The Ultimate Footwork Thread

[SevenStar]

For you, CSN. :D

[Chang Style Novice]

Hey, thanks 7*! So, where do we start? I only figured it was a big enough subject that it could be more than just a sidebar to ultimate grappling.

I'll bring up one of the big questions that still puzzles me, although I've mentioned it several times before around here.

Kicking seems to me to be inherently risky from a footwork angle. I'm no kicker myself, but anytime you bring a foot high off the ground, you're stability is halved at least from a solid two-footed stance. Clearly, range has a lot to do with when it's appropriate to lift your feet that high - if you're in the clinch, knees are the tool to use, but if your opponent is too far away to punch, he's probably also too far away to get a good shoot happening, so a kick could be a good choice.

So, how do you kickers use footwork to stay in a preferred range? Obviously constantly backing off from an advancing opponent won't work, so lateral movement has got to be a big deal. But how do you achieve that in a way that sets up your kicking leg to do its job?

[Indestructible]

Cross-steps are an excellent way to cover distance and set up kicks at the same time. A side thrust kick is one of the most natural motions out of a cross-step but there are many others.

[Chang Style Novice]

So we're on the same page, wouldja mind describing a cross-step?

[SevenStar]

the most common kick I throw is the roundhouse (actually, could be a tie with the teep). I kick with the shin though, and the leg keeps much of its bend, so I don't need alot of space. Ideally, I want to kick while you are retreating, recovering, etc. so I can set the roundhouse up with punches. footwork comes into play more with the execution of the kick in some cases, as there's a shuffle stepping roundhouse that allows you to bring your front leg back some so that you can execute it as a rear leg roundhouse.

[Indestructible]

A cross-step is when you take a step that ends with your legs crossed knee-to-knee, one behind the other. You can also pivot/rotate out of cross-steps into horse or bow stances to deliver punches and strikes.

Cross-stepping foward from a horse stance, rear leg behind front leg is an excellent way to set up the side thrust. Once rear leg steps behind front leg, front leg fires the side thrust.

[Water Dragon]

cross stepping is a sweeper's Paradise.

[Indestructible]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
cross stepping is a sweeper's Paradise.

Are you saying that a sweeper uses cross-steps or sweeps cross-steppers?

[Water Dragon]

If you see someone using a cross step, it's a perfect opportunity for a sweep.

[Chang Style Novice]

If he means what I think he means, cross-stepping will land you on your ass if you try it in range of a sweep.

And I agree. Putting your left foot on the right and your right foot on the left compromises stability much more than is safe.

[Indestructible]

Um, I didn't explain it very well. Stepping should be in a linear motion, your not actually crossing feet from one side to the other. So if you are in a horse you will cross-step rear leg in front of foward leg while maintaining your foward orintation.

Most of the time cross-steps are used to transition from one stance to the other, cover distance, or generate a turn.

I haven't been swept out of my cross step but thats not saying it can't be done. I like to spar real close which maybe neutralizes the sweep but opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.

[Shaolinlueb]

im a big fan of teh jeet kung do skip in. back foot replaces front and front goes forward. ou can cover a lot or a little amount of ground with that.

[Chang Style Novice]

Indestructible -
Okay, now what you're describing sounds more like what I'd call a "cover step."

[Water Dragon]

I see what you're doing now. I'm going to assume that if you are doing this, other people in your school are as well. Next time someone does this, reap the **** out of their back leg, not the front leg. If the back leg stepped behind, then you would reap out the front. Just slam the leg like you are kicking a football. Watch them drop.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
im a big fan of teh jeet kung do skip in. back foot replaces front and front goes forward. ou can cover a lot or a little amount of ground with that.

I like that one too. When the MT school still had the jun fan teacher, we learned that as "Z stepping". you gotta be careful, as this also will get you swept.

[Meat Shake]

I dont cross step... I more or less "kick" the front foot forward witht he back foot.

[CaptinPickAxe]

I'm learning splashing hands stepping. It consists of power generating/crotch blocking steps. All are well posistioned and produce a good amount of power.

[SevenStar]

care to explain it?

[Oso]

just wanted to add that you don't generally cross step/steal-a-step as the opening move against an opponent who's awareness of your movement isn't at least partially compromised. It is completely transitory and should be done fast.

