Punched a tai chi guy in the stomache as hard as I could

[KungFuGuy!]

Figured I'd lead with that to get attention.
I just started learning from a taoist tai chi instructor, and it's **** good stuff. I asked him why taoist style has such a bad reputation, and he said because most of the other teachers have no idea what they're doing.
I can tell you for a fact that this guy knows his stuff. He had me punch him as hard as I could. I was a little worried that I'd hurt him, as I know I can punch pretty hard, but it had no effect. I actually felt what I believe was the energy from my punch go back up my arm.
Then I asked him about the one inch punch. I've done some JKD, and their version of the punch involves using a long list of muscles in rapid succession. He told me it was just one movement of the spine. I asked him to demonstrate on me, so he then told me to hold a rubber ball to my chest, asked me if I was ready, then seemingly tapped the ball, sending all 185 lbs of me stumbling back about 12 feet even though I thought I was rooted.
He regularly has students hit him and does various demonstrations on willing students to solidify whatever point he's making in the lesson, it's very amazing to watch.
I've done about 6 months of (crappy) tai chi in the past, but I've never been shown anything like this. I'm excited to finally learn the good stuff :D

[QuaiJohnCain]

Yup, you found it.

[Brithlor]

It's not a SUPER huge feat to be able to take punches to the gut... That can be done without Tai Chi training.

But the rubber ball inch punch sounds very impressive, and I'm glad you found a great teacher :).

BTW, ask him if you can punch him as hard as you can in the face :).

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Brithlor
It's not a SUPER huge feat to be able to take punches to the gut... That can be done without Tai Chi training.


How about a sledgehammer, then? :D

[Brithlor]

THAT is... and I have a clip of that one Hsing-I guy getting hit in the stomach with a hammer, which is pretty impressive. However, I still think even that can be developed without Tai Chi or other internal arts. I bet if 90% of Tai Chi guys are punched full force by a powerful boxer without first being prepared that they would crumple or atleast get the wind knocked out of them the same as anyone else.

I'm not dismissing any (or nearly) superhuman powers that can be developed using internal principles but taking punches to the body really isn't that impressive... If someone can withstand being kicked full force in the nuts... or struck in the face with a baseball bat in full windup, or poked in the eye with a sharp object I would be pretty awestruck.

EDIT: I would be pretty awestruck if they remained unflinching after the above I forgot to say :). Curling up in the fetal position after getting kicked in the groin wouldn't be that awesome though. ;)

[Repulsive Monkey]

Wang Shu-jin was famous for being able to take full front kicks to the groin as well kicks to the bare shin and again punches to the back chest and stomach.

[Syd]

The only training that makes my lips curl a bit is the idea of sucking your gonads up into your body to be able to take kicks to the groin! *L* How the hell do you get the big one back in? *LMAO*

[Brithlor]

I know very little about old masters of any martial art, so I don't how accurate stories are about that one person you mentioned...

But if he only sucked "them" up to withstand the kick while that is pretty impressive feat by itself I would much rather see someone withstand a blow to a sensitive place without in some way shielding it...

Just curious, but is Tai Chi and other internal arts even supposed to create superhuman fighting abilities? I mean, you can hear all you want about this master's master being able to jump 20 feet into the air or dodge bullets but obviously you're not going to be taught things to give you those abilities... so my question is; are things like being able to withstand blows beyond a normal humans abilities things you train specifically for, or are they supposed to be natural side effects of one's internal training?

[Repulsive Monkey]

Wnag Shu-jin stories are totally verifiable, because the majority of the recipients are all still alive today, including Bruce Franztis.

You can train for these things of course you can, have you never heard of Iron Shirt Nei-gong, or even Golden Bell cover Qi-gong?

[Brithlor]

No, I have heard of iron shirt but I really don't know anything about it...

My question was if you specifically trained for these things, or if iron shirt was a byproduct of normal internal training.

[scholar]

In high level T'ai Chi there is training akin to "iron shirt" training.

If the guy mentioned above has some iron shirt skill he must have learned it somewhere besides "Taoist" T'ai Chi however. I've met lots of those guys (their headquarters is in Toronto, too)and have never seen one with any kung fu to speak of.

[KungFuGuy!]

Apparently Taoist originated in NA from the teacher of my teacher, now long deceased. I could be wrong, but that's what I got from my teacher when he was explaining his lineage. Apparently a lot of the students decided that since they learned from such a great teacher, they must be great teachers themselves, so they formed the taoist society and taught awful tai chi. My teacher worked for them for a while, but got tired of the BS and left to start his own school, but he still calls it taoist style.

[IronFist]

Were his abs hard or soft when you hit him?

[KungFuGuy!]

Good question. I don't think it was either, it was more..."springy". Also, he has a pretty big gut.
Today I did push hands for the first time at this school. He had me push him as hard as I could, and he was standing on one leg and I didn't budge him, it was rediculous.

[IronFist]

But can he fight? :D

[IronFist]

Oh yeah, and also, ask him about the stomach thing. Go "my friend IronFist wants to know how tense your abs were while taking my shot to the stomach."

And if he doesn't give you a purely physical answer to that question, call him on it and say "you didn't answer my question."

^ Unless that will get him p.issed at you, then don't do it :D

Thanks.

[[Censored]]

They were firm but not tense.

[KungFuGuy!]

I don't know him well enough yet to ask him a question like that I think :D
Yeah, censored described it better than I did.

