Chun, Baihe, Tanglang (southern), etc were associated with this to a different degree. Hung gar was designates by a lay disciple after his family name. Yong Chun/Wing Chun most likely named after the troops' station. With cautious speculations, Baihe and Tanglang could very well be a designation for a specific company of soliders or a password (with the help of hand forms as well) to identify each other.

Here comes the part of Shaolin Luohan Men (Arhat division). It is a rather late comer as compare to Kalaripayattu (mother of Liuhe Men) to Shaolin. But it's influence is perhaps more profound. It is believe that Fuju monk (late Song dynasty) was the one responsible for it's creation. It would seem that he gathered 18 hand to hand combat styles, ALL OF CHINESE ORIGIN, to create an authentic Chinese martial art. Given the political climate at the time this would be a reasonable move to boost Chinese moral and patriotism. The project was rather short lived but managed to influence the development of Kung Fu in a meaningful way. It laid the foundation and provided documentations of Discipline Cross Training in Chinese martial arts history. Now Luohan is adsorb into other styles such as Hung Gar, Wutzu, Myjong Luohan, etc...

It is also here that we find a paradigm shift in the approach of martial arts training. The focus seems to be less of a military type of training but of personal growth.

The influence of Kalaripayattu is much more diluted. The original 5 stages of training (Maithari, Kolthari, etc) is now shorten to 3 which is as follow:

1. Body contral exercise as compare to Maithari
2. Unarmed Combat with lethal blows as compare to Verumkai/marma adi
3. Special internal training (this is somewhat compare to Hindu roots of acquiring Sakti through asceticism and austerity and such acts). In a way, it is gaining full control of the body-mind continuum.

It is important to note that Qi and li has a propotional correlationship at this time in history. Only in Late Qing and Republic era, we see that Qi and li became fully seperate entity; hence, draws the line between internal and external arts.

Traditional Mantis (northern), which is not to be confused with Wang Lang's Tanglang (could be much more ancient), is believed to be based on this structure as expounded in Fuju's manuscripts.

to be continued...

mantis108
12-06-2003, 01:50 PM
Shaolin was known to be somewhat politically involved in Chinese history ever since Tong dynasty (618-906 CE). Shaolin during Song, Yuan and Ming, 3 dynasties became even more political active. Only in Qing dynasty, it became more or less suppressed. But Shaolin showed its defiance on its own terms. The result is the wide spread of Shaolin Kung Fu both of battle field arts and pugilistic arts.

So it is IMHO that Liuhe Men or Weito Men would be older than Luohan Men. Liuhe Men would be also a battle field art while Luohan Men becomes a pugilistic art. Luohan Men is Chinese based due to the political climate at the time; whereas, Liuhe Men is either born of or heavily influenced by Kalaripayattu. But make no mistakes, neither traditions took hold within the wall of Shaolin which remains today a Budhist temple. We can only say that these traditions only affiliated with Shaolin and took on the Shaolin name just as many other styles including NPM are today.

Whew... That's more than a mouthful. =)

Anyway, please feel free to comment.

Warmest regards

Robert

PS Incidently, I think I gained another appreciation into the application of the 12th road of 18 Lohan after viewing the tape. The use of the elbow is a throw as you have shown before but I think it would be more effective and deadly when the grab hold is arround the neck not at the elbow of the opponent. The show is really worth the time to digest.

We must recognize that other Chinese martial arts were developed independant of "Shaolin Systems"

now let the stone casting begins! :D

Mantis108

swordshadow
12-07-2003, 03:30 AM
Mantis 108,

I think your letter creates a nice hypothesis on the development of the styles. Personally I have trained Pak Mei pai and Hung Ga Kuen more specific, so I jump directly to the Fukien – Guangdong text.

The relation between San Jian – San Bu Tui – San Zhan and Tie Xian Quan, is a model I can find myself in completely! It is inline of the oral tradition from my branch and the conclusions of my researches over the last 15 years. My compliments about bringing this text as a thread. Looking forward to other participants replies.


I remember too that Kalaripayit (Way of the Warrior series (BBC), showed that most techniques were “Cheung Ma, Cheung Kiu” or “Long Hand, Long/ broad Stances”. In a same way as the LoHan techniques are executed. So that part is pretty close too.

