are there really people out there that do not sprawl at all ... ever? [Archive]

GunnedDownAtrocity

12-08-2003, 11:29 PM

i was reading csn's thread about stance training and takedowns and was wondering if anyone has ever been at a point in their training where they didn't sprawl at all? i'm not saying csn doesnt ... he actually said that he does ... this is a side issue and i'm wondering if these people really exist.

i mean it just always seemed like the right thing to do to me. it's not rocket sience and it just kind of falls into place. i know almost zero grappling, and i'm sure that im missing some of the finer points of a good sprawl, but does anyone really just stand there and take it over and over again without learning to just kinda fall forward on top of the guy and throw your legs back?

don't get me wrong, good footwork is another option and i think good root can definitely be a big help if the guy doesnt have his take down just right, but there's always going to be a time when you're about to be tipped back. there's even stuff like kidneys and ribs for pure strikers back there from a sprawl. i also understand that i'm probably not going to sprawl against a guy who is really good at takedowns, but i'm at least going to try and maybe that'll be the time he ****s up.

backbreaker

12-09-2003, 12:12 AM

Reversing a takedown might be possible . Ths could involve sweeps and trips with the legs , or throws using the hips or even striking with the hips and maype leaning into the opponent with the hips to control him. You would need to be able to open and close the hip joints with alot of peng energy. I think you would want to ues the opponents force against him either directly into you , or leading his direction of force away. Turning the waist will be important too. Chin na locks might be able to be used in a takedown reverse but I don't know about any of this for sure

Unmatchable

12-09-2003, 01:28 AM

Read Tadzio's (who also posts on this site) article on anti grappling, he advocates charging head on and destroying takedowns with knees and strikes in clinch.

http://www.xingyiquan.org/articles/anti-grappling1.html

GunnedDownAtrocity

12-09-2003, 01:40 AM

ok i have had a couple beers in me at this point, but i wanted to make it clear that i understand there are other options. there's nothing wrong with these other options, it's just that sometimes the sprawl is the best option. some times taking an angular step back and attacking is the best option. it just depends and it seems like the sprawl can be used if one of your other options are about to fail.

again ... im not pointing fault at what you guys are suggesting, just saying that i think everyone should know how to sprawl. if you can't do it half assed naturally then have someone show you. it's simple and effective.

Unmatchable

12-09-2003, 01:50 AM

On the street I wouldn't expect a wrestling style takedown attempt. Unless of course the guy wants to **** his knees up.

GunnedDownAtrocity

12-09-2003, 02:00 AM

i wouldnt expect anything on the street.

Unmatchable

12-09-2003, 02:25 AM

I think you more likely on the street will get a guy grabbing you by the waiste or somewhere above legs because the fear of breaking your knees on cement is too great. So the best defense would be put him in a guillitone or knee (or strike with seven stars) him.

GunnedDownAtrocity

12-09-2003, 02:45 AM

aint nothin wrong with no guillotine brotha. but that aint what i be preachin.

and again, ill say that i wouldnt expect anything on the street. is your statement accurate? yeah, i'd say it most likely is. but then again there are more people learnin wrasslin cause of the ultmate fitein champships so anything could happen.

i'm just saying the sprawl is like an uppercut. it's not for everyone, but everyone should know how to do it. at least a little bit.

yenhoi

12-09-2003, 06:35 AM

You can do takedowns perfectly fine on concrete or blacktop. The person being taken down will fare much worse then the taker downer, and he wont feel his bruised knees until after he has pounded your face.

:eek:

truewrestler

12-09-2003, 06:35 AM

If you don't want to go to the ground the sprawl is an essential tool for takedown defense. You may get good enough at takedown defense that a full sprawl is a last line of defense but you are still sprawlling at some point. Show me a person who has never sprawled and I'll show you someone who doesn't have good training partners for takedowns.