[Toby]

KungFuGuy!, I'm not sure, but I think [Censored] was taking the ****. Because in my book, firm == tense.

[IronFist]

Right. I don't want you to be disrespectful to your teacher or anything, but I would really like to know the answers.

I know that a lot of MA people are completely clueless when it comes to how anatomy and movement work. This is why you hear people say rediculous things like "I move with my tendons and not my muslces," or "too much muscle makes you slow and stuff."

[Nexus]

IronFist,

So right you are!! Most people have never even looked in a Human Anatomy book and seen that a HUGE majority of what makes up the body in volume is our muscles, not our tendons (LoL!)

"Big Muscles make you slow." is so silly its preposterous. Lazyness makes you slow. Lets get it right people!

[Brithlor]

Honestly I feel QUICKER from using weights...

But I always hear that they can damage your speed...

Is there some kind of improper weight training that CAN make you slow?

[[Censored]]

KungFuGuy!, I'm not sure, but I think [Censored] was taking the ****. Because in my book, firm == tense.

If you don't like my answer then give your own...based on your experience giving and taking punches to the gut, not based on what you read in a book.

A water balloon is firm. Is it also tense then?

[Zhiu]

weights do make you slow only if you train for size. because you do the reps slow and steady and in a controlled manner to overload the muscle. i'm not sure on the specifics but i do feel slower unless you lift them faster then you may gain speed because you have slow twitch and fast twitch muscles and you just might be training the fast twitch depending on how you lift

[KungFuGuy!]

I was under the impression that there is no benefit to lifting fast over lifting slow. Even explosive strength is better trained lifting slowly. Was I led to believe wrong?

[IronFist]

Zhiu said:
"weights do make you slow only if you train for size."

Hmm. No. The only way training for size might make you slow is because being bigger = having more mass to move. Other than that, though, all else being equal, size has no effect on speed.

"because you do the reps slow and steady and in a controlled manner to overload the muscle. i'm not sure on the specifics but i do feel slower unless you lift them faster then you may gain speed because you have slow twitch and fast twitch muscles and you just might be training the fast twitch depending on how you lift"

You might "feel slower" right after you finish lifting because your muscles are all tired and stuff, but once you recover you won't be any slower.

As for lifting fast, it's usually done in very low reps with very light reps, something like maybe you might bench press with 50% of your 1RM for 8 sets of 2. The average lifter tho has no reason to do it, as it's generally regarded as a high level powerlifting technique done for a specific purpose. And it's useless to do speed lifting on anything that's not a big compound movement. So fast barbell curls are useless, etc.

And before anyone says it, big muscles don't make you stiff, either. I've seen pics of Tom Platz, who has probably the biggest freaking legs in bodybuilding history, doing full splits. How many skinny legged martial artists can't even do the splits?

Maybe we should let the stereotypes stay, however. It's more fun that way.

[Toby]

Originally posted by [Censored]
KungFuGuy!, I'm not sure, but I think [Censored] was taking the ****. Because in my book, firm == tense.

If you don't like my answer then give your own...based on your experience giving and taking punches to the gut, not based on what you read in a book.

A water balloon is firm. Is it also tense then?

I did give my own. Sorry if you were being serious, but like others who are more interested in physical and anatomical reality, I don't believe that firmness can come from no tension. Based on my limited experience of taking blows to the gut (like semi-regular training dropping an 8kg medicine ball on it), tensing up the ab muscle helps.

A water balloon is firm == tense. When it's empty, it's not tense. When it's full of water, the rubber is under tension. The more water you put in it, the more tension the rubber is under. Your point?


Zhiu,

Fast twitch/slow twitch stuff - I'm led to believe that everyone has a certain amount of fast and slow twitch fibers and you can't change the amount of either. You can improve the performance of one, however you won't be impacting the performance of the other. E.g. I'm primarily slow-twitch dominant. I train fast twitch muscles in various ways, but I'll always be more dominant in endurance-type events that slow-twitch are geared towards. So I don't think that it's possible to slow yourself down unless like Iron said you're too big and have to move more mass, or your large muscles force a less favourable (re speed) anatomy.


KFG!,

There are various benefits of lifting fast over lifting slow. However, you can get the same (or similar) benefits of lifting fast when you're lifting heavy if you put maximum effort in. E.g. if you're lifting 50% of your 1RM in BP, you can just about throw that barbell up in the air between reps. If you're lifting your 1RM, you'll be struggling every inch of the contraction, even though you're putting in the same (or more) effort that you put in for the 50% set. So you're trying to throw the bar up in the air, but you can only manage to move it very slowly. If your spotters suddenly lifted the bar away, your arms would shoot up in the air. This is a different exercise to the one where you consciously slow down each rep. If the spotters took the weight in that case, your arms would continue to move slowly. Personally, I like to go a bit slower on the eccentric phase and put in the max effort on the concentric.

