The reality of Legitimacy.. 100 forms or 30 you decide

[mantis7]

it actually boils down to this
A good Sifu should be able to understand and relay concepts, theories,formulas and need skills that cover physical development, martial stratergy and the core of the system.

It should be a mote point if he/she have 1000 forms or 365 movements. In martial arts everyone will learn a system but will interpret diffrently due to body size, skill level, and desired outcome of learning the art.

If you have the core of the systems which are concpets, theory, techniques and stratery then there should be no arguement. To many people argue about how many forms are present and who is legit and not. If you move and fight as your system dictates or develop your system to your personal flavor then that is all the proof is needed.

To many people are out their collecting forms and are not truly developing their martial skill. Martial arts are combat arts and nothing more. If a teahcer has the inclination to help to student develop into a moral being that is their decision. If they choose no to than that is also their decision. To many people apply this spiritual, holy mystisim idea to the arts.

If the teacher is a evil man does this make his Gung fu any more inferior to the man who has attained enligtenment. When someone says that martial arts teaches discipline they negelect that this discipline is of neutral origin. Yes, you will develop dicipline over the body, over mentral concentration, of speed, and all that good stuff but it will not inheritanly make you a all around good guy.

I was once told a story that will stick with me for ever. I will tell it here and If I am not mistaken they are in Hsu's Sowrd polisher or Ying ming yangs books.

A gung fu teacher had a student who had trained with him for a long time. The sifu, one day, told the student to leave the school and to practice his skills for three years and then to return. The student left and trained diligently for three year and returned to his sifu. His form was still like the one his teacher taught him and resembeled the sifu's movement. The teacher saw this and said " leave and train for another three years and come back" The student left and trained for another three years, this time he found him self forgetting how the sifu moved and was losing his sifus flavor of movement. H returned home and perfomred yet again and the sifu told him to leave for another three years. He left and trained for three more years but his form no longer looked like his sifu's. this disheartened him but he returned to his teacher. He performed for his Sifu and he felt that he was horrible because he no longer moved like his sifu. The teacher smiled and said good you training is now complete.

Well if you read this and understand the moral I am proud if not here is the moral. Your Sifu only provides the key essentials to training and it is up to you to make it your own. Gung fu is not about mimicry! Take what you learn and make it your own and only then shall the gem of gung fu be your own.

The only time you should worry about learning from someone is when what they are teaching you are forms and forms alone. That is not Martial arts. Do not dilude yourself into thinking I will get the techniques sooner or later when my understanding is present. The proper use of techniques are important in learning the art and actual usage is paramount. The forms are nothing more than linked movements of the system and once you attain the core information you can create your own.

It matters not if a Sifu is a evil man, good man, arrogant, has ten forms or 100. All that matters is if he/she knows how to apply his skill and has the ability to convey their skills so that others can learn them.

I rather learn from a Sifu who can fight and has a evil heart than a Sifu who is of good heart and no skill. A teacher who has never been in a fight or touched hands with anyone has no real experience and knows nothing but theory,tech and concept. If someone has never thrown a punch and struck a moving target how can they teach someone how it is done. They would have to understand the dynamic of timing, energy distribution and all those good things. If you are skilled and know these things then it is possible to learn from someone who is all theory and concept
but if you dont all you are learning is a complicated dance.

Like I always say you can learn all the fighting skills you want but if you cant take a strike then what good is it?

all things go hand in hand but amount of forms should not be an issue to legitmacy.

Cheers
Victor

lol sorry for all the grammar errors I was taught my writing skills from a evil teacher that did not desire to teach me the moral importance of grammar checking and spelling.
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[B.Tunks]

Victor,

some good and true points.

I think the matter of good vs evil teachers is very complex, but in a way you are right.
You will inherit his good fighting skills (if you yourself are a good student, which is one thing you have not addressed), but you will also inherit his a.sshole attitude if you follow him closely.

If that doesn't matter to you in your quest to achieve good fighting ability then thats o.k. Personally I prefer a good teacher with high level skill, teaching ability and a good heart.

I cant stand to be around arrogant idiots and would prefer to gain my instruction from a better man with lesser skills.
I have come across this dilemma many times in my martial career and have always rejected the teachings of the talented but corrupted man (not out of a sense of self righteousness but because to truly learn from someone you must get very close to them and I prefer not to mix evil with violence).

