What do/don't you consider as being "Shaolin" ? [Archive]

GeneChing

12-09-2003, 10:16 AM

It's all Shaolin, if you're going to put faith in the Bodhidharma legend. Where I draw my distinction is the lineage. Even the maligned Shaolin-do can stake a claim as long as they draw some lineage. Sure, sure, we can go into the dog-faced monk and all and whether you beleive it or not, but the same scrutiny can be applied to any lineage - we all have skeletons in the closet, maybe not dog-faced monks, but skeletons.

The important distinction here is just that. For example, there is Songshan Shaolin - the curriculam that is actually practiced at Songshan today. There is also Bak Sil Lum - northern shaolin - does that have Chan? Well, marginally, as much as anything can have Chan. Many of the southern styles like Hung Gar, Wing Chun etc. draw their lineage to Shaolin, so they could call themselves Shaolin Wing Chun if they want.

One of the fundamental teachings of Buddhism is not to be possessive of the teachings. So to be possessive of the name Shaolin misses the Chan. Now this gets complicated, especially with the current movement from the temple to trademark Shaolin. Their stance is that there were products that defied Buddhist principles bearing the Shaolin name, the most frequently cited was Shaolin sausage. You know, to this day I regret not keeping a Shaolin sausage wrapper, just for posterity. Anyways, this raises the question of where to draw the line in the sand, often a tricky problem for any religious doctrine. It boils down to a schizophrenic contradiction in the application of Buddhist principles: non-possessiveness vs. compassionate diet. What's the solution? Time will tell.

Songshan

12-12-2003, 08:55 AM

yeah, it can be considered all Shaolin. I like the way you put it Gene. There are a lot of schools that consider themselves Shaolin and don't have the "chan". It either makes it or breaks it.

GeneChing

12-12-2003, 10:18 AM

I remember all the kids would buy that Shaolin sausage whenever they had a little extra cash - their bodies were probably craving protein. It can in these little plastic tubes, kind of like a pepperidge farm sausage but the size of a mini hot dog, and looked sort of like spam. I was too freaked out about food in those early years to try it. I did try Shaolin mineral water - in fact, I have an old label from one of those ubiquitous plastic bottles. That's was pretty good actually. The seals were strong so you knew you were getting clean water and it seemed to be more refreshing than the other brands. That's probably just brand loyalty on my part ;)

Mind you, there are still Shaolin products available, both official and illegal. The newest official one is Shaolin Tea (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/70600.html). I'll give you all a little tip, just ofr the Shaolin forum loayl - we are not going to carry Shaolin Tea any more. Tea comes under food tariff and with the cost of transportation, customs, etc, plus the shelf life, it will be discontinued. Once we sell out, we won't restock. Too bad, it's a good product. Personally, I don't think it's that flavorful as Chinese tea goes, but I can be a tea snob after being spoiled by some of the monks who cultivate tea as a Chan discipline. But the containers are sure cool. Anyways, if you want one and don't think you'llbe going to Shaolin soon, better grab it now. It won't last.

Tainan Mantis

12-13-2003, 01:25 AM

Chinwoo-er,
Why not Mantis?
Even the Shaolin temple supports that Fuju invited 18 masters to Shaolin around the beginning of the Song(960-1279) Dynasty.
The styles and names of teachers were preserved at that time.
This is in Shaolin records as well as Mantis which has preserved an in depth version of the old manuscripts.
The dates and stories can't be verified through normal historical channels.

Though all undateable the writing style as well as choice of characters suggest great antiquity.

After the Song, Shaolin MA fades from the spotlight, not to appear until middle to late Ming(1368-1644).
Here is where the fame of Shaolin stick fighting starts.
The story of Shaolin stick can easily be traced to the Yuan(1260-1368)(maybe earlier by others)when written material appears.
The originator of Shaolin stick-we are talking Yuan legend here-was a cook who used his stick to beat invading bandits.
The legend later claims him to be Jinnaluo.

It has been rewritten at different times with different names and details though.

Shaolin's big fame with the stick began in the Ming with the manual Exposition of Shaolin Stick(one of the best and most important CMA books ever written).
Though there are also verifiable accounts prior to this of the greatness of Shaolin stick.

The Longfist derivitives such as Hua Chuen, to my knowledge, aren't mentioned until Chi Ji Guang's military training manual of mid Ming dynasty.
Though it first appears in the alleged Fuju's account of 18 masters.

In this book other styles such as Eagle Claw are also mentioned.

A book on Shaolin published in early Ching(1644-1911) but with roots to late Ming gives a different picture of Shaolin pugilism.
This book details Mi Chuen, which, to my knowledge, is not practiced by Shaolin temple anymore.

Scythefall,
The methods descended from Shaolin are vast.
Many legit schools of Shaolin can easily not include any of your mentioned requirements.

To determine if the MA is genuine Shaolin:
-Prove to some extant the date of Fuju's 18 masters and clearly show where the descended over the past hundreds (thousand?)of years.

-Show how a master studied at Shaolin as in ngokfei's case.
-anymore?

rik

12-13-2003, 08:23 AM

Tainan Mantis
Good post, I was planning to
sit down and do a post myself and will do so in the near future. As you point out
Shaolin's fame (including todays interest) was the result of generations of lay-practioners from many different schools and traditions keeping its name alive over many, many centuries.

r.

mantis108

12-13-2003, 02:18 PM

Frankly, I always have reservation about Fuju's manuscripts.

1) The name of Fuju needs to be verified. I have seen 2 characters of Ju in Chinese. One character means "resides" which seems to be the more popularly used. The other is "gathering" which is not as common. Do we know for sure that Fu represents the generation? If it does, which generation (time) was he? We need that info to verify with others.

2) We know for sure that 18 styles listed Song Taitzu as the first and foremost style. This indicates that the work has to be much later than 976 and must be sometime after Song Taitzu's death because the title was given posthumously as custom required.

3) there are at least 2 names, Yinching and Lin Chong, who appeared in a Ming dynasty novel "water margin" which set the story timeline arround 1100 CE. Some people claim that Water Margin was based on an uprising that happen in Shandong but the time was late Song arround 1200s. Assuming that these 2 did exist and the time mark would be arround 1200s. This we can cross check with Fuju's generation.

4) How and when did this text gets into Mantis system and other systems? It is said that this survived a 1927 CE a raid of the Shaolin temple. So is this being reprinted and became popular arround the 30s and 40s amongst the CMA community?

There are quite a few things that remain unanswered about this text. The best we can do is to approach it with care.

Mantis108

blooming lotus

12-13-2003, 02:42 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chinwoo-er
[Internal arts I would not consider.

QUOTE]

lol

...and this dude thinks he's practicing kungfu...

bwahahahahahahahaha

blooming lotus

12-13-2003, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Scythefall
Basically, for a school to claim Shaolin lineage I look for the following:

1. Temple Exercises - Muscle/Tendon Change, Golden Bell/IronShirt, traditional warm ups.

2. Forms to include Longfist and the Shaolin 10 fist sets. You should also have a healthy availability of animal forms.

3. Tai Chi. Meditation, and Chi Gung to be emphasised for well-rounded training.

Some of my earliest learnings were that the kung fu is only part of being Lohan and I came to understand that rather quickly.

there are alot off shaolin schools world wide, including in deng feng. Shaolin school gong and true shaolin temple gong are often through subleties very but definately different. Think about that. It's the 100% no muck about , every day, second and movement dedication that makes shaolin what it is....... (how many of you are sincerely prepared to give that)...At the temple, to be recognised as a martial monk you need to have comitted to buddhism firstly, being this is what shaolin kung fu was born from (so needing to understand and practice that to "claim" shaolin gong), then..... of those buddhist practitioners claiming discipleship, there are several levels of duty, acknowledgement and appointment (who might I add now don't even need full indocrination, taking soft option, lacking comittent, coprimising integrity , honour ( yes..I said that)and qi (does buddha ask too much?!?)

This is not JUST religious dogma ( especially and ironically considering this is a religion that has no god). When you comprimise these standards of necceissty through either ignorance or arrogance, you comprimise your qi..do not have to practice hard qi gong and cease to perpetuate through high level cultivation. I am wearing slack here from people who can't look truth in the face...but truth and I are very good friends and I will stand reguardless...because I will help the weak and I will ( as all ch'an buddhists do) and I will renounce my nirvana for evoloution of humanity as is the nature of this branch of mahayana. Still wish to claim.........????? Neehao to you and welcome again to the story of the universe.

Shi guolin ( shaolin-overseas.org/) and xing ping(americaneuropeanshaolin.com) have very good information on their websites, as does russbo.com. These are open for access. Pls see also www.goju-ryo.com.info/links and/or www.kunfu-taichi.com for some good links and reads.

fruitful journeys to all

blooming lotus

Scythefall

12-13-2003, 09:57 PM

You know Blooming Lotus, I just failed to realize that when I was typing it out. The transition into Chan, for me, was such a natural development, I can't even recollect that I made a concious decision to live that way. Initially, I was just your standard hard kung fu student, but the aggression in the training caused me to look to meditation and chi gung for balance. Obviously, meditation isn't just something you do, so I went with Chan and Zen meditation because it just made sense. I had problems here at home with my girlfriend who is a recovering alcoholic, and I was beset by intense anger and frustration. My Sifu gave me a Buddhist prayer and told me to get a mala and he showed me how to go through everything. It was all so subtle, the way it came into life, I didn't realize how vital a component it is. Or how powerful.

blooming lotus

12-14-2003, 04:39 PM

sorry to hear about your apparent misfortunes.

Let me get this straight, you were a "standard hard kung fu student " yet you hadnt found ch'an or qigong....sure you were

as for me not meditating...obviously genius:rolleyes:

Shaolinlueb

12-14-2003, 04:57 PM

what about the kung fu around before shaolin? :confused:

Scythefall

12-14-2003, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by blooming lotus
sorry to hear about your apparent misfortunes.

Let me get this straight, you were a "standard hard kung fu student " yet you hadnt found ch'an or qigong....sure you were

as for me not meditating...obviously genius:rolleyes:

I don't quite understand the rolling eyes thing, except maybe you have an ego problem and think everything revolves around you:) Sorry, you misunderstood when I said "Obviously, meditation isn't just something you do, so I went with Chan and Zen meditation because it just made sense."

To spell it out for Blooming Lotus, "Meditation isn't just something *someone* does..*a person* has to have some idea what to do, so i turned to Zen and Chan. "

Sorry, but I was agreeing with you:) I don't agree for a second that Chan or Chi Gung is that vital for Kung Fu training. Kung fu can be treated just like any other sport, and is probably just as effective. I've proven that on the street. Chan is new to me, but fighting is not. I can say that my quality of life and the way I view training has changed since I took up the spirituality, but I'm not going to say it makes or breaks the training. Discipline is discipline.

blooming lotus

12-14-2003, 09:40 PM

Look discipline IS discipline, Kungfu is NOT sport(that would be wushu. It is shame so any put so uch into something that amounts to what? Best of the best of best sir? sure. The rest of the arguement is not even worth having. To be honest I don't care if you evlove personally or not and you'll believe whatever you decide no matter the facts or who's telling them. It's obvious we view life differently and I need not spend this way. Good luck with your gong and happy research to all.

Brad

12-14-2003, 10:28 PM

Chinese martial arts have been used for sport long before modern wushu existed, and has been practiced & perfected by many who didn't practice chan. Not sure what the defenition of "qigong" is, but I consider holding stances/postures and learning proper breathing a simple version of qigong, and I haven't come across any Chinese martial art yet that doesn't do this. Can't quite figure out what the argument is all about :confused:

Scythefall

12-14-2003, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by blooming lotus
To be honest I don't care if you evlove personally or not and you'll believe whatever you decide no matter the facts or who's telling them.