Read Tadzio's (who also posts on this site) article on anti grappling, he advocates charging head on and destroying takedowns with knees and strikes in clinch. That's all well and good for a well timed immediate counter which doesn't work that often but not a replacement for takedown defense. He11, if someone is skilled at takedowns... there will be no "clinch". I looked briefly at the article (i'll try to read it tonight) and just from looking at the pictures and skimming, he has very limited sense of takedowns.

"Anti-grappling" is so mid 90's and still dumb

truewrestler

12-09-2003, 06:48 AM

I'm going to try and find videos online teaching takedown defense

http://www.groundfighter.com/uploads/videos/UltimateTakedownsVol5.ram

http://www.groundfighter.com/uploads/videos/UltimateTakedownsVol6.ram

MasterKiller

12-09-2003, 07:40 AM

Great videos!

GunnedDownAtrocity

12-09-2003, 08:15 AM

he wont feel his bruised knees until after he has pounded your face.

i agree completely with your post and the fact that your knees aren't going to break, but for the sake of argument there probably are a lot of people who wouldnt bother.

that said i don't see why anyone would just ignore the sprawl.

SanSoo Student

12-09-2003, 08:37 AM

You shouldn't be afraid of you knees breaking, but focus on surviving the fight. What would happen to your face if they decided to take you down first, thats what you should be afraid of.

yenhoi

12-09-2003, 09:18 AM

destroying takedowns with knees and strikes in clinch.

You dont counter takedowns with these weapons, you use them after you have countered, ala sprawl, crossface, repulse monkey, etc.

:confused:

Chang Style Novice

12-09-2003, 09:26 AM

To answer the question in the thread title, I suppose there might be some guys who pull guard all the time and prefer that spot to any other who don't bother with spraawling. Maybe.

Suntzu

12-09-2003, 10:01 AM

aint nothin wrong with no guillotine brotha. but that aint what i be preachin. for some reason i had a mental picture of Macho Man Randy Savage reading this line........... and to stay on topic..... i use the sprawl in my personal defense...... WOOOOO YAH!!!!

FatherDog

12-09-2003, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by Unmatchable
On the street I wouldn't expect a wrestling style takedown attempt. Unless of course the guy wants to **** his knees up.

A) Many will not worry about ****ing their knees up, any more than strikers worry about ****ing their hands up, in a street confrontation.

B) A wrestling-style double or single leg can be performed without going to a knee, and they often are in competition.

Musicalkatachmp

12-09-2003, 10:10 AM

I think that sprawling is very important and I would like to practice it more in the future...

I saw an ultratraditional kung fu guy on another forum say sprawling is a bad idea...he didn't bother to explain why...I think its because he didn't consider it an old traditional internal temple chinese technique...

Another thing I know that in kuoshu, which is all standing up fighting, if you sprawl you have to be careful because if your knee touches the ground the other guy gets points (I think). This guy did that to me and I felt like I was skrewed because he sprawled really well and got me in a choke but his knee touched the ground so I still got a point or two.

scotty1

12-09-2003, 10:57 AM

"B) A wrestling-style double or single leg can be performed without going to a knee, and they often are in competition."

Exactly - 'Single hand...' and 'double hand takes leg' they're called in our style (of taiji).

Man, I love hitting someone with one of those, and my knees don't go anywhere near hitting the ground, the idea being for you to remain standing.

backbreaker

12-09-2003, 01:37 PM

I've done a couple of classes with a xinyi luihe quan master and I would say that the back of the knee joint on him is way stronger and more solid than other fighters and his root truly was sunk into the ground solidly , so pushing forward on him is like pushing a wall and you'll slide your own feet from underneath you. In most case the back of the knee is very effective to attack obviously

Unmatchable

12-09-2003, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by GunnedDownAtrocity

i agree completely with your post and the fact that your knees aren't going to break, but for the sake of argument there probably are a lot of people who wouldnt bother.

that said i don't see why anyone would just ignore the sprawl.

Although the knees might not break the psychological barrier between risking hurting yourself is usually too great for most people to even attempt it, or at least they would do it more cautiotly and slower and higher (in my opinion).

