"Chasing Hands".....

[KenWingJitsu]

Yeah you know the phrase and none of you "chase hands" ever. Right? ;)

Yeah right!! On other threads like "The WSL Way", and some others, like in clips that have been posted, this topic has come up, and I want to see what people define as "chasing hands".

Everyone says they don't do it,.......which is nonsense. It is rampant in Wing Chun. So....what is YOUR definition of chasing hands, with some examples. And why do you think you don't do it?

Me??? :rolleyes: oh, I have seen a few things I would call "chasing hands"...the most obvious would be using the WC "shapes" to "block" strikes..(or try to - lol). That is the worst example rampant in many people's expression of WCK. But there are many more....so let's hear some, and let's hear why you dont do it....

[Ernie]

chasing hands , chasing timing , chasing a concept or idea cuz your to stubborn to change , and so on.

yep ive done it , just like when you bite on a good fake ,i'm sure i will do it many,many times again

but with each time i will try to find the cause of ignorance and train it out .

finding it means being honest with yourself , easy say , hard to do

not chasing hand's '' nearest weapon to the nearest '' center '' offered ,

'' but i swear one of these days if i just keep trying my bong sau will catch the jab :D ''

plz shoot me now

[Wingman]

Chasing hands is when you try to establish contact with the opponent's hands; when you SHOULD HAVE executed a strike/attack instead.

One advise my teacher gave me to avoid chasing hands, "When you have nothing else to do, strike".

[Ultimatewingchun]

Ernie:

Moving forward toward the opponent with your bong sao WHEN he jabs at you might be interesting to try...watch his lead elbow in order to determine the "moment".

[anerlich]

No basic disagreement here so far.

per Mushashi: think only of striking the enemy.

per Frank Benn: Like Christmas, better to give than to receive.

My Sifu wants my defense to become so automatic it needs no conscious attention. So that my total conscious attention is on hitting.

If YOU are laying the smackdown, any chasing of hands will be done by the other guy.

per Ernie: easy say , hard to do

Concentration on less direct goals like trying to impose a specific technique, leads to chasing hands.

per Scott Sonnon: "take the gift, don't seek the bounty"

If your goal in the exchange is much more complicated than "hit him" or "take'em down, choke 'em out", or contains the name of a technique in either Chinese or your native tongue, it's too complicated or indirect to be realistic.

Not unique to WC - I've seen grapplers chase takedowns, chase armbars, etc. Done it myself way too often too.

[Phil Redmond]

To me chasing hands means leaving the boundaries of where your hands should be and creating an opening for your opponent. Chasing hands leaves gates open. I like them closed.

[Ernie]

ultimatewing chun
Ernie:

Moving forward toward the opponent with your bong sao WHEN he jabs at you might be interesting to try...watch his lead elbow in order to determine the "moment

don't mind me i'm on silly mode today ,

how about this instead , a 3 foot man trying to punch a 7 foot man in the face cus his following the rule to a ''t''

[kj]

Originally posted by Ernie
how about this instead , a 3 foot man trying to punch a 7 foot man in the face cus his following the rule to a ''t''

Sounds to me like 3' guy has the wrong rule book.

Regards,
- kj

[old jong]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
To me chasing hands means leaving the boundaries of where your hands should be and creating an opening for your opponent. Chasing hands leaves gates open. I like them closed.
Couldn't be said better!...;)

[yuanfen]

Ernie sez:
how about this instead , a 3 foot man trying to punch a 7 foot man in the face cus his following the rule to a ''t''
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In part preaching to atleast part of the choir Ernie.Never have heard of such a rule never have followed or taught such a rule..

