Wooden Dummy - HELP!

[Can-O-Bud]

I was taught the dummy form a few years ago by a friend of mine who teaches martial arts.

I left it for a while and forgot a few of the moves.

Now i'm relearning it and I bought an instructional video specifically on the wooden dummy to help me.

The trouble is that the form on the video is very different to the one I originally learnt!! Although some of the moves are the same, they seem to be in a different order.(?)

I always thought that there was only one definative dummy form?

What should I do? Stick to my old form or learn a new different one?

Thanks

[yuanfen]

Don't know who taught you what. But if he was good- stick to what he taught you and keep an open mind on the rest.

You can make adjustmnets and corrections later if and when other things make sense.

[Nick Forrer]

The sequence of the dummy form is only really relevant if you take each movement as linked to the last i.e. as a series of moves to be performed in actual combat, one after the other.

If you take each movement or action as a seperate movement in its own right then this ceases to be a relevant consideration.

I have heard from various sources(I dont know if this is actually true or not) that Ip man would often change the sequence in which he taught the dummy form and moreover that when he first came to hong kong he had actually forgotten it, prefering instead just to 'free form'.

I do know for a fact that WSL changed his dummy form a number of times over the years and I have video footage of him performing three different dummy forms- all have the same basic movements but the sequence is different in each case.

Moving on to the actual form itself, the main purpose of the dummy form is IMHO

1) to develop quick, agile footwork that allows you to 'cut in' on an opponent at an angle (as opposed to just stepping into them in a straight line) and to enable you to use your stance to 'drive' through theirs,
2) to practice your kicks (and indeed all your strikes) against something solid (as opposed to the forms where they are merely done in the air).
3) to develop and perfect sharp crisp turning and short range explosive power (the later being in part a product of the former)
4) To ensure proper structure i.e. to ensure that your hand elbow shoulder waist knee and foot are all correctly aligned so that when you hit or apply force in any way to the dummy it is the dummy that moves and not you (this is in accordance with Newtons (2nd?) law of motion that states that for every force you apply there will be an equal and opposite force back).

There are of course others objectives when practicing the dummy but these are the main ones that spring to mind as i write this.

If you keep these in view when you practice the dummy form, you shouldn't stray too far from the correct path no matter what sequence you eventually decide to follow.

One caveat though- the dummy form is not a conditioning excercise. If you perform all the actions correctly there should be little or no bruising or pain in your forearms.

Hope this helps.

Apologies if I am telling you things you already know.

[yuanfen]

Good summary Nick.

[Nick Forrer]

Thanks v.much
I agreed with pretty much everything you had to say about turning on the YGKYM thread.

Regards

Nick

[yuanfen]

Nick-
Another thing about the dummy that I am mindful of is that it os so very different from equipment like the western boxer"s punching heavy bag.
On the bag many try to dominate the bag---emulating the big dents
in the bag as in the case of Foreman punching the bag-in training for the rumble in the jungle(When we were Kings- documentary)-or having the bag fly around- with powerful punches or kicks.
The dummy will move some- but to work it well- the kung fu person has to adjust to the dummy and the work---footwork, balance, position, right timing and release and not being bounced back- as you noted by Newtonian mechanics. Action/reaction- control both sets of forces.
Good wishes. joy chaudhuri

[Nick Forrer]

Agreed

I'm reminded of a quote from bruce lee where he says something like 'I used to train the heavy bag a lot for power but then one day i realised i had stopped hitting it and had started pushing it with my fists'. This to me sums up the danger inherent for a wing chun player in something like the heavy bag- which is not say that it can't be used pofitably but that one needs to be careful to keep in ming correct wing chun mechanics/principles. Of course one can always get more power by swinging the body, dropping the shoulder and really winding up a punch (as Foreman does in the clip you refer to) but to do that is to lose sight of our goal in wing chun namely to develop as much power as possible from close range whilst mainting an upright 'facing stance' where neither arm has a range advantage over the other i.e. where there is no lead/rear hand irrespective of what foot you have foward. This is why i prefer focus mitts, wall bag and Dummy for training power.

On another note the three things i have had emphasised to me when learning the dummy (and which i have heard WSL stress in a seminar) are firstly that none of the actions performed are linked to one another (except for two); secondly that the dummy should not be taken too literally; that at any time the right arm can symbolise the right arm of your opponent or the left arm; and ditto for the other arm, and that moves performed on the dummy may not be how you actually apply them in combat but have to be perfomed that way on the jong because of its nature (such as when you step sideways and kwan sau(in reality you would probaly not be going sideways but forwards)) and thirdly that you should treat the dummy as the strongest, most stiff opponent you are ever likely to meet forcing you to go around it rather than straight through it.

regards

Nick

P.S. Wing chun or no wing chun I wouldn't want to be on the end of one of foremans punches;)

[Nick Forrer]

Hi EC

Thank you for the compliment- Most if not all credit for any wc understanding on my part must go to my teacher (see posts on WSL thread for more info) who in turn had a very good teacher (WSL).

When I wrote that part about the bruising I was afraid that i hadn't been clear enough. Yes when you start learning the dummy you will get some bruising especially since you have not yet become accustomed to the impact. That said the better you get, and the better your technique becomes the more you will be able to really whack the dummy (using one inch force of course;) ) and feel little or no pain/recieve little or no bruising as a result. This is most noticeable in my view when you do high, low gan sau at the end of every section. When people first start on the jong their force tends to go across the arms/sideways as opposed to cleaving right into it at the correct angle.

I believe (as i have stated above) that the dummy should be performed with lots of force, but it should be the right kind of force i.e. force generated from correct WC body mechanics (inch force/ging lik/fa jing/explosive power whatever you want to call it)

Hope this makes my position clearer (again i feel the frustration of trying to communicate something which is better shown).

regards Nick

[yuanfen]

Hi Nick-
Yes some bruise initially because of the unfamiliarity of working with the dummy as well as different levels of other "touch" experiences.
But -you are right- when you learn enough with the dummy you can hit with the right kind of wing chun power and not bruise.
But timing and coordination of wc movements are of course part of the picture.

I would not like to get hit by Foreman either. Interestingly in spite of his great power he lost two key fights-in almost the same way to boxers-Ali being one of them but there was another- Foreman quit the ring
for a while after those two defeats.
Foreman recently was ready for another comeback-hoping to pick on Tyson...he wanted no part of Lennox Lewis who has thunder in his right.But boxing is not wc though some lessons can be learned.
Best wishes for the season
Joy

[Nick Forrer]

Hi joy

Yes i've seen the ali foreman fight. Foreman wasn't out fought he was out thought

regards
Nick

[yuanfen]

COB sez:I always thought that there was only one definative dummy form?
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No. But that does not mean that anything goes either in sequencing or in details of motions...as the thread illustrates.

[Phil Redmond]

Other than keeping with the curriculuum taught in your particular lineage the movements on the dummy are simply phrases of techinques. Their order isn't crucial. I have learned too many sequences to count over the last 33 years. I've even learned different sequences in my own lineage. I sometimes practice one sequence separately over and over. It doesn't matter and there is no "official" version of the form.