Oso
12-07-2003, 09:35 AM
mantis108, do you know the exact name of the series?
sounds like it would be worth ordering.

mantis108
12-07-2003, 02:51 PM
Hi Swordshadow,

Welcome to the thread and thanks for compliments. :)

It is so nice to meet another Bak Mei stylist. Lung Ying and Bak Mei were my first styles. Now my main focus is in NPM. I believe their histories and characteristics help a lot in completing a clearer picture of the evolution of TCMA in general. Personally, I found some remarkable similarity between Lung Ying and traditional Mantis namely Taiji Mantis. Anyway, I think CMA is about evolution and it will keep evolving. Because of that we have to remember where and how we started. Otherwise, we would be like a boat travelling in a circle yet not knowing that we have gone through the same path twice or more. Reinventing the wheel is not really true attainment IMHO. Research and study would help eliminate that and bring forth real enligthenment. I am so glad to hear that you have researched on San Jian, etc... If you don't mind sharing your journey of the research and elaborate on the finding, I would love to hear about them. I am sure other members here would be interested as well. Thanks

Hi Oso,

The show is called "Deadly Arts". My student thinks it is only on History Channel (Canadian) for the time being. The host is a female MAist from Quebec. There are about 6 episodes (Capeora, Kalaripayattu, Savate, Aikido, Muay Thai, and Karate) in the series if I not mistaken. I think you are right. If it is on video, it's worth the money to get a hold of it for research purposes.

I didn't care for Capeora much. But I got a better understanding of the Jinga which is essential to their art. It is kind of interesting to see that one of the old master did a throw from the Jinga. The host got thrown yet the react/expression of the master looks as though he was surprised that he did it (with much ease). I couldn't help but think why would a master look like he never have thrown someone like that before?

Kalaripayattu is just plain awesome and a must see.

I was quite impressed with the Savate focus mitts drills. It was very fluid and beautiful to watch. I can see why Bruce Lee included Savate in JKD blue print.

Aikido is interesting in that it's almost like watching a Hollywood script in which master A of the Grandmaster kept to the "roots" and stay humble and all; while the heir, master B, to the system is surrounded by luxury and power. Their development are so different and it shows in their skills. The flavors are vastly different eventhough it is unmistakenly the same system. I think the saying that circumstance affects personal growth is not without ground. You are what your choices are. There is much lessons to be had just in that alone.

I am looking forward to this week's last 2 episodes. Will let you know my thoughts on them if you are interested.

Warm regards

Mantis108

SevenStar
12-08-2003, 11:23 AM
Good thread. As a sidenote, capoeira is full of takedowns. There have been some posted on other forums in the past. I've got some clips too.

just curious - why are you considering styles associated with the shaolin temple as kung fu, and those not associated with it as wushu?

mantis108
12-08-2003, 01:53 PM
Thanks. :) If there is a way to see the clips that you mention, it would be great.

I believe the general preception toward Kung Fu out there today doesn't not accurately reflect the full potential of what Kung Fu is.

The term martial arts, which literally is Wushu in Chinese, IMHO put on limits to Kung Fu. Wushu is a board and general - an umbella term. Kung Fu is more specific not only in the history and cultural aspects but also distinctive in the path of personal growth via a 3- folded approach. It is a way to seek intuitive harmony between the body-mind continuum with the reality (the space-time continuum). This synchornizing is a dynamic balance achieved with the help of spiritual bearing (Ch'an to be specific), Understand and compassionate about human anatomy (healing), para-ritualistic practice (martial arts, daily chores, etc..). The most emphasized is the spiritual bearing. It has to be direct, intuitive and consistant. Such mindset is often labelled as Normal Mind. This normal mind is applies to para-ritualistic practices, both in martial arts and in daily chores (Kung Fu). The idea of embodying daily chores as the conditioning phase of martial and spirtual practice is in my mind the most innovative idea first incoperated by Shaolin institution which overtime became the synonym of Ch'an Buddhism in China. If we look at the out come of Fuju's work, the Arhat division, we can clearly see how this 3 aspects reinforce each other as a whole and as a system. Truely this is literally the path (Kung Fu) of becoming an Arhat (the worthy one). We can say that the Arhat is in the Kung Fu and Kung Fu is in the Arhat.