Keeping at kicking range is 'play' just like any of the rest of the strategy of fighting...he does this, I'll do that or I'll do that to try and make him do this...

also, different things work at longer or shorter ranges. I generally don't worry about staying in a particular range but rather using what works in the range I'm at.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Sure,
Hands and Feet move as one. when you step you shift your front foot back a little first and the back forward till they are even. The front foot's toes point towards the middle of other foot. Heel turned out. You can feel the power generation in most of the punches. When executed correctly and practiced the steps seem like one movement.

[CaptinPickAxe]

The hand game is up there with boxing on complexity. I enjoy Splashing Hands. It has rapid-fire strikes and the punches can even be doubled as inercepting strikes. It teaches be the first to strike. Move when he gives the slightest hint of advancement. It doesn't rely on one strike but dozens of well placed, powerful strikes.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
Sure,
Hands and Feet move as one. when you step you shift your front foot back a little first and the back forward till they are even. The front foot's toes point towards the middle of other foot. Heel turned out. You can feel the power generation in most of the punches. When executed correctly and practiced the steps seem like one movement.

sounds eerily similar to the staggered horse from Southern Mantis

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by CaptinPickAxe
The hand game is up there with boxing on complexity. I enjoy Splashing Hands. It has rapid-fire strikes and the punches can even be doubled as inercepting strikes. It teaches be the first to strike. Move when he gives the slightest hint of advancement. It doesn't rely on one strike but dozens of well placed, powerful strikes.

This sounds even more like Southern Mantis.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Its fantastic with Shuai Chiao. It bridges the gaps effortlessly and sets you in the perfect position to toss someone on thier head.

[rogue]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
im a big fan of teh jeet kung do skip in. back foot replaces front and front goes forward. ou can cover a lot or a little amount of ground with that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I like that one too. When the MT school still had the jun fan teacher, we learned that as "Z stepping". you gotta be careful, as this also will get you swept. I've seen guys sweep themselves doing that move.:D

Footwork is also dependent upon terrain. Something that works in the ring will land you on your ass or help you on your way to a broken ankle if tried out in nacha. And things that are better for the field can be too slow in the ring.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by SevenStar


I like that one too. When the MT school still had the jun fan teacher, we learned that as "Z stepping". you gotta be careful, as this also will get you swept.

yeah it can. i dont like hot JKD teaches it with the back heel off the ground. i prefer to use the same technique but with both feet planted. if i dont do that ill keep more weigfht on the back foot.

[yenhoi]

Push Shuffle: because of your weighting and how your hips are turned (compared to your knees...) when you step your front foot forward a little, you fall, and naturally drag your trailing leg. You can move in almost any direction this way. Covers normal distance

Step and slide: Step forward with your front foot and then slide your rear foot. Any direction. Covers normal distance.

Slide and step: Slide rear foot forward then pop or step out your front leg. Covers short distance.

Pendulum Step: swing your rear leg forward and kickout or stepout your front leg. Covers long distance.

Lunge: Explode off rear foot landing on front foot. Covers even longer distance or short distance explosivly.

Switch step: Stepping or hopping into opposite lead, for loading and drawing ala thai kick or rear hand JabCross or CrossBackhand or something like that. Some styles call it elbow rolling.

Back Step: Step my right(left) foot infront of your right (left) foot and follow with hips/structure.

Triangle: meeting/deflecting the sum of your opponents force by stepping offline.

Pivoting on the balls and heels for various reasons.

Kicks dont affect your stability as much if you figure in momentum and dynamic structure (the relationship between you and your opponent.) Excellent kicks (like punches elbows knees throws etc) are setup.

Dont forget "sensitivity."

:eek:

[yenhoi]

How could I forget:

Running: Running at your opponent punching or something similar.

:eek:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Oso
just wanted to add that you don't generally cross step/steal-a-step as the opening move against an opponent who's awareness of your movement isn't at least partially compromised. It is completely transitory and should be done fast.

agreed. but in transition to a throw, you get swept. example, you step in for ippon seionage and you over step. your legs are now in line. another example, you are setting up for tai otoshi and cross your feet while attempting to change position, extend the leg you stepped with and complete the throw. either one of those scenarios have a high possibility of getting you flat on your back via tani otoshi.

Now, if you are kicking distance away or more, then yeah, you're cool.