B.T

[mantis7]

Mr. Trunks

You are so corrected in your ideaology. I would like to add to some of the ideas you addressed

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(if you yourself are a good student, which is one thing you have not addressed), but you will also inherit his a.sshole attitude if you follow him closely.
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this so true if you are a young practioner but if you are a man of upstanding qualities it does not matter. A man should stand on his own and not inherit or mimic the qualities of others. Morality should be a obvious concept but ,just like what I posted, to some it needs to be pointed out. I follow a teacher, now a days, to learn in skill but as far as morals go I follow my own path instead of following someone else concepts.


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I cant stand to be around arrogant idiots and would prefer to gain my instruction from a better man with lesser skills.
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This may be true but would this man be less in knowledge as well? I have learned that everyone devlops at the own speed when it comes to attitude and morals . The man of yesterday is not the same man of today. Arrogance is derived from actual skill and abilities or from self deluded self conception. You have to tolerate all kinds of mentalities in this world in order to acheive ones goals. I perfer to deal with a arrogant real teacher than a greedy manipulator. Sometimes the truth comes across as arrogance lol most people perfer a soft lie to the hard truth!!!1

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truly learn from someone you must get very close to them and I prefer not to mix evil with violence
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Close to them is a true fact but evil has to be defined. Is the instructor brash and arrogant due to his skill and his love of combat or is he evil because he goes out and looks for trouble. If a teacher loves to fight or is willing to accept any challenege is this evil? I would say NO to this. If the teacher goes out and beats the helpless in order to gain fame then I would say yes that is evil. If he challenges other schools because someone is claiming to be Blah blah. Then I say no because if we actually called all of these frauds claims the martial arts world wouldnt be full of so many paper tigers.

Great respone Mr. Trunks
Me and you are on the same page albeit I am on the darker more cynnical side.

Cheers
Victor

[B.Tunks]

Mantis 7-

I agree with all of your further points. The only thing I can add is that occasionally one has to put his entire faith or trust into a man or woman to really get or understand something of value (such as real gongfu) in return. This can lead to a kind of vulnerability that can be taken adavantage of if one doesnt have suitable independance and maturity. As you pointed out, the young and inexperienced are more at risk than the wise and seasoned.
Like someone, somewhere once said on the subject of suckers; 'there's one born every minute'
Unfortunately I think this has become the motto of many martial arts 'masters'.

b.t

[Frogman]

I have to agree with some of what you say. As for good teacher evil teacher, I personally would not want to associate with any one who would fit the evil description. Good instruction is more then monkey see monkey do. Of course, it is all in what the student wants. I enjoy experimenting and even if I don’t make it to class as often I work on my technique, both forms and mixing things up. I know that some here would say that it is not a good idea to do this as the forms should be done the way you were shown. I don’t totally disagree with this I just think it the technique not the form that must hold it’s integrity. It has taken a long time for me to feel like a martial artist as I am just now beginning to feel my own interpretation of the techniques I have learned. There is no doubt that if you do not experiment with your technique you will just be the monkey do. The artist must come from with in. As the paint instructor can teach you the brush strokes it you who must apply the paint.

RibHit
fm
:cool:

[BeiTangLang]

Interesting topic.
I'd have to say that, for me, I don't care what a person is/does outside the kwoon as long as they are a good teacher inside the kwoon.

[German Bai Lung]

Originally posted by B.Tunks

The only thing I can add is that occasionally one has to put his entire faith or trust into a man or woman to really get or understand something of value (such as real gongfu) in return. This can lead to a kind of vulnerability that can be taken adavantage of if one doesnt have suitable independance and maturity. As you pointed out, the young and inexperienced are more at risk than the wise and seasoned.
b.t

Thats a good point! In my opinion its quite more dangerous to get in dependence from a selfish, evil Master than to learn from a lesser skilled Master with a true behavior!

I think most "evil" master just exactly want to create a dependence to the students and will use this for own advantage!

I think a honorable Master with an open mind and heard will work "For" his students, even when his skills are not good enough. He will search for a way to lead his student to the right way of becoming a good martial artist.

