horse to bow - where to pivot

[Falcor]

When you guys do stance change of Horse stance to Bow and Arrow stance, do you pivot the back leg on the heels or on the balls of your feet? Why do you do what you do?

I've been taught to pivot off the heel to propel my body mass forward (to dig into the ground with the heels) but now I am being taught (different teacher) to pivot off the balls of the feet. I would like your perspective

[Water Dragon]

Depends on what you are trying to do. Do you want to throw or punch? Or do something else.

[truewrestler]

Balls of feet except in forms

[Dim Wit Mak]

The balls of the feet. Kicking is a bit quicker for some people when they use the heels.

[Fu-Pow]

You start by pushing off the heel of the foot. At some point you have to "release" the heel slightly to let the force continue up your body. At the point your heel releases you are turning the foot on the ball.

If you push off with the ball of the foot then you are probably going to be a bit "over committed." You see boxers do this when they are looking for the knock out punch. If they connect then great but when they miss they usually throw themselves off balance and it takes a second to regain that balance. An eon in fighting terms.

[Scythefall]

Heel, otherwise you have absolutely no root during the transition. That's why emphasis is placed on twisting exercises such as "Lion playing with the ball" and the twisting exercises you see in the latest Shaolin Special. Same is true when you're practicing side punches, or chops, or "shoot and pull" exercises. You can't grab my collar and pull me on the balls of your feet.

[Thundermudd]

Im going with the ball of the foot. It adds more mobility to the transition. I also think that hen you are pivoting on your heel that you are more suseptable to being pushed backwards. Being on the heels gives you less root.

[Scythefall]

You all do realize that he is saying pivoting from a horse stance to a bow stance, right? I'm really shocked that so many of you are claiming that twisting from a horse to a bow should be done on the balls of your feet.

There is absolutely NO root if you are on the balls of your feet. And there is absolutely no release of the heel when turning.

Not to mention, if you're lifting your heel and turning, you're going to inadvertantly and unavoidably widen your stance. I'd get a kick out of seeing some of you doing the splits by the end of a twisting session. There's also the stress on the knee & unnecessarily having to slide your feet back into position. This isn't opinion, it's just plain fact.

Not to try and start fights or anything, but how many of you that said balls of the feet actually go to a kung fu school?

[Falcor]

well, the explanations I've gotten for the two are:

Heels: when you pivot from hore to bow, you want to "dig" your rear leg into the ground. Since you don't actually do that, what happens is that as you twist, the digging sensation actually translates into a forward energy that gets rebounded off the ground and into whatever you're doing. Also, having the heel as pivot means you're foot is flat so = better root.

Balls of feet: In order to generate a greater twist in your pivoting motion for better chansujing type energy, your rear leg has to generate a more of a corkscrew action. This is better with the balls of feet as the pivot becasue pivoting off the heels does not allow for the greater range of motion with the feet. Also, your're not supposed to lift the heel, but allow it to drag on the ground, generating frictional resistance which will rebound and add to your chansujing.

Actuality: I've found myself using the balls for dynamic pivoting, i.e. when I am basically going from some fighting stance to a version of the bow stance when I punch as I move during sparring, but when I am close in enough to have crossed bridges and is in contact with my entire arm or shouler or torso, my techniques come off the heel. Nothing consciously planned, but it happens that way. I'm not sure if it's becasue I train in both versions of the pivoting or if that is the way the human body just normally works...

[apoweyn]

This isn't opinion, it's just plain fact.

Not to try and start fights or anything, but how many of you that said balls of the feet actually go to a kung fu school?

Actually, that is opinion. Unless you can provide qualitative data regarding how much smoother your transition is than everyone else's, that is.

But then, if you could do that, I doubt you'd be resorting to questioning whether those disagreeing with you actually train at a real school.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Scythefall
Heel, otherwise you have absolutely no root during the transition.

I gotta agree with this fella...