Is that the essence of your Chan? Instead of admitting you misread something and came off as a sarcastic whatever, you drive home the point with apathy? It's not important, nor is the sport or not sport issue, but sometimes its best to agree to disagree. Especially when you've obviously misinterpreted someone elses statement. And the fact that, yet again, you have tried to take something to a personal level...well, you can imagine what that does for your original statement.

It's kind of like "I said my piece. I'm Chan Kung Fu and I can't read..watch me get defensive about it" and then people start getting scared. Don't scare people. I like most of your posts, I just didn't realize you were touchy like that. I wouldn't have said anything if I knew you were going to get all mad.

Vash

12-14-2003, 11:03 PM

Your avatar sucks.

canglong

12-15-2003, 03:05 AM

It must include Ch'an (zen).
It must include healing practices.
It must include Martial arts practice.

I couldn't agree more our study even uses the term the three treasures of Shaolin (http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/loewenhagen/3treasures_c.php) to describe this study. I train Hung Fa Yi Shaolin Wing Chun and and HFY traces its roots back to the Southern Temple roots (http://home.vtmuseum.org/genealogy/hung_fa_yi/family_tree.php) . What I am finding is even if you don't have your own personal definition of Shaolin before you take up a martial art those arts that incorporate the three treasures of shaolin into their core of study will have an easier time of tracing their roots back to Shaolin or being defined as shaolin because their cha'n roots will make it self evident. In HFY our kung fu is derived from the Cha'n teaching and training methods of Tin Yan Dei Saam Mo Kiu or heaven man earth and their three existing brindges of reality wandering, aware, and focus as such this is something to be expereinced more than discussed but consistant with all cha'n/zen teaching saam mo kiu enables a pupil to recognize what is real is applicable to both life and combat situations this is the essence of Hung fa yi shaolin wing chun kuen. So again in short my study thus far would indicate any art claiming to be of Shaolin decent would have to incoporate what is now known as the 3 treasures of shaolin:
1. Cha'n/zen philosophy
2. Qi Gong practice
3. Martial science

GeneChing

12-15-2003, 11:10 AM

b - The reason you can't figure out the arguement is because it's an argument about Chan (at least I think it is.) It reminds me of that old Chan parable: The initiates are watching a flag wave above the temple. One says "the flag is flapping." The other contends "the wind is flapping." After the argument intensifies, the master comes over and says "your minds are flapping." :cool:

cl - We discussed the three treasures on this thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=23561) a few months ago. I would say that the notion of martial science is novel, at least as an English term, unique to your camp.

canglong

12-17-2003, 06:02 PM

Hello Gene,
There are many things about the study of Hung Fa Yi that could probably be considered "unique to our camp" and they too are grounded in the philosophy of cha'n/zen and are hard to convey with words but easily understood once experienced. Another way of looking at this questions is to understand those things that can best express or exemplify the philosophy of cha'n/zen may not be Shaolin but definately run parallel to the pursuit of reality which would undoutbedly be considered Shaolin cha'n/zen in nature. In Hung Fa Yi for example we have the oral idioms 1. saam dim yat sin dihng yuhn sahn three points, one line Establish the original nature. One of the earliest hou kuets, this establishes the importance of center of gravity in relation to heaven, man and earth which is a concept adhered to by all (more specifically martial combatants)even if not clearly understood the reality of which can be easily experienced in a variety of ways. 2. Ng douh luhk muhn fa kihn kwan Five ways and Six gates, Influence the universe and this is in reference to the wing chun concepts of five lines and six gates the reality of this is found in all the interactions of man, for any interaction to occur one or more of these six gates must be addressed and this applies to any facet of interaction not just combat. The methodology of saam mo kiu three connecting bridges or its equivilant would be required as a method of providing the reality of experience to principles, concepts and theories at practice for SMK uniquely completes the combining of the idea with the principles and concepts with acute focus of action grounding the pupil in the reality of experience. In Hung Fa Yi this type of study is undertaken for all 3 treasures of Shaolin and from my understanding thus far any and all martial arts considered to be "shaolin" should exibit these at a minimun this is to say not only provide training in the 3 treasures but using the platiform philosophy of cha'n/zen to facilitate this training of the treasures to be consistant with Shaolin cha'n/zen.

blooming lotus

12-18-2003, 01:06 AM

lol ..dude..you lost me right in middle somewhere ( thems some big words ;) ) but before you finished I understood and concurred...especially with your last statement. I dont speak for anyone else but this is what I mean when I say shaolin kungfu.

As GeneChing said recently these things are the foundations and something that every artial artist must confront at some time during his evoloution as a practioner.

As for you scythefall "your ch'an"? my friend, ch'an is an embodient off nothingness as paradoxical as that is an therefore belongs to no-one but I' sure we can forgive you on that score.... you're right I did misread your words though felt it uneccessary to address. I acknowledge that you were also agreeing with me but unfortunuately this doesnt mean I will return the gesture or lacked sincerity ( however ungenerously ) in any of my other coments. I am not here to demean you though and could tell you stories of how I've been stalked incessantly since arriving back from china with sars like symptoms, escaping a crazy situation myself leaving everything I owned bar some toiletries and rave about tideness and ack of tolerance, but excuses exshmuses..pls accept apologies.

VASH ..........I LOVE MY SUCKFUL ATVAR!!!!!!

( besides, I've had it so long if I changed now you'd all wonder what happened... lol...Consider it trademark...):D

stimulant

12-18-2003, 03:46 AM

if the style came out of shaolinm then its a shaolin.

if it is take from shaolin movements then it is a grey area (such as internal arts, wing-chun, some mizong styles, chin-woo)

if its a style with some shaolin forms in it....its not shaolin.

but I think this thread will always be one of personal perspective.

David Jamieson

12-18-2003, 07:53 AM

Well, meditation will take other aspects of your life to a higher level.

You will see and understand that which you only saw and understood externally and superficially before looking at it realistically.

Zen, opens the minds eye to this type of perception. adeptness in it is so gradual, you don't even realize it, and when you do, it doesn't matter. :)

the idea of making and unmaking is yin and yang at its root. IE: if you can break a persons arm, then to be the embodiment of yin and yang, you conversly need to be able to fix that broken arm as well.

The martial art part is the least important part imo, where meditation and healing arts are the higher levels in Shaolin or in any lifestyle practice imo.

The martial arts can be any methodolgy in other words, it is likely that somewhere inside them is a taste of the Shaolin repetoire anyway.

I personally don't feel you can reach a very high level of kungfu without a very high level of introspection that is brought with meditative practice over time.

I also don't think that Yin and Yang can be achieved and internalized in martial arts practice without learning how to do and undo.

I gotta stick to my original answer on this one. :)
If it doesn't have those three things then it really can't truly be "shaolin" on just the external movements of the martial arts alone.

But, I also agree with Gene in many respects in regards to the "what's in a name" idea.

cheers

GeneChing

12-18-2003, 10:50 AM

cl: No disrespect to Sifu Meng or GM Gee, but lately, some of the HFY stuff has been pretty undecipherable by the general public. I don't think BL is alone in her comment on your post. I konw you guys are on to something, but you should be very careful when you mix 'science' and 'chan.' That concoction often results in nazism. Where do you think Hitler got his swastika? It's all in the jargon.

bl: All martial artists DO NOT have to confront spirituality. All should do so, but most can be content with less. That is acceptable too. I think to reach the high levels, you must grapple with it, but how many of us really, REALLY, reach high levels?

s: Your 3 'ifs' are contradictory.

kl: What's in a name indeed. We might as well be asking, "what's true?"

David Jamieson

12-18-2003, 11:30 AM

Interestingly enough, i think that you would have to ask what are the objectives of Shaolin?" (the order). What are the tenets and beliefs of the order. What are the prescribed paths of beginning and continuing?

If you match up, you can be at least Shaolin in name.
The other aspect is time. As in at what point in time do your objectives and goals of prescribed learning match those of the objectives and goals of prescribed learning by the Shaolin order?

Shaolin now, today is still Shaolin. Shaolin of memories is also Shaolin. For the sake of posterity it is only fair to state they are two different things.

cheers

stimulant

12-18-2003, 11:59 AM

contradictory?? how?

if the style came out of shaolin (i.e originated in the temple) then its a shaolin style

if it is take from shaolin movements (and then refined, mixed) then it is a grey area (such as internal arts, wing-chun, some mizong styles, chin-woo)

if its a style with some shaolin forms in it....its not shaolin.

David Jamieson

12-18-2003, 01:29 PM

if i may, the contradiction is related to your first if, wherein your second and third if contradict that.

You say, if a style comes out of shaolin, then it's shaolin.

but then you contradict this by saying that if it draws upon shaolin or only has forms from shaolin it is not.

the contradiction lies in that it all comes from shaolin in whole or in part. By your argument, the only Shaolin kungfu is that which exists in the temple right now. But we know this isn't likely seeing as much kungfu has come out of the temple into the public over the years.

so, again, we have "what's in a name" and how do you pay homage to recognize the origin of the material you study?

cheers

GeneChing

12-18-2003, 03:41 PM

Thanks KL, I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed the 1, 2 & 3 problem.

The objective argument is interesting. What is the objective of Shaolin? I'm sure our detractors would say commercialism, then we'd all be Shaolin (except for those unknown Mr. Miyage types who work as sups for low rent apartments). The monks would probably say it's about Chan. But then, if you study Chan, one of the main tenets is not to be possessive of the teachings, so in a sense, that renders this whole discussion as not being Shaolin. Why would you want to define the teachings in such a way to exclude potential sangha? That's the problem with thinking too hard on this stuff, you'll end up in mind traps. That's why Chan has koans (or kung-ans in Chinese).

David Jamieson

12-18-2003, 03:58 PM

I agree that one shouldn't be possessive of the teachings. And in being that way, you either pass them along openly to the best of your ability, completely forget them or a bit of both.

The transcendance of the lessons are in the internalization of the pure knowledge and the removal of the subjective. Tab A fits into slot b kind of stuff. Without all the instruction on what exactly tab a is or what slot be is, or how we can recognize them and use them etc etc.

I think that one of the reasons that it is advised to not be possessive of Chan teachings is because ultimately, there is nothing to possess.

I would be very interested to hear the modern telling of what the objectives are for the temples offerings in the here and now. I would be equally interested in hearing what the objectives of the learning path was thee 300 years ago and at other points in history.

I do understand the original objective of the temple was to preserve and spread the teachings of buddhism. It's how all the other stuff works into that objective that I would really give a good ear to.

cheers

stimulant

12-19-2003, 02:30 AM

Let me explain it this way.....

1) if the car is all made by ford then it is a ford.

2) if the car is a joint project between ford and honda it is a little bit of a grey area to say which it is.

3) if a honda has a ford steering it is not a ford.

now how does that contridict?

I do, however, greatly appriciate everyones views, whether agreeing or disagreeing.

GeneChing

12-19-2003, 10:22 AM

Sure, that simplification works, but we're not dealing with solitary unit like a car. We're dealing with a vast curriculum of teachings. Take something like Shaolin eagle claw - legend has it that this style descended from Yue Fei, then passed through Shaolin. Shaolin claims it as part of the legacy. That would be like a Honda passing through Ford for a little work, then Ford claiming it. Is that Shaolin/Ford? Also there's a problem of whole vs. parts. If I put a Ford gear pedal in my Honda, the Honda might not be Ford, but the gear pedal would be. Transfer that idea to forms. How many forms/parts does it take for the whole thing to be generalized as Shaolin/Ford? Here's the kicker - there are so many Shaolin forms that nobody, I mean nobody, knows them all. Most barely know a fraction. So we're not dealing with a whole car here. We just dealing in parts. So, to use your metaphor, it's like we're a auto parts store. How many Ford parts do we need in stock to advertise ourselves as a Ford auto parts store?