[Ernie]

hahah
i was told a story about a wing chun fight in hong kong were the wing chun person was defeating the other guy but the other guy kept turning his face away from the wing chun person , so the wing chun person would run all the way around to were the guy was facing and then start punching from there . and this went on and on
when asked why he kept doing that instead of just hitting from were he was he replied , i had to keep attacking his center , thinking that the center was only the face and front torso .

i just played with the moral a bit

so though he was not chasing hands he was chasing concept

but lets not turn this thread into a take apart ernies stories cus i lack the creativity to come up with a better example :)

kwj asked a very good question , i just want to see what ohers think as well

[old jong]

Ha!...
Many " teachers" just go by the book and don't explain principles and concepts to their students. They will often say that "If you ask means that you are not ready to know" this brings many of these misconceptions about Wing Chun and ....the need to seek answers outside of the system.
It would be more appropriate to seek a better Sifu and learn a better Wing Chun but how do you know for sure if the person you go to is a good teacher ,without the experience and knowledge to see the difference?...Easier to notice the nearest badass with a loud mouth.;)

[hunt1]

Ken good topic. Fully agree most say they dont chase but when the fists start to fly they do.
I have always felt that all the topics posted on the how do you deal with jabs etc have been trick questions.The answer is you dont.

Chasing stems from fear and a misunderstanding of combat. If you fight you will get hit.(Unless your opponent is far beneath your abilities). You must accept getting hit as the risk you take from fighting. The goal is not to avoid getting hit but to avoid getting hit with full power while hitting at close to your full power.

To avoid chasing you must understand the golden rule; the other hand always comes. Therefore we must learn to move in such a way to cover the most likely path of the second hand before it ever starts to move.

To avoid chasing we must understand that there are no blocks in wing chun. WingChun coves but does not block.

There is more but this will do.

[Nick Forrer]

I agree with everything that has been said so far and dont have much more to add except that
1) looking for a 'trap' is chasing hands.
2) Having a defensive mindset is the most common cause of 'chasing hands'.
3) There are times when you should chase hands i.e. when you are out of wing chun range but in (for want of a better word) boxing range and haven't got time or the opportunity (yet) to close the distance.

Regards

Nick

[YongChun]

This is a good topic. A very obvious chasing of hands is when your are doing chi sau with a student, you disengage and do a wide slow obvious hook punch (for training purposes) and that student goes outside of his body boundary to block the hit rather than to just hit straight forward upon loss of contact as the Wing Chun maxim suggests. If you just hold that hook punch out there so the student can't even contact it, then he realizes that it was a waste to try to connect with the hooking punch rather than to just hit straight forward.

We use the suggestion that whatever attack comes your initial response should be to strike the opponent and not think about blocking or deflecting incoming hit. Of course if the counter strike is executed wisely then you will also position yourself away from the opponent's flight path or you will also have a barrier (Wu sau or Tan sau or Pak sau) there for the incoming strike at the same time.

The danger of interpreting not chasing hands as totally ignoring the opponents hands and just going for the hit is that you might get hit or that all Wing Chun comes down to two people chain punching each other to death in a wild flurry of action where both sides are getting hit. I think to prevent this kind of thing in fencing they put in a rule that you must engage the blade of the incoming strike first and then you can counter hit. But I am not a fencer so I could be wrong. Depending on the circumstance of use and the relative skill of the opponent, sometimes you don't want to hit the guy and just control (teacher vs elementary school student for example or drunk relative at a Christmas party).

In an effort of trying to prevent from getting hit, many students like to try to grab the hand coming in (like Aikido). Someone with quick reflexes could take advantage of this and when the hand is suddenly not there you got big problems. You have just wasted a movement trying to catch a bird by the tail as they say in Tai Chi but it has taken flight and you don't know where it went. MY Hung style teacher was very good at doing decptive "S" shaped strikes that looked like they were coming in at a certain angle, so that if you tried to block then suddenly the strike would end up coming around your block to hit you anyway. The instant you thought about blocking the strike would be elswhere.

The superior thing to do is to counter a strike with a strike without getting hit. But this isn't always possible. Sometimes you just have time to cover the space and the incoming strike connects with your limb somewhere maybe with the Bong sau and Wu sau combination or Bong sau and Tan sau combination (Kwun sau) leading to a grab and punch/chop or with a Pak sau movement leading to a punch or chop.