[SifuAbel]

I don't know about anybody else. In my school our bow is much longer than our horse. The back foot doesn't do anything, it stays put(the toes can come in a few degrees). The front foot isn't really going anywhere either. What should be happeneing (at least the way we do it) is that the back leg is extending and the front foot is displaced forward by the length of the extending leg.

[Buddy]

Hmm
Rooting on the heel will get you pushed (or worse) over. Try rooting into the arch. Have a partner push and put the weight on the arch, heel, and ball..see what happens. Just try it before commenting. Here's another. Try walking on the heels and balls of the foot, see which seems more mobile. Root to the arch and turn on the balls of the foot. But I'm a Bagua guy. My horse and Bow are pretty much the same length.
Buddy

[chingei]

Maybe you're talking about two different things. I believe the question was just about while pivoting.

[Oso]

'pivot on the arch' is the closest answer to mine so far.


unless I'm in a more specific stance like cat(ball of foot only), snake(toe only) or mantis 7* stance(heel only) then I distribute my weight 60% to the ball of the foot and 40% to the heel. That way I have a good mix of stability (root) and mobility.

imo, you get caught mid pivot on your heels you will soon end up pivoting on your ass.

even in a bow n' arrow/hill climbing you should not have more weight on your heel than the ball of your foot. the heel is down and provides structure to the entire platform but you must move the weight to the ball of the foot before you can move that back leg quickly.

[chingei]

Seems there is a variety of teachings on this matter

[Oso]

imagine that !!!

;)

[RAF]

Part of the answer lies in knowing what you are doing with the upper body, also knowing the application, and also what the kuahip/waist area is doing.

If you go to:

http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/index.html
{You need to got to Articles--->2 baji articles, Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Article #1} No direct link.

Article 1 Pictures 2A through 2E, you might find that the entire foot rotates and if you are punching to with your right some of the distribution, although rotating the entire foot, focuses on the right heel while the entire left foot simultaneously rotates but the weight distribution is more towards the ball of the foot. Although the entire foot remains on the ground, the weight distribution is not even during the rotation.

the toes of the right heel are not lifted and the heel of the left is not raised. Its not a double-weighted rotation of the foot and some of it depends on how relaxed the kua/hip area is and how it is sunk. Its like pushing a basketball down in water. While the feet both remain on the ground, the weight distribution is not even during the rotation.

You might scroll up to see the type of horsestance used in this movement and you might note that the punch of the outward fist is driven but the power of the arm driving back. Its a rotated but balanced twist and achieved primarily by a lot of repetition over a long period of time.

I don't know whether this is unique to the baji system I understand but it works. In the two man set, both partners square of in a horse-stance and end up punching at each other shoulder or one can block and rediret the punch to the shoulder area.

I don't know if this captures it.

[Bluesman]

Since our bow stance is wider than our horse stance we have to step into the bow, not just pivot into it.
I push off with my back foot and then pivot on my ball and plant the foot. I have the foot planted before the front foot has come down from the step and again I push off for a little forward motion. There is a lot of little stuff going on that I never really noticed untill I got up and did it.
There can be some confusion on what is occuring with the different responses. The whole foot staying planted with weight on it while turning could take out the knee. I know that is not what was meant.

[truewrestler]

This reminds me of an article in Black Belt Magazine about 5 years ago (when I actually read it occassionally) written by a karate guy explaining the correct way to walk. "Tense your outside muscles and slide your foot forward in a C motion while gripping the floor with your toe" BLAH BLAH BLAH....It really just doesn't matter.

What exactly are we discussing right now? Something that doesn't really matter in my opinion... especially when compared to actual combat and/or competition as a whole.

I never was told how to transition from horsestance to bow-and-arrow or vice-versa and I can tell you that in my hundreds of matches in highschool wrestling competition and practice it didn't matter one flying bit. When you practice (i'm not talking about forms) you learn to do it right and the way that is best for you in different situations and for different moves.