Lets just put it this way, I wouldn't attempt it. Even in church kneeling on my knees hurts bad enough.

yenhoi

12-09-2003, 03:24 PM

Although the knees might not break the psychological barrier between risking hurting yourself is usually too great for most people to even attempt it, or at least they would do it more cautiotly and slower and higher (in my opinion).

I call bullsh1t.

People are willing to take untold amounts of damage just to 'get you.'

Silly-talk.

:eek:

Unmatchable

12-09-2003, 03:25 PM

well maybe I am just a wussy than that would freeze in a real street confrontation in the first place anyway. Ofcourse that is unless I was drunk :)

Or if my friend was with me:

http://www.eazy-e.net/upload/uploads/kulpa.jpg
http://www.eazy-e.net/upload/uploads/kulpa3.jpg

GunnedDownAtrocity

12-09-2003, 03:45 PM

I saw an ultratraditional kung fu guy on another forum say sprawling is a bad idea...he didn't bother to explain why...I think its because he didn't consider it an old traditional internal temple chinese technique...

i'd ask him if going with the flow is also untraditional. he wants you to fall so you do. on top of him.

Chang Style Novice

12-09-2003, 03:51 PM

Don't be silly, GDA - it's getting knocked down flat on your back that's traditional internal chinese temple technique!

:rolleyes:

Where do people come up with this stuff?

GunnedDownAtrocity

12-09-2003, 03:54 PM

.... and what are some of the finer points of a good sprawl. i just kinda lean over , throw my legs back, and dip my hips to try and get my weight lower and sink into him.

from here ill either try a choke or hit something, but it always ends up on the ground shortly afterward. against someone who knows as much grappling as i do i usually do pretty good from here, but a real grappler owns me.

Unmatchable

12-09-2003, 03:59 PM

Why don't you just knee him in the face or elbow him, or even put him in a guillitone after the sprawl?

Chang Style Novice

12-09-2003, 04:03 PM

Well, elbows are tough to throw when both arms are tied up, and knees are way away from the targets. Plus, throwing knees means losing better than half your stability when you lift one foot. A good sprawl (as I understand it) means feet apart.

rubthebuddha

12-09-2003, 04:09 PM

because a lot of good grapplers train against those knees and elbows and know how to minimize them as a threat. they can be great weapons, but unless you actually connect with one of them and do it with decent timing, you're going to be on your hinder. i don't even like using knees in this case, because if a good grappler gets your upraised leg, you better be wearing your t-shirt that says "toast" on it. now, once the person has been softened up a bit, it's all about the knees.

Unmatchable

12-09-2003, 04:19 PM

Actually Vanderlei SIlva used knees to head to finish alot of fights in pride. But alot of grappler don't work even standup grappling much less striking.

Chang Style Novice

12-09-2003, 04:31 PM

No doubt knees are formidable weapons. They're just not always the right tool for the job. If you're trying to stay up and your opponent is in a position to take you down, keep your feet away from him.

rubthebuddha

12-09-2003, 04:35 PM

Actually Vanderlei SIlva used knees to head to finish alot of fights in pride. But alot of grappler don't work even standup grappling much less striking. indeed. coupla problems:

1. he's vanderlei silva. he can do whatever the funk he wants. :D

2. he's already softened the person up a bit. using knees to the noggin to finish someone is quite often a simple, easy and nasty way to getting your hand raised at the end of a match.

3. he's still vanderlei silva. :p

Unmatchable

12-09-2003, 04:38 PM

All it takes is practise. Walter 'SLeeper' Michalowski I think knees harder than Vanderlei SIlva.

Chang Style Novice

12-09-2003, 05:09 PM

Walter Michelowski's knees are no match for Cotton Hill's headbutt to the groin.

