Bagua and Hsing-I questions...

[Brithlor]

Hi,

I know very little about the internal arts, but from what I see externally it is very interesting... Especially Hsing-I and Bagua.

MY main question is; what are the basic differences and similarities between Bagau and Hsing-I? No need for an indepth answer... I'm not looking for a book's worth of information (although I wouldn't REFUSE it :)). But I'm just looking for the general differences...

For example... from my understanding Bagua is mainly circular while Hsing-I utilizes mainly linear movements, is that correct?

Which of the two uses more throws and leverages?

Does either favor any specific range of combat as opposed to another (ie; more close range like Wing Chun or longer range like Choy Li Fut)?

Does one focus on kicks any more than the other?

Anyone have two GOOD clips of Bagua and Hsing I that they wouldn't mind sharing? :) I never find many good clips of those two martial arts on the internet.

If someone who mainly does a more external art (with SOME internal qualities) like Wing Chun (William Cheung lineage) what internal art do you think would best compliment my wing chun movments? Would one be more benificial than the other health-wise?

Thanks in advance to anyone taking the time to answer some these questions.

[BAI HE]

Go to www.shenwu.com, on the main page you can click Xingyiquan for an overvirew of the art and BaGUa for a good overview of that art.

You can find alot of IMA clips at www.emptyflower.com.

[Thundermudd]

I have heard it put this way - and I tend to agree.
Bagua - refined body and hand methods. Smootheness, constantly changing.
Xing Yi - Full on blow the opponent out attacks, YAAHHRRGGHH!
I'd go w/ what Bai He said - check out Shen Wu and Emptyflower. Look around and you are bound to find some information on the differences between the two. Sometimes they are obvious - sometimes they are quite subtle.

[count]

Tai chi is like a rubber ball, Hsing-I is like a metal ball and bagua is like a ball of string.


Originally posted by Brithlor
]Hi,

I know very little about the internal arts, but from what I see externally it is very interesting... Especially Hsing-I and Bagua.

MY main question is; what are the basic differences and similarities between Bagau and Hsing-I? No need for an indepth answer... I'm not looking for a book's worth of information (although I wouldn't REFUSE it :)). But I'm just looking for the general differences...

For example... from my understanding Bagua is mainly circular while Hsing-I utilizes mainly linear movements, is that correct?
Both are circular although Hsing-I tends to be tighter.


Which of the two uses more throws and leverages?
Well, I've had limited training in Hsing-I but I would say bagua uses more throws.

Does either favor any specific range of combat as opposed to another (ie; more close range like Wing Chun or longer range like Choy Li Fut)?
No, both favor being on you like white on rice.

Does one focus on kicks any more than the other?
No, both focus on using the lower basin for many distruction techniques.

Anyone have two GOOD clips of Bagua and Hsing I that they wouldn't mind sharing? :) I never find many good clips of those two martial arts on the internet.
check out the forums at Empty Flower (http://emptyflower.com). Its mainly a Hsing-I website but open to all styles.

If someone who mainly does a more external art (with SOME internal qualities) like Wing Chun (William Cheung lineage) what internal art do you think would best compliment my wing chun movments? Would one be more benificial than the other health-wise?
By compliment do you mean fill in the gaps or enhance the strengths? I would say the whole idea of bagua is to enhance any martial art you have.

Thanks in advance to anyone taking the time to answer some these questions.
Your welcome, I hope I helped. :)

[Leimeng]

~ Count - What about if you are eating brown rice, black rice, red rice, or wild rice?
:)

Peace,

Sin Loi

Yi Beng, Kan Xue

Flatulo Ergo Sum

(***INSERT YOUR OWN SMART A$$ED REMARK IN THIS SPACE***)

[Brithlor]

Thanks for the answers :).

Just curious, but do you do ShenWu Bai He?

Which internal art do you guys think would be best for someone around 5' 8"? 160 pounds?

Which art would lend itself most readily to complimenting wing chun while not necessarily using the actual Bagua/Hsing-I/Tai Chi techniques per say..? I mean, using the principles and internal strengthing of the internal arts while using an art like Wing chun.

What internal art would be the MOST similiar to wing chun and which would be the least? I'm guessing Hsing-I might be the most similar but that is just a guess...