It's all grey. Maybe that's why Shaolin disciples wear these. (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/shaolstylwar.html)

blooming lotus

12-19-2003, 12:58 PM

> kl The objective of the last 300yrs has been today, as other points in
> history have been (bearing kaleidescoppe in imnd) to create other ponits
in
> history yet to come (future). As for "the other stuff" , when you
> understand each moment in time as a piece of one continuous story of
> evoloution of energy from the first abscence of vibration of energy (chan
> (nothingness - antimatter???being formless) producing matter (yin and
> yang)of the first particle (helium, being the lightest ) then follow
their
> parrellel evoloutionary courses through qi ( reactionary energy that
becomes
> so when interacting with matter) and the heliums evoloution to heavier
> particles up the spectrum of density and speed vibrating slower and at
> decrasing frequencies until we have organic and more temporary matter
(such
> as human flesh)
> and understand that the only thing permanent in that equation is the
enegry
> vibrating at that higher frequency (pending karma and what "balance you
are
> left with from what you went in with and what you checked out with after a
> lifetime of absorbing and omitting) acknowledging the fact that the idea
is
> to reassimiilate into the highest frequency of nothingness you come to
> understand that all actions in life are a part of your journey back to
that
> abscence of frequency ( reproducing freuency - ie "the wheel of life"and
it
> is the nature of that frequency to create a series of events ( to be
loose)
> that will enable this to occur. So everything that happens is a ponit in
> that cycle and once aware of that cycle, the story and coinciding pieces
> (events in time) have seeequential order and meaning according to the
story
> of the cycle so far and the cycle to come. so you have personal karma and
> evoloution, you have societal (local -inational-international-
> personally/interpersonally and intrapersonally) then you put all together
> and get humaniity's karma and evoloution past presennt future -
backwards,
> forwards through, round etc (cosequently transcending measurable time and
> distance). I hope I haven't repeated myself and y humble thoughts give
> you another perspective to consider. ps it is iportant here to know that
> energy doesnt stop being it just oves further apart as it disperses and
> viibrates higher until it vibrates so high and far apart that it becomes
> nothing resulting in the reaction of manifestation (meaning something) (so
> that paradox contradicting the yin/yang theory never occurs) at that very
> nano (smnallest measurrreable amount today and only very recently proven
> after an international effort ( (including chinese and nasa scientists
> assiilating eastern and western schools of thoughht, standard , psychology
> and both human , financial and material rescource ) and a budget of ?30
> billion dollars). Just to bring it home, shaolin I believe IS all about
> Ch'an and the higher purpose, martial arts (in my little mindseye) is not
> only functional interpersonally but intrapersonally as the best and most
> complete way to prolonging your vehicle increasing opportunity or karmic
> resloution - absence thereof being the objective. Im pretty sure that someone will argue validity here but feedback is definately welcomed
> :D :D

stimulant

12-20-2003, 06:06 PM

I also heard that there were 1 or two old monks only in the temple....till after a shaolin film came out in the late 70's / early 80's..... but rumour is just that.

Vash

12-20-2003, 06:31 PM

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1566869528/qid=1071970239/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-9491198-9650238?v=glance&s=books

The True Wu-Tang v Shaolin Biography

Songshan

12-21-2003, 06:52 AM

Yes, right around the period of 1983-ish there were probably just a handful of monks if that. Jet Li's movie Shaolin Temple rekindled the flame and got Shaolin going again. Jet Li even commented on Shaolin's condition at the time he was filming. Now we all know that China is not a democracy. So the majority of it is government controlled. Shaolin was essentially turned into a tourist trap and was generating revenue for the government.

Now I believe in the wheel of life. I feel Shaolin was again reborn in the 80's and started its life again. After almost dieing during the cultural revolution period, the Shaolin Temple was in confusion and the monks scattered everywhere. They went into hiding. The only way some of the monks could survive was to return back to secular life before monkhood. Some even had families. So in answer to your question the monks were hiding during the cultural revolution. By 1992 Shaolin went from dieing to alive completing the wheel of life. Iam sure Shaolin was thriving and gaining support.

________________________________________

All the MA in the Shaolin temple were brought in from outsiders. Actually both Shaolin and Wudan has little contributation to the CMA history. Too much credit had been given to them that they don't deserived.
_________________________________________

Your not the only one who has stated this. I disagree with you as Shaolin is very much the roots of CMA. Yes there are countless styles out there but Shaolin is its own distinct style too. Wushu does exist in Shaolin's system today but traditional Shaolin is still very much alive. You just have to know where to find it.
:)

David Jamieson

12-21-2003, 08:31 AM

approximately 20 million Chinese were killed under Mao's rule.

Those who were the first to go were the scholars, the philosophers, the enemies of the state (dissidents) and anyone who propogated the idea of self empowerment (which is essentially what Kungfu is at its root).

It is likely that some escaped (monks) and hid, It is just as likely that many were executed in a summary fashion by the RA.

There are some masters in the west who remeber these terrible times and have toild their stories of their escape from the brutality of the Chairman and his underlings. Pretty scary stuff and many still bear its psychological scars today.

It is a curious mix, but ultimately I think it is a good thing that the Shaolin is up and running again regardless of the extenuating circumstance. There is decent training going on there.

cheers

canglong

12-21-2003, 05:28 PM

Hello Gene,
Experience/knowledge are what we all need as guiding tools to understand Hung Fa Yi, Shaolin, cha'n or anything for that matter with experience comes tangable self evident proof of law or tao for who can smell the rose for another or taste the honey or feel the sting for someone else.

General Public: Yes, cha'n/zen is for the general public but as we all know you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Gung Wu: It is incumbent upon those that consider themselves belonging to this group to reach a level of comprehension that will allow them the capability to decipher Hung Fa Yi and not the reverse.

cha'n/science: (http://www.buddhistinformation.com/zen/zen_and_human_life_science.htm) It could easily be argued that the resultant conclusions of emperical truth through self examination follows in line with many scientific principles.

Dialogue If there are lingering questions pertaining to Hung Fa Yi please ask them and I will do my best to either answer them directly or find the answers.

I too was refreshingly surprised and delighted at blooming lotus's remarks as well when she said "but before you finished I understood and concurred ...especially with your last statement. I dont speak for anyone else but this is what I mean when I say shaolin kungfu."

Kung Fu/Shaolin "Knowing others is wisdom;
Knowing the self is enlightenment.
Mastering others requires force;
Mastering the self needs strength.

He who knows he has enough is rich.
Perseverance is a sign of will power.
He who stays where he is endures.
To die but not to perish is to be eternally present."

GeneChing

12-22-2003, 11:00 AM

Shaolin Temple was in '82, and that really helped to rekindle Shaolin. As for monks in the temple, Songshan is a big mountain. Even today, many of the monks don't hang out at Shaolin, now because it's too touristy. They often spend the practice in many of the smaller temples, scattered around the mountainside. There weren't many monks after the CR, for sure, but there were still lots of practitioners. Let's just look south for a second - according to the southern Shaolin myth, only five monks survived, and that quintet gave rise to styles like Wing Chun and Hung Gar, both very vital Shaolin disciplines. So how many Chan 'monks' does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Two - one to notice the light and the other to notice the absence of dark. OK, sorry, had to interject a little crazy wisdom, it's Zen we're talking here, after all.

I've been doing a lot of research into the CR lately. It's a big black hole. KL is right, a lot of people were killed. But did you know that under Mao's rule and in despite of the CR, the population actually grew? It was 630 million a decade before the CR and over 880 million after. What's more, average life expectancy increased from 40 years to 60 under Mao. Also, we talk about communism not being a democracy, and it isn't, but have you read Mao? The ultimate goal of communism is democracy. North Korea, the commie side, is actually called the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. We just don't use that term here in America generally because it's too confusing for people who've never studied polictics. Now communism never made it to democracy, and many might argue, especially in light of our recent political events, neither did we.

Anyway, back to the ongoing 'validity of Shaolin' discussion that we have here, even if the whole thing was a shame, it would still be interesting, just like crop circles. Think about it.

canglong - I hear you and agree, but I'd add Kuanyin into your equation. That's key, as much as meat loves salt.

passing_through

12-22-2003, 11:15 AM

Gene,

In my experience, Chan is not limited by doctrines or methods – people can approach it as a religion, a science or even a philosophy, whichever "door" they perceive and with which they identify.

Chan is about getting to a deeper level of experience of reality (for ourselves, and ultimately for others, in the manner and tradition of the Bodhisattva path of Buddhism). With these "goals" any vehicle or method can lead to a deeper sense of reality (tea ceremony, swordsmanship practice, tea cultivation, Bonsai cultivation, seated/standing/moving meditation, washing dishes, cleaning, etc. are all examples). With these different methods, different concepts are employed to help take the practitioner "to the far shore". Chan is not the concepts – and can be experienced without the concepts – so the overall experience of the process depends on the culture and needs of the student (the karmic roots). The method of communication comes down to the tradition but even that can change at times, too. If someone does not understand the intent and language of Chan, I think you’re statement, "you should be very careful when you mix 'science' and 'chan.'," could potentially by misleading to them.

In the HFY lineage, we describe the relationship of methods and communication to Chan in the phrase Hau Chyun San Sau – you have to have oral instruction, direct from your teacher and then you must experience the teaching through your six gates (eyes, ears, nose, mouth, skin, mind). Once you have an experience of the teaching (and you’re qualified to speak), different concepts can be used to help someone else. I can’t teach everyone using the same example in all cases – I have to adapt my communication style for the person to which I am speaking (explanation about the HFY Formula aside – in that case context is the same for everyone that has a body so the concepts are the same, but the language used to "see" the formula can adapt to circumstance based on the person that is hearing the explanation). Talking about universal compassion to someone that’s never experienced love might not be the best bridge to try to build. Maybe understanding force and power (or violence?) would be better for the moment – with an eventual guiding towards compassion by analogy and/or through gradual cultivation.

Some HFY articles feature a lot of scientific and military imagery – the HFY system uses a lot of Buddhist imagery and the analogies in the articles to science or military references made are valid. However, much of the more modern imagery has been derided in the past with arguments such that the Chinese people from the timeframe of the Ming/Qing transition couldn’t possibly think in the manner suggested by the scientific and military imagery used in the articles. While finding this argument both racist and ethnocentric, I also find it empty. The more I study the actual level of knowledge and sophistication of Chinese culture, especially during the Ming/Qing transition, the more I see connections in scientific, militaristic, philosophic, and religious models of reality. You do raise a good point about language usage. The last few articles have been reviewed by different people for clarity of message prior to being completed – a practice that will hopefully alleviate some of the miscommunications or misunderstandings of the past.

Going back to the original thrust of this thread, what is Shaolin – for me it comes to the cultivation of the mind/heart and nourishing the Buddha Nature in addition to technical training. There should be a focus in the system on three aspects: Chan, Health (both for self-cultivation and medicine) and Self-Defense (both as Chan cultivation and to prohibit the use of violence). Similar to Kung Lek’s assertion, I feel the body mechanics are less important that the combined focus on the above. If your intent is focused on the right goal, your life will eventually reach it. The heart of Chan is compassion for others – Shaolin is a faat, a method to reach that state. And I can’t remember where I read it – this thread or another – but sets/forms as sutras, this is something I can certainly identify with personally. The HFY system makes a distinction between Kuen Faat Dai Ji – a martial arts and Dharma disciple and Kuen Seut Dai Ji – a martial arts disciple. Kuen Faat means to use the kuen (and by extension, the learning of fighting) to experience the faat (method/reality – Dharma in a Buddhist context). Kuen Seut means to use the kuen to develop skill (I think this might be analogous to Mantis108’s usage of kung fu and wushu that I read in another thread with kung fu being in a similar vein to Kuen Faat and wushu in a similar vein as Kuen Seut.)