[backbreaker]

In taijiquan there is something called sung. I don't know how to explain it using anatomical terms. I don't even understand it logically myself. It's a strange paradox. Exerting force through strenghth and tense muscles is considered incorrect and useless against someone with sung. But if you do what is sometimes reffered to as " limp noodle", which is being too loose or relaxed , this can get you hurt or injured. The feeling of your whole body sinking to the ground or gravity pulling you down with your feet stuck to the ground is what I try for. I think you want your upper body clearly distinguished from your lower body , so you use the lower part as an anchor stuck to the ground below the opponent and use the upper body to redirect the opponent. I also think sung is related to the joints , so perhaps flexibility and range of motion is related to sung. Like if you are not flexible , and go into the splits then you will tense up due to the stretch and cannot go any further, but if you are very flexible you can go in that position easily with no strain or tension. Flexibility as it is generally done , is not going to give you sung or rooting. Basically I think through taiji neigong , forms , and other power generation techniques you build a foundation of body structure through a specific relaxation that is not loose, but not tense like push up or bench press. You need to relax and rest on your stucture, and very importantly , you need open and realxed joints . If you are doing a bicep exercise with alot of weight it might be possible to strain the elbow joint. This would be what a relaxed taiji fighter would try to do to someone who's tense; break their joint. Breaking the joint would require twisting and spiraling and not muscular strength. If the opponent attacks your structure fiercly, his force I beleive , should naturally go into the ground and rebound back into him. You could also redirect his energy and fire back your own eneergy into him , but this force should be refined like an arrow being shot through the opponents center. Sung is definately the most solid way to be and is the most sunk to the ground. To sink into the ground you cannot be tense. I liken lifting weights to a form of hard qigong so I think it's good but not the high level or what's most important. I've been told not to worry about lifting weights too much for kickboxing because it can make your arms get too tired and you'll drop your arms if you don't have enough endurance training and I shouldn't worry about gaining weight because it's best to fight at the weight you are normally walking around. When I lift weights I mostly do it at a slow and even pace.

[Roll Back]

Hello KungFuGuy, sounds like you have a great teacher. Good luck in your training. You have found out why it especially important in the internal martial arts that you learn from a good master. It is not all about learning how to do it but learning how it is done when it is done to you. To fully understand some internal principles you need to feel it. All the explanation in the world will not give you that understanding.

With that said, same with my guy. He allows us to hit and kick him and every time I hit him he is imparting to me what he is doing, very cool. Here is my example of what I feel: Hitting him is like hitting a truck tire. The harder I hit the more it comes back to me. He feels like a truck tire too, firm but not tense. Hollow yet filled. Full, but not solid. So if someone does not have a good internal master around to hit, go hit a truck tire.
:)

[Toby]

*Sigh* I give up. Try posting these sorts of viewpoints in the kung fu forum. You'll get some interesting replies.

I spent ages on a long reply, but gave up and deleted it. Be happy in your approach if it works for you, but please try to be informed. Structure's good, but without muscular tension, I doubt you'll last long against a skilled opponent.

Coupla points: backbreaker, spiraling and twisting is applied by your muscles, not your structure. The reason it uses less muscular strength is generally because you're using advantageous leverage and not having to oppose any of your opponent's force directly. Still using muscles, though.

Re kickboxing, weights, endurance. I have greater endurance than many of my classmates, but I do weights. I also have greater strength than many of them. Gives me an advantage over fellow students of similar skill level.

[Nexus]

Originally posted by backbreaker
I think you want your upper body clearly distinguished from your lower body , so you use the lower part as an anchor stuck to the ground below the opponent and use the upper body to redirect the opponent.

Actually, you want the upper and lower budy to be fully connected to one another, moving in unison and acting as a whole, rather then distinguished from one another in some means of seperation. And, sung is developed as a means of "relaxed awareness", but anyone who has trained both Yang and Chen style can understand that Peng requires tension, and in Chen you can apply Yang principles and vice versa.

[IronFist]

Maybe "firm but not tense" means his abs were kinda contracted a bit, but not very hard. Like if you tense your abs 50% as hard as you can. Maybe that's just what he meant. I dunno.

I wanna punch a Tai Chi guy in the stomach, too, even tho I have weak girly punches.

[Fu-Pow]

As my teacher explained it to me. In Taiji the goal is to create more space and mobility in the joints. Activities like weight lifting actually close and limit the mobility of the joints.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Activities like weight lifting actually close and limit the mobility of the joints.
Did your teacher tell you that? What experience does he/she have weightlifting and/or researching joint mobility? Got any references? Got any proof? I would think that it's possible to have mobile joints and lift weights. I wouldn't lift weights to increase joint mobility, because that's not its purpose. However, I don't believe it has any negative effects on joint mobility. I do different exercises to increase joint mobility. Just MHO.

[Toby]

Quick search reveals:

http://www.thieme-connect.de/BASScgi/4?FID=Start&URL=StandardSearch&Level=Journal&JournalKey=40&Sprache=EN

from the International Journal of Sports Medicine. If that doesn't work, try searching for "The Effects of Strength Training, Cardiovascular Training and Their Combination on Flexibility of Inactive Older Adults"

I'm sure I could find more stuff, but I don't want to waste any more time.

[IronFist]

wtf? Weight lifting doesn't limit the mobility of joints. It creates strength through the range of motion which results in less chance on injury if a joint or muscle is pulled past it's normal range of motion.

As I've said before, Tom Platz, the bodybuilder with the biggest quads of all time, could do full splits. I think this guy has lifted more weights than any martial artist and it doesn't look like it affected his joint mobility at all.

That's it. I'm done arguing weight lifting with IMAs. Know why? Because a taiji guy who is also a powerlifter would be a scary guy. So if all the taiji guys are afraid of lifting weights then they'll all just be puny little guys who may be able to shut down my body's electrical system with chi palm strikes, but they won't be able to lift my light 165lb body off of them when I fall on them after they kill me.