The blocks of some systems like in Hung style are often considered strikes because they are meant to destroy/damage/hurt the incoming limb like an anti-missile strike.
Some will feel this is chasing hands and some won't. Against inferior kickers it seems quite effective just to kick the incoming kick.

[AndrewS]

I'll chime in on this one, Dhira,

On the simplest level, chasing hands is reacting and going for an incoming limb, usually taking the shortest path from your present hand position to that of the incoming limb, and putting force into that limb without regard to vector relative to body. This is blocking in it's purest and worst sense. Make it and all you do is stop (and possibly sting) the shot. If it changes or you misjudge you get hit. It may be a last ditch necessity to cover but it's a pretty bad option.

In chi sao this becomes games played hand against hand when forward pressure is lost.

On the visual level, what you *should* be doing - if you operate in the timing where you're in the space where the shot can hit you - is taking your hands from their present position into your opponent's core by the shortest path which intersects the incoming force.

On a kinetic level, what you *should* be doing is applying force to affect the core of the body, usually using a force which contains a component which is a constant pressure towards the other person's core, rather than pushing the other person's limbs.

The visual mistake is what gets most people nailed in free motion, the kinetic is the mistake most often seen in chi sao.

Later,

Andrew

[Keng Geng]

Beware of DOUBLE KILL.

Many Wing Chun students are so caught up in not chasing hands they end up subjecting themselves to it.

[KenWingJitsu]

Beware of DOUBLE TALK! lol

Anyways,...I am proud of you guys. There are some real gems posted already. WIngman, hunt1 Nick, AndrewS, Yong Chun....brilliant posts! Nice nice nice!!!!! There is still hope!

Victor, about tryin the bong sau on a jab......have you tried it? What happened? Furthermore...should you even try to "bong-sau" a jab? How would you know he's going to jab? Why not attack center first?

Phil, what do you mean by "closing gates" Can you give an example? Say an attack is coming, you dont know which hand (or foot) he's going to attack with. What "gate" do you close? What do you do?

[Phil Redmond]

I simply mean covering an area without over extending.
I train in drills to cover random attacks over and over sort of like a boxer does, (muscle memory). After doing lots of contact chi sau your eyes will get used to the angles of attacks. Once an attack is launched from a distance further than the customary chi sau distance movements are easier to see and interpret. Then I do slow counters to random attacks and build the speed up to "real" time. If I get hit I drill...drill....drill. I don't have a glass jaw so I don't mind at all. In fact it kind of spices up the drill.
Pain is weakness coming out. USMC.
Also, watching the lead elbow/knee helps. I always expect a feint strike. In fact I love when that happens...grin. I have some students in Canada that are boxers. I train with them also.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dhira:

About the bong sao against the jab - have done it many times- only works from the parallel position (ie. - my right leg lead vs. his left leg lead...with my foot placed slightly to the outside of his foot).

You must move toward him with an extended bong sao/wu sao as he begins to throw the punch...IT IS USED TO JAM HIM UP...and set him up for the transition to lop sao.

How do I know he will throw the jab ? Because I'm watching his elbows and knees - especially his lead elbow.

[russellsherry]

]
hi guys merry xmas good topic, hi nick liked your repey about trapipng one, should never seek to trap in wing chun it should just happen, also my number one rule i dont regard fakes as fakes, i regard them as strikes and if someone moves i hit him simple as that, peace and merry xmas from close range combat australia russellsherry

[KenWingJitsu]

i dont regard fakes as fakes, i regard them as strikes and if someone moves i hit him simple as that,

RUssell,...I like that :D

Victor, question. "How do I know he will throw the jab ? Because I'm watching his elbows and knees - especially his lead elbow." What if you see his elbow move and he wasnt going to jab with it...it wa just moving..yet you bong sau........

or...you see his elbow move, you move to do the bong-sao, but...it's not a jab? say you thought it would be a jab, but his elbow 'deceived' you...and he threw a hook instead?

Phil
I simply mean covering an area without over extending.
1) Are you "covering an area" in anticipation of him striking? Or are you covering in response to his strikes? ( I think one of those would be 'chasing')

2) When you say "covering" like a boxer, are you covering "gates" to shield the incoming strikes? If so, I have something to add here....