Now Wushu is a skill. A military skill to be precise. Anyone can learn this skill to maim which is the prime objective. A soldier would have to have this skill if he were to survive. To subdue or to maim another person is well within his job discriptions. He has no other obligation whatsoever other than following his orders and objectives. Modern sports are born of this type of culture and mindset. Things that a soldier or an athlete strives for are adventure, fame, fortune and glory. In other words, a dream to be had. There is a price to paid but also a prize (in whatever form) to gain. Arguably, that's personal growth too. Unfortunately, one may be superior in skills but not necessarily supreme in ideals. It is a case of fallen angels (pun intended).

So to me Kung Fu remains Kung Fu and Wushu is Wushu.

Hope this answer your question. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

MantisifuFW
12-08-2003, 02:53 PM
Mantis108,

Thank you once again for a well thought out and concise definition on Wushu and Gongfu! I always learn so much from your posts.

I am still processing on your main topic...(a lot there).

Sincerely,

Steve Cottrell

Young Mantis
12-09-2003, 08:17 AM
Mantis108,

Like SevenStar, I too find it interesting that you only refer to the arts associated to Shaolin as being termed kung fu and all others wushu.

If I understand your reply to him, you associate the daily chores at the temple, the incorporation of them into the training of the mind and body, as being what is called kung fu. You seem to imply that there are the Shaolin practitioners and everyone else falls under the category of soldier. And if I understand this further, that what sets these two groups apart is the spiritual and mental conditioning that is combined with the physical training. That all other practitioners of martial arts not Shaolin are only practicing wushu as a military skill and no spiritual.

If there is Shaolin (Chan Buddhist) and all others soldiers, how do you account for the martial arts of Taoist origins? Mo Dong (Wu Tan)? O-Mei? If I am not mistaken, even Kwun Lun. To my knowledge and please correct me if I am mistaken, these schools were not associated with Shaolin, were not Chan Buddhist, nor were they considered soliders that trained to simply maim or kill seeking only fame and glory.

I do not mean to offend but I find your statement quite striking as it leaves out many schools of TCMA that do not pass through Shaolin.

YM

mantis108
12-09-2003, 02:03 PM
Hi Sifu Cottrell,

You are much to kind. *major blushing* I sincerely thank you for all the support and encouragement. You are very inspirational and a true friend. Please feel free to comment on the subject since I know you have spent quite a bit of time on it as well.

Hi Young Mantis,

Great questions. No offense taken. I welcome all inputs and comments. :)

I believe there is a metaphor for martial arts community in China, which we call Wulin (Mandarin) or Molum (Cantonese). Wulin is the martial forrest. There are plenty of trees including some giant ones like Shaolin, Wudang, Omei, etc... I believe that from time to time we need to trim the trees in order for the forrest to be healthy. What's more is that we need to keep a record of these things. Much of the records have been lost, but with the help of technology we should be able to make a more comprehensive one. I am merely examining some of the material available.

Sometime wild fire (new trends) happens and can consume much of the forrest and we would not recognize the forrest or each tree for what it is. I think such a wild fire did happened during the Song and Yuan dynasties. Song dynasty is a very interesting time in Chinese history in that China became relatively weak in the affairs of the state but the metaphysical advance of its people grew relative stronger and stronger. Scholars were more philosophers than mystics. Even mystics were behaving more and more like philosophers. Taoists argued that Buddha and Laotze are the same. Taoists should be granded right to take over all temples. This arguement was successful by Yuan dynasty. They gained control over a lot of the temples. If I am not mistaken, it included the Shaolin Temple. Although later the decision was over turned and everything went back the way it used to be. I believe that influences when both ways during this turbulant time.

If we accept Zhang San Feng as the founder of Wudang pugilism, then we will have to accept the legends of his learning both Buddhism and martial arts (Kung Fu) from Shaolin. In other words, Wudang would be an off shoot of Shaolin. If we don't accept Zhang San Fang then I would love to hear the other theory of origin of Wudang pugilism.

Omei is an interesting case since there are styles (ie Bak Mei, etc..) from there that claims to come from Shaolin or affiliated with Shaolin. I think it is rather beyond the scope of this thread to speculate about this at this point.