Sincerely,
Jeremy R.

Oh, and as a side note, Hitler’s usage of the swastika is discussed here (http://www.locksley.com/6696/swastick.htm) and here (http://www.locksley.com/6696/swastic2.htm). It’s not quite as simple as "when you mix 'science' and 'chan.' That concoction often results in nazism."

In brief,

"Nazi Germany's use of it has an interesting history. The initial association that the symbol seems to have had was that of extreme nationalism, but not necessarily associated with the Nazi Party. It was first used in this context about 1870 CE by the Austrian Pan-German followers of Schoenerer.

Wilhelm Schwaner displayed a swasticka on the title page of his "völkisch" periodical "Der Volkserzeiher" in 1897 CE as a symbol of the paper's "völkisch" sentiments, and this may be the first printed usage of it in this context.– from the first link above (http://www.locksley.com/6696/swastick.htm)
…

Therefore, when Hitler chose the swasticka as the symbol of the NSDAP, he was quite probably conciously choosing an already familiar symbol that already had the tenets of National Socialist ideology attached to it in the minds of the German public. This act of adopting an already familiar badge is just one more point of evidence that Hitler was a canny and cunning man, and willing to steal and pervert whatever would advance his program.

The badge of the NSDAP was designed by Dr. Friedrich Krohn, a dentist who had belonged to several "völkish" groups, including the "Germanen Ordnung" (membership in which, incidentally, precluded -any- advancement in the NSDAP). As mentioned above, the symbol was originally drawn right-handed, and Adolph Hitler insisted on its being reversed. Many occultists shook their heads at this, thinking (rightly) that it presaged a bad end for Hilter's Germany."– from the second link above (http://www.locksley.com/6696/swastic2.htm)

GeneChing

12-23-2003, 12:46 PM

Chan is not limited by doctrines or methods – people can approach it as a religion, a science or even a philosophy, whichever "door" they perceive and with which they identify. I won't argue that, but I stand by my point that mixing science and Chan is dangerous. Both are emphasize parsimony, and there's a baby/bathwater problem, which elicited my Kuanyin statement earlier. There's some philosophical challenges to something that is "not limited." It's like an old koan - if any 'door' is possible, can a Chan butcher exist? Can something evil be Chan? A lot of people use the doctrine of no doctrine as an excuse to do as they please, but that is not what Chan is about at all. It may seem so, but therein lies a fundamental paradox of Chan. Now where I think this gets tricky is that science attempts to resolve paradox through logic and control. That creates a schizophrenia because if you're looking for something equatable or mathematical, Chan is not your answer. It's like approaching a koan as a riddle to be solved - you miss the boat completely.
If we chose to look at Chan through a scientific lens, it should be one more like quantum mechanics or even Heisenberg effects.

Now as for use of scientific and military imagery, there's no problem with military at all. There is a long tradition of military imagery in China, a tradition that goes back to Sunzi, further even. But perhaps we should distinguish modern military with ancient here. Modern science has converted the military from warriors to soldiers. It's not man-to-man anymore. It's machine-to-machine. So we can get back to the problem being one of modern science. Now why would we want to use the scientific lens on martial arts? Certainly an argument can be made for the research now being done on qi and TCM, and perhaps something can be said for an anatomical approach. But otherwise, it could be perceived as just putting on airs. Are you actually reaching more people with the teachings using this approach, or are you being more exclusive with jargon - speaking in code, if you will, a common problem with scientific journals. Science demands sterility, the first condition for control, and combat is seldom sterile. It also demands a lack of attachment to the results - whether something is proven or not, you cannot be attached. Again there's a parallel to Chan, one that if compounded can be really dangerous. Being unattached can easliy slip into psychosis.

A lot of people view Chan lightly, and that's fine. Especially lately, it's been such a fad - peace and love, you can't really fault that. But, like any spiritual pursuit, when taken to an extreme, it can be the razor's edge between heaven and hell. And we all know how extreme we like to be here. After all, we've all taken the warrior path. So if you're serious about it all, take heed and tread warily.

cdemarco

12-23-2003, 03:06 PM

I'm new to this forum, and would like to say hello to all. Could someone please explain to me the differences and/or distinctions between the "Ch'an" practiced in China and associated with kung-fu, and Japanese Zen such as the Soto and Rinzai schools? I'm familiar with certain differences in emphasis between Soto and Rinzai, for example, but unclear as to what makes Ch'an distinctive: i.e., the degree of emphasis on zazen, koan work, seshin, etc. Thanks in advance for your input.

GeneChing

12-23-2003, 03:46 PM

Chan is the progenitor. The Soto and Rinzai schools of Zen originated from Chan and have picked up some variations over the course of time. But Chan is the Chinese way to say Zen (or Dhyana if you want to go back to the sanskrit). If memory serves, both Soto and Rinzai descend from some specific Chinese masters - both words are transliterations of the names of the Chinese masters, Soto being the combination of two names for two separate Chinese masters. Now within Chan, there are also some lineage variations, both before Dogen brings it to Japan and after, but they are all based on the same root, so your question is a little muddled. Or maybe it's the answer that is muddled.

Like many things Zen (or Chan) there are distinctions that can be made, and yet paradoxically, it's the same thing. Well, sort of. Each school picks up it's regional and lineage variations - there is even an emerging school colloqially called American Zen.

cdemarco

12-23-2003, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by GeneChing
Chan is the progenitor. The Soto and Rinzai schools of Zen originated from Chan and have picked up some variations over the course of time. But Chan is the Chinese way to say Zen (or Dhyana if you want to go back to the sanskrit). * * *
Like many things Zen (or Chan) there are distinctions that can be made, and yet paradoxically, it's the same thing. Well, sort of. Each school picks up it's regional and lineage variations - there is even an emerging school colloqially called American Zen.
Thanks much for your reply, Gene. I'm sorry if my question was muddled; I wasn't confused about the spread of Zen from India to China to Japan. (And yes, there certainly is American Zen: Charlotte Joko Beck comes to mind.) I will attempt to be clearer in my future questions.

Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but I am under the general impression that Zen/Ch'an is more of an adjunct to the majority of Western kung-fu practitioners, rather than constituting a principal part of their being; something they discover after they begin studying kung-fu, rather than the other way around. I'm curious as to how integral Zen/Ch'an is to the lives of the participants in this forum -- such aspects as daily zazen, being part of a sangha including sitting in a zendo or temple, participation in other Buddhist services, etc. In short, whether Ch'an is as integral a part of practitioners' lives as the study and practice of kung-fu, and what their Ch'an practice consists of.

Thanks again for your response, Gene, and my apologies once again for the muddiness.

David Jamieson

12-24-2003, 09:36 AM

i owuld like to interject a viewpoint here.

Chan/zen, while in practice is not hidered by dogma or doctrine has at it's roots some doctrinal knowledge and perhaps even a dogmatic approach to beginning.

The very beginnings of Ch'an are the lankavatara sutra as transmitted by Pu Ti Ta Mo to Hui ke. If you take the time to read this sutra, it will indeed make many things clear about what Ch'an or Zen is.

Even the most simple things on the outside, have very complex workings inside is what I am saying. Ch'an in practice is very simple, but in truth and as a way of life is very complex when weighed against the realities of modern living. It is in fact quite contrary to the western paradigm in its practice in so many ways.

Many approach it imo with to much of a simple view. Like anything, and especially like Kungfu, Ch'an practice takes a great deal of effort and purpose to fully bring into ones life.

As an aside, I agree that many people are introduced to it after they are introduced to martial arts practice. I also think that there is a lot left out of it in many martial practices and instead it is exploited to the ends of only the matial aspects instead of fully being delivered to the students as the vehicle it truly is.

Maybe it's because people would get utterly confused with the dichotomy it will present them in regards to martial practice.

I myself was introduced to Zen long before I began martial practice and even longer before I found a good kungfu teacher. I still know very little about it despite reading reems of information and pretty much daily practice of zazen.

I think this is a yin and yang thing, because in the see of knowledge that Ch'an is, there is nothing to know and yet it about knowing everything about the deepest recesses of your own being. Probably one of the hardest things to look at ever.

:)

cheers

blooming lotus

12-24-2003, 05:35 PM

I love that staemnt and I couldn't agree more. So many people have such a sincerely difficult time looking at their spirit all the way through until from the eyes of the deepest reaches of the universe and beyond that it so extremely easy to settle for a lie or justify a comprimise when so close to a sincere enlightenent or insight. Its not easy to see your self at your most ugly and continue looking...We all face it....some go beyond and some turn back. Be strong It's what you dont know or refuse to acknowledge that becomes the secret enemy

pls excuse typos...dodgey keyboard:o ::D

norther practitioner

12-29-2003, 11:07 AM

Good posts guys...

Thanks, I now feel so enlightened...;) :D

GeneChing

12-29-2003, 01:42 PM

Do martial artists become Zennists or do Zennists become martial artists? KL's probably right that for most martial artists, martial arts are a gateway to Zen, not the other way around. But if you ask a true Shaolin practitioner, they'll say chan quan yi qi Zen and martial arts are one. So it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. From a western standpoint, there's an argument to be made. From a zen standpoint, the chicken is the egg.

cdemarco

12-29-2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by GeneChing
Do martial artists become Zennists or do Zennists become martial artists? KL's probably right that for most martial artists, martial arts are a gateway to Zen, not the other way around. But if you ask a true Shaolin practitioner, they'll say chan quan yi qi Zen and martial arts are one. So it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. From a western standpoint, there's an argument to be made. From a zen standpoint, the chicken is the egg.
Having been introduced to Zen first, I subsequently learned that Bodhidharma introduced something more to the monks at the temple, which is what led me to kung-fu. I was somewhat surprised that not more students at the kwoon were Zen practitioners (or Buddhists at all for that matter). That was the reason for my curiosity about the Zen (Ch'an) practice of forum participants here (I think only Kung Lek replied: daily practice of zazen). How many of us here are guided by a roshi in Zen practice to the same or similar extent to which we study kung-fu under a sifu? Anybody else do daily zazen; sit regularly in a zendo; etc.?

And to Kung Lek, thanks for your great post.

norther practitioner

12-29-2003, 02:30 PM

I meditate every day, but I don't subscribe to any method... if that makes any sense.

MasterKiller

12-29-2003, 02:47 PM

Kung fu is moving meditation as far as I'm concerned...

blooming lotus

12-29-2003, 03:08 PM

exactly, and you can beg to differ all you like, but you still need to understand the process.

canglong

12-29-2003, 04:28 PM

From a western standpoint, yes, this has always appeared to be a stumbling block.

Kung fu is moving meditation as far as I'm concerned... Well said.

Who seperates chan and kung fu they do or you do...

Chinwoo-er

01-02-2004, 08:23 AM

No more politic !!
No more zen !!

Please, have mercy.
I was talking about kung fu styles, not nazis and chan meditation. I can only take so much. Y.....you......you sole this tread. My precious thread !!