...and that is all I have to say about that

[SifuAbel]

OK hero, thanks for your opinion , now get lost.

[truewrestler]

:rolleyes:

You are always so negative SifuAbel. Would you like to talk about something that's bothering you? I'll listen

[Shaolinlueb]

i use the front part of my foot and eventually use my whole foot and waste to pivot. put your hips into it too so you can get that snap.

[Ralphie]

I never was told how to transition from horsestance to bow-and-arrow or vice-versa and I can tell you that in my hundreds of matches in highschool wrestling competition and practice it didn't matter one flying bit. When you practice (i'm not talking about forms) you learn to do it right and the way that is best for you in different situations and for different moves.

lol...do you play softball, too? That'll give you the expertise to tell everyone how to play soccer. Here's a lesson in logic for you: Compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. High school wrestling is not CMA. However, here's something that you might like, if you position your knee behind your opponent's, you can trasition to a bow and the delivery ends up a nice hip toss. I've only done that in sparring with CMA but not in wrestling practice, so it may not work. :rolleyes:

[chingei]

Originally posted by truewrestler


I never was told how to transition from horsestance to bow-and-arrow or vice-versa and I can tell you that in my hundreds of matches in highschool wrestling competition and practice it didn't matter one flying bit. When you practice (i'm not talking about forms) you learn to do it right and the way that is best for you in different situations and for different moves.

...and that is all I have to say about that


What the hell kind of wrestling were you doing that you needed horse stance to bow-and-arrow transitions?

[truewrestler]

Thanks for your response Ralphie.

I wasn't trying to be controversial with my post. I'm just trying to add to the debate by saying... find what works for you in practice for the specific techniques that use this transition. I think I expressed that in my last post in maybe the wrong way

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by chingei
What the hell kind of wrestling were you doing that you needed horse stance to bow-and-arrow transitions? Exactly my point...

[MasterKiller]

Exactly my point... Then I guess we should all convert to HS wrestling! Soon, the UFC will be dominated by HS coaches.

[chingei]

Originally posted by truewrestler
Exactly my point...

Then your point doesn't seem overly relevant to this post, unless I've missed something...(not unusual)

[truewrestler]

lol, no.. that wasn't my point

There are many ways to do everything that are just different

I really need to start organizing my thoughts better before posting so they come out more clearly

[chingei]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Then I guess we should all convert to HS wrestling!

The world would be safer, as most HS wrestlers are not so hot.

[MasterKiller]

lol, no.. that wasn't my point

There are many ways to do everything that are just different

I really need to start organizing my thoughts better before posting so they come out more Don't back track now, TW. You're on a roll.

Your originial point was that such talk is useless because you never needed to worry about these transitions in your HS wrestling days.

I'm eagerly awaiting your next argument about how learning to punch is useless because you never needed to punch someone to pin them. It should be very enlightening.

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by chingei
The world would be safer, as most HS wrestlers are not so hot. I'm offended :p

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Don't back track now, TW. You're on a roll. Backtracking? Sure... if that's what you call clarifying something I said that is being taken differently than what I meant

Do you think a consensus will be reached in on this thread or does the answer even matter?

[truewrestler]

Sorry if my post hijacked your thread Falcor

[MasterKiller]

Backtracking? Sure... if that's what you call clarifying something I said that is being taken differently than what I meant You compared this discussion to an article in BB on how to walk properly, in effect saying that the discussion taking place was pointless.

If that was not you intention, please clarify for me what you original point was in posting that statment.

[Falcor]

No problem. I never get offended or riled up about internet forum posts anymore.

You do bring up an interesting point that in real life usage, you never do it exactly like textbook. But then again, when you're training you've gotta start somewhere. I think of it as doing those in-text problems in physics books where you're given a frictionless surface or some such. Real life is not that simple, but those sample problems often help you to understand the principle behind the thing.