[old jong]

...IMO, if "you" can see an elbow move or any beginning of an attack or,feint; attack! ...Why should you do a bong,boxing cover...:rolleyes: or any other defensive motion?...
Break whatever the guy is trying ,take over his timing and punch him in the face.That is Wing Chun.
Tabarnak!... :confused:

[Ultimatewingchun]

KWJ (Dhira):

Good question...I see the elbow moving toward me - it looks like a jab - I start moving toward it with AN EXTENDED BONG/WU (kiu sao range)...

... and he turns it into a hook !

I must immediately turn the bong sao into a lop sao - HITTING (striking and grabbing) THE INSIDE of his punching elbow - while changing my direction (slightly) so as to have my centerline now face his elbow... and turning the wu sao into a punch to his face. (The punch to the face comes from you could call your shoulder-line)...

...but the technical term for it in TWC is: The Central Line.


Skill at this kind of thing is developed by constantly drilling - ie.-"making" the eyes learn to obey TO STAY FOCUSED ON THE ELBOW...(of course it's really the mind that is being trained...not the eyes).

[Phil Redmond]

>>1) Are you "covering an area" in anticipation of him striking? Or are you covering in response to his strikes? ( I think one of those would be 'chasing')<<

In response or anticipation. Depends on the circumstance. If I cover in anticipation then I have a setup planned. If my plan fails I cover in response. You can't win unless you attack. I prefer to fight offensivley as much as I can and to act and re-act randomly.
I trained with JHR guys by placing one heel against a wall and covering random bare knuckle shots thrown and my body and head while never moving my heel off the wall. I got a pretty good sense of how to cover myself. Of course I got hit sometimes. But if you can cover blows while standing against a wall it's easier when you can use footwork.

>>2) When you say "covering" like a boxer, are you covering "gates" to shield the incoming strikes? If so, I have something to add here....<<

Maybe I shouldn't have said like a boxer since I'm not.

[yuanfen]

Victor sez:
... and he turns it into a hook !
I must immediately turn the bong sao into a lop sao - HITTING (striking and grabbing) THE INSIDE of his punching elbow - while changing my direction (slightly) so as to have my centerline now face his elbow... and turning the wu sao into a punch to his face. (The punch to the face comes from you could call your shoulder-line)...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Different perspectives...
FWIW/IMO...you (generic you)could be one step behind the other guy in terms of timing.
But since I dont do TWC- I dont "watch" the elbow- though the elbow is terribly important in wc mechanics.

[foolinthedeck]

anyone who says that they dont chase the hands is bad wing chun
anyone who says your shouldnt chase the hands is bad wing chun!!

why?

because you can only learn from experience, no one can teach you anything ( thank you sifu for teaching me niothing!), so the best thing is to chase the hands because it is held to be wrong and find out for yourself if and why and develop from there.

eventually your hands work out what is best,

"once the trench has been dug,
the water can only flow into it.
Talking about the trench
only slows down the digging."

[KenWingJitsu]

Victor, I agree with yaunfen on this one...you will be one step behind to catch the hook...whereas had you gon into his center, you could have nulified it.....I guess old jong can make an intelligent statement once in a blue moon even if it happens once every 3 years.....

I trained with JHR guys by placing one heel against a wall and covering random bare knuckle shots thrown and my body and head while never moving my heel off the wall.
Phil, remember where I said I might have something to add, THIS IS IT. I do the same drill. Interesting eh? lol. Nice. I have several progressions for it, variations I've picked up from a boxing coach and a Muay Thai guy. Now this conversation is about to get interesting.
The reason i'm about to ask this question is I have "one" answer, but I'm not sure yet if it's the "best" answer, so i want to see where you apply this drill in sparring.

When? When you've lost control of him and he's wailing on you? When he attacks,? when would you 'cover'. (which by the way to me is a VERY viable alternative, and very different from "blocking"- more on that later).