[/B]

[Brad Souders]

i remember someone posting a big thread on footwork they used to help avoid being taken down but instead it turned into a who is tougher thread and the first post was deleted. If you ask nicely it may get reposted to see if their is anything u like :D

Brad Souders

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yenhoi
Push Shuffle: because of your weighting and how your hips are turned (compared to your knees...) when you step your front foot forward a little, you fall, and naturally drag your trailing leg. You can move in almost any direction this way. Covers normal distance

Step and slide: Step forward with your front foot and then slide your rear foot. Any direction. Covers normal distance.

Slide and step: Slide rear foot forward then pop or step out your front leg. Covers short distance.

Pendulum Step: swing your rear leg forward and kickout or stepout your front leg. Covers long distance.

Lunge: Explode off rear foot landing on front foot. Covers even longer distance or short distance explosivly.

Switch step: Stepping or hopping into opposite lead, for loading and drawing ala thai kick or rear hand JabCross or CrossBackhand or something like that. Some styles call it elbow rolling.

Back Step: Step my right(left) foot infront of your right (left) foot and follow with hips/structure.

Triangle: meeting/deflecting the sum of your opponents force by stepping offline.

Pivoting on the balls and heels for various reasons.

Kicks dont affect your stability as much if you figure in momentum and dynamic structure (the relationship between you and your opponent.) Excellent kicks (like punches elbows knees throws etc) are setup.

Dont forget "sensitivity."

:eek:

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Brad Souders
i remember someone posting a big thread on footwork they used to help avoid being taken down but instead it turned into a who is tougher thread and the first post was deleted. If you ask nicely it may get reposted to see if their is anything u like :D

Brad Souders

Please do that Brad. I never got a chance to read it the first time.

[Meat Shake]

Eh?
:confused:

[yenhoi]

http://www.cea.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ceaweb/kali-footwork.htm

Good info on how the triangle is worked.

:eek:

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by yenhoi
http://www.cea.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ceaweb/kali-footwork.htm

Good info on how the triangle is worked.

:eek:

Bookmarked!

Though I've always been kinda oogy on the whole "female triangle" naming convention. Call me a prude, but that's just wrong.

:)

[Oso]

Originally posted by Oso
just wanted to add that you don't generally cross step/steal-a-step as the opening move against an opponent who's awareness of your movement isn't at least partially compromised. It is completely transitory and should be done fast.

agreed. but in transition to a throw, you get swept. example, you step in for ippon seionage and you over step. your legs are now in line. another example, you are setting up for tai otoshi and cross your feet while attempting to change position, extend the leg you stepped with and complete the throw. either one of those scenarios have a high possibility of getting you flat on your back via tani otoshi.

Now, if you are kicking distance away or more, then yeah, you're cool.


:) had to go look up tani otoshi. neat.

agreed, but isn't what you are saying more an example someone making a mistake and the other person capitalizing upon it? or did I misunderstand?

or just that the other guy was better than me at that point in time.

[SevenStar]

It was an example of someone making a mistake, but that mistake was using what is for all practical purposes a cross stance while in close. it's not the opening move and it is fast and transitory, but with your legs crossed or over committed, you get caught.

so, I guess in addition to not being an opening maneuver and it being fast and transitory, timing/distancing should also be factored in.

[Oso]

:)

so, in other words, shiat happens even with the best theory backing up your intent.

[FatherDog]

Wrestling footwork guidelines -

never cross step. Always move the foot closest to the direction you're moving first, then follow with the other.

Short, choppy steps. Spend as little time with your feet off the ground as possible. Don't pick them up; raise them slightly and glide/shuffle.

Never retreat straight back; retreat on a diagonal if you retreat at all. If possible, just move laterally to avoid.

[Chang Style Novice]

I learned a couple techniques highly depended on footwork tonight.

#1 - A shoulder strike. From within grappling range, step with your rear foot to a spot between behind the leading foot of your opponent, as if to initiate a tripping attack. When the opponent steal steps to avoid the trip, bring your previously leading foot (now in the rear) up next to the leading foot, then step sideways with your lead foot between the feet of your opponent, drop your weight, and lean hard with your shoulder into whatever target presents itself - depending on your relative heights, this may be solar plexus, collarbone, or chin.