Anyway, what I was after is what other people use - different people in different arts do the same things differently. Sometimes they may seem totally contrary to each other, but they make sense within their internal order of logic. So far I've heard some neat discussion on the heel v. ball-of-feet v. arch. Keep it coming!

[truewrestler]

Master Killer, I understand the problem now. I was not saying that the techniques using the transition was pointless... just this discussion was without context.

[truewrestler]

cool Falcor, some of my posts can get people riled up and that is rarely if ever my intention.

What do you train?

[Judge Pen]

I don't remember being taught any specific way to make this transition, but I noticed that I did it while pivoting on the heel and then shifting my weight to the arch and ball while projecting forward into my bow stance. This felt the most natural and I didn't feel like I was sacrrificing any speed while doing it.

[Knifefighter]

What is the fighting application of this pivot?

[mortal]

At my fake monk government issued wushu school we do it on on the balls of our feet.

[Indestructible]

Some pivot with both heel and toe while transferring through stances. For example, if you are turning to the left your left foot should pivot on the heel and the right foot should pivot on the toes. This prevents your back foot(right in this case) from getting buried and gives you a slightly wider base so you don't do the tightrope wobble thing. Anyone else do this?

[Becca]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
i use the front part of my foot and eventually use my whole foot and waste to pivot. put your hips into it too so you can get that snap.
Hewph! I was starting to wonder if I was understanding what you guys were calling Bow-stance.:p I Don't really pivot, per say. It's more of a snap of the upper torso. Do it fast enough and with good persision, you end up in bow. Do it wrong, it looks more like 5-star. {shrungs} 'S how I do it anyway.

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
What is the fighting application of this pivot?

Depending on the system/teacher of course, it can be (for example) a way of training power generation, of getting the body and feet into the striking.

Also, people are talking of pivoting in place, but that's just one way to shift from one to the other. You can step from one to the other, with either foot (though, of course there will still be pivoting going on, but it sort of takes care of itself). IMHO, this is key to actually realizing how these stances work in application. Step with them, don't stand in them.

[Oso]

indestructible: I can't read anything you say w/o hearing Bender's voice. :p

you'll get my vote for best audiolization at the KFM Grammy's.

[Indestructible]

Originally posted by Oso
indestructible: I can't read anything you say w/o hearing Bender's voice. :p

you'll get my vote for best audiolization at the KFM Grammy's.

My evil plan to conquer the world is finally taking place!
MMMMWWWHHAHHAHHHAAHAHA.... cough,cough ah ha ha

[Gargoyle again]

I'm also a member of the wise and exalted "pivot on the heel" crowd.

What was said earlier is true, you maintain your root thru the stance shift if you pivot from the heel. You lose root pivoting from the ball.

If you would join me in getting up from your chair and setting yourself into a nice solid horse stance, we'll do a little group participation. Ignore the looks from those in the neighboring cubicles and humor me.

Test #1: Pivot from the heel as you sloooowwwwwly transition to a bow stance. Notice how your lead knee maintains its position over your root, feel how solid and nice your stance is throughout the transition. Notice how your center of gravity flows smoothly forward with the transition, enhanced by the strong yet graceful line of your foot-ankle-knee-hip. Bliss.

Test #2: Pivot from the ball of the foot, and slooowwwwwly transtition to a bow stance. Notice how your knee twists unnaturally during the transition. Notice how much tension and force are being wasted in your lower leg as it actually tries to counteract the shift in your center of gravity as it moves forward. You are actually retreating your forward point of stability as you move your weight forward! Notice how you have had to temporarily "lift" your root and resettle it as you finish the transition. Listen to the rustling as 1000s of former Shaolin Monks roll in their graves in despair at your weakened stance.

[mortal]

I guess I meant a pivot centered in the middle of the foot.

Later in training this transition becomes an important part in generating power with weapons.

[Shaolin-Drunk]

Wow, we just had this conversation at our kwoon.. And it is better at the heel!