[backbreaker]

Could so . The weight will be tranferred through the structure of the taiji guy right into the ground . If you wore wrist weights on your arms you would not want your shoulders to be too tense . Of course my shoulders are somewhat tense but not tense like most people are . I try to feel the wieght shifting down into the back muscles , and then inwards to the dantien point. So I beleive the dantien point is what supports the whole structure. You probably need to develop just the right relaxed tension and springy quality and it's strange that you develop that by relaxing. I guess it;s just the right kind of resting tension , or it feels moe like a fullness or heaviness, not normal tension. So in taiji there is a rootedness which is like a rubber tire as opposed to say , a heavy statue that was not bolted in the ground . It feels like all force can just pass through the joints to the ground and you're totally relaxed not tense. So when lifting weights it might be good to exert force as you lift, then relax as you bring the weight back down . It makes sense to me to do try that instead of being tense all the way through , but I don't know much about weightlifting at all, or even taiji for that matter. Maybe relax and bring the weight inwards resting on your structure using just the right muscles and tension , then go outwards with the weights in a spiral twisting motion without tensing. Are the muscles what initiate the bodies movements besides the mind? Here is an interesting idea , perhaps part of what makes taiji effective is that it properly balance how much tension you have in your muscles , and what muscles are relaxed in relation to each others. Perhaps this is even related to what is called the mistake of "double weighting". I think you want your hips totally flexible and loose but just enough "heavy, resting" tension in quads and legs. My muscles "burn" when I do taiji but I'm not tense. I can only theorize that the weight goes through the upper body and joints into the dantien point and through the legs into the ground. You definately want to rotate the body all as one unit. I think I have heard this referred to as the 3 circles or bows moving together but don't you need to be connected to the ground being firm but not tense , with the power of a tire and be able to penetrate through the opponent?

[Toby]

I don't even know where to start ... so I'll just take Iron's approach. I'm not saying structure's not important - it is. But imagine how well you'd do with structure and strength ... They're not mutually exclusive, you know. BTW, strength training doesn't mean you don't know how to relax, either.

However, when you decide to try your "relax" method for a heavy benchpress, give me a call. I'll bring the beer and me and the other onlookers can have a laugh.

[backbreaker]

Bench press is not my strong point. I would try to rotate my joints and torso to get free, it's all leverage, and pressure

[Liokault]

Ironfist


Maybe "firm but not tense" means his abs were kinda contracted a bit, but not very hard. Like if you tense your abs 50% as hard as you can. Maybe that's just what he meant. I dunno.

Ok I know I hove posted somthing like this before but here gose again.

After doing nei gung for 3 months (as a tai chi guy) you are expected to be able to be punched in the stomache and not feel any ill effect, you are also expected to be able to have a person your own weight jump onto your stomache (with you flat on the floor) from head height.

Now I have done both of the above and while I can find lots of people who are willing to try the being punched in the gut thing I can find no one who is willing to be jumped on with out doing the training.

As for what the ab muscles are doing while you are being hit- we are told not to tense them but to push them forwards at the point of impact if that makes any sense.

I have over the years been jumped on and punched in the gut by lots of people with no ill effect, the only person who I have seen get hurt was a training partner who was being jumped on for the first time.....his partner totaly missed the target and damaged a rib.


There is a Mpeg of a class in hong kong doing this, if anyone is interesred I will link it.

[KungFuGuy!]

I asked my teacher about weight lifting on my first day of training, he said it was fine.

[Nexus]

Originally posted by IronFist

That's it. I'm done arguing weight lifting with IMAs. Know why? Because a taiji guy who is also a powerlifter would be a scary guy. So if all the taiji guys are afraid of lifting weights then they'll all just be puny little guys who may be able to shut down my body's electrical system with chi palm strikes, but they won't be able to lift my light 165lb body off of them when I fall on them after they kill me.


IronFist, I absolutely love you! You provided one hell of a good laugh! Especially this: "but they won't be able to lift my light 165lb body off of them when I fall on them after they kill me. "

[Toby]

Originally posted by Liokault
After doing nei gung for 3 months (as a tai chi guy) you are expected to be able to be punched in the stomache and not feel any ill effect, you are also expected to be able to have a person your own weight jump onto your stomache (with you flat on the floor) from head height.

...

There is a Mpeg of a class in hong kong doing this, if anyone is interesred I will link it.
I'd be very interested in seeing this. Sounds like a good way to get people injured. 3 months isn't long. Is that full time/closed door training? In fact, I'd like to see someone with years of training sustain that kind of shock. For me, the idea of having a (close to) 100kg weight dropped on my stomach is scary. That could kill you.

[Syd]

I weight train every day of the week and it has never effected my range of movement, mobility, looseness or anything else malignant to the principles of Taiji. You may be a bit stiff after a couple of hours doing sets in your regular routine but as someone wisely stated earlier, after a few hours your muscles return to their relaxed state and you are loose again.

It's important to stretch the muscles being worked on either during or after weight training to prevent the build up of lactic acid in the muscles. I have found the weight training only to be beneficial to my Martial Arts.

Best, Syd

[IronFist]

Backbreaker said:
My muscles "burn" when I do taiji but I'm not tense.

Generally speaking, the less the intensity of a contraction, the longer it takes to feel a "burn" and also the longer the muscle can go without failing.

