write a list of wah lum forms that you know

[Shaolin Dude]

I want to find out what forms wah lum have.

[Ren Blade]

Wah Lum has like a gazillion forms. I only learned a few of them the time that I trained there from 94'-96'.

[18elders]

Hand forms: 16 hands, little open gate, straight form, seven Kicks, 18elbows,little mantis, say lok, 36 hands, leopard, low han, wah lum one - six, fan cha, big mantis, buddha palm,lok low,little fan cha

Advanced sets:drunken form,swallow,plum flower, six corners, 18 kicks, 18 locking hands, tin fong fingers, so lo sow, tong long juk dung,soft form

Weapons: 16 style stick,right hand stick,basic stick, yin hand stick plum flower stick,double daggers,single broadsword, double broadsword,flute,spear gim , 9 ring long handle sword, 9 ring short, master stick , 3 section stick,double hook,yin chin broadsword,fan, double axe, kwan do, tiger fork, butterfly knives, army sword, di so gee, fire wheels, whip chain, rope dart

[Jack Squat]

18 Elders

That's quite an impressive list! With all that knowledge and experience, it seems that the WL newbies would listen when you have something to say...........

[yu shan]

You forgot the Two man form!

[Shaolin Dude]

is that it? I thought there's more than that. how about the ones that aren't on the wah lum curriculum? do they have hung gar's tiger crane?

[yu shan]

It is possible that 18 Elders is just skimming the surface.

[racerX]

Wow 18elders that is alot of info. The next question would be how much do you rember?

[isol8d]

Originally posted by 18elders
Hand forms: 16 hands, little open gate, straight form, seven Kicks, 18elbows,little mantis, say lok, 36 hands, leopard, low han, wah lum one - six, fan cha, big mantis, buddha palm,lok low,little fan cha

Advanced sets:drunken form,swallow,plum flower, six corners, 18 kicks, 18 locking hands, tin fong fingers, so lo sow, tong long juk dung,soft form

Weapons: 16 style stick,right hand stick,basic stick, yin hand stick plum flower stick,double daggers,single broadsword, double broadsword,flute,spear gim , 9 ring long handle sword, 9 ring short, master stick , 3 section stick,double hook,yin chin broadsword,fan, double axe, kwan do, tiger fork, butterfly knives, army sword, di so gee, fire wheels, whip chain, rope dart

What were your favorite forms/sets/weapons you learned in WL?

[Jack Squat]

Shaolin Dude-

No disrespect, but what do you mean "that's it"? By my count, thats 58 forms, not too shabby!!!! That is by no means the entire WL system, but it is quite an impressive list. They do have nice forms. You should go to the WL in Boston and pick up a manual to find out the entire # of forms- too long to post. As far as Hung Gar's Tiger Crane, it's not officially a part of the WL system (as far as I know) but there definitely are/were Sifu's in WL who know it from cross training/previous experience. Why not just go see Bob Rosen up there in Boston and get a handbook?

Jack

[yu shan]

Yes it is an impressive list. Not to mention how long the forms were! WL forms, both hand and weapons, were lengthy, challenging and aesthetically pleasing to the eye. There is the issue of the southern flavor... not necessarily a bad thing.

[Shaolinlueb]

they're pretty to watch. pia chan (sp?) is a good performer.

[18elders]

Jack squat-I didn't learn all of them, just listing forms out of the handbook. I did learn all the hand forms except for the advanced set list and big mantis although i do have it on tape.

also most of the weapons sets except army sword, rope dart, butterfly knives, master stick, yin hand stick


isol8d-weapons- spear, long and short handle 9 ring, double b's, plum flower fan

hand forms-like big mantis altough didn't officially learn it, second form, 36 hands

[Shaolinlueb]

now didnt pai chan create the system when he was in boston by combining 2 different styles?

[Shaolin Dude]

this is why I said that's it. my friend asked my sifu(yao li) how many forms he know. he told us he know about 270 forms. yao went to china and learn like 30 contemporary forms so that means wah lum might have 240 forms. unless he have trained in other schools too.

