Fa Jing?

[Youngmantis]

Hi all, i was wondering does Jing apply only to tai chi or is it applied to all kung fu?

[harkfu]

The answer is yes and no.Yes, if you know how and no, if you do not.
There are direct and indirect was of applying ging.The direct ways are usually achieved earlier.

[Young Mantis]

Ym,

The development of ging is one of the primary goals for any TCMA although each style or even school has it's own way of fa ging. It is important to learn the correct way for your given style.

YM

[Youngmantis]

ok well here is another question related, is it true that you can only issue jing in a relaxed state?

[Battosai]

Hey

I am far from an expert
but
from the way i understand things
your body does need to be relaxed to produce fajing
not like limp noodle relaxed
but it was explained to me like this
fajing is a strike where your whole body issues to force
the whole body and all the musclesworking together as one
now comes the importance of relaxation
is for the antagonistic muscle groups
(kinda like bicep is antagonistic to the tricep)
if the antagonistic muscles are tense
they will resist the movement
and thus inhibit the body from unleashing all its force
basically you are fighting your own muscles if you arent relaxed
using more energy because the muscles are fighting each other and decreasing the power of the strike
which aint easy
to be relaxed
when someones coming at ya full steam :D

hope that helped
scott

[BaldMonk]

YoungMantis,

Battosai gave a pretty good explanation. The only thing I would add is that the muscles are relaxed and the energy comes not from muscular force but internal organs. The chinese term for this state of relaxation is 'Song' (sp).

give me a call and we'll talk

Baldy

[Young Mantis]

Well, I think this is partially true. I agree with Battosai's description of the relaxation of muscles. I would add that at the point and moment of contact, my striking surface, be it palm or fist is tightened. Fa Ging is commonly illustrated as cracking a whip. The ability for a soft flexible object to generate explosive and devastating power.

Baldmonk, I don't agree that ging does not involve muscular force but energy from internal organs. Ging does not equate Chi. I think there is indeed muscular force involved but it is the ability to control the state of relaxation in the muscles. To be able to go from relaxed to tensed to maximize power and speed in a strike.

YM

[Tainan Mantis]

Young Mantis,
Well said.

[BaldMonk]

Young Mantis (your guys names are too similar):)

I apologize for not making myself clear. I'm not equating Jing to Chi. My understanding is that chi is the energy (which comes from the organs) and Jing is when it comes out which uses relaxed energy but muscular force as well. I was merely talking about where the energy comes from: the organs (chi) as opposed to muscular force (li) and of course I'm speaking of the ideal because there is always muscular force involved. I suppose eventually you could fajing with no muscular force at all but I'm not that good and don't know if I ever will be. Just my clumsy understanding. I could be wrong.


Baldy

[ursa major]

Originally posted by Youngmantis
Hi all, i was wondering does Jing apply only to tai chi or is it applied to all kung fu?

Hello YoungMantis,

It has been my experience that that which we call jing (as well as that which we call chi) is a fact of life and subject to the laws of physicality therefore is available to all persons and is not the sole domain of kung-fu... be it tai-chi or otherwise.

Insofar as CMA is concerned what I have witnessed is this: for various reasons some styles or systems take advantage of this aspect of human potential by developing it while others do not.

best regards,
UM.

[Battosai]

Hey Everyone

So continuing from what Ursa Major said, does your system of PM utilize fa jing? if so to what extent?

I come from a tai chi background and so far (i am an extreme mantis noob) that alot of the stances and structure would be a good setup to issue fajing. Specifically I am talking about the alignment of the hips/shoulders which are very similar to the style of tai chi i practised. where in hung gar this type of structural alignment i didnt see (not to say it doesnt exist, i may have never got that far)

but even in the first for that i am learning (mantis first steps) i can see the setup and body alignments.

a most interesting topic

[Xdr4g0nx]

I study HK mantis, and in my kwoon my sifu would teach the newer students proper technique. Then after they are there for about six or more months he start mentioning Jing.

[RAF]

I would also add to the list of fajing bagua (Yin Fu/Gong Bao Tian quasi-linear forms, however some might claim its simply luohan) and believe it or not Yang's taijiquan (there are single moving posture training and long pole training used for fajing). Any of the turnover and thrusting methods of the big spear (10+ foot) can be used as a fajing training method.

Kicks in both Chen, Yang's, baji, and bagua can also have fajing expression. The trick is in learning to compress the waist/kua area and remaining relatively relaxed.

However, as I think you are saying, fajing is far from being the be all/end all of any of the above mentioned systems.

I am still not sure about praying mantis power training with regard to fajing.

[BeiTangLang]

interesting,..so, you are saying that they are mutualy exclusive?

[RAF]

Sc_Guy:

Are they mutually exclusive or complementary?

I have had the pleasure since October of watching Sun De Yao (meihua taiji praying mantis) and I believe fajing is a part of his repetoire. However, you'll note that even in praying mantis there are pauses in movement, a tempo at which things are played and I think fajing expression is possible here. Although I'm still not certain.

In baji and similiarily in Chen's you have kicks which are heel/side kicks, in baji we refer to them as scorpian kicks. They are a side kick of sorts. The compression of the waist/stomach/kua area we refer to as xu jing (to store or bank) ------> fa jing (release). This kick isn't done in isolation. There is first an interception/block and a simultaneous chop to the throat as you side kick the knee cap or inside shin bone of the leg. The compression isn't in isolation of the block and is a part of it.

The fajing is complementary to the speed and movement. Also see it with use of the elbow strike. Seems that the speed of the movment sets up the elbow fajing and the fajing is only for seconds. In fact many of the movements destroy the balance in order to expose the area of strike for fajing expression.