~runs away crying~

:D :D :D

David Jamieson

01-02-2004, 09:07 AM

chinwoo-er is finished with that koan now. :D

please pass it along to the next.

cheers

GeneChing

01-02-2004, 11:19 AM

cdemarco has hit the nail on the head - or the student with the kyoshaku in our case! Here's the rub. Most martial artists will define Shaolin as disticnt from other stuyles of kung because of it's zen/chan essence. They say that real Shaolin must have chan. At the same time, they really don't have a chan practice beyond their martial arts and maybe reading a few books. But then they default to the old "chan is non-dogmatic" and "kung fu is meditation", but in fact they don't know jack. I mean really, imagine if the situation was reversed. Imagine a zennist saying they practice kung fu because they've read a few books, do their own practice, but don't follow a teacher.

No wonder why most martial arts are snubbed by zen practitioners. We'd do the same to them if things were reversed.

Now personally, I don't have a regular practice or teacher for zen now. But I entered the sangha in 1995, taking the bodhsattva precepts as my vows at SF Zen's Green Dragon temple. I've done numerous work studies and practice retreats at Tassajara and other zendos/spiritual centers. I even lived at the Tibetan monastery at Bodh Gaya, India (where Buddha was enlightened).

MasterKiller

01-02-2004, 11:29 AM

and "kung fu is meditation", but in fact they don't know jack. For the record, I study with a group of immigrant Vietnamese monks who run a temple here in Oklahoma. And I still don't know jack. :p

GeneChing

01-05-2004, 12:04 PM

...but I'd rather know Jill then Jack.

David Jamieson

01-05-2004, 05:01 PM

well...:D

For the purpose of pointing it out...

Originally in buddhism, there was what is know as "the teachings of the elders".

This was the original form of buddhism. It is called "Theravada" and is teh oldest form of buddhism in practice even to this day. It's earliest texts written in Pali ( a proto script before sanskrit).

therevada left india in and around 200 BCE and spread into Tibet and parts of China as well as south. Therevada buddhism is the predominant for of buddhism that we see in vietnam, cambodia, laos, malaysia and still in India.

There was a schism in and around 20 CE and the result was Mahayana buddhism. And by 220CE the Mahayana Lotus Sutra was written into Chinese and Mahayana was spread throughout China, Korea and Japan as well as Tibet.

Mahayana buddhism was referred to as "the greater vehicle" while teh older Therevada was known as "The lesser vehicle"

These terms are both hubris and derogatory in nature, and both terms came from Mahayana school. Therevada was regarded by Mahayana as "lesser".

There's a couple of reasons why. Therevada prescribed to the idea that to truly hear the 4 noble truths and to truly follow teh 8 fold path, one must renounce worldly goods and be released from family bonds, freindships, etc and lead the monastic life in order to reach a higher level of consciousness or being.

This higher plane of existance was originally 6 levels with 4 more added by the Mahayana school. the therevada school still follows teh 6 level model.

The mahayana school conversly believed that anyone could achieve a higher level of conciousness through their continued good deeds in this life and in the transmigrated next life.

No buddhist believes that conciousness or identity can pass from one life to the next but they do accept transmigration wherein the essence of the soul moves from one life to the next.

From Mahayana comes Chan or Zen. The text which was transmitted to the disciple Hui Ke that contained the seeds of Chan was teh Lankavatara sutra which takes a look at the state of sunya and how it relates to the soul because it is the attempt at realization of non-dualism. Sunya transliterates as "void".

The Mahayana come Chan Idea was that in teh 8 fold path, to focus on right meditation meant to focus on sunya, emptiness and ultimately one would see the true reality of themselves and therefore the universe. This is why there are statements such as "doctrineless" and "without dogma" associated with Chan. But to learn how to get to the point where you realize what Sunya is and how to seek it through purpose and intent that meditation is, one most certainly requires some initiation.

When in practice and the whell is turning is were the practice becomes remarkably seated in the individual and has no greater body than that. This is possibly where the former misinterpretation of the understanding of Chan comes from.

Now, the reason why it is "Shaolin" is because Chan was founded at Shaolin and was spread outward from Shaolin.

So, to be Shaolin, one must at least attempt Chan.

Because of it's lack of duality, it is often easy to be misled into thinking that just going about your life and sitting in meditation is enough. It is not and I agree with Gene about this. there is a whole lot more to be understood before coming to those simple acts. But when you have learned these, all there is is the simple act. But it still isn't simple.

the rest cannot be put into words simply because that is not a valid form of transmission in regards to much of Chan.

Hope that confuses and informs ya at the same time.

P.S, You can also seek a zen master and recieve your initiation, but don't count on getting accepted to quickly :D

cheers

dre_doggX

01-06-2004, 07:11 AM

Didnt Shaolin first barrow from older martial arts. I would say Sumo is not Shaolin, but if I am not mistaking did that start from a Shaolin Monk, in Japan, from what I read anyway.

and alot of people who do not do any kungfu but maybe know or have seen some other martial arts(other the kungfu), think of kick boxing as something completely different then kungfu, but alot of kungfu artist kickbox probably more so then (T.K.D or Karate) so Kick Boxing, Mauy Thai, dont they say that start off as a Shaolin system, and even today, Burman Kick Boxing, as so graps, and throws, and kungfu like techinques they cant practice in the sport.

really I havent seen one posture in Shaolin, that is similar to Tai Chi.

But I would say Kempo Karate is not Shaolin.

but this is just in techinques, and theory.

I would have to agree with Kung lek, Shaolin they say is more then just a martial art, to be shaolin one must atleast attempt Zen (CHan). anyway thats my take on it.

GeneChing

01-06-2004, 11:02 AM

One must always keep in mind that Buddhism began as a discipline just for monks - religious ascetics. It wasn't until later that laymen (non-monks) were permitted into the sangha. Mahayana was less strict, so it went further. I once heard an interesting point about Theraveda - their monks were bound to only have two robes, so it was difficult for them to pass the Himalayas, thus impeding their progress.

As for Shaolin borrowing from other arts, that's probable, but we still think of it as the symbolic founder.

David Jamieson

01-06-2004, 11:22 AM

Yes Gene, that is true. The thervada school held that one could only become enlightened through the monastic experience and the complete release from worldly bonds. The lay people could only make a choice to either enter the monastic experience to move towards buddhahood or to remain in suffering.

With Mahayana, the doors were flung wide open and the concepts of meritorious living through deeds was spread and the idea that any lay person could achive a higher level of conciousness and become a boddhissatva or eventually a buddha. This path was no longer denied to the common person as it was and is still with the Therevada practice.

This is what made Buddhism really spread and much more palpable for the common person. Therevada still spread and I agree, it's approach is closer to aseticism than the Mahayana school.

It is interesting to note that Mahayana is north and east predominantly geographically speaking in it's strong holds while therevada is south and west in it's.

Of course today, Buddhism encircles the globe and has become intricately entwined with many cultures through it's wide variety of
practitioners.

The Shaolin not only borrowed, but refined and improved many martial practices and were caretakers and codifiers of the martial arts in China for a very long time. This openess to accepting all sorts of practices is part of what makes Shaolin Kungfu so huge in scope.

3 lifetimes to learn it it is said, therefore one can't know it all. THis fits well with Ch'an.

cheers

GeneChing

01-07-2004, 11:16 AM

You know, I spent time with studying with the Saddhus in Rishikesh and I felt there was this clear progression from the hindu aescetic tradition to Buddhism. It's the origin of Buddha's middle way. From that, I can see the progression to Zen. Hinduism has an incredible pantheon of Gods - insane and colorful - each with personalities to watch over their flock. Then Buddhism cuts it down to one incarnation of the divine that resides in all. Then Zen cuts away the Buddha. If you meet the Buddha on the road, you know what to do.

It's all about reductionalism - occum's razor applied to spiritual practice. Use the sword of manjushri to cut away the delusion. The trick is, and this brings us somewhat back OT, not to cut away too much, not to cut out the compassion. So you have to keep Kuanyin in the equation of Buddhism, even though she's a like this pantheistic throwback, a madonna figure, a universal symbol. But she's the compassion, and if you miss that, if your spiritual practice lacks compassion, you may easily fall to the dark side.

OK, that's a bit of of a spiritual rant - talk about a thread jack. I'll just say one more thing, if you want to get to the roots, the real roots, read the Mahabharata.

canglong

01-07-2004, 08:39 PM

Gene, Kung Lek
Hi guys, what does compassion mean to a buddhist monk?

David Jamieson

01-08-2004, 10:37 AM

canglong-

provided there isn't a punchline to your query, :-)

I am not a buddhist monk, so I can't tell you what it means to one, however, compassion would mean the same to you and I as a buddhist monk.

To act on your compassion is within the 8 fold path. Simply to assist or aid in the release of someone elses suffering in whatever way it is manifest. Remove suffering and Give Joy is teh crux of compassion through right action/effort.

cheers

GeneChing

01-08-2004, 11:14 AM

The root word of compassion - passion - derives from the latin passio which actually means 'suffer'. It's archaic usage implyied physical suffering or martyrdom, specifically in reference to Jesus on the cross. It evolved to refer to any strong emotion - ie. to suffer with love, to suffer with lust. When you add the 'comp' prefix, it means "to suffer with". One of the main precepts of Buddhism is to understand that all life is suffering. The practice of compassion is that of suffering with the other sentient beings of the world, whether it be your dying parents or cattle with mad cow disease. Kuanyin symoblizes compassion to Buddhist for her great acts of martyrdom and her ability to hear all the worls'd suffering. This is the path of the Bodhisattva - you don't take that final step to Buddhahood until you can bring all sentient beings with you. It is a difficult path, but a potent tonic for what ails the world, and the true calling of anyone who would call themselves Shaolin.

mortal

01-08-2004, 12:59 PM

I just take it to kick ass!

blooming lotus

01-08-2004, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by GeneChing
It is a difficult path, but a potent tonic for what ails the world, and the true calling of anyone who would call themselves Shaolin. [/B]

well Hello.....nice words Gene :p

canglong

01-08-2004, 07:53 PM

Thanks guys that was well thought out and written excellent definition and explaination. KL no, no punch line from me.

GeneChing

01-09-2004, 10:28 AM

This gets a little sticky and is liable to confuse the uninitiated, but hopefully that confusion will inspire those confused to do a little more research on their own. Now as stated earlier by our esteemed KL, there are two major schools, Mahayana (greater vehicle) and Theravada (teachings of the elders) a.k.a. Hinayana (lesser vehicle). Zen/Chan/Shaolin descends from the Mahayana. In a gross simplification, you could view Mahayana as the Bodhisattva path - save all sentient beings before you become a Buddha. This is another reason why it spreads more - we're all trying to save everyone, even those bjj guys :p. Hinayana, then, is more like the path of the Lohan or Arhat. It's all about your individual - your asceticisms and disiplines. Of course, Shaoliners will note that we venerate the Lohans a lot. There are numerous references to Lohans in our style, but few references to Bodhisattvas. Herein lies a typical paradox of Shaolin and why a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. On the surface, this might seem contradictory, especially how I just presented it. But at the heart, it's all the same.

blooming lotus

01-09-2004, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by GeneChing
[, if you want to get to the roots, the real roots, read the Mahabharata. [/B]

Gene

the mahabharata is 100 000 stanzas long!!!:(

Are you telling us you've read it? Like... the whole thing??:eek:

yuanfen

01-11-2004, 09:58 PM

Good summary Gene. Zen is the Japanicised pronunciation of Chan which is is the Sinicized pronounciation of the Sanskrit Dhyan and the Pali Zhan.

While the Mahabharata is broadly "Hindu"- many ideas in it
were transformed in the evolution of Buddha Dharma i.e. Buddhism.