[18elders]

wah lum taught by Lee Kwan Shan had 12 forms.

what is taught now is stuff MC has added to his branch of WL but i do not think it includes the original 12 taught by LKS.

[Ren Blade]

Where are the other Wah Lum classmates that Chan Poi trained with, today? Were Chan Wan Ching and Chan Poi the only Wah Lum students of Lee Kwan Shan? I assumed there were more students that were older than Chan Poi had finished the Wah Lum system. And at least another Wah Lum classmate of Chan Poi's, that maybe learned the whole system as well, might still be alive and teaching Wah Lum out there somewhere and have no affiliation with Chan Poi's Wah Lum organization.

How come there is so very little history and information on Lee Kwan Shan and Chan Wan Ching? And on Abbot Ching Yueng, Lee Kwan Shan's teacher? How was Wah Lum developed and which Mantis style was Wah Lum developed off of? Who was Ching Yueng's teacher? These questions I have been curious for several years because I like to research the history of alot of different styles and it's practicioners/masters. But it had been difficult for me to find these answers. I failed to ask these questions when I was training in Wah Lum way back because I was new to Kung Fu at the time and didn't think of such questions as I was 18 at the time.

[woliveri]

Yao Li quit WL to study Wu Shu so all the forms he has are probably Wu Shu forms and not Wah Lum.


18 Elders, Has anyone learned the Fire wheels?

[18elders]

yep, i learned them also(fire wheels)

[woliveri]

Really? I didn't know MC taught anyone this. Was this at a seminar or private with MC? I remember he said he hurt hisself by throwing them up and getting caught on one of the tines. Do you have a move in the form where you throw them up in the air. I've never seen this form.


thanks,

bill

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

That was taught at a Sifu only seminar before I was a Sifu. I still have a pair hanging on the wall at home collecting dust waiting for the day. They were a gift from Dean about 6 years ago.

Wah Lum has a known curriculum (handbook) but at the higher levels the training is a bit more customized and doesn't follow any particular order. 18elders listed the standard curriculum that everyone pretty much goes through eventually although there could be quite a bit non-curriculum along the way. A good example would be the Demo Teams. Professional Student would be another although the Instructor Program would focus on the curriculum that you would be expected to teach.

Contrary to popular belief, WL students learn quite a bit from outside of WL although MC is somewhat selective about the source of outside material.

[18elders]

we learned it after our sifu test, yes there was a part where you throw them up in the air but MC took it out because he said it was too dangerous.

[Shaolin Dude]

Originally posted by woliveri
Yao Li quit WL to study Wu Shu so all the forms he has are probably Wu Shu forms and not Wah Lum.


18 Elders, Has anyone learned the Fire wheels?

I heard chan poi taught yao all the forms before he moved to orlando. oh well, I'll ask yao someday.

[woliveri]

I heard chan poi taught yao all the forms before he moved to orlando. oh well, I'll ask yao someday.


Let me correct myself. I said:

Yao Li quit WL to study Wu Shu so all the forms he has are probably Wu Shu forms and not Wah Lum.

the all in that statement should be "a great deal".

I doubt Yao Li has all the forms of Wah Lum. A great deal regarding form movements has changed since MC moved to Florida.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

18elders
Throwing your weapon in the air is not something I would recommend so it's good that he took it out. Doing something like that when your fighting makes no sense, unless you're Jackie Chan.

Guess I was confusing that with the Sifu only Lok Low part 3 seminar but I do know only Sifus learned the Fire Wheels.

Shaolin Dude
WL has probably changed a lot since Yao Li was with MC. Back then I believe it wasn't quite as structured and he seemed to teach whatever he felt like teaching. Maybe you could get him to tell some interesting 'early days with MC' stories.

[18elders]

If i remember correctly, you tossed them in the air and did a forward roll and caught them. If he didn't take that out there would probably be a few less sifu's left after the seminar!