If we examin carefully, much of these systems use long fist protocol (developed via Shaolin) that is in my mind has its influences or even origin in India martial arts such as Kalaripayattu.

Kung Fu is a term that permeates Chinese culture. No one or no instituation will be able to claim sole ownership of the term. So there is no law whatsoever to prohibit the use of it. However, I must stress the point that we should strive to be more precise and specific as we becoming more and more involve in the study of TCMA. It is IMHO that the proposed theory demonstrates the appropiate steps that establish the definition and the use of the term Kung Fu as the martial arts created, developed, or evolved directly or indirectly through Shaolin tradition. Personally, saying Wushu is like saying I am an Asian person. But saying Kung Fu is like saying I am a Chinese person from HK (or whatever part). It is more specific. In that case, people won't be surprise that I function well with 2 cultures (Chinese and British); just the same that people won't get confused I function well with Ch'an as a spirituality and pugilism as an art that both are practiced as a whole not seperate entities. The goal is for personal growth not personal gain (financially, etc...) in turn this personal growth can help benefit the community in a meaningful way (sparks the commnuity growth).

As for generalize the rest of the TCMA mindset as soldier mindset, it is IMHO that Wushu as a skill has its beginning in hunting and military enterprises. That is as ancient as human history. Demographic shift happened as social structures becoming more developed and mature. It became Sports (modern wushu included). Tournament and whatnot were and still today are for sharpening these skills although much of it has rules and regulations to minimize injuries. As I have pointed out in the above post is that it is about a price to pay and a prize to gain. It is a form of personal growth and there is nothing wrong with that neither. From a Buddhist POV, this would be well within the wheel of Karma which is endless suffering as well. I don't think I would like to spend time to study something that brings about endless suffering. If it is somebody else cup of tea, by all means go for it.

Having said all that, whether someone wants to call his/her TCMA as Wushu or Kung Fu that's upto him/her. There is nothing wrong in that. As for myself, I will remain using Kung Fu and I will decline others using Wushu to describe what I do. It is my personal choice that's all based on the reasons listed. I don't intend to walk others' paths for them.

Warm regards

Mantis108

PS I am sorry that this thread somewhat failed to include and address other systems. Please feel free to explore that.

B.Tunks
12-09-2003, 10:36 PM
Another couple of small points worth mentioning perhaps;

much of the historical links between chinese fighting arts and Shaolin Si are pure myth and were made long after the system's creations.

The groupings of Wudang, Emei and Shaolin are much too broad, over-simplified and convenient (but are definitely worth mentioning as entities).

Most of the fighting systems of the Chinese minorities developed largely independant of Shaolin, particularly the very significant Muslim martial arts (which have inbtern influenced Shaolin), which most likely have their ancient routes in Xinjiang or even further, Persia.

Even Mantis Boxing may have developed totally independantly of Shaolin and be a completely indigenous system of Shandong Province. (For the record I cant swallow the whole Fuju story, but that's another very long and boring story)...

Though I agree with 108 that it is a matter of personal favour with the generic naming of Chinese Boxing (my all time favourite name of chinese fighting arts), the term Gongfu/Kung Fu was never used to describe fighting systems outside of Guangdong and Fujian Provinces and even then is a only recent development. These days it is more widely used in the west than anywhere else.

I can tolerate Gongfu, Wushu, Guo Shu, Chuan Shu, Chuan Fa and so on as umbrella terms because none of them can really matter once you get down to the specific systems such as Tanglang, Chuojiao, Baji etc.

B.T

SevenStar
12-10-2003, 08:52 AM
I tend to prefer the short strike protocol of training over the longfist - SSP seems to lend to faster progression. Why do you think the LFP became more popular?

mantis108
12-11-2003, 02:56 PM
Hi Sevenstar,

Good question. I am still working on that part of the theory. I would think that there are multiple reasons for LFP to become more popular than SSP

1) It is highly structured; therefore, easier for students to grasp.

2) It is also easier for the teacher, whom might not be always patient with the less able students. Solo practice is easier on both parties.

3) It fits Chinese mindset and culture to the T.

4) Forms are like books and sutras which serves as contianing the system's truth, preserving knowledge and culture of the system and style. Records of pass masters' achievements and inovations, promoting devotion of practitioners, creating special value (sometime commercial sometime sentimental).