I'll give two similar examples of this. The first will be more weight lifting oriented and the second more "traditional" MA oriented.

1. A person might be able to bench press 135lbs 12 times before failure. Around rep 9 or 10 they would likely be feeling the "burn." This same person may be able to do 50 pushups before failure. When doing pushups, they probably wouldn't feel any burn before rep 40 or so. Both of these movements use pretty much the same muscles, but benching 135 is more of a load on the muscles than pushups, which is why they fail after less time of bench press.

2. This is also why you can hold a higher horse stance for a lot longer than a lower horse stance. Someone might be able to stand in a high horse stance with the knees barely bent for 30 minutes but only be able to stay in a low, thighs parallel to the ground stance for 45 seconds. The second stance puts more stress on the muscles, causing them to contract harder, and therefore fail sooner.

Now let's look at your quote again:

My muscles "burn" when I do taiji but I'm not tense.

The "burn" you are feeling is likely similar to that of holding a high horse stance. You're putting your muscles through a low level of involvement, but it's for a longer time. When you say you're not "tense" I'm assuming you meant that you're not consciously tensing your muscles, but they are contracting at least a little bit because they must do so in order for you to move.

[Vash]

Ironfist has taken the correct, held it in bondage, and forced it to be his love slave.

(sorry. ironfist + bondage = humor) ;)

[IronFist]

It would be fun to hook a "taiji master" up to muscle sensing electrodes that measure contractions (I don't remember what they're actually called) and see just how much tension he uses during practice.

[Liokault]

Toby


I'd be very interested in seeing this. Sounds like a good way to get people injured. 3 months isn't long. Is that full time/closed door training? In fact, I'd like to see someone with years of training sustain that kind of shock. For me, the idea of having a (close to) 100kg weight dropped on my stomach is scary. That could kill you.

Not inside the door as such but you do not do the nei gung till you are about a year in or so. When I say 3 months training I mean 3 months of doing the nei gung (first set of) once a day every day. It takes about 15 mins and other than the guy I mentioned who hurt a rib by having the guy jump in the wrong spot I have yet to see anyone hurt.

I will try to find the Mpeg of it but It may take some time.

IRONFIST

Their missunderstanding based on the term "tense" I feel.

When a Tai Chi guy says a muscle is not tense he is not saying that it is not contracting but that there is no other muscle needlessly oposing that contraction.

[scotty1]

As long as they don't land on your balls you're cool.

[Liokault]

I cant right clik the clips mut you can find them here (http://www.hktaichi.com/) at the bottom of the page.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Why not just push hands with a master? Alot simpler.


Originally posted by IronFist
It would be fun to hook a "taiji master" up to muscle sensing electrodes that measure contractions (I don't remember what they're actually called) and see just how much tension he uses during practice.

[Liokault]

It would be fun to hook a "taiji master" up to muscle sensing electrodes that measure contractions (I don't remember what they're actually called) and see just how much tension he uses during practice.


It would be more fun to shoot a tai chi master out of a canon and see if their total lack of tension alows them to flop to the floor safely.....we could vary the distance they were shot to find who the gratest master was.

[backbreaker]

Liokault owns the thread.:o But it might be interesting to see the machine thing's results. When I do taiji my leg muscles are intensely contracted ,opposing each other and adding to each other's power, sorry about that no tension B.S. but that idea might actually be important to have in developing sung .

[backbreaker]

The leg muscles in taiji oppose each other perfectly and intensly adding to each others force generated. This might actually have something to do with what internal means. How does weight lifting address the idea of different body parts opposing each other? I think taiji is a combination of extreme flexibility along with having all muscles opposing each other perfectly , and this might have to do with the error of " double weighting". All this creates a rooted structure which is strong but has some give into the ground and can redirect the opponent back into himself like a rubber tire.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by QuaiJohnCain
Why not just push hands with a master? Alot simpler.



Absolutely not simpler. Can you tell the amount of force someone is using in their entire body just by pushing hands? I don't mean relative force, I mean on an absolute scale. If we push hands, can you tell me exactly how much force every muscle in my body is contracting with, and graph them all on a scale? No. That's what I was talking about.

[Toby]

Lol @ scotty1!!

Liokault, I can't get it to work. I tried following the "Movie" link on the RHS, then I guess the 2 "Internal Strength" links at the bottom. But then I get nothing. Viewing the source shows no movie file to download. I'm not too good with javascript, though. I believe they both open http://www.hktaichi.com/is.htm , but that's got nothing for me. BTW, I'm running Mozilla under Linux, so it might be a Windows thing. Anyone able to host the clips? I can play any movie format under Linux if I can get the file.


Originally posted by backbreaker Liokault owns the thread


Why? Has he irrefutably shown the correct? Not IMO.


Originally posted by backbreaker The leg muscles in taiji oppose each other perfectly and intensly adding to each others force generated. This might actually have something to do with what internal means.

Or it might just have to do with anatomy. How are your muscles different to a non-Taiji practitioner? Anyway, if you stand e.g. in a low stance, you'll be flexing opposite leg muscles anyway. E.g. the quads and the hamstrings. And why can't I flex both at the same time if you can? BTW, isn't this in opposition to what most of your fellow internal practitioners say when they advocate relaxation.


Originally posted by backbreaker How does weight lifting address the idea of different body parts opposing each other?