[yu shan]

Learned the Fire Wheels at George`s school, a kind of post Shifu Test "gift" to the Shifu`s who passed. Although the form was very short and basic, I appreciated this opportunity. Yea, he did take a cool "tossing move" out, never did demonstrate, we just heard how it went. Seeing the clearance in the handle... I can see why he probably delayed teaching this. MC did say, come to the Temple on an individual basis, and I will teach you the toss and roll. No one to my knowledge ever got it.

As for tossing or throwing weapons, WL does teach this. Straight Sword, Kwan Do, and maybe Double Daggers (all depends on the Shifu).

YL probably didn`t learn all the forms (WL forms from this time period, many have been added since) but what he did learn was very good. Back in those days, forms had ALOT more to them. Forms are watered down now. I`ve personally seen forms from the old days, and have learned and seen how they are done in recent years. Evolution my guess, but why make your style easier? Something else to ponder, YL was sent to China to learn PM. While there, he put emphasis and learning in Wu Shu (thinking this was the wave of the future). This lead to his unfortunate demise in WL.

[flem]

yu shan,


i think the "tossing" you mentioned in double daggers and straight sword are merely exaggerations, much like many (but not all) of the golden chicken stances. for example, the toss and hand position change in straight sword is taught like a throw, but in a fighting situation the same motion is quicker and more applicable by simply gliding one's palm across the handle. but the shortened movement will invariably knock the weapon away from the newb- so it is taught as a toss or "big". with daggers, same thing, the toss allows time, later, it becomes a drop. and the golden chicken, in case you're wandering, is, in most cases, a moving step, to avoid low attacks but not to stand there looking pretty- the easiest example is in the eight punch exercise when turning back from the double punch. it is taught as a posture, but is used as a step when the pong laier uses their trade- mark "getting behind" and attacking that straight leg- just food for thought

[Shaolin Dude]

does wah lum have an eagle form that starts out like this? stand forward in a high cat stance and both palms(not closed fists) open in a fighting position. and then go straight down into drop stance or whatever and arms spread like eagles wings. I've seen yao did this move and I was wondering if this is from wah lum.

[mantiskilla]

first form...100x's...as fast as you can...like you dont care...GO!

[yu shan]

SD

Are you not allowed to ask Yao? That was hilarious Mantiskilla.

[Frogman]

Yu what's up?
Mk did you find what you were looking for?

[mantiskilla]

no, i'am still waiting for the "frog report".;)

[yu shan]

Yea Froggy, what happened to the "Frog Report"?

[Frogman]

I'm working on it.

[mantiskilla]

Yu Shan,
reality can be funny.:rolleyes:

[Olethros]

How about we list the non-WL forms that we know. One confine this discussion to one style, let's expand the topic.

[Mediocrity]

AFAIK, Lee Kwan Shan mixed his families Tam Tui style with Jut Sow Tong Long (wrestling hands) and named it Wah Lum after the old temple.

[yu shan]

To be honest, I thought this thread was dead, but our friend Shaolin Dude brought it back to life. Yet no one is sharing what "forms" they know! There are some that I have just let go, and many that I think are very good. Forms like 16-hands and LOG are good for of course beg. I tell ya, WL first form is killer when you do 100 times in a row. My personal favs... Lil Mantis, 3rd form, 2nd form and of course BIG MANTIS! To me 36 hands is a waist of time, just a crazy group of movements, that don`t make any sense, JMO! And I do not teach any WL forms to this day.

Mediocrity,

What does AFAIK mean?