I heard someone say on another message board that Tai Chi is the most internal and offers the most health benifits up front with the least martial abilties at the beginning while offering the most powerful external abilties after a long time of training.... While Hsing-I is the opposite giving the most combat ready applications at the beginning but not having the same kind of power later on and not having the same level of health generating... with Bagua is in the middle of those two extremes.

Is that simplifing things too much or is that somewhat accurate?

Every Bagua teacher in my area also knows Hsing-I so I suppose I can try both out immediatly :).

PS, I know in movies that no art can be displayed 100% accurate, like the wing chun seen in movies... But I was just curious how faithful the Hsing-I and Bagua is as seen in the movie "The One" with Jet Li?

[Brithlor]

Wow, those are a lot of nice clips on that emptyflower site!!!

I don't know why I didn't find anything like that when I did a search, but I have them now so thanks a lot!

[QuaiJohnCain]

Here's another link to some more video clips of Hsing-I and Bagua for ya....

http://www.hsing-i.com/pics/index.html

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Brithlor
Thanks for the answers :).

Which art would lend itself most readily to complimenting wing chun while not necessarily using the actual Bagua/Hsing-I/Tai Chi techniques per say..? I mean, using the principles and internal strengthing of the internal arts while using an art like Wing chun.
Xingyi. But I think you should run one way or the other.



Good guess.

[QUOTE]I heard someone say on another message board that Tai Chi is the most internal and offers the most health benifits up front with the least martial abilties at the beginning while offering the most powerful external abilties after a long time of training.... While Hsing-I is the opposite giving the most combat ready applications at the beginning but not having the same kind of power later on and not having the same level of health generating... with Bagua is in the middle of those two extremes.

Is that simplifing things too much or is that somewhat accurate?
I think it's too simplified. It really depends on the individual and the training method, every school is different. Taiji can take a while to apply properly but 10 years?(as many people say) Too long. Someone taking that long either stinks or has a stinky teacher, IMO. And yes, if trained properly Xingyi can be learned VERY quickly. Power only increases as you practice more (this goes for any style). Xingyi is just as good as Taiji for health IMO, but most people don't really train hard enough to really affect thier health.


Every Bagua teacher in my area also knows Hsing-I so I suppose I can try both out immediatly :).
Just keep in mind that Bagua is very difficult to learn without at least a little experience in Xingyi or Taiji...


PS, I know in movies that no art can be displayed 100% accurate, like the wing chun seen in movies... But I was just curious how faithful the Hsing-I and Bagua is as seen in the movie "The One" with Jet Li?
BLECH. Too much WuShu PooShoo flavor for me. But that's what Jet Li is good at. But it aint Xingyi/Bagua. His Taiji stinks (Twin Warriors)

[Brithlor]

From my limited perspective it seemed like the Xing Yi and Pakua in The One was about as faithful as you could get in movie form...

Atleast comparing it with the few clips of each of those arts I downloaded before.

QUOTE: "Xingyi. But I think you should run one way or the other."


So... You you don't really reccomend that I look for any martial art to compliment my wing chun at all? You feel it would be best to either learn one or the other?

Also, Pakua wouldn't be a good choice because it requires a level of skill in Xing Yi?

A wing chun teacher I know of utilizes both Tai Chi and Wing Chun... From what I understand THAT combination does work... Does anyone disagree?

Thanks for the replies everyone :).

Just curious, but are internal arts things that can be "Jeet Kune Do-ized" like more external arts? ie; taking certain aspects that are useful? I know that even more external arts like wing chun require a lot of training to become effective with any technique, but I was wondering if arts like Pagua are the same, or do they require even a deeper understanding of the basics before any aspect can be applied?

Thanks for the answers :).

[Walter Joyce]

Two minor points.

Its either pa kua or ba gua.

And I don't know jack about xing I but I've been doing ba gua for about 5 years.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Brithlor
From my limited perspective it seemed like the Xing Yi and Pakua in The One was about as faithful as you could get in movie form...

Atleast comparing it with the few clips of each of those arts I downloaded before.

he's too stiff. he can do the movement but the internal principles just aren't there.


QUOTE: "Xingyi. But I think you should run one way or the other."

So... You you don't really reccomend that I look for any martial art to compliment my wing chun at all? You feel it would be best to either learn one or the other?
If you learn Xingyi, you will eventually trash what you learned in WC. Guaranteed.