[Phil Redmond]

That's a hard one. I can only speak from a few experiences I had. Once I got clocked and was sort of out of it but the barrage kept on coming. Had I punked out I would have been dissed by the guys in my barrio. Especially since they knew I studied the "arts".
All I could do was cover until I got my senses back which eventually happened. Sometimes the rules were no hitting back. All you were allowed to do was cover, bob, and weave. They do this in the joint (Rikers Island) a lot. That's what makes JHR fighters fearless of getting hit. When allowed I could parry and counter

[Ernie]

dhira and phil
can i chime in :)

i was introduced to that type of drill from a bkf kenpo friend of mine , back to the wall feet planted and getting fired on from up close and then entry's

later by my boxing coach hands tied behind my back and just head and waist movment

but the most interesting version is with weapons were you have to stick and knife spare '' counter for counter '' with you feet planted on the ground , talk about twisting body mechnics :D

the blade really bought a cat like quickness

when i went back to empty hands they seemed slow

just adding a thought

[KenWingJitsu]

OPhil, took me a while to reply...holidays & stuff but...
Once I got clocked and was sort of out of it but the barrage kept on coming. Had I punked out I would have been dissed by the guys in my barrio. Especially since they knew I studied the "arts".

OMG! you mean you got hit! Well, your wing chun must suck. beacuse wing chun is perfect in every way and if you got hit, wing chun didnt fail you, you failed wing chun, Now you must pay penance.......

lol. As you can guess the above is my 'commentary' on the predominant mindset around here. Enough on that for now.

First off kudos for talking about what seems to be tabboo around here....what to do when the 'ish hits the fan.
Second I just wanted to say. HELL YEAH! That is EXACTLY when i would use the 'cover' also. I just wanted to see where you'd use it, because it's fairly new to me and I wanted to figure out where it would fit into the scheme of things. I settled on what I call the "oops I f@cked up" range...either I got hit, I let him get too close, or I didnt control him enough to prevent him from firing first. that's when I'd use it - till I 'recover'. The it's either to the clinch or back to range once I've cleared my head, and then it's (hopefully) hammer time.

Nice. And by the way, the way you described training that drill is EXACTLY the way I learned it from a phenomenal boxing coach I happened to come across......

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dhira:

Regarding the hook punch: It's the same situation you and I recently discussed concerning defending the double-leg takedown....

At a very close distance I agree with you and Joy - go straight in.

At a slightly longer range - quickly turn your centerline to face the blow while blocking with lop or biu...stronger block - you'll need it because he now has more power coming at you.

Punch back on your shoulderline (central line).

[mun hung]

Watching the elbow of a jab will only serve in getting oneself knocked out or brain damage. jab jab jab jab

What happens when you can't see the elbow? jab jab jab jab

Bong sau/wu sau a jab? Then lop sau? jab jab jab jab

I'll gladly pay you a hundred dollars if you can do that to my jab and I'm not even close to being a boxer.

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Hung Mun, I know it's a long time from now but I'll be in NJ when my Sifu comes in April or May. I always got to Brooklyn to visit with my kids when I go back east. I mean no disrepect but I guarantee that I could either redirect your jab or at the least cover the path of it. We could even try a jab hook with the same arm. My advantage will be that I know you're throwing it.That's why I'll take your bet. Since you offered I could probably use the hundred bucks in the city. Then we could have lunch. I'll PM you my cell number just before I go to let you know when I'll be in the city.
Phil

[Keng Geng]

My money's on Mun Hung.

[mun hung]

First off - my apologies if I've hijacked this thread in any way, but this is getting interesting.

Respect the jab. It is one of the most difficult punches to deal with - especially from anyone who can throw a good one or two or three. jab jab jab jab

Phil - I have no doubt in my mind that you can "protect" yourself from a jab using a bong/wu combination. Covering the path of a jab is easy. Even redirecting it isn't too difficult. I could effectively protect myself from jabs all day long in the fetal position. Making the person throwing the jab pay dearly for it is an entirely different story. You must earn my hundred bucks doing it Victor's way.