[Shaolin Dude]

I don't want to ask yao. He'll think I am obsessed about wah lum. actually I am a little, but only because of the forms. I'll try to ask him to teach me traditional wah lum forms. I'm getting sick of learning wushu. usually he starts to teach more traditional forms when you're in his school for 4-5 years. I've been there for 2 yrs.

a few more questions to ask. is there a southern form in wah lum like the following, stand 45 degrees to your right and slowly rise your arms to shoulder level, step with left foot forward into dragon riding stance while arms come down crossed in front of your left knee blocking a low kick, right leg crosses in front of left leg in cross stance while hands remaining crossed blocks up for an oncoming overhead punch. left leg steps out into horse stance while arms seperate like you're holding up the world. I think that's enough already. you should get where I'm going.

is there a shortstaff form like this? hold stick in right hand, grab top of stick with left hand, sweep/block to your left while left leg golden rooster stance, step down into horse stance, hold stick horizontal in front of you, go into left bow stance while poking stick forward, sweep up again with right leg up. all the time you're walking to your left.

last question. are there forms with these names? green frost straight sword, soul chaser staff.

is there a broadsword form that start out in horse stance, right hand holding the guard like a wine glass, left palm next to right hand.

I know I'm asking alot. thanks in advance for your replies.

[18elders]

If your sick of wushu and like the wah lum, why don't you just join a wah lum school??

[Brad]

Lee Kwan Shan mixed his families Tam Tui style with Jut Sow Tong Long (wrestling hands) and named it Wah Lum after the old temple.
When did all the Southern stuff come into the system?

[sayloc]

I agree. Join a Wah Lum school.

[Shaolin Dude]

I typed all that and you guys didn't answer my questions. :mad:

[Shaolin Dude]

mother****ers

[mantisben]

Originally posted by yu shan
...
What does AFAIK mean?

AFAIK=As Far As I Know

[yu shan]

Thanks Mantisben

[Shaolin Dude]

if any of you go to wah lum in boston's chinatown, can you tell me the price?

[18elders]

The lord helps those who help themselves, pick up the phone and call them.

You think anyone will help you after what you called everyone in your previous post???

let me remind you as quoted by you:"mother****ers"

[yu shan]

Send a poster named SaMantis a pm about this, she trains there.

[SaMantis]

Shaolin Dude,

You're welcome to come visit the school & check out the classes. Our schedule & contact info are here:

www.bostonwahlum.com (http://www.bostonwahlum.com)

PM me and I can give you some basic info about rates.

[Shaolin Dude]

Originally posted by 18elders
The lord helps those who help themselves, pick up the phone and call them.

You think anyone will help you after what you called everyone in your previous post???

let me remind you as quoted by you:"mother****ers"

that's because no one is answering my questions.

[18elders]

nobody is answering them because do you really thing everyone is going to be able to understand your form by what your typing?

Start out do front flip, land in splits, put legs together, then kip up, land in right bow stance, grap with left hand punch then right kick back to golden chicken, flip over land on left side. What form is this??

come on dude

If yao is your teacher that is his job to answer your questions, if he doesn't it is time to get a better teacher.

[yu shan]

Shaolin Dude

Are you infatuated with the forms of WL themselves or Wah Lum as a whole? I just attended a tournament in Orlando and witnessed some incredible WL forms. They are looking more Wu shu`ee each year. Not taking anything away from them at all. The traditional guys had no chance competing against all that flash. Anywho, the China town location has tons of class times, there are quite a few WL schools in the Boston area. I have another idea, check your pm`s.

[Frogman]

SD,
I'm with 18elders on this one. Pick up the phone!!! :confused:


RibHit
fm

[mantiskilla]

Frog report?!

[yu shan]

Mantiskilla

Frog report is another thread, it is a lowdown on a tournament.

SD

Do you not answer pm`s? Calling me a mother****** doesn`t push my button... I`ve dated plenty mothers! ;)

[Shaolin Dude]

If yao is your teacher that is his job to answer your questions, if he doesn't it is time to get a better teacher.

I never asked him these questions. I'm asking here because I don't know if asking him would get him mad since he did get kicked out of wah lum. Have you tried doing them step by step? I think my explanation of the forms are pretty detailed and easy to understand.

yu shan-I only go online once a day at night time. That's when I get the chance to see pm's. thanks for your idea but going down to Conn is not necessary since there's a school right here in Boston. boston wah lum is only a 10 minute walk from my house.