Meat Shake

12-09-2003, 05:15 PM

Ill choke you out.

truewrestler

12-09-2003, 05:17 PM

Vanderlei Silva

1. Has great takedown defense because he cross trains in wrestling

2. Just got his black belt in BJJ

Unmatchable

12-09-2003, 05:40 PM

and your point is?

rubthebuddha

12-09-2003, 05:58 PM

a black in bjj means you gots skills. ask merryprankster -- he's NAGA champion (again), and he's "just" a purple (last time i checked).

odd -- this has probably been touched on before, but bjj seems to have been fortunate to escape lots of the problems with black belts being awarded after six months at ass-cheap mcdojos. at least i haven't heard of any such bjj mcdojos. i'd call this a good thing, and my guess as to why is the competition circuit and testing your goodness against other similarly colored belts. bjjers -- am i at least near the truth on this one? :confused:

Chang Style Novice

12-09-2003, 06:05 PM

What I've read - mostly from MP - is that belts in BJJ are awarded based on your performance in class rolling. A white belt is awarded blue when he can hold his own on the mat with the blues, and blue is awarded purple when he can hold his own on the mat with the purples, and so on. Brilliantly practical and elegant if you ask me, and I think all arts that presume to call themselves martial should follow suit. I also think demotion should work the same way for people who get out of shape and practice. Those who retire after earning a particular belt could be allowed to be known as "black belt emeritus" or something similar, with exceptions for those who have made extraordinary contributions to the art (I don't think Helio Gracie's BB should be taken away just because he's an old man now and there are likely plenty of big athletic browns who could whoop him.)

As for MP's NAGA championship, I'm not certain, but I think there may be different categories of experience each with their own title, like weight classes. Without meaning to disrespect his skill in the least, I seriously doubt he's the very best grappler in his weight class in North America.

Unmatchable

12-09-2003, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by rubthebuddha
a black in bjj means you gots skills. ask merryprankster -- he's NAGA champion (again), and he's "just" a purple (last time i checked).

odd -- this has probably been touched on before, but bjj seems to have been fortunate to escape lots of the problems with black belts being awarded after six months at ass-cheap mcdojos. at least i haven't heard of any such bjj mcdojos. i'd call this a good thing, and my guess as to why is the competition circuit and testing your goodness against other similarly colored belts. bjjers -- am i at least near the truth on this one? :confused:

Actually I heard there was a scandal recently of bjj black belts being sold on ebay.

Chang Style Novice

12-09-2003, 06:27 PM

A google search of "black belt ebay scandal" doesn't seem to turn up anything relevant.

truewrestler

12-09-2003, 06:30 PM

I believe he won the expert no-gi (submission wrestling rules) and although that doesn't mean he is the best grappler it means he is definitely up there in no-gi ...don't believe he place in Gi (BJJ rules). They grouped purple, brown and black together and I believe the black belt swept the Expert Gi division.

Black Belt in most arts means you are proficient -- while in BJJ Purple generally means you are proficient and Black means you are an expert.

Unmatchable

12-09-2003, 06:33 PM

truewrestler

12-09-2003, 06:34 PM

It doesn't really matter... there are fake Harvard diploma's out there too

Chang Style Novice

12-09-2003, 06:37 PM

Thanks for the clarification, TW. The main reason I expressed my doubts about MP's supremacy was the fact that he is a purple rather than a black, coupled with my impressions of BJJ's promotion requirements as mentioned in the same post. In other words, I figured there'd have to be a bjj black about his size, and that guy would be by definition more skilled.

To repeat - I never intended to impugn MP's skill whatsoever. Because he scares me.:D

truewrestler

12-09-2003, 06:38 PM

The people on that forum were saying bjj is becoming mcdojoised. And the lay and pray tactics are killing the sport (or martial art). LOL, whatever you say man... I've been on the UnderGround Forum since 98 and that is not the concensus. People don't like scammers selling belts but it really just doesn't matter much. As long as bjj is centered around a combat sport it will never be "mcdojoed" like karate, kungfu, etc.