Also, Pakua wouldn't be a good choice because it requires a level of skill in Xing Yi?
or taiji, yes. the basics anyways.


A wing chun teacher I know of utilizes both Tai Chi and Wing Chun... From what I understand THAT combination does work... Does anyone disagree?
Yes. WC is "pollusive" toward Taiji. It's too dependent on trapping, which can get you into trouble with an internal player. But were getting nit-picky here, see below.


Just curious, but are internal arts things that can be "Jeet Kune Do-ized" like more external arts? ie; taking certain aspects that are useful? I know that even more external arts like wing chun require a lot of training to become effective with any technique, but I was wondering if arts like Pagua are the same, or do they require even a deeper understanding of the basics before any aspect can be applied?
I think the reason that mixing is so popular right now because the purists train poorly, so they end up looking outside thier system for answers. It's sad, I've seen "10th degree" types neglect the most basic drills that can be found in any decent boxing studio fer chrissake. What I'm saying is that training a system is different from training to fight, and that any system can be used so long as the training methods of actual fighting are good. Fighting principles are universal. So, get your goals straight, do you want to learn a system, or learn to fight? If you want to learn to fight then learn from someone who can do that, then style becomes pretty irrelevant. With that said, if you insist on mixing Xingyi or Bagua with something, I say each other. But it sounds to me that you already like WC alot, so ultimately you should stick with that. Naturally, it takes time to learn to apply from any system, but if you don't start seeing MAJOR results within a year or so, it's time to find a better school.

[Brithlor]

Thanks for the reply.

I'm not necessarily intending on mixing any martial arts or even learning an internal art at all. I mainly just want to hear more about the internal arts incase I do decide to take up one.

":Yes. WC is "pollusive" toward Taiji. It's too dependent on trapping, which can get you into trouble with an internal player. But were getting nit-picky here, see below.""

That's a bit too general of a statement, especially saying it's TOO dependant on trapping. There are many styles and lineages of wing chun, and many different approachs by people in the same lineage... saying that it's too dependant on trapping is like me saying that Tai Chi is too dependant on push hands in combat...

Trapping is a very loose term and can mean a lot of things... it's more than just pulling one arm over the other... besides, its the same like Tai Chi, there are a lot of bad martial artists and most of them can't apply what are very effective principles. Don't underestimate good wing chun :). Especially if you just expect to twist your arms up. No good wing chun guy seeks traps... they are gifts and are taken advantage of when the opponent gives them, but never DEPENDANT on...

But anyway, I don't see why principles or internal strengthing can't be passed over from one art to the other and I don't understand why that can't be the purpose of training in on to begin with... I mean, lets just say that Xying Yi people for whatever reason don't have the same kind of touch sense that wing chun people have (I really have no idea if they do or don't though). If I can fight blindfolded (obviously with SOME precontact) why should I forget about all the training that allowed me to do that just so I can apply "pure" XingYi? Same with if I training Tai Chi to develope internal power... if I knew Tai Chi prior to doing Wing Chun why should I cease training in whatever it was that gave me that internal strength?

Thanks for the replies everyone, especially the videos... :)

[MusicalGirevik]

Brithlor,

I've been studying Bagua for 1.5 months now, with negligible prior experience in internal martial arts.

When I first started, I was assured that no previous experience in any MA was required for this system of Bagua. And sure enough, our training took a from-the-ground up approach. We have a teacher who not only shows us what to do, but also explains why we do what we do and on top of that gives us application practice to understand what we're learning in a martial context.

I would say visit all the teachers you can in your area if you haven't done so already, ask lots of questions, then choose one who best matches your goals.

-MG

[CD Lee]

I think the reason some are saying not to mix the two WC and XY, is because most likely the power generation methods are very different. If you learn to issue power as in Xingyi, yes I think it would cause you to either do it the Xingyi way or the WC way because the two most likely do not mix. What this really means, is that in WC, there may be methods and techniques that RELY on external power aligning, and positioning. This does not work in Xingyi. You must follow internal principles IF you want to do what Xingyi does.

I would venture to guess that Xingyi could be applied to Wing Chun, but only a limited amount of ways. There are most likely Wing Chun positions and methods that are outside the principles of internal arts. Not to say the one is better than the other. They are simply different.