I think after my membership is over with yao's school I'll try out wah lum. It's my dream to be part of a lineage and become a sifu someday. Not to teach but with that status is satisfying. I only like wah lum because of the forms and not as a whole.

[yu shan]

Understood, sounds like a good plan.

[mantiskilla]

SD,
cost of uniform...$45
price of tuition...$100/month
time spent training...5yrs
totol amount spent with instructor training program, and testing along the way...$8000
........
.........
Learning dozens of forms, becoming a "Sifu", and being able to teach others, with no idea of how to use anything that you have learned.......priceless. :rolleyes:





P.S. This is tongue in cheek, so don't everyone get their panties in a bunch. I have no idea about Wah Lum in Boston, or the prices.

[18elders]

i agree with mantiskilla, sounds like a poor reason to join and organization. I think Yao left, i don't think he was kicked out(i may be wrong)
What forms do you like? If it stuff you see in tournaments, most of that is thrown together, usually not the real form.
If you plan on leaving Yao, just ask him if he will teach you the wah lum forms, if he gets mad, you didn't lose anything because you plan on leaving anyway.

[Shaolin Dude]

i agree with mantiskilla, sounds like a poor reason to join and organization. I think Yao left, i don't think he was kicked out(i may be wrong)
What forms do you like? If it stuff you see in tournaments, most of that is thrown together, usually not the real form.
If you plan on leaving Yao, just ask him if he will teach you the wah lum forms, if he gets mad, you didn't lose anything because you plan on leaving anyway.

I think if I ask Yao to teach me wah lum forms he will. I'm special. I've only seen these wah lum forms that yao taught to us. cane, double sai's, butterfly knives, some staff form, kwan dao, a few moves of a mantis form, drunken fist, 3 section staff, continuous broadsword, 18 kicks, plum flower fist, parts of a double daggers form, plum flower spear, another broadsword form that starts out in a horse stance while holding it on your right hand. I don't know any of these, only my si hing's do. there's also a double straight sword form that looks very feminine. I don't know if that is wah lum or not but it's listed in the tradtional section on our website.
www.taichi.com

[yu shan]

Mantiskilla

Your last post was priceless... we have alot in common!

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

Shaolin Dude
Don't ask anyone for advice concerning YOUR likes, dislikes and dreams. Go in the direction YOU want to go and ignore the detractors. If you like modern Wu Shu and are more interested in the art then fine. If you like the Wah Lum sets and performances then go in that direction. Wherever you go just avoid the politics and train.

mantiskilla
You must be another one of the clueless ex-WL students that never made the connection between forms and fighting. Sorry to hear that. Hopefully now someone is explaining it to you in simple term you can understand. Stop by the Temple anytime, ask for me, and I'll answer any questions you have about applications of WL techniques from whatever forms you learned.

[Frogman]

I'll ride up there with you B. Sounds like a good time.
;)

RibHit
fm

[mantiskilla]

HUA LIN,
you dont know what you are talking about, but that is ok. maybe if i had trained at the temple i would have learned, dont know. not sure about going to the temple, but i would love to meet with you and maybe you could show me what you are talking about. maybe i am slow, but visuals would be helpful. pm me if you are interested. same goes for you T. :D

[BeiTangLang]

This thread has about reached its end with the original intent. Please start a new thread if you want to talk on another topic.
Thanks & as always,
Best Wishes.
~BTL

[yu shan]

Hua Lin Laoshi

LOL:rolleyes: You absolutely crack me up. What`s with this stop by the Temple stuff? Are you the WL representative for applications of techniques? Well then, tell me about the three rolling backfists in LOG? (for starters)

And just to let you know, I`m willing to pay your way when Master Shr Zhengzhong comes in, seeing you don`t have much money. Is this OK with you?

BTL, to get this thread back on track, I say we list the WL forms we know, and go from there.