Unmatchable

12-09-2003, 06:45 PM

not all bjj people participate in combat sports. There is alot more to martial arts than fighting. Try meditation for awhile, you sound like you have alot of testostorone.

truewrestler

12-09-2003, 06:45 PM

To repeat - I never intended to impugn MP's skill whatsoever. Because he scares me. didn't think you were, just wanted to clarify that he was in fact the NAGA North American champ in the Expert NO-GI division. Taking off the gi includes the belt :p and changes the game... some bjjers only compete in gi... although there are a small number of bjj schools that focus on no-gi

GunnedDownAtrocity

12-09-2003, 09:05 PM

ok so what are the fine points of a good sprawl again?

Chang Style Novice

12-09-2003, 09:41 PM

Keeping in mind that I'm no wrestler, and don't practice with skilled wrestlers:

#1 Feet back and apart

#2 Hips down

#3 Probably something else as well

GunnedDownAtrocity

12-10-2003, 01:15 AM

i got the lean forward, dip your hips, and throw your feet back part, but i just figured there might be more to it.

truewrestler

12-10-2003, 07:21 AM

Well the thing to remember is that a full sprawl is not the first line of takedown defense.

1. Stance - Lower your center of gravity

2. Hands and Forearms - Use your hands and forearms against the shooter's head and shoulders to stuff or slow their forward movement.

3. Sprawl ... if they are reaching for a leg you may only have move that leg back to squard your hips. If they are under you... you will need to drop your hips towards the floor in a full sprawl...if they are attacking a single leg that hip will have more weight on it. Center your body on their upper back and push down on their head. Then you back off of them if you don't want to go to the ground, or circle behind to try to get their back

4. Wh!zzer/Crossface... If they get a hold of your leg and a good sprawl doesn't break their grip you need more help to break their grip. You do this by sprawlling and using different holds on their arms and head for leverage.

I wish I could find some real instruction for your guys.

Here are the videos from before that might help... in the first one you can see the sprawl at the end... in the second you can see the Wh!zzer hold he has on the near arm once his own leg has been secured by his opponent

http://www.groundfighter.com/uploads/videos/UltimateTakedownsVol5.ram

http://www.groundfighter.com/uploads/videos/UltimateTakedownsVol6.ram

ShaolinTiger00

12-10-2003, 08:05 AM

I seriously doubt he's the very best grappler in his weight class in North America.

He's without a doubt in the top 5% and that includes BOTH gi and no gi. He regularly taps out other purple belts and brown belts in competiton. He is competing in the EXPERT division. He's not the big fish in the little pond. He's in the shark tank.

James is a total athlete. wind him up and let him go. judo, bjj, full-contact tiddly winks, He's going to win. He trains his ass off with the best competition around and proves his skills regularly. He will be a Pan Am champion this year.

truewrestler

12-10-2003, 08:48 AM

ST00 has oil checked the correct to the second ...maybe even third knuckle

...sorry if I implied anything to the contrary about James's skill :)

Water Dragon

12-10-2003, 08:54 AM

quick factoid. Walt Michalowski is from the same small town in NW Indiana that I come from. I remember when he was gonna be a rock star. Even had the long bleached hair. Looked like he was from Poison. :D

FatherDog

12-10-2003, 08:57 AM

1. Vanderlei Silva only knees off a sprawl when he's completely sprawled out AND has underhooks in on the guy, thus preventing him from doing an effective reshot. If you just sprawl and start kneeing, you may knock the guy out, but it's more likely you'll get dumped.

2. Vanderlei Silva is a much better fighter than anyone else on this board. Just because he can do something doesn't mean you can, or that it's a good idea for you to try.

3. MP competed in the Expert division, which is the highest level in NAGA's no-gi competition. He may not be the best no-gi grappler in North America, but he was the best one in his weight class competing that day... and that particular NAGA was the largest in history.

4. truewrestler has pulled double underhooks and spiked the correct like a football, re: the finer points of sprawling.