There's some handwork, too, but as long as deep hooks aren't in, I don't think it's very critical how you do it.

#2 - An evasive step to avoid and redirect the shoulder strike described in #1. As the attacker brings his rear foot up close to the front foot in preparation for the strike, step with your own rear foot past your leading foot, turn your new leading foot's toes toward the path of your opponent and twist your hips and chest to propel the attacker sideways and forward (for him.)

Frankly, this sequence seemed a little too dependent on specific responses that wouldn't neccesarily be what your opponent does, but when the shoulder rush connected, it sure slammed me pretty good, and when the evasive and redirecting manuever worked, I definitely wooshed right past and was left off-balance and with my back open. The shoulder rush is a trademark tech of bajiquan, I believe - any baji cats out there ready to comment on this?

[Chang Style Novice]

ttt for the weekday crowd

[fa_jing]

Yenhoi: what is a replacement on that webpage? Wing Chun triangular footwork is similar but a little different. The one that seems the most similar was the running triangle. Even still the angles are different. Cool stuff.

[SevenStar]

ttt

[yenhoi]

I think replacement means to replace one foot with the other. Changing leads while stepping off line.

If you are standing at the tip of a female triangle like this:

\ /
LR

You replace your left foot with your right foot and step with the left foot:

L\ /
R

Or so?

:confused:

[No_Know]

"So, how do you kickers use footwork to stay in a preferred range? Obviously constantly backing off from an advancing opponent won't work,..."

If you are staying in preferred range I wouild think you are hunting the opponent and not avoiding attacks as much as planning them. Concept. Not stay in preferred range. Stay outside preferred range. If they are agressive they will come to you, passing into your preferred range. Not attacking; no fight.

"...so lateral movement has got to be a big deal. But how do you achieve that in a way that sets up your kicking leg to do its job?"

Not necessarily, Timing can kill an attack. Let them attack first but launch a variable kick (on topic)-one that completes at full extension but has damage efficiency during extension. This can meet the attacker in motion yet allows for damage while target area is shifting location.

I only got as far as the second post of this thread before I posted this. There were two pages.

[yenhoi]

Mat burn sucks.

ttt

:o

[Chang Style Novice]

Thoughts on footwork for shoulder strikes? Anyone...anyone...Bueller?

[Chang Style Novice]

General Ma's attacking stances.

Start in clinch range, with each player holding the other at shoulder or bicep (this is pretty close to standard judo clinch of one hand at sleeve one at lapel.)

1

attacker uses rear foot to attempt sweep of defender's front foot.

defender withdraws foot to avoid sweep, catches attacker's foot from underneath with his own foot, raises it for offbalancing, and "turns the steering wheel" with his hands in the direction of the raised foot for a takedown.

2 -

attacker uses rear foot to attempt sweep of defender's front foot.

defender avoids sweep with "hacky sack" kick and swivels on planted foot in the direction of the kick as grip is released. Defender plant's kicking foot in rear position, re-establishes grip in opposite orientation, extends front foot toward opponent to block motion, and turns in the opposite direction from the "hacky sack" kick for a torquing trip/takedown.

3 -

attacker pivots on front foot to outside and "turns steering wheel" in same direction. When defender steps forward to catch himself (moving back foot to front position and next to attacker's front foot) attacker changes direction of "steering wheel" and sweeps defenders newly established front foot with his own back foot.

Somebody else must know more of these.

[Chang Style Novice]

ttt - just so we actually have some m.a. content up there.

[Meat Shake]

I usually shuffle step once Im close... Never cross step. (cept to Tstance...)

[apoweyn]

So, how do you kickers use footwork to stay in a preferred range? Obviously constantly backing off from an advancing opponent won't work, so lateral movement has got to be a big deal. But how do you achieve that in a way that sets up your kicking leg to do its job?

Avid kickers' first response tends to be to raise one leg in preparation. Or even if they don't literally chamber one leg and wait to throw it, their first line of thinking tends to be the kick.

I say "their", but it was my first line of thinking for a long time. I started in taekwondo.

Now, I think the first line of thought has to be the footwork. Get yourself into an advantageous position first. Then kick. So the kicking tends to come much later in my combinations now. Counterpunching, I can do with both my feet under me. So I can punch while I use footwork. Kicking (save for a couple of quick lowline kicks), I can't do while I move.