Victor's solution for the jab was to step in with a bong sau/wu sau combination, "jam" the punch and then lop sau. In my very humble and experienced opinion - this would be a grave mistake. I would never walk into a jab and try to intercept it with a bong sau/wu sau attempting to "jam" the punch unless my intention was to get knocked out. Trying to lop it afterwards??? The bong sau "jam" only works in a certain range and jabbing distance aint one of them. jab jab jab jab

My solution? Coverage and timing.

I will now proceed to Gleasons Gym to work on my terrible jab until April/May and watch all the Rocky movies again and again. I can see myself running thru Chinatown while Chinese grocers throw bok choy at me. (flyinggg high nowww...)

[Phil Redmond]

Gleason's near the old Felt Forum and MSG? I trained there in the 70's
I personally would not use the bong wu against a jab but that's me. My student's in Ontario train at a boxing gym also. These guys are fast. They make me work big time.
Some one on the forum offered to put up videos on a server? for me. If he does I'll post some clips of how fast and dynamic these guys are and some WC solutions. I sent ernie a clip of one method against a jab. I'd like to share it with all if i can put up clips here.

[mun hung]

I just started to set up my server rack tonite, and would be happy to let you use it for any videos clips you might want to share. I should be up and running by next week.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Mun hung:

You don't have to pay me...Just don't sue me if I hurt you.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Mun Hung:

Since I see you are serious about the defending and attacking the jab...I'll say a bit more about the bong-to-lop scenario:

I don't expect to grab the jab with lop sao and hold it while I punch you with the other hand...

The lop I'm referring to is one in which the lopping motion disapppears very quickly (it's simply meant to redirect the blow)...and my other hand then pins (gum sao) your jabbing elbow, at which point -

the hand that lopped will become the first strike that I will throw.

The key to the whole thing is THE FORWARD PRESSURE.

I will come in from the parallel position (ie. - my right leg leads vs. your leading left leg), and I will be stepping up on the outside of your lead leg.

The forward pressure I referred to will serve to jam you up...TAKE YOUR SPACE AWAY...in terms of your ability to follow up with punches...So I will be using very aggressive footwork.

I would be more than happy to show you what I mean in person sometime.

P.S. - I might also decide to use a different initial move other than
bong/lop - such as pak/cheun (underneath biu sao)...depending on exactly how you throw the jab....at which point the original pak hand will strike you first; OR the pak hand will become the gum sao that I described earlier....etc....depending upon whether or not you decide to move away (ie.- backwards) after the initial pak/cheun.

[hunt1]

Thanks to all for the chuckles! For the challenge to be fair and a reasonable test of combat the two parties should begin from contact range. No boxer worth his salt is going to throw a jab unless he is within striking distance. Far,far,far to many people practice from unrealastic distances. So if Mun Hung starts from a distance where is jab can land without overeaching things should be very interesting.:D

[Phil Redmond]

hunt1 you're right.
Unless it's a sucker punch TWC starts with an extended guard at the onset of an encounter, (look at the guard on my site). That way the opponent has to either take a step or over extend to hit me. Of course in a clench things are different.
I train against one and multiple random jabs.

[Ernie]

phil sent me some clips last night were he was working of a jab , looked like a pak to a tan da combination depending on the jabs intent jab double jab , or jab to a hook line .

phil was crispy and relaxed , his timing and control of space was very clean .

he has obviously worked off high quality boxers , could tell by the reaction and footwork , that only comes from real practice and really shutting skilled people down and really getting hit when you don't


i've said it before and i'll say it again [body mechanics don't lie]

[mun hung]

(quote)originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"You don't have to pay me...Just don't sue me if I hurt you".

That's what she said.

[Abstract]

my money i$ on mun hung... ;)

wattap man, btw....

ultimate...you can't really 'pin' a jab. a boxer trains so that punch is automatically retracted almost as soon as it's thrown...and can be done so multiple times to set the opponent up for something hurtful

and truthfully, forward pressure or not, you'll walk into a hook or eat an uppercut if you miraculously pin someone's jab...

mun hungs answer was on the money, coverage & timing