Yudhisthir the oldest Pandava brother tried hard to defer his personal "happiness" on behalf of the community. And in his unwillingness to enter the heareafter without the company of stray dog that befriended him shows the seeds of sentient fellow feeling. And even in sections of the hereafter The Pandavas were surprised to know that their enemy the Kurus would be there too.

The Mahabharata also gives considerable insight into ancient martial and military arts in South Asia and perhaps in a way
many other parts of Asia.

I am sure that you also know about the overlapping symbolism of the monkey king in China and the Ramayana monkey king Hanuman who was/is a patron of martial arts.

joy chaudhuri

yuanfen

01-12-2004, 06:09 AM

She is even more compassionate as a female.
Nothing wrong as a male.
Compassion is gender free.

canglong

01-12-2004, 09:26 AM

bl,
if memory serves me correctly I recall Gene posting he has read it twice now :D

GeneChing

01-12-2004, 10:42 AM

I've read it in chunks, probably not the whole thing, definately not end-to-end in one sitting, nor even one pass (but then I never read Journey to the West that way either, of the Bible for that matter.) I've the the Bhagavad Gita many times and consider it to be one of the most significant 'warrior' texts ever. I highly recommend that to any martial aspirant (or spiritual seeker). So in all honesty, no, I haven't read the Mahabharata cover to cover, but I've chipped at it over several years. If you want a taste, and don't want to invest in that much reading time, I'd recommend the Peter Brook's version. The Mahabharata is an amazing epic, the root of many religious texts, although not necessarily the origin. Like the Bible and many of the Sutras, every time I check in on it, I find something more. It's very rich, very deep.

I enjoyed the Ramayana too, more so than Journey to the West. I was actually reading the Ramayana in India, at Rishikesh mostly, and on the long train rides. Journey to the West has a great beginning and ending, but the middle is waaay too much "deux ex machina" for me. Ramayana has some great ideas on devotion and although many make the comparison between Sun Wukong and Hanuman, to me, they're as different as Daffy Duck and Donald Duck.

mersil

02-26-2004, 08:32 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GeneChing
[B]It's all Shaolin, if you're going to put faith in the Bodhidharma legend. Where I draw my distinction is the lineage. Even the maligned Shaolin-do can stake a claim as long as they draw some lineage. Sure, sure, we can go into the dog-faced monk and all and whether you beleive it or not, but the same scrutiny can be applied to any lineage - we all have skeletons in the closet, maybe not dog-faced monks, but skeletons.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

what do you mean when you say maligned Shaolin-Do? what does that mean. Also and you make it sound as though Shaolin-Do is not really a Shaolin Martial Arts ...hmmm please explain .

1. are you Bias ?
2. do you prefer one style over another?
3. do you just defend the style you practice ? and all else is second best .

No offence. just please explain.

are you really an official Magazine editor ?

brassmonkey

02-27-2004, 02:10 AM

Mersil, Gene is either too nice or too dimplomatic to say it but what he really thinks is shaolin do is a fraudulent organization that has no connection to Shaolin and theyre kung fu is no good.

Now b4 you start calling Gene a jerk or anything remember that anyone outside of Shaolin Do who has done any research comes to the same conclusion.

MasterKiller

02-27-2004, 07:45 AM

uh oh. Here we go again.

mersil

02-27-2004, 09:35 AM

I have done my homework also.

Kung Fu is only as good as your students make it. and how dedicated the teacher is from which you train from right ? big fat lazy students arent going to make a shaolin warrior. but you shouldnt tell this student that he is not allowed to train because he may make your orginazation look bad. ya know 40+ years of this could potentially make any style look kinda Un-kung-Fu like.

truth is i could say that wal-mart sucks because the parking lot is too small. or i seen some cheap imported junk in there on time.

now thats cleared up.

-- what do you mean Fraud ?
-- what do you base your conclusion on ?
-- is this a personal grudge ?
-- How can anyone draw that conclusion?
-- Where are you getting your facts ?
-- They have linage to the Shaolin Temples.
-- they have many , many, legitimate shaolin forms.
-- there cirruculum is all shaolin style,
-- they use many, diferent Animal forms, Tai Chi , Pa Kua , Hsing I , and Numerous weapons.
-- i believe they have more katas/forms than any other style i have background checked.
http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/katas.shtml

the only real reason i can see that anyone would say these comments about a particular style, or orginaztion, is that they had some sort of personal grudge against them, or that they are in direct competion in some way.

i know that is very true in many walks of life. you try to downplay your competition to gain interest in your own product . similar situation. Like Chevy Dealers saying that Fords are no good.

no offence to your good magazine, but, it dont look good for an editor to downplay an orginazation that is only trying to preserve the Shaolin martials arts. and spread the wealth of knowlege of the ancient chineese to the USA. for over 40 years now.

good luck to you. and may your tounge dont swell :)

ohh, p.s. when people make bold statements like this, they really need to be able to back up thier claims. or their credibility is what is really at stake. if you can find hard evidence to back up these claims , i would take a second look . otherwise i will just mark this off as simple, hard feelings case. with no real content.

p.s.s. what style do you promote/ practice. i would like to do a thorough background check on your orginazation as well. give me a name of your grandmaster or a link.

MasterKiller

02-27-2004, 10:04 AM

Mersil,
Before this goes any further, please be so kind as to tell us your training experience and # of years in Shaolin Do.

Thanks.

David Jamieson

02-27-2004, 10:07 AM

uh, it's easy enough to find out where Gene got his fu from. heh heh. The source is legit as is the lineage at al.

I won't speak for Gene though.

I will have to add that the only ones who take offense about the questions of egrigiousness in shaolin-do are those who are participating in it's practice.

Sin Th'e's Karate is not bad, but I think it would behoove you to do your research before piping off about "shaolin" this, original that, blah blah blah.

you know, his brother is relatively close by, maybe you could ask him?

If not, then mind yer p's and q's and enjoy what you're doing if that's what you enjoy.

shaolin-do is to shaolin tradition what apples are to watermelons and if you took the time to ask questions as is buddhist tradition, you will find your own answers.

yeesh, what does it take?

oh well, cheers

mersil

02-27-2004, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Mersil,
Before this goes any further, please be so kind as to tell us your training experience and # of years in Shaolin Do.

Thanks.

i've done a little bit of this , and a little bit of that.

i currently have my 10 year old son enrolled at David Deaton.
( i know , i know, ) but hey are geared towards developing children. not at preserving an ancient art.

there are currently no such " Shaolin Style " school in my town that i can attend. there used to be a Shaolin-do school nearby at a health club that i was a member of. that was a convenient set up, since i wasnt really trying to become a Shaolin warior. i used it as a way to condition myself. and loose some weight. and feel good about myself. there were many types of forms practiced there. pa kua, ti chi, drunken, weapons etc. it was all overwhelming.( i liked it too )

i think i may be too old to become a warrior monk type. so if i can get the teaching of the far east in a school that has almost every style of shaolin forms available. then maybe i can choose a style ( animal ) that fits me the best. and then further that training in a more traditional style, if i so choose. i am intrigued by the shaolin monks way of life.

could someone give me one reason i shouldnt practice at one of these schools if one comes available ?

MasterKiller

02-27-2004, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by mersil
could someone give me one reason i shouldnt practice at one of these schools if one comes available ? As long as you aren't concerned with getting authentic Shaolin kung fu, then there is no reason. I understand Shaolin-Do is a good workout and probably provides as good self-defense training as the next guy.

I might add that picking a school based on the number of forms they teach is probably the wrong way to go, as well.

mersil

02-27-2004, 02:05 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MasterKiller
[B] As long as you aren't concerned with getting authentic Shaolin kung fu, then there is no reason.

i dont understand this ( authentic ) is "tan tui" not "tan tui"
is "Ti Chi" not "Ti Chi" is are animal forms not from shaolin?

how can anyone say what is, and is not authentic ? how do i make a dinsticntion from what is authentic and what is not ? i mean how can i look at a kata and say , that is not authentic.

i mean none of us were there when this all originated. and most actual "proof" is hidden or lost . from what i gather there isnt even any "proof" that a southern shaolin temple ever existed. so cant the same be said about all schools that have no direct linage to a "modern" temple.

im just trying to figure why dont they fit your criteria for a shao-lin ( way ) school. is it because they dont stress the Monk style old fashion teachings. and they just have a broad base of shaolin katas. or that they do not stress a student to specialized in any certain style?

please elaborate more on the facts .

MasterKiller

02-27-2004, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by mersil
[B]i dont understand this ( authentic ) is "tan tui" not "tan tui"
is "Ti Chi" not "Ti Chi" is are animal forms not from shaolin?
I'm not going to open this can of worms. Do a search for Shaolin Do and you'll get the arguments from both sides on the forum.

mersil

03-01-2004, 09:26 PM

Heres what i have come up with. looks to be Totally legit and a really huge and diverse Shao-lin Martial Arts System. Nice.

http://home.comcast.net/~mersil/Real_Shaolin_Martial_Arts.htm

For those who cannot read Chineese. i cant either ( hehe) these "two" Monuments are dedicated to Grandmaster Sin Kwang The' as the Grandmaster of Shaolin

Old Training facility in Chen Village
http://www.shaolincenter.com/ChinaFotos/Chen3_mr.jpg

Shaolin Temple
http://www.shaolincenter.com/ChinaFotos/Shaolin8_gz.jpg

Meetings with the Shaolin abbot
http://www.shaolincenter.com/ChinaFotos/GMSin8_gz.jpg

this may not be all you need, but i beleive it will be plenty evidence of linage for me. ( Most systems in the USA cant even get close to this )

so if another Shaolin-Do school comes to my town. you better believe that i will be there. i have found " Nothing" to make me believe that there is any wrong doings within the Shaolin-Do martial Arts Community. or their Linage. ( just maybe some jealousey or hard feelings in a few places )

thanks for your Inputs..its allowed me to come up with the answers i was looking for.

P.s. there are a lot of usefull links from within this forum. and from the main web site. thanks for that too :)

Just a Guy

03-02-2004, 01:23 AM

Those monuments were a fundraiser for the "temples" in China. Some Tae Kwon Do organization has some too.

When a person searches for something, he always find what he is looking for.

David Jamieson

03-02-2004, 05:48 AM

anyone can buy a stone at shaolin. they are not "honours" that are placed there for you. you need to make a "donation" to get one. but anyone can get one.

To use them as proof is indeed proof of something heh heh.

cheers

MasterKiller

03-02-2004, 08:28 AM

Mersil, please contact your fellow Shaolin-Do brother Judge Pen via PM before you get yourself in too deep.

Judge Pen

03-02-2004, 09:07 AM

Greetings Mersil,

Welcome to the forum. I am a second degree black sash under Senior Master Garry Mullins. I have fought the good fight for SD on this forum for a while now. I believe the SD is legit and it is kung fu. I believe that it has roots in the temple and the material has an authentic lineage. I believe that our forms/katas have evolved into a system that does not always resemble practitioners that have focused on a single system for a vararity of reasons. I know where you are coming from, but you are not going to convince anyone here.

Let me say that our lineage beyond Indonesia is somewhat nebulous; however, as Gene said, all kung fu schools have skeleton's in their closet. Because GM Sin and GGM Ie adopted Japanese trappings, people here will question whether our art is Japanese, Chinese, or kempo misc. You are not going to convince them otherwise. Because all of our material has been filtered through GM Sin, and to some degree, his brother Hiang, it has taken on a flavor independent of most of the CMA practiced by the members here. It doesn't make it less authentic, but it does make it different.