Take someone who's trying to take me down. Even if I responded with a picture perfect sidekick right in the nose and knocked the guy clean out, his forward momentum is still likely to result in me taking a trip to the mat. And the odds of me landing that knockout are slim to nil anyway.

If I responded with footwork (covered by punching) first, and then kicked when I had the opportunity, that's a better setup, IMHO.

I'm not a big believer in the idea that you can maintain your favoured range. Not if your favoured range is long range, anyway. In my experience, the fight will go to whatever the closest range allowed is. If it's a kicker vs. a boxer, the boxer is going to get in and start punching. If it's a boxer vs. a grappler, the boxer is going to get tied up and thrown. Etc.

So the biggest thing is that the kicker (for example) know enough about boxing and grappling that he has at least some options when they get in. A kicker will need to know enough about slipping, counterpunching, etc. to defend himself, counter, and push his opponent back into kicking range so he can deliver his best weapon. And, as we've seen countless times in the UFC, strikers can succeed IF they know enough about defending against takedowns to remain standing and push their opponent back into a striking range.

Does that make sense?


Stuart B.

[SevenStar]

beautiful post.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
General Ma's attacking stances.

Start in clinch range, with each player holding the other at shoulder or bicep (this is pretty close to standard judo clinch of one hand at sleeve one at lapel.)

1

attacker uses rear foot to attempt sweep of defender's front foot.

defender withdraws foot to avoid sweep, catches attacker's foot from underneath with his own foot, raises it for offbalancing, and "turns the steering wheel" with his hands in the direction of the raised foot for a takedown.



That sounds like SC's ghost stance.


Hey, perhaps an Ultimate Stance Thread?:D ;) The "Ultimate" thread series seems to have less jackings than any other MA thread I've seen on KFO, and they all go on for several pages.

[apoweyn]

Hey, perhaps an Ultimate Stance Thread? The "Ultimate" thread series seems to have less jackings than any other MA thread I've seen on KFO, and they all go on for several pages.

Amen. This is one of the most successful threads I've seen here.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by SevenStar
beautiful post.

Thanks mate. :)

[Chang Style Novice]

Hell yeah. I think a half-dozen or so "ultimate" threads dealing with basic issues is a great idea.

btw, it's my understanding that General Ma (of the 24 attacking stances/techs/whatever) was an martial "uncle" to Chang Tung Sheng - ie: the martial "brother" of his teacher, and that the 24 General Ma thingies are core curriculuum in pretty much any SC. Look up "General Ma Shuai Chiao" on google and you'll see the references.

So, since Ap has brought up the issue of strikers escaping from grappling range to return to their favored distance, anybody got footwork that will facilitate their goal?

[apoweyn]

So, since Ap has brought up the issue of strikers escaping from grappling range to return to their favored distance, anybody got footwork that will facilitate their goal?

Well, here's my disclaimer: I have footwork that'll help create distance on someone trying to close distance. But whether it's a valid defense against a skilled takedown artist is an entirely different question. One we'll probably both have to answer for ourselves.

But here's a toy to play with: Look at the page yenhoi linked. The "female" triangle. Imagine if, when you're in your sparring stance, your rear foot is on the point of the triangle and your lead foot is at the end of one of the "legs" (either the right or left leg depending on whether you lead right or left).

When an opponent advances, your lead foot comes back to the point of the triangle and your rear foot goes to the end of the opposite leg. In effect, you've switched leads and then stepped off on a 45 (roughly) degree angle. Off the line of attack.

It's worked well for me against aggressive strikers. But here's the potential pitfall (or one of them) against the takedown attempt. Depending on how quickly you can switch your feet, the footwork pattern might put both of them in the same place (the point of the triangle) at the same time. Good news for the grappler. Bad news for you.

Ideally, the rear foot begins to move away from the point while the lead foot is still en route to the point. That way, you're feet don't meet. And you're already part way to a sprawl if it comes to that.

Last disclaimer: Untested against a determined takedown artist. So I suggest we both give this a go when we get a chance. Dig?


Stuart B.

[Chang Style Novice]

I suggest we both give this a go when we get a chance. Dig?Is there any other way to find out? </rhetorical>

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Is there any other way to find out? </rhetorical>

Tarot. That's all I'm sayin'.