If you have a balanced workout regime, you'll cover all of your body. E.g. I do chest and back. I used to do (specifically, i.e. isolation exercises) triceps and biceps. But if you're saying I should contract opposing muscles at the same time, well, I incorporate that sort of idea into some of my workout, too.


Originally posted by backbreaker I think taiji is a combination of extreme flexibility along with having all muscles opposing each other perfectly , and this might have to do with the error of " double weighting". All this creates a rooted structure which is strong but has some give into the ground and can redirect the opponent back into himself like a rubber tire.

I'm interested in the flexibility comment. I wasn't aware that taiji addressed flexibility. Do you do that as part of your forms, or is it something your instructor does e.g. as a warmup. Does all taiji do that?

BTW, you and Liokault seem to have opposing ideas on tension and opposition of muscles. You might need to clarify your positions. Seems he says to eliminate tension. Seems you're implying tensing opposing muscles to increase all-over power. Out of interest, my teacher teaches dynamic tension (similar to your philosophy?) in all our forms and some drills. Different views to a lot of other IMA and other WC.

One more time, as many have said, weightlifting isn't a MA for us who do it (duh!). It's a method of training that helps us improve ourselves as MAtists. It has no adverse effects. It has many benefits. I am not rigid and tense as a result of lifting. I can still relax soon after lifting. I am not stiff or sore from lifting. I am not a bodybuilder, so size doesn't greatly effect my MA. I am stronger than the average student. I still get beaten by most students because I'm a relative beginner. They have better structure, better leverage, better techniques. They are not stronger. Against students with equal skill, I have an edge.

[backbreaker]

Yes! Most taiji styles I have seen incorporate many circular movements in the warm-up . Like moving your hands in a really big circle over behind you and right over your head and back down in front of your body. Also smaller circles with the wrists, elbows, shoulders and even rib cage by themselves. The purpose I think is to create opposing forces in a smooth continuos motion , like when the opponent attacks left he is immediately hit and thrown off from the right. The low stances can go right to the ground. But releasing tension in the upper body and hips and waist is emphasized more and I think you just want the right amount of natural tension. The legs will be really solid and if the hips are loose enough you can shift to a one legged stance. The power should flow like a path from the ground I think , which requires smooth downward sinking spirals . :confused: I'm confused really because I think you need to be loose and firm at the same time. The legs should definately be solid I think.

[Toby]

Guess what? We do that in my WC warmup too. Plus, I recently bought a book called "Super Joints" which has similar movements. Wonder where he picked them up? I also did similar movements in high school rugby as a warmup. My point is, nothing new here.

Standing on one leg is a good way to get swept/taken down/thrown. There is no way someone on one leg can withstand a committed attacker. I mean, it has its place. Like we do sil lim tau on one leg sometimes as a training exercise to help balance, strength, etc. But we would never do it in partner work (except chi gurk). I hope you wouldn't either.

I think what you're trying to say is use the minimum amount of tension necessary, but still use tension. I'm fine with that.

Actually, I don't even remember what I was arguing about originally. I'll just shut up now :o.

[Liokault]

backbreaker


When I do taiji my leg muscles are intensely contracted ,opposing each other and adding to each other's power

How does this work? If your muscles are opposing each other it will take away from your power unless you are doing somthing similar to isometric strength training or a sanchin kata.

Toby


Liokault, I can't get it to work. I tried following the "Movie" link on the RHS, then I guess the 2 "Internal Strength" links at the bottom. But then I get nothing. Viewing the source shows no movie file to download. I'm not too good with javascript, though. I believe they both open http://www.hktaichi.com/is.htm , but that's got nothing for me. BTW, I'm running Mozilla under Linux, so it might be a Windows thing. Anyone able to host the clips? I can play any movie format under Linux if I can get the file

Sorry I can not help you. They work for me just fine, but I feel that they really do not want the clips copied and are not to friendly about it. I will see if I can find another one somewhere.

[backbreaker]

I don't know . Maybe I'm wrong . I drag my leg across the ground in a circular motion to do sweeps. It's neutralizing and the dantien that's important. This is getting into the realm that may require people more advanced in taijiquan than I am with a real grasp on the energies to explain.

[Toby]

Liokault,

OK. Got it to work. It wouldn't work in Mozilla under Linux, Mozilla under Windows, but it works under IE6 under Windows.

Very interesting. Both clips are the same, so I don't know why they have the two links. The 1st jump looks like there is a bit of compression of his stomach (the hitting the rubber tyre analogy that is mentioned often?). The 2nd and 3rd jumps (esp the 3rd) there seems to be no compression of the stomach. Which leads me to conclude that he is flexing his abdominal muscle very hard. Wish I had a stomach like that :D. Anyway, if it's not giving away any secrets, what exactly does your nei gung consist of? I know of a few exercises that I've been taught which I suspect come from xing yi, but I'm a long way off learning XY formally so I don't know if they're part of the curriculum. Also, when someone jumps on your stomach, how much do you flex it? Surely you can't have it relaxed - I would have thought maximum tension.

[KungFuGuy!]