Have faith in your style and speak objectively here and you will be fine. You will be attacked by some trolls that just love to get things started, but that will die down and you can learn a lot from some of the posters on this forum. Gene, MK, and Kung Lek included. If you want to go through the logical argument that is SD on KFO, then I'll support you when I can, but it's a bit redundant to those who post regularly.

PM me so I can learn more about you and your SD training.

norther practitioner

03-02-2004, 10:38 AM

Mersil, welcome.

Someone said this here a long time ago...

Don't prove it to us, prove it to yourself...

meaning, don't worry about us, worry about yourself, if you are getting what you want out of your training, then great.

mersil

03-02-2004, 05:27 PM

My Last post on this Subject:

the only point i would have argued in public, is the fact that the Katas are of Shaolin origin. As far as the style actually being "Kung-Fu" i am not to sure of that words foriegn translation. and how as it applies to the system. also i think in Grandmaster Sin The' book. Holliday "quotes" that this isnt properly called Kung-Fu .

a Mandarin expression for any and ALL martial arts endeavor that is performed in a skillfull and dedicated mannor is actually called " Wu kung"

Kung- Fu translates into an effort applied to martials arts, as a sport , or for theatrical presentation, or for promotion of health. so that point is of no matter to me. I know that it is Shaolin-Do ( Shaolin-way ) Martials Arts. and that is good enough for me.

Peace out. Have fun , and cya

MasterKiller

03-03-2004, 07:58 AM

Originally posted by mersil
the only point i would have argued in public, is the fact that the Katas are of Shaolin origin. Technically, so are Karate Katas. It all hinges on how far from the tree the apple fell. ;)

Kung- Fu translates into an effort applied to martials arts, as a sport , or for theatrical presentation, or for promotion of health. so that point is of no matter to me. Kung Fu means "skill attained thru effort," and applies to cooking, gardening, auto-mechanics, fighting, and a million other things.

mortal

03-03-2004, 08:37 AM

The katas do not have one iota of shaolin in them.

Not even in the bazarro world!

mersil

03-03-2004, 10:57 AM

ok i said that was the last Post :

Now i see how this magazine Forum Works: Most everyone that post here regularly is nothing more than a self centered Master of all Martial arts. with knowlege of every style there is. with that being said. i am not going to be coming here anymore . and also i wont be recomending any of my friends to come here either. Unless they just want to argue about someone's style being better than someone elses. thats what i mostly see in all the threads on this forum. everyone putting down someone elses art.
Man i have read some really Nasty post here. and they had no reason to say what they said about certain people.not just Shaolin-do . You people talk Bad about anyone you feel dont fit your criteria.

i was going to close on that last post: but when i seen this Moron ( Mortal ) coming in here saying that it has no shaolin at all: well that just goes to show that some people will say anything, just to get the last word in. just look at when he says he registered onto the forums . LOL 1969 . see , there is more bogus crap. hes a fony himself . trying to be someone hes not.

what do you think : Sin The' and his brother just made all the forms up from thin air. NO dumm ass they had to come from somewhere. sure they may have adjusted some of them to fit modern round eye people. But to say that they do ot come from Shaolin is complete crap.

have you even seen any of the advanced forms done from one of the skillful masters. Probably Not. you probably just seen a couple of short videos on some web page.

apparantly you havnt seen the list from a couple post back. of the partial list of material Sin The' has. and the origin from which they came from. and could you really proved that they didnt come from where he says the do ?

Sin The' is having a Dragon Pa Kua seminar on march 20. go there and then you can come back with some actual knowlege of what you are talking about. otherwise STFU. get areal life, and get a real Shaolin art.

i have no real desire to get into any long term arguments with the type of people here. so therefore thats the official last post.

watch: someone else is gonna smart off now .
just to get in their last word. that only proves my point.

MasterKiller

03-03-2004, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by mersil
just look at when he says he registered onto the forums . LOL 1969 . see , there is more bogus crap. hes a fony himself . trying to be someone hes not.That 1969 date is applied to all people who were registered here when the forum was moved to a different server a couple of years ago. It has nothing to do with him trying to hide behind a screen.

Sin The' is having a Dragon Pa Kua seminar on march 20. go there and then you can come back with some actual knowlege of what you are talking about. otherwise STFU. get areal life, and get a real Shaolin art.Since when is Bagua a Shaolin art?

mersil

03-03-2004, 02:13 PM

there is harldy any proof of any style coming from anywhere.

Kung-fu. The generic name for hundreds of individual Chinese fighting arts, soft and hard, internal "Nei-chia" and external "Wai-chia". Many believe that all forms of Kung-fu descended from the exercise techniques taught by Bodhidharma, an Indian monk who traveled to Shaolin Temple in 526 AD. However, ancient Chinese records show that various forms of Kung-fu existed long before this time. Kung-fu includes grappling, striking, nerve-attacks, and training with many types of traditional weapons. Internal Kung-fu systems include Pa-kua-chang, Hsing-yi-chuan, and Tai-chi-chuan. Practitioners of these disciplines attempt to harness internal power known as chi. External Kung-fu systems include Choy-li-fut, Hung-gar, Sil-lum, and Wing-chun. Practitioners of external Chinese systems use kicks and punches, rather than chi, to get their point across. Some of the better_known styles of Kung-fu are Shaolin, H-choy-li-fut, monkey, eagle claw, crane, drunken fist, long fist, south fist, five elders, lame, mantis, Pa-chi -huan and Wing Chun. Some styles, especially those that originated in Southern China, emphasize hand techniques, while others, particularly those from Northern China, stress foot techniques. Some Kung-fu are as follows

The Shao-Lin styles encompass both Northern and Southern styles, and
therefore are the basis of the following outline.

I Shaolin Wushu styles
A. External Styles (Hard, Physical)
1. Northern
a. Northern Shaolin
b. Chang Chuan (Long Fist)
c. Praying Mantis
d. Eagle Claw
e. Monkey
f. Drunken, et al

2. Southern
a. Southern Shaolin
b. Wing Chun
c. Five Animal System (Dragon, Snake, Tiger, Leopard, Crane)
d. Tiger and Crane Systems, et al

B. Internal Styles (Soft, Mental/Spiritual)
1. Tai Chi Chuan
2. Others (Pa Kua, Xingyi, et al)

and besides , how do you know what art was taught in what temple anyways. were any of you people there ?

but then again, do you even believe that there was a southern temple, because there is no proof of one ever even existing.

so its goes to my last point made. this Forum is full of people that just want to think they know everything. and argue about anything.

Gees what a way to live. must be so sad around your house.

bye and have a good life:

norther practitioner

03-03-2004, 02:32 PM

with knowlege of every style there is.

there are people here who are masters, or high level students, or judges, or, well the list goes on, and they call it like they see it. I've been to a few tournies now, while that doesn't make me an expert on something, I've watched my share of internationally recognized martial artists do there thing with what they do. I can usually see something, and narrow it down into a range of different systems. So when I see someone doing a form on the internet and it looks a lot different than what everyone else is doing, I'll call it like I see it.

As far as not coming back, you should stick around, you might learn a thing or two.

Bagua is a taoist art, it may have been done by someone at some Shaolin temple at some time, but it isn't usually concidered a "shaolin art." Same with Taiji, which, along with taekwondo, you can learn at a temple recognized school.

MasterKiller

03-03-2004, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by mersil
[B]there is harldy any proof of any style coming from anywhere. That's simply not true. Many styles are well documented.

and besides , how do you know what art was taught in what temple anyways. were any of you people there ?No one knows everything for sure. But like I said, many styles are well documented. For instance, do a web search on Bagua, and then come back here and tell me how it is related to the Fukien temple. You're pretty good at cut-and-paste, so it shouldn't take long.

but then again, do you even believe that there was a southern temple, because there is no proof of one ever even existing.Believing in the Southern Temple, and believing in what certain individuals claim happened at the Southern Temple are not one in the same, especially when most credible accounts place it's destruction in the 1600's.

norther practitioner

03-03-2004, 02:55 PM

Believing in the Southern Temple, and believing in what certain individuals claim happened at the Southern Temple are not one in the same

I was about to say the same thing, but I was out looking for that 1600 date.

Sho-dan

03-29-2004, 03:43 PM

Consider this: If hundreds of years ago there were possibly thousands of Monks or "Shaolin practitioners", and they were scattered to the 4 corners of the world due to political reasons/prohibitions throughout China, theoretically, there could be "hundreds" of variations of "Shaolin" teachings that all have "Shaolin roots" and could make claim to teach original Shaolin, (I.E. Shaolin-Do).
It's almost a racist concept to say that people who don't wear monk robes can't be teaching original Shaolin. We may as well say that since there are no Italians in Texas then we can't make an authentic pizza. You can't ignore the fact that the longer that monks live/work/teach Shaolin in America the more "diluted" it will become, and therefore will never be "traditional". To "claim" to teach "traditional" Shaolin is acceptible. To claim that "they are the only one's" who can teach "traditional" Shaolin is a total illusion. To say that they are exclusive implies "control", everyone who has studied martial arts for any length of time knows that a sense of "control" is never entirely accurate. So, to have some random Monk, regardless of his age/experience, who "laughs" at another practitioners techniques/claims

Sho-dan

03-29-2004, 03:50 PM

Continuation from my former POST: ... So, to have some random Monk, regardless of his age/experience, who "laughs" at another practitioners techniques/claims is absolutely "laughable". Perhaps we should question his sense of infinate wisdom?

blooming lotus

03-29-2004, 06:21 PM

dude...I don't know exactly what you're referring to here, but laughing with another person on their growth into their journey is a better way of handling your observations than the straight out violence ( verbal or otherwise) than alot of unlightened or anaware people too often take;)

it's cute...I oten walk around thinking "that's the funniest thing I ever heard/saw"...as I watch people in their personal physcologies and delimas???:p :D ;)

Fen

03-29-2004, 08:44 PM

All you need to do is have Gis and belts -- lets not forget the big banner in the window saying "SHAOLIN KUNG FU" and you have the "REAL" traditional stuff!!! It's sad :(, but in todays MA world it's true! But do not feel bad, Shaolin Do'h has the name to.

~Jason

Banjos_dad

03-30-2004, 05:29 AM

Tae Bo is not Shaolin.

MasterKiller

03-30-2004, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by Sho-dan
To say that they are exclusive implies "control", everyone who has studied martial arts for any length of time knows that a sense of "control" is never entirely accurate. How about claiming to be "The Grandmaster of all Shao-Lin"? That's pretty exclusionary, huh?:rolleyes:

Judge Pen

03-30-2004, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by MasterKiller
How about claiming to be "The Grandmaster of all Shao-Lin"? That's pretty exclusionary, huh?:rolleyes:

Grandmaster of what was considered shaolin at a particular moment in history as taught by various chinese teachers in Indonesia, then yes, fairly exclusionary.

That might not be clear from that title, but when you read the SD history, whether you believe all or it, some of it, or none of it, that's what they are saying.

Fred Sanford

03-30-2004, 04:45 PM

it has taken on a flavor independent of most of the CMA practiced by the members here. It doesn't make it less authentic, but it does make it different.

If by independent you mean lacking any of the body mechanics that make those styles what they are, sure. anybody can buy videos and learn and imitate forms.

you bought the car but did you check under the hood to make sure it has an engine?

MasterKiller

03-31-2004, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by Judge Pen

Grandmaster of what was considered shaolin at a particular moment in history as taught by various chinese teachers in Indonesia, then yes, fairly exclusionary.

That might not be clear from that title, but when you read the SD history, whether you believe all or it, some of it, or none of it, that's what they are saying. Well..................that's the lawyer in you speaking.

For all us laymen, without an * and a footnote, the word all is interpreted as universally inclusive; i.e. The gradmaster of everything that has to do with Shaolin....not just Shaolin-Do.