Bagua, I am new at. I have seen the fajing expression in the quasi-linear forms and applications and know that some of the fajing training comes out of the weighted bagua training.

I am still mulling over praying mantis and wondering if there are various qualities of fajing (release energy) expressions. In good mantis (which I never could get), I see the springy like body movement which I haven't seen in other systems.

Anyway, thanks for the interesting discussion, Sc_Guy. Lots of stuff to mull over here.

[RAF]

Its 10:45 am here in Akron, Ohio and we sit anticipating the snow.

I'm sitting here right at one of the sources: Sun De Yao of Qing Dao, Shandong, PRC. Meihua Taiji Praying Mantis is his family lineage.

"Does Meihua taiji praying mantis have fajing?"

Master Sun De Yao, "Yes, fajing is generating from the waist. Both Qi and Li and the arms express pi. Fajing same as in baji."
(translation is pretty tough here with my 1st grade mandarin).

How? I can't say. He just headed out but I am not sure I could give you a detail on how they develop it. I know he plays a family spear form which could easily employ a big spear exercise. I have seen him pick up one of our baji da qiang and blast out a couple of punches that come close to what we do in baji training. If you ever get a chance and you are really into the meihua praying mantis, come over and take a seminar or two.

Last week he did another seminar at Nick Gracecin's school in Sharon, PA. and while he is here, if anyone wants to sponsor a seminar weekend with him, we would be glad to work it out. (He will be here in the States for a while and he goes between New York (Dachengdao) and Akron, Ohio.

Master Sun just walked. Yes there is fajing in many of the basic moves. Unlike Chen's taiji which may express a number of types of fajing, meihua tanglangquan only has one type of fajing and it is trained for with big spear or pole exercises.

He also said you are most welcome (as is anyone) to come to Wutang Center here in Akron, arrange a seminar here or at your place, simply come down to talk, or on March 1, at Nick Gracecin's school in Sharon, PA, he will hold a 1 week seminar.

I am sorry I cannot give you more detail as it has been many years since I learned praying mantis but I hope this helps. Master Sun De Yao is an excellent seminar teacher as many here will testify.

Later.

[RAF]

sc_guy:

If you go to www.wutangcenter.com ---> Photo gallery--->Pictures of Master Yang, you will see Sun De Yao next to him and his Chinese character name.

If what he showed me was correct in my understanding, they do have fajin drills. However, if you ever can, come talk to him.

Sun De Yao Hao Heng Lu's grandson, learned from his uncle Hao Bin. He is a committee member of Shandong Wushu Society. 7th generation and operates the Hao Bin Mantis Boxing Martial Arts Center in Qingdao.

[RSA]

"Whether you want speed or power hard to have both." On the other hand speed can be power. If a car is going over 100mph it is going to hurt when you get hit but if it is only going 10 mph it wont hurt as much no matter how heavy the vehicle is.

[RSA]

"Whether you want speed or power hard to have both." On the other hand speed can be power. If a car is going over 100mph it is going to hurt when you get hit but if it is only going 10 mph it wont hurt as much no matter how heavy the vehicle is. If you hit somebody with a sledge hammer is it going to hurt as much from a stand still or with all that momentum behind it. When trying to catch a fish isn't really a good analogy you are talking about power generation not trying to catch something.

[-N-]

Originally posted by sc_guy
If you hold your fist in front of your face and punch to his head vs if you hold your fist on your waist and then punch to his face. The 1st way is faster (shorter path but may only use shoulder) and the 2nd way is more powerful (longer path and you can put body twisting into it).
Mantis uses waist and body twisting in the first case also. This gives speed and power.

N.

[RSA]

I believe that you can have speed without power but you can't have power without speed. If you have no momentum where is the power going to come from? Fa jing doesn't come from nowhere and it eventually has to have an outlet.

[Meat Shake]

You mean force = mass * acceleration?

Being "heavy handed" also needs to be factored into the equation... A larger bodied person moving at a slower rate of speed will have the same devastational impact as a smaller opponent moving at a higher rate of speed. Therefore, the larger opponent needs less distance to move to generate the same amount of force.
Unless the larger exponent of whom we speak is slow. :)

[RSA]

When one stands between an elephant and a wall, a slight move from the elephant could squeeze him and it does not have to have speed. This is true but if that elephant was running the power would be that much more devastating. On the other hand if you take a 150 pound person and do the same test the person getting squeezed will not hurt that much. The bottom line is if you want to have power it has to generate from somewhere. A person can not just have power. Where does it come from? Punch someone slow and then punch someone fast using the exact same techique and generation of power you tell me which one will hurt more.

[Hermit]

force = mass * acceleration

Equation is correct, but i think you shoud rather use p = m * v.
There was a thread about this a while back, do a search on "newtonian punching".

Though, i think fajin is a bit difficult to express in terms of simple formulas... as is punching in general.

[RAF]

We got permission to post our Fajing training article out of the JAMA and it is now available for your viewing.

If you click on the small pictures they will appear at the top, one at a time, as a regular picture.

You can see some of the two man training, da qiang, and xiao baji jia form broken.

I hope you all enjoy reading and exchanging ideas.

http://www.wutangcenter.com/wt/index.html :)

Its under Articles.

Of course this is just one of many ways you can training for effective expression of fajing. Alignment and relaxation (fa song) very critical but hard to develop.

[mantis108]

Thanks for all the great material sharing. Also thank for the PM that you sent. I really appreciate it. The articles are wonderful. My laptop is dying on me. So I have snail speed in downloading anything (even the pictures.) I am getting a new laptop soon and hopefully will be able to enjoy all the video clips as well.

May you have a prosperous 2004. :)

Warm regards

Robert (Mantis108)

PS your email address doesn't seem to be working.