This thread has gone in a very different direction than the one it was started with, as most good threads do, but I'd like to chime in with some more about what I've been doing.
Today my teacher spent an hour kicking my ass in front of the rest of the class. It was the greatest martial arts class I've ever had. My arm and neck still hurt, but I don't care :D
It all started when I asked him if tai chi is useful from the ground, as I've noticed everything seems to be derived from our rooted legs. He explained that it was, and why, and them demonstrated. He grabbed my arm after I punched at him like he instructed, he fell back, and put me in a triangle. He put enough pressure on my neck and arm to hurt but not to do damage, and told me to try to get out of it. I wasn't able to go forward and try to flip him over like I've been trained to do in the past, and by the time I managed to wiggle my head free he'd have been able to snap my neck or arm or both. His power was beyond muscles, there was no budging him.
Then he suggested I do the same to him. I kinda realized that no matter how hard I did it, it would have no effect, so I went all out. Almost instantly after I locked him up, he had me bent in on myself and pinned.
Then was the coolest part. He asked me to put an arm lock on him, the way cops do it. So I took his arm, locked it behind his back, then forced him to the ground. It seemed like he went with me more than I forced him. So on the ground I had his arm locked still, one knee pressing on his head and the other on his back. He asked me if I had the hold as hard as I could, I said yes, and then a second later I was on the ground and he had my wrist locked.
This lead to lots more fun. Me and the other girl around my age, who's also had previous training, spent the next while getting our asses handed to us in turn. Most of it wasn't even him telling us to do something, we just came at him and he'd have us incapacitated in a couple seconds. It was like those videos that get posted on these boards of cool looking rehearsed and expected techniques performed by a teacher, except it wasn't rehearsed or expected at all.
He'd even let us put a hold on him full force for a few seconds to show that it didn't hurt him in the least. It was very...discouraging. It felt like I had no power at all, I felt like a 5 year old trying to beat up an adult.
I put a wrist lock on him that I've used on someone before, it brought this person to the ground easily. My teacher simply took it for a couple seconds without moving, then he said "spine drops" and he was out of the hold, then said "spine expands" and he had me in a wrist lock of his own.
He then got into a bit of pressure point stuff. He pressed a spot on my hand as I pushed him, I lost all power in my push and my hand hurt. It was a strange feeling.
This guy is amazing. I've heard and believed things like this before, but I'd never thought I'd see it, much less learn from someone who can do it.

[scotty1]

Good for you :) Lucky guy.


"if it's not giving away any secrets, what exactly does your nei gung consist of?"

That would be giving away secrets:D

[Liokault]

Toby


The 1st jump looks like there is a bit of compression of his stomach (the hitting the rubber tyre analogy that is mentioned often?). The 2nd and 3rd jumps (esp the 3rd) there seems to be no compression of the stomach. Which leads me to conclude that he is flexing his abdominal muscle very hard. Wish I had a stomach like that . Anyway, if it's not giving away any secrets, what exactly does your nei gung consist of?


I am not saying that they did or did not tense their abs during the jump. What I as saying is that they did not do lots of sit ups (or other ab exersize) to get strong abs to enable them to do this. The nei gung works the diaphram differantly whice is why the nei gung work first on the lower torso. But as I have said they are a breathing exersize and not akin to situps or crunches.

If you want to know more ask Scotty1 as he is about to do his nei gung this weekend.....then in 3 months we can jump on him LOL

[Toby]

Stop teasing :D.

I do various ab exercises on the side to get strong stomach muscles. Obviously I'm concentrating on the abdominal and the obliques, since that's what western exercises do. Mine are relatively strong.

However, my sigung has an exceptionally strong stomach. Different to what situps produce. Probably exactly what your guys have in the video, except he's 6'4", 124 kg. AFAIK, he does no situps although we do them as part of our warmup (in WC). I don't know if his stomach was developed like this before learning xing yi, or if it's a result of xing yi. As I said, I'm not yet learning xy and won't for a few years. However, we have a few exercises. They use tension to develop strength. We are also told how to breathe during various forms and exercises, although no specific nei gung. Strength should also be developed in the core (sigung says dan tien, stomach and spine). Should get similar results to western core strengthening exercises, but different methodology.

Interesting side note - I've got Pavel Tsatsouline's Bulletproof Abs. One of the exercises in the book (from memory) is called Bending the Fire. Inhale 3/4 capacity and suck in stomach maximally. Contract muscles maximally and expand slowly to normal stomach position as you exhale to the count of 5. Explosively expel the last of your breath as you reach maximal contraction and come back to rest position. Apparently one of the most effective stomach exercises in the book, but definitely not western. Similar to any of your nei gung?

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Toby

Very interesting. Both clips are the same, so I don't know why they have the two links.

No they're not. One clip has 3 guys and 3 jumps, the other has 5 guys and 6 jumps or something. Maybe you clicked the same clip twice?

[Toby]

Whoops. I don't remember now, but I think they started the same, so I kept clicking at the slider button to skip the setup sections 'cause I only wanted to see the jumps. I saw three jumps that looked the same in both, but I must've missed the other few in the 2nd vid. I'm running Linux at the moment and can't be bothered rebooting, so I'll have to review them another time.

Any nei gung descriptions Liokault, scotty1? Still waiting ... ;)

[scotty1]

...I wouldn't hold your breath, pun intended. :)

[dz]

*unlurks*

Toby, here's an excerpt from Dan's book Complete Tai Chi Chuan, this is pretty much all we can tell you about the Nei Kung without giving away any secrets.