[mantis7]

All good points, I now see what archtype of evil everyone is seeing. Most of the so called evil I have received from others are teachers who like to fight and promote fighting usage oanly. I now see that you are also refering to the manipulator, prolonger and trickster.

all very good

hehe but like I said I am a bit more cynical in nature. you must understand that all Sifus are human beings. This will remind you that they have their short comings via personality and nature.you can put total faith in a person but be ever vigilant in keeping an eye for things that may go wrong. Do not look for the faults actively so to speak but be aware. When and if they do occur keep in mind that they are human beings and they have a life out there and are not deified gods. All people have to be held acountable in life but forgiveness is divine. So take it one step at a time gung fu is easier to attain than friendship. Friendship or familiar love should be developed longer and with more work than gung fu lol

Cheers
Victor

[Frogman]

What are we talking about here good vs. evil or personal interpretation of ones technique? Yes you will find the good the bad and the ugly in all people but I would not put so much in to what the next man is doing. If you are comfortable with your surroundings then all is good, if not then you need to look at yourself.

RibHit
fm
:D

[mantis7]

Well Frogman we are discussing a little of both lol but you are correct in saying that its about your surroundings and comfort zone. A good vs evil discussion may be nice as well. Also making Gung fu your own is also a nice topic

[Young Mantis]

Well, here's my take on this. If we are talking about a serious learning or training experience/relationship, like Sifu-todai relationship, then it would matter to me who the person is. I can respect a person for having great knowledge of a system. This shows their dedication to their style. I can respect him even more if he is able to fight with that style. This shows not only knowledge, but also true understanding of the style and the ability to apply it.

But if I question the person's character or morals, then it would be very difficult for me to address that person as sifu. For me, the title "sifu" still carries a lot of weight with it. I would not be able to call somebody my sifu if I don't respect him as a person. Perhaps this is an old fashioned way of thinking but I still believe that a student should respect his sifu and not just for his fighting ability.

As for making gung fu your own, I not only think that it is necessary but inevitable. In the matter of playing forms, personal flavor or styling, phrasing of techniques, timing, tempo - all these things are personal attributes given to the forms. We say this is spirit. In the beginning everyone looks the same, the way they are taught by the sifu. It will be monotonous and lack spirit. But as the student digests the form, understands the applications, then when he plays the form with that in mind, it will start to look different because now there is intent behind the movements. But no matter what personal inflections one puts into his forms, he should still look like his style, his lineage. It is very clear to see when mantis players play their forms, where their lineage is from; as in PRC or HK. I would say for some people, they can even tell which specific lineage or further, who the sifu is that taught that particular practitioner. That doesn't mean that the student needs to mimic exactly the sifu. But just as the student will impart his own styling into the form, the student will still reflect the teachings of his lineage and carry that flavor.

In the matter of fighting, this too will inevitably become personal. Each person will have different preferences for fighting: hand strikes or kicks, palm or fist, long or close range. The sifu should teach everything in the system and the student should find out what works best for him. Spending time training sahn sao and sparring will allow the student to know what his comfort zone is for fighting. Which techniques work best for him given a particular scenario or opponent.

YM

[Frogman]

I was a little fired up about some other things yesterday and well…
Good vs. Evil
I’m sure that there are some who get roped into becoming dependent on their instructor, and can be taken advantage of. You should look up to and respect your Sifu, and it is easy to be misguided when your trying to find yourself. (One reason for training). In fact I went several year training in a style that was not a system but had no way of knowing. I believed it was the greatest thing since sliced bread because my instructor told me so. I have trained in a few other styles since and can see the truth. They worked out hard did a ton of self defense but the forms were very broken and a lot of the techniques did not fit together. The worst is how these guys (the instructors) would pressure the students into doing seminars and workshop. Just draining them and selling crap. I personally did get a lot out of it but had to move on, only find out latter that was the best thing. If you are going to call someone evil these guys would fit the bill. I don’t think that if someone likes the fight and promote fighting is evil, and violent does not equal evil either. Kicking someone in the balls may seem evil but it’s just good combat.
:D
Flavor
What YM said. Be your self practice hard and it will come, if you try to be to much like someone else your forcing the techniques and it will be difficult to make your moves natural. Besides I have a long way to go before I can do my techniques like my Sifu.

Peace
:cool:
RibHit
fm

[Vash]

I want to be the most evil of Senseis . . .

I don't want to use Japanese culture in my training!

Argh! beware the dog man!