[yenhoi]

The triangle is designed to be used with these concepts:

Sectoring: Anticipating the next **ANGLE** of attack.

Manipulation: Pulling/pushing/using levers/striking/etc

Of course if you lose at those games then you fall down.... like everyone else.

If someone "gives" you intense forward pressure, with a triangle and no weapon, so should "in theory" end up behind the other person.

:eek:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by apoweyn

But here's the potential pitfall (or one of them) against the takedown attempt. Depending on how quickly you can switch your feet, the footwork pattern might put both of them in the same place (the point of the triangle) at the same time. Good news for the grappler. Bad news for you.

Ideally, the rear foot begins to move away from the point while the lead foot is still en route to the point. That way, you're feet don't meet. And you're already part way to a sprawl if it comes to that.


where will the rear foot go, after getting to the point of the triangle? that leg is still kind of hanging back to be grabbed, or are you kind of sprawling as you step, placing your weight on him as you move around?

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by SevenStar


where will the rear foot go, after getting to the point of the triangle? that leg is still kind of hanging back to be grabbed, or are you kind of sprawling as you step, placing your weight on him as you move around?

Well, I guess that's the part that's still subject to testing with a grappler. The rear foot is simply the rear foot of your sparring stance again. So you've switched stance, but done so in such a way that 1) you retreated slightly rather than doing a side shuffle, buying you some space and 2) rather than a normal switch stance, you finish up off of the line of engagement.

But yeah, as you pointed out, there's a good chance that a shooter is still going to get your leg. In which case, you are going to want to turn it into a sprawl by leaning on him.

Here's why I put the disclaimer in though. I don't want to be one of those "you just do this" guys. In truth, I'm not sure how well it'd transition to the sprawl. It seems viable to me. But I don't know.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more risky that seems. If you pull off the footwork pattern but he gets what's now your rear leg anyway, then your lead leg is just that. In the lead. Totally wrong place for the sprawl.

Hmm... I don't know Sevenstar. I think I might just have sunk my own battleship.


Stuart B.

[yenhoi]

Its easy to sprawl. You never give up your basic stance. Triangles are more of a complex theory of facing then an actual footwork pattern.. Your still push shuffling about the place. You might also have your hands on the guy, which changes everything about what your footwork is actually doing.

:eek:

[No_Know]

"Start in clinch range, with each player holding the other at shoulder or bicep (this is pretty close to standard judo clinch of one hand at sleeve one at lapel.)"

4

attacker presses/strikesdefender's front side of neck with the bottom (outside) of foot.

[Chang Style Novice]

You must be one flexible sonofa, NoKnow.

[Chang Style Novice]

More Gen. Ma technique -

form the grip described before, attack your opponents front foot with a sweep from your rear foot. As he steal steps to avoid the sweep, plant your new front foot behind him, then continue turning in the same direction for a twisting/tripping takedown.

[SevenStar]

ttt

[neigung]

Surprised no one mentioned Rooster Hop.
Covers a huge amount of distance (8-10 ft if you practice it with a step through) in a small amount of time.
Good for catching up with some who's taken a few steps back after being hit, etc. or is afraid of being in your range.

[Chang Style Novice]

Catching up to someone retreating isn't a problem in my experience. Backpedalling is always slower than forwrad pressure, ain't it?

Anyway, I don't know the Rooster Hop by that name, so describe it, please.

[fa_jing]

Ap - I'm thinking about your move, vs. the single leg shoot - I see it as you are moving your center of gravity directly side ways, while retracting the leg out of the way...hopefully with some arm control...I think he'll for the rear leg now, what I would do is then turn my stance and maybe pull my rear leg around me ****her while applying a grab/push to the nearest shoulder/upper arm...I think at some point you have to face him and throw centerline punches....but hopefully you won't let him come in with momentum.

hypothetically speaking of course. You know if we never test this, we can all be right!

[Daredevil]

Took me a while to see this thread ..

CSN asked a Baji player's view on shoulder strikes. I didn't quite grasp the shoulder strike CSN presented and tend to feel that it seems overly complex.

He wrote:

"A shoulder strike. From within grappling range, step with your rear foot to a spot between behind the leading foot of your opponent, as if to initiate a tripping attack. ..."

The description continued from there, but in Baji, the moment to execute a shoulder strike (one of the shoulder strikes anyway) is there, immediately when that (quoted) text ends.