As a pracitioner of Dan Dochterty's style myself, I've done the stomach-jumping-thingy. Note that this text is about how the Nei Kung was done traditionally. I haven't followed the abstinence rule - and yet I magically survived. :D

There you go:

"There are twelve Yin and twelve Yang exercises. Ideally, we would do the twelve Yin exercises and the last Yang exercise one day and the twelve Yang exercises and the first Yin exercise the next day, and continue to alternate them - although if you are sick or feeling weak, then it is better to place more emphasis on the Yin exercises. This gives us a daily training regimen of Thirteen Tactics, all of which in different combinations are trained in the Nei Kung.

Some exercises are static and have no direct self-defence purpose, although they are very useful in strengthening the joints and tendons and training the determination; others are moving and have one or more applications as well as some therapeutic aspect. Only the third part of the final Yang exercise contains a purely meditative aspect. The therapeutic aspects make the body more flexible and hence less prone to injury, and are also useful as a type of self-administered physiotherapy to help with joint, tendon and bone injuries.

The exercises can be done on three levels: the basic level for all the exercises would take up to one hour for either the Yin or the Yang set; the intermediate level for Tai Chi fighters takes from two to three hours; while the advanced level for Tai Chi masters could take up to seven hours. The exercises are also referred to as one hundred-day Kung: after daily practice of the Yin exercises for this period as well as abstinence from sex, male students can be tested by taking blows to the body and having someone jump onto the abdomen from a height of six feet."


I usually don't lurk on this board anymore, and if anyone has questions regarding PTCC, they are welcome to e-mail me: dz@muha.net

Merry X-mas!

//dz

[Liokault]

So how did it go Scotty1? No nookie for you or 100 days LOL:D

[scotty1]

ello

"training the determination" you're not fvcking joking.

They're not that bad though. I managed :)

One of the boys now:D All I've got to do is train the bloody things.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by dz
*unlurks*
this is pretty much all we can tell you about the Nei Kung without giving away any secrets.

Hehe. Next time someone asks me about weightlifting I'll say something like "well, I can't tell you very much about the Smolov cycle because that would be giving away secrets."

j/k. That was good info, tho.

How young of people don't have sex for 100 days? Um, cuz things happen while you sleep. If you don't release the stuff during the day your body will do it for you at night. I mean maybe a week or two is realistic, but 100 days? Yeah right. At least for people my age (22).

[Liokault]

. At least for people my age (22).


Well I am 31 and its still tough belive me! I mean that I would have to miss sex about twice!!!

[Toby]

Well, well, well ...

From a total tangent, I found myself talking about this stuff with my sigung last night. I didn't get too many specifics from him. Maybe I'm not ready for them. But he did drop a few hints. Very interesting. Showed me how to resist fingers digging into my side, and the results were impressive. Also corrected one of my basic (nei gung?) traditional exercises that he showed us a while back. Made a world of difference. If I knew more, I might be a believer after all.

One more thing, the resisting of fingers that he showed me definitely didn't have me relaxing my muscles. Maybe if I reach a higher level one day I can do that, but I doubt it. In fact, his abdomen (and whole trunk) muscles are so developed that they seem contracted all the time. Very solid, anyway.

Just means I know that I'll have to be a headhunter when I come up against one of you guys. Don't have any nei gung to strengthen your brain against concussion, do you? :p


dz, thanks for unlurking and posting that stuff.


Liokault - you married too? :D

[[Censored]]

Don't have any nei gung to strengthen your brain against concussion, do you? :p

You obviously haven't seen Shaolin Soccer.

[fiercest tiger]

Sounds like you found a good teacher although what type of punch did you hit him with a straight punch?

FT:)

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Toby
From a total tangent, I found myself talking about this stuff with my sigung last night. I didn't get too many specifics from him. Maybe I'm not ready for them. But he did drop a few hints. Very interesting. Showed me how to resist fingers digging into my side, and the results were impressive. Also corrected one of my basic (nei gung?) traditional exercises that he showed us a while back. Made a world of difference. If I knew more, I might be a believer after all.

One more thing, the resisting of fingers that he showed me definitely didn't have me relaxing my muscles. Maybe if I reach a higher level one day I can do that, but I doubt it. In fact, his abdomen (and whole trunk) muscles are so developed that they seem contracted all the time. Very solid, anyway.


What corrections did he show you and what did he tell you to do to resist fingers poking into you?

[KungFuGuy!]

JKD lead punch. With all the force I could muster :D

[IronFist]

Originally posted by IronFist


What corrections did he show you and what did he tell you to do to resist fingers poking into you?

bump

[IronFist]

Come on share your secrets already.

[IronFist]

to the front, to the front, to the back, to the back, to the top...

[Liokault]

Look guys, we need to stop this thread from going any further!

It is clear that we have all developed near super human powers due to our participation in internal martial arts, but we need to keep these super powers (I prefer to think of them as just "powers" rather than supwr powers) from Ironfist!

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Liokault
but we need to keep these super powers (I prefer to think of them as just "powers" rather than supwr powers) from Ironfist!

I want to know about the "supwr" powers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

:D

[Liokault]

The down side of the "powers" is that your fingers become like fatter and typing gets harder.

[Liokault]

The down side of the "powers" is that your fingers become like fatter and typing gets harder.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Liokault
The down side of the "powers" is that your fingers become like fatter and typing gets harder.

That reminds me of that Simpsons episode where homer got really fat and couldn't use the phone, and the operator was like "if your fingers are too fat to dial and you would like to order a dialing wand, please mash the keypad now." Hehe.