5) Forms means standardizing and formalizing, which makes it possible to teach them to the masses. At the same time it allows individuality and encourages creativity. This also help broadening the demographics.

6) Teachers has more control over the transmission. It could mean a long term meal ticket to some.

And possibly more....

Anyway, you get the idea. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

Laviathan
12-12-2003, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by mantis108
[b]Shaolin was known to be somewhat politically involved in Chinese history ever since Tong dynasty (618-906 CE). Shaolin during Song, Yuan and Ming, 3 dynasties became even more political active. Only in Qing dynasty, it became more or less suppressed. But Shaolin showed its defiance on its own terms. The result is the wide spread of Shaolin Kung Fu both of battle field arts and pugilistic arts.

Great post :)

I would like to point out that after the early years of the Tang Dynasty, the name of Shaolin became obscure. During the Period of Five Dynasties, Northern and Southern Song Dynasties, the area of Wutaishan became the most famous school of Buddhist martial arts. It was only until the Ming Dynasty that Shaolin's fame began to grow and eventually Wutaishan lost its' importance.

Tainan Mantis
12-19-2003, 09:31 PM
sc guy,
Interesting statements. Please help me understand.

1. How do you conclude that mantis originally comes from the 6 Harmony(mantis?) system?

2. What is the oldest known factual reference of 6 Harmony being used in relation to MA?

3.What is the oldest known factual reference of 6 Harmony being used in relation to Mantis?

4. Do you a imply a relation between the Hui and Mantis? If so, what is that relation?

Thank you for taking the time to answer.

mantis108
12-20-2003, 02:27 PM
Hi Brendan,

Great points. :) I agreed that Fuju story more or less needs to be taken with a grain of salt. But then that material did created a stir in TCMA community across the board. Lots of system borrowed the ideas. So, I think it would be prudent to examin it thoroughly and exhaustively. This way we will definitely prove its authenticity. It is better than just discard it. For the wisdom that is contained in that work, it is hard at least for me to turn away and say it is of little use.

Hi All,

I have stressed the point that there are Kung Fu, which are CMA systems and styles that affiliated with Shaolin. It begins in the proximity of Henan Shaolin (not necessarily in the temple itself), further mature and develop with the illusive Fujian Shaolin, and eventually spread out to the world. In other words, Henan Shaolin is the craddle of a specific concept of CMA training known as Kung Fu. We can call all the rest and even Kung Fu part of Wushu; however, it would not IMHO be accurate to describe All Wushu being Kung Fu. I don't think many of the Wushu (including modern wushu) people would want to do so neither.

Fujian Shaolin (subsequently Guangdong martial arts communities) without Henan Shaolin is something that is without a past. the myraid of systems and styles that came out of Fujian Shaolin are the future of it.

As long as we remember the pass and develop the future, TCMA be it Wushu, Kung Fu, or whatever labels you prefer, will never be stagnant. That really is the spirit and the exercise of this thread.

As for Mantis, it is quite possible that it is indigenous to Shandong. Personally, I found 3 possible threoies of origin.

1) It came from an ancient style known as Tanglangquan of Wang Lang. It has ties with Henan Shaolin. Eventually it was brought to Shandong.

2) It was a creation of Wang Lang with the help of Taoist monks in Laoshan mountian in Qingdao, Shandong.

3) It came from a version of the possibly banned art know as Huaquan (flower fist) popular in Jiangsu and Fujian provinces during the early Qing dynasty. GM Li Bingxiao brought it back to Shandong from arround those regions and further developed to what is known as Taiji, Meihua, Taiji Meihua, etc... today.

Theory 3 is my own "pet theory" and I have submitted some of the supporting statements through out this thread.

Longkou (dragon mouth) and Jiaoyao (beckon afar) are 2 of the many counties in Shandong that have PM. These two are thought of as the birth place 6 Harmonies PM. Longkou (nearer to the coast) is more famous in that it is more city like while Jiaoyao (nearer inland) is more rural like. GM Lin Yongchun was a native of Jiaoyao. Incidentally, GM Liang XueXiang was said to have taught at or had student in Longkou.

Warm regards

Mantis108