Just like stepping in for a tripping attack, but just sort off use your own hands to clear off the defender's hands and move into the opponent - side of body (hip to shoulder) hitting the opponent as one unit. Through the opponent, not leaning into the opponent.

Very heavily dependent on footwork. That's where the power originates from (incorporating the typical Baji body "turn"/"stomp").

* * *

I learned a very different way of using the cross step in Baji that's rather difficult to describe in words without having any images to show. In Baji, the cross step is used to go forward, but is done sort of "in reverse", incorporating a full 180 degree turn. Very effective in slipping past your opponent while still delivering attacks and staying on his outside.

Stand toe to toe with your opponent, right foot forward, then slip your rear (left) foot deep to the right (and outside) of your opponent (to your front) while turning to face the other direction. You're now directly to your opponent's side with your legs in "cross step".

While slipping to this position, you're in prime position to elbow your opponent's ribs or slam your palm to his private parts (using the right arm to attack, while the left controls the opponent's outside/left hand). The footwork powers this (everything starts moving together, everything stops together).

If your opponent just stands there like a dummy (rather unlikely, wouldn't you say), your right hand can continue in an arc to chop at his neck (Piqua-style), while your right foot slides back and steals his balance. Your left hand still continues to control his left hand (apply twisting as your right foot slides into his structure and your right hand chops his neck). Again, everything starts moving together, everything stops together.

Now, hopefully that wasn't too confusing. It sure got technical. It's complex in words, simple and flowing in execution ...

[Chang Style Novice]

Thanks for the input, Matt Murdock! I definitely agree that the drill we worked was too elaborate and dependent upon a specific reaction from an opponent to be of a whole lot of use, but the general idea behind it seemed sound (using following footwork to close distance/using lateral footwork to evade.) Feel free to post further thoughts on Baji stepping at any time.

On a slightly offtopic note, it seems strange to me that you'd use the whole side of your body, shoulder to hip for a body-check strike. I'd figure it'd be more useful to reduce the size of the imapct area, say a shoulder or elbow to make it more like a punch. Care to elaborate on why you use the whole flank for this manuever?

[CrippledAvenger]

Keep up the good work on this thread, guys. Lots of good reading here.

[No_Know]

"Depending on how quickly you can switch your feet, the footwork pattern might put both of them in the same place (the point of the triangle) at the same time. Good news for the grappler. Bad news for you. "

Timing, perhaps. Lead withdrawsbeing persued. If the shooter is very fast (or fast enough to catch the legs together at about the same place, then continue to step back passed the rea triangle point (lean in some to counter the incomming force). Brace with the retreating foot/leg.

If you brace soon enough, then slightly step forward to effect a mild? jam to the shooter possiblly focused on the withdrawn leg or the possible two leg.

A point is to take the target leg out of reach-ish.

Going down is recommended with a side retreating move, such that a twist/turn is added to the shooter that the shooter breakfalls with h er/is face. Turn with down drive.


I No_Know

[apoweyn]

No Know,

Yeah, done properly, your feet aren't in the same place at the same time. And I think the maneuver could be turned into a sprawl without too much difficulty. I'll give it a go.

*crash*

Well, turns out you need some else to practice sprawling with. Otherwise, you're practicing more of a face dive into the desk.


Stuart 'clearly the year's end has me feeling a bit goofy' B.

[No_Know]

If your chair has wheels~ and moves pushing away from your desk at angles works. but pull-in at the same angles if you can for muscle balance-ish.

Also in the kitchen or where there is tile or non splintered wooden floors, using a sink, or counter, the wall is really good but you might not have access to or would like the support, with papertowles or hand towels or ovenmitts or in socks(clean/dress...)press your self out at an angle (of deflection).

If you are falling assume a pushup to beat the smack. Makenarrow sprawls at first-sh because you should not sprawl wider than from which you can pull yourself back up. Narrow to wider then closer to ****her back.

Done these comfort stages might develope some of the stuff you would use if you with another sprawled.

This does not address the impact nor struggle, but the other 65% or so...For those who might need it. This is more an aid than an end-all.

To address the clashish fall to the wall or counter and sprawl as soon as can (work on this) when contact is felt. Even walk or faster into falling to.

In part perhaps at least, some might think.