5. Unmatchable is a tool.

MasterKiller

12-10-2003, 08:58 AM

ShaolinTiger00

12-10-2003, 09:01 AM

ST00 has oil checked the correct to the second ...maybe even third knuckle

The trick is to rub your hands in vasoline prior to grappling.

Little known fact. The Correct screamed out the first time this happened, but as I have sodomized it so many times, it has realized that resistence is futile and I'm usually embraced and given oral service prior to..

:eek:

scotty1

12-10-2003, 10:53 AM

OMFG:) One of the best yet.

Ralphie

12-10-2003, 11:10 AM

It was awhile back I read something about it on the mma.tv forum. Maybe it was some other online auction site if not ebay. The people on that forum were saying bjj is becoming mcdojoised. And the lay and pray tactics are killing the sport (or martial art).

I don't think that's true. The only kind of McDojo BJJ stuff is being done at Karate and TKD studios where they teach it on a real superficial level in order to say they teach ground fighting. What are "lay and pray tactics"?

norther practitioner

12-10-2003, 11:17 AM

tiddly winks

I thought Meat Shake was the tiddly winks champ...

truewrestler

12-10-2003, 11:20 AM

What are "lay and pray tactics"? That is what's done by some wrestlers (or any fighter who can dominate position) when they get the top position in a fight and just do enough to win by judge's decision.

That term has little if anything to do with BJJ and more to do with strategies by some MMA fighters who are either playing it safe for the decision or don't have the tools to finish the fight but can dominate position.

SevenStar

12-10-2003, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by Ralphie

I don't think that's true. The only kind of McDojo BJJ stuff is being done at Karate and TKD studios where they teach it on a real superficial level in order to say they teach ground fighting. What are "lay and pray tactics"?

agreed. you won't find mcbjj. what you will find is schools of other styles that are either watching tapes or attending seminars, then teaching grappling as they are perceiving it.

MasterKiller

12-10-2003, 11:30 AM

agreed. you won't find mcbjj. what you will find is schools of other styles that are either watching tapes or attending seminars, then teaching grappling as they are perceiving it. You might not find McBJJ as such, but I bet you can find plenty of McMMA right now, which would incorporate McBJJ training into it's McProgram. But, that's pretty much what you said, anyway. MC-ness isn't a quality pecuilar to TMA schools.

Chang Style Novice

12-10-2003, 03:07 PM

Okay, with my new education on the precise level of MP's badassery (I knew already he was badass, just not precisely how much so) - I have what may be a stupid question.

If he's regularly tapping out blacks and browns in competition, why is he only ranked purple? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm simply curious.

ShaolinTiger00

12-10-2003, 03:46 PM

tapping out blacks and browns in competition

Actually I said Purple & Browns..

Honestly? because his school has such a high standard of student that they promote. Lloyd will make sure you're dominating just about every competitor around in your rank before he'll promote you.

This keeps the standards of bjj very high.

Judo is similar. In the usjf - to progress as a competitor you must have a certain amount of points to get promoted.per each rank and the # of points get higher and higher. the only way to get points is to win competitions. once you're promoted to the next rank. your total points start at 0 again.

You'll average about 57 Wins in judo tournaments before you can get promoted to black belt. - the good competitor will do it in roughly 3 years, again rough average = 20 Victories(not matches) a year. that's about 5-6/year tournaments assuming you defeat everyone in your weight class! double that if you're medicore..

This is why when you meet a bjj student of high rank or a judo bb from an area known for competitive judo, you know they have the skills to kick some ass.

35 points to go...

Chang Style Novice

12-10-2003, 03:57 PM

Thanks for the clarification, ST.

Merryprankster

12-10-2003, 09:11 PM

Gosh guys, thanks for the love. I appreciate it.

My resume includes close loses to some very good people.

I'm getting my head straight for competition in 2004. It's a tight competitive world out there and the mental game is the difference between champion and first loser.

Watch for my teammate Mike Fowler. He just beat Ralek Gracie in CA this past weekend. :D