Besides, if that were the case and it was being taught to the students as such, they wouldn't be popping up on Russbo.com asking Doc why he doesn't have 10 pages dedicated to Sin The' on his website, or even here, for that matter.

Judge Pen

03-31-2004, 10:18 AM

It's not the lawyer speaking, its just someone speaking with some perspective from within the style.

Fred, with what you have seen on the net, then I agree for the most part. Many teachers don't stress some of the individual stylistic mechanics like they should. Others do, but they are lost on their students. Also, Radhonoti's posts on Chinese martial arts as taught in Indonesia supports an argument that many of the mechanics are lost in the translastion. In America, that would mean we have degenerated another generation, but some of us do the best we can.

Fred Sanford

04-01-2004, 03:30 AM

IMO, you SDers are grasping at straws and to be quite honest I don't know whether to laugh or throw up.

clearly some of you will never see the light. thankfully some have and have gone on to learn something worthwhile.

GeneChing

04-01-2004, 10:21 AM

...or at least, that's what some of the monks say. Shaolin is the grandpappy of all martial arts, at least according to legend, so anyone can claim lineage to some degree. But, and here's the rub, not all of it is good shaolin. In fact, most of it is pretty bad.

Don't be possessive of the name. Be protective of the three treasures.

canglong

04-01-2004, 07:24 PM

originally posted by Gene Ching
Don't be possessive of the name. Be protective of the three treasures. It is unfortunate that there will always be only a handful of knowledgable Masters preserving those 3 treasures and a bus load of instructors unaware of there existance. Know your system know your time know your space and devote your energies accordingly.

blooming lotus

04-01-2004, 08:36 PM

dude....I understand what you're saying but you don't have to be a "master" to practice the three treasures

canglong

04-01-2004, 08:44 PM

bl, dudette
I specifically used the terms master and instructor to emphasize the difference between the two. Shaolin's 3 treasures are available for all that wish to drink of its plentiful cup. enjoy...

blooming lotus

04-01-2004, 08:47 PM

cheers :D ..I do ;) :)

canglong

04-01-2004, 08:50 PM

cheers :cool:

David Jamieson

04-02-2004, 09:00 AM

In regards to it "all being shaolin".

This is true.

Even Shaolin Do is shaolin.

Sil Lum, Siu Lahm, Choy, Mok, Hua, Chen, Yang, Li, all the Gars all the Pais, Chuan Fa, Kempo, Kun Tao KunTaw,Te, Karate, Shorinryu, Isshinryu , Gojuryu, Shaolin, blah blah blah blah BLAH! It all can be said to belong to shaolin simply because at some point in time and in some point within the curriculum, Shaolin has effected and affected it's teachers and practitioners.

Ergo, it is all Shaolin.

The Shaolin temple of today teaches forms and sets that do not resemble even in a far away sense the forms of other styles which claim to be shaolin.

Man, we really have to put this crap behind us and move on.

Thé can say what he wants.
I personally know kungfu sifus who have rerwritten their own histories several times. who gives a crap LOL.

All that stuff is a bunch of mumbo jumbo when held to the light of where Kungfu is and where as has been mentioned, the 3 treasures are.

They are not in a school waiting for you to come and get them. They are in your hearts and minds waiting for you to dig them out through the determination and diligent practice it is going to take from you to wash away all your preconceptions and stupid little stories and perspectives that we each hang onto in the name of sacred belief that will give us direction and meaning in our otherwise meaningless lives.

reflect on that for a minute. reflect on this simple thing:

If you were to dissappear from this world tomorrow, ultimately, what would the effect of that be?

If you were to stay for another 50 years on this world, what will you contribute to it?

100 years?

100 seconds?

What are you worth right now to the world we are in?
What is your potential value?
Will your potential manifest?
Can you help your potential manifest through working towards the attainment of Kungfu in your life?

anyway, I gotta go now, just some carrots to chomp on for some of the asses here lol.

GeneChing

04-02-2004, 11:08 AM

Anyone who is Buddhist has taken refuge in the three treasures. There's a lot of us. As for practicing Shaolin martial arts, part of the reason is to protect the three treasures. That is the reason for the existence of Shaolin monks, or at least the warrior ones. Now does this mean you have to be Buddhist to practice authentic Shaolin? No, not really. That's where it can get a bit confusing, in a Zen way.

It's a tricky issue - what is real and what isn't - not just for Shaolin martial arts, but for Zen in general. Zen is all about penetrating delusion. So if Shaolin is Zen, of course you're going to have these problems. To quote an unlikely source here "Do people thing that once they say: "We are Belivers", the will be left alone and not be tested? ~The Spider, The Koran.

GeneChing

06-09-2021, 09:37 AM

I'm posting this here because this thread popped when I searched Rinzai (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?27021-What-do-don-t-you-consider-as-being-quot-Shaolin-quot&p=428556#post428556).

‘All-in’ Buddhist practice combines meditation and martial arts (https://religionnews.com/2021/06/08/all-in-buddhist-practice-combines-meditation-and-martial-arts/)
Athletic types are drawn to Rinzai Zen training's physical demands. They stay for the Japanese flute.
https://religionnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/webRNS-Chosei-Buddhism3-060821-1536x864.jpg
Ginny Jiko Whitelaw Roshi, right, leads a class at Chosei Zen dojo in Spring Green, Wisconsin, in 2019. Photo courtesy of Anita Taylor/Chosei Zen
June 8, 2021
By Liz Kineke

(RNS) — In all Zen traditions, meditation is the backbone of the practice. Students sit with a tall spine, hands loosely interlocked and eyes half-closed. At Chosei Zen in Madison, Wisconsin, though, new students are never quite prepared for the rigor of Rinzai Zen, which asks participants to remain motionless for up to 45 minutes — twice a day.

“It was so challenging, exhausting and painful,” said Kristi Crymes, 47, a family doctor in Springfield, Missouri, who attended an intensive retreat at the dojo in October 2017.

“And yet, it was the physical part of it that made me see — this is what my mindfulness practice has been missing all along,” Crymes said.

Rinzai’s embodied, physically intense form of spiritual training goes counter to what many people expect from Zen practice. “It’s not mystical. It’s manual labor,” said the abbot of Chosei Zen, Gordon Hakuun Greene Roshi. “We’re trying to soak this stuff into our bones. If I want to be effective in the world, if I want to bring compassion, if I want to take care of people, I’ve got to get this into my bones so that it’s available at all times and under all circumstances.”

https://religionnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/webRNS-Chosei-Buddhism2-060821.jpg
Chosei Zen dojo in Madison, Wisconsin. Photo courtesy of Anita Taylor/Chosei Zen

Abbot Emeritus Kenneth Setsuzan Kushner Roshi calls Rinzai’s all-in approach “the highest form of spiritual training in Zen.” In Japanese, the word for its rigor is “shugyo,” sometimes translated by teachers as “deep spiritual forging” — as in fashioning metal.

“When people first start sitting, they really struggle,” said Ginny Jiko Whitelaw Roshi. (“Roshi,” appended to a person’s name, identifies them as a Zen master.)

But the power of the stillness informs practitioners’ habits, on and off the cushion. “It’s putting a clutch between impulse and action,” said Whitelaw. “The thought can arrive, but it doesn’t get acted upon. The student gains the freedom to act with intention, “rather than just a knee-jerk response to whatever impulse is arising.”

Also in play are posture and breath — the Japanese call it “hara,” loosely translated as abdominal breathing. “There is no Zen without hara,” the saying goes in this tradition, as the technique is considered a necessary tool for the cultivation of “samadhi,” a state of relaxed concentration that helps to generate “ki” or life force.

What gives this lineage its signature stamp from others in the Rinzai tradition is the integration of the martial arts and the fine arts — self-defense skills, archery and Japanese bamboo flute. Martial arts build up ki, while training in the fine arts refines it and meditation grounds it.

Kushner, Greene and Whitelaw, all Zen masters, were students of Japanese American Tenshin Tanouye Rotaishi, an accomplished martial artist and calligrapher who co-founded the lineage — a line of Buddhist teachers who pass down a given practice — with his teacher Omori Sogen Rotaishi.

https://religionnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/webRNS-Chosei-Buddhism4-060821.jpg
Anita Taylor practices archery at Chosei Zen dojo in Madison, Wisconsin. Photo courtesy of Anita Taylor/Chosei Zen

In 1972 Tanouye and Omori established Chozen-ji in Honolulu. It was the first temple of Rinzai Daihonzan Zen outside of Japan, and Kushner explained that its form of Zen training was aimed to help bring Zen to the West. Kushner and Greene as well as another teacher based in Hawaii, Wayne Kyoen Honda Roshi, are among Tanouye Roshi’s successors.

Kushner founded the Madison dojo in 1982. Greene followed in 2005 and oversaw the building of a Zen training center on 108 rural acres in neighboring Spring Green. Two years ago the group bought a decommissioned church in downtown Madison and now the group is in the process of converting it into a third dojo. A virtual dojo was added during the pandemic.

In the 1980s, Whitelaw was working at NASA, following her dream of becoming an astronaut, practicing aikido, a Japanese form of self-defense, and sitting zazen as part of her plan. While she failed to make the cut to go to space, she rose through the ranks of NASA, becoming a deputy manager working on the international space station.

But after her marriage ended and a close friend died, Whitelaw made the decision to devote herself full time to Zen training. “It went from being something to make my life better to a deep inquiry about what the heck was my life about and how could I be of service through this instrument.”

In 1996 she became a Zen priest and today she is founder and CEO of the Institute for Zen Leadership, a sister organization to Chosei Zen.

The lineage’s physical demands often attract athletic spirits, such as the Madison dojo head priest, Scott Kou-un Kiel Roshi.

“I was doing meditation independently and then training in martial arts at another dojo” and found Chosei Zen while searching for a place that combined the two, he said. “A lot of aikido is more aikijutsu. They’re teaching you the techniques, but they’re not teaching you how this relates to being a genuine human being.”

https://religionnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/webRNS-Chosei-Buddhism1-060821.jpg
Abbot of Chosei Zen Gordon Hakuun Greene Roshi, left, and Abbot Emeritus Kenneth Setsuzan Kushner Roshi. Photo courtesy of Anita Taylor/Chosei Zen

What keeps many students engaged, however, are this tradition’s other challenges, such as the steep learning curve of the Japanese bamboo flute, or shakuhachi. Sustaining a single note can take months to master. “It wasn’t until recently I was able to play the high register more easily,” said student Dave Stahlberg. “It’s the idea of keeping at it, even after fail, fail, fail, fail, breakthrough, fail, fail, fail, fail, fail, breakthrough. I enjoy that. I don’t know why.”

Kate Watters first heard shakuhachi during a three-day online intensive. “It was like this guide, bringing me through this difficult thing with such beauty,” she said. “And so here I am. It’s very frustrating, but I remember that sound and think maybe, just maybe, one day.”

While technique is important and frustration a given, Rinzai Zen is meant to prompt a deeper query of the self. “Who are you?” asked Honda, who is still head shakuhachi instructor at the sister dojo in Hawaii. “One of the ways in Zen is to cultivate doubt. The greater the doubt, the better. And that doubt has to do with, ‘Who am I?’”

After Kristi Crymes left the Chosei Zen retreat three years ago, she said, “people responded to me differently and I was responding to my environment differently.” Normally shy, she said the training has made her more outgoing and present in her work.

More importantly, it has transformed her work as a physician — rearranging the relationship between thought and action. “The only way to practice medicine responsibly and meaningfully is through this lens,” she said. “It keeps me being who I want to be.”