You notice Bagua and Xingyi guys mix a lot as well as TC. That is because all three of those arts use a LOT of the same principles to issue power. They do it different ways, and have different philosophies in combat, but they do align similar, and use power in similar fashions. They express it differently.

[Brithlor]

Thanks everyone for the replies :).

My teacher says that striking and forward energy in wing chun is from internal power that is developed in the SLT... I'm not sure if it is different than the way Hsing-I does it or not...

I may be asking a little too much, but how is power generated in Hsing-I?

Just curious, but why do so many people seem to like to train in both Wing chun and Tai Chi if the internal principles are much different? Or is Hsing-I much different in power generating principles, and if that is the case how can people mix both Hsing-I and Tai Chi together?

My own personal plan is to train in a few martial arts until I can really understand what is the purpose of each aspect of the art before I decide what aspect of one art should be replaced with another. So I'm definitetly NOT going to be mixing Hsing-I and Wing Chun any time soon.

But if someone WERE to mix martial arts, even conflicting ones couldn't the just remove aspects they didn't like and modify thier art to fit in with the principles they feel are superior for themselves? For a simple explanation... lets say I took the power generating and formation of the fist from Hsing-I, but used wing chun blocks and modified wing chun foodwork to blend in with Hsing-I movements... Would that not work? Not that I have any intention until I train in both arts for a long while, but I'm just wondering.

One more question if I may... in wing chun most of the time wether a straight or round attack is thrown we attempt to move from the inside to the outside so that only one arm is a threat for a few seconds, do any internal martial arts use those kind of tactics or do they generally fight in the inside destroying the opponent's structure so that even though they're inside their attacks that they can't do very much damage.

BTW, I saw a clip of a Pagua guy doing some "spinning" moves around his opponent and in front of him... are these legitimate techniques for "on the street" or more like some kind of training drill? It looked very impressive but I didn't grasp the reason for the spins...

Thanks once again for all the great help... I know of a few people studying Hsing-I in my area so thier must also be a Hsing-I instructor hidden around here somewhere :).

[l@zylee]

So... You you don't really reccomend that I look for any martial art to compliment my wing chun at all? You feel it would be best to either learn one or the other?

Hi Brithlor I study Wing Chun and I also found myself looking for an Internal Art to as you say "compliment" it. Luckly my Sifu also teaches Tai Chi. I learnt the movements of the short form and embarked on practising it daily like with my Wing Chun. Through this I learnt a couple of lessons.

Firstly, If your like me and work 8hrs a day you won't have the time for both, trust me. Or a least not enough time to give both styles the time and effort they deserve.

And secondly, as has been said on this thread, they are way off eachother in terms of principles and I had a period of being a bit all over the place because of this I feel.

I'm glad I experienced the above because it has made me realise that Wing Chun has everything you need internally and externally remember it is a complete system, I am now a firm believer it has all that I need. I do still practise the Tai Chi from time to time but only so I don't forget the movements.

So, I would say continue giving WC 100% or if you genuinely feel it hasn't got everything you need, put it aside and try something else.


:D

[Walter Joyce]

Just a quick response.

Personally, the physical mechanics of ANY neijia art are so different from generating power externally that I find it counter productive to try and mix the two.

As for what makes an art internal, well I am not about to open that can of worms again.

[NeedsPractice]

Practicing an internal art may improve your understanding and issuing of power in wing chun. Practicing an internal art may improve your understanding of how to use your body to generate power, in addition to being able to deal with incoming force and energy. These things are already there in wing chun, but it depnds on who you learn wing chun from. Also wing chun is a close range art that is concerned with very precise movements due to the closeness of your opponent, the three main internals tend to have a different type of movement than you are used to in wing chun, and thier own emphasis on precision and exactness.
Bottom line if you have the time and energy to do both arts go for it, but the more things you study will slow down your learning curve to some degree.

[Phil Redmond]

Does anyone know of a clip of Baat Gua walking the circle?

[Odie-wan]

In the "for what it's worth" category, both local WC schools also teach Tai Chi. Carl D. teaches Chen and Master Buddy Wu teaches Yang. Mr. Wu describes both as very powerful but the difference being (basically) that TC has long power and TC has short power. I hope I've represented that correctly. My point though is that TC doesn't appear to interfere with either one's WC.

Good luck.