[Metal Mantis]

You should really take up my Shifu's offer and come to train with Master Shr. It would greatly benefit your view on things I think. I am currently in Tainan and witness Master Shr's martial abilty often. Very much so worth the gas money it would cost you to drive from the temple to Pong Lai school in Tampa, hope to see you there.......

For the sake of the thread, I knew 8 chain punch, but followed my Shifu (Yu Shan) onto a more applicable style.

[Shaolin Dude]

are any of you in this picture?

http://www.wahlumpai.us/photo_gallery/schoolpicts/sifus_n_master_chan.jpg

[18elders]

Nope,
It is from left to right, Dale Herring, Bob Rosen, Jeff Naayers and then Tom Hausse and of course Master Chan in front

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

BTL will probably be ending this soon but no, I'm not the WL representative for applications of techniques. I just happen to be open about what I know and willing to share with others.

LOG rolling backfists break down opponents defense, also can attack the arms, doesn't have to be 3 times, can be used to block covering almost 180 degree radius. Here's the fun part, think of it in reverse. Don't focus on the direction of the strike. Focus on the direction of the following move. It is now deflecting opponents punches to the side in preperation for the Cern Chung Choy.

The 3 Gwa Choys in 3 directions are attacking a moving opponent. After the last Gwa Choy opponent moves to your left and punches. Rolling Gwa Choy deflects punches to the right then attack with Cern Chung Choy.

I'll take that free seminar now. :D

Metal Mantis
No offense to you or your Sifu but if you only learned 8 Chain Punch then you're forming an opinion of WL based on someone who admittedly doesn't understand what he learned. That's hardly a fair assessment of the style. So how do you really know what you're learning now is more applicable?

The other guy in the picture is Jeff Naayers.

Now to stay somewhat on topic, I know less WL forms than yu shan and 18elders (they were Sifus long before me) but I feel
I understand the moves better than they do (judging by their posts). This came from asking questions and studying the moves instead of just jumping into the next form. I've got most of the known curriculum as published in the latest handbook and that's probably as far as I'll get. There was no curriculum when Yao Li studied and a few sets have been added since then.

[18elders]

I think yu was just messing with you on that one!!(3 backfists).
You miss the point in what we talk about but that is okay, im not going to argue it here, just come and talk to master shr if nothing else and he will explain it to you.
As far as your apps, that is your opinion, im sure our execution will differ. I don't think i just jumped from form to form since we didn't have a sifu for a long time. There is a difference in dreaming up and actually learning what it is. Master shr will tell you his teachers taught him apps that you would never have dreamed would have come from the move in a million years. The forms have hidden moves in them for a reason.

Anyway, sorry you couldn't make it to the tournament, it was good, saw alot of old friends had a good time and me an yu worked out a little

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I'll agree that there is an intended, or original, app for a move but that doesn't make any other use less valid. I don't think it hurts any less if it's a discovered app. I'm sure there are other uses that I haven't thought of or learned but can you prove that was the original intent of a move that is over 400 years old? Are you saying none of the past Masters added anything new in the way of apps or uses for existing moves?

You imply fakery when you say 'dreamed up' as if nobody could ever discover a valid use for a move. Sorry, but I believe there's more than one way to skin a cat.

BTW, I have no reason to think you guys are lying when you say you had no clue about WL techniques and were taught zero applications. I answered his question. I didn't say figure it out, or danced around the subject. You don't have to agree with it, I don't care much for some of your apps either (the arm hooking in Sup Baat Sow, in my opinion, is better in the Kenpo and Wah Lum version). Feel free to show me something better. I'm open.

You know, I'm a backyard mechanic. I use screwdrivers also as chisels and prybars. The intended use is for turning screws but they work quite well in other ways and it seems to get the job done. You can also stab someone to death with it like a knife (or so I've heard). Guess my Kung Fu is the same.

[18elders]

Use the knife on me so i get a clean cut.