It no longer makes any sense?

[Phenix]

life is strange and things are strange.

You see, in WC, everyone is teached to attack, capture.... others center line.

But, the biggest Taboo is that one was teached to stand in YJKYM, keep the center line still, and practice the mighty SLT.

Guess what? that build up a habit of subsconciously keep still in the center line. so, that is great for others to attack and Bjj to lock aned choke one. He he he, I tried and seen it through how it really works for the opponents to choke me.

Isn't it strange for one that teached to attack other's center line but one keep training to build up habit of still center line which is giving out the target one will attack?


He he he he strange.

[old jong]

What about Chum Kiu and Biu gee?...
You don't just stand there like an idiot waiting for a double leg!...
The forms are a development of body/mind and Wing Chun attributes but we usually practice all kinds of drills like various chi sau formats,technical studies,whatever.Vigourous chi sau can be as near as free fighting as anything else if you want.
We can even buy some gracie tapes to learn from if we want!....;) (Just in case!);)

[Phenix]

But the SLT is the most advance most basic and most mighty right?

it is similar to teaching a baby how to walk right?

and then teaching the baby how to attack.
and in the same time let the baby stand in a position of practice that it open to attack.

He He He.. :D

Gracy is not dangarous. The most dangerous thing is do we know what are we doing.


-------------------------------------------------------------------
Pheonix never die it grow bigger everytime it burn into ashes.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


Interesting info.!

In LJWC we practice the SLT portion, methods, ging patterns etc. (whatever we want to call them "or all of the above") with the basic YJKYM powering methods, turns, etc.. We change from center to side lines and other stuff.

Is this what you are talking about?


Regards,

[old jong]

But,even a baby has to grow up and leave home for kindergarden still maintaining his early developments.Later he will go to school,work etc...
The meaning of his early life discoveries will be better understood and mastered.
Eh?...;) :D

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Phenix
Gracy is not dangarous. The most dangerous thing is do we know what are we doing.

that is the same thought process that gets people taken to the ground and beaten senseless. you need experience against a grappler so that you know how to deal with his tactics. plain and simple...

[Phenix]

that is the same thought process that gets people taken to the ground and beaten senseless. you need experience against a grappler so that you know how to deal with his tactics. plain and simple...-------------------S


A good way to think. But not the only way.

Knowing oneself and knowing others obviously is the best.
however, one has to know oneself before knowing others.
face it, one cannot always know one's enermy.


BTW, since the Grappler can do Choking.
Can WCK people aim thier Throat Cutting palm to the Grappler's **** and **** or palm strike to the **** of thier **** also? if that is the case who will be beaten senseless. that is difficult to say. See, WCK has its tactics too. See, even Mas Oyama will not be able to wreste the OX.

Why should WC people force to accomodate other's tactics?
or MAs oyama force to crush with the OX?

I am not saying no good to learn. I actually trying to feel and learn how others tactic to understand them.

but, when it comes to for real I will use WCK which is my art not graper's technics which left him to give me mercy. that is a different story.

Think about it. if I have two oyama's knives hand on my hands and you try to grap me. what happen? :D good that I am no Oyama. IMHO


back to the still center line. hehehehe :D


PS: DO NOT PRACTICE WHAT I AM DISCUSS HERE. I AM JUST STATE ALTERNATIVE. CERTAINLY, DON"T WANT TO SEE ANYONE GET HURT. BE IT WC or BJJ friends.

[wingtsunmonk]

Phenix,

Out of the two systems I've studied, WC first then WT currently, I've been taught SNT(SLT) first and imagine most others are.

>>it is similar to teaching a baby how to walk right?

No, a baby needs to learn how to stand before he/she can walk. (I.e. SNT vs. Chum Kiu, Biu Jee)

To stand still in WT or WC is like a pool of stagnent water, just as you have described in your encounters with BJJ. Anyone can jump in and make a big splash against you.

Regards,
WingTsunMonk

[Phenix]

Originally posted by wingtsunmonk


To stand still in WT or WC is like a pool of stagnent water, just as you have described in your encounters with BJJ. Anyone can jump in and make a big splash against you.

Regards,
WingTsunMonk

Sure,
To stand still is a problem disregards of what style one encounter.
IMHO.

So Why is SLT teaches standing still ? :D

BTW, I have encounters lots of style including the Wai Jai or "Mother In Law "style and get beat up badly. :D

[Savi]

The intent behind the SNT I train is not to teach combat apps againsts low attacks, but to teach oneself about oneself, before applying oneself. According to my WC training, the YJKYM (stance) is not intended for ground fighting/grappling attacks or defenses. Rather, it helps us understand how to maintain our centerline and body structure when channelling/dealing with energy in and out through the upper body and horse when dealing with 6 gate and upright postures.

From what you have posted in this thread about YJKYM/Centerline and its apparent vulnerabilities, is indeed, strange to me... I did not know that it was intended to deal with BJJ and other ground fighting/grapplers. Now, I think the Centerline topic should be addressed separately from the YJKYM topic to keep things distinguished and clear. But, just my opinion.

My two cents... See everyone later.

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Savi


From what you have posted in this thread about YJKYM/Centerline and its apparent vulnerabilities, is indeed, strange to me... I did not know that it was intended to deal with BJJ and other ground fighting/grapplers.

Now, I think the Centerline topic should be addressed separately from the YJKYM topic to keep things distinguished and clear. But, just my opinion.

My two cents... See everyone later.


1,
If it is apparent vulnerabilities, so what is the reason people still practice in something apparent vulnerable?

2,
One doesn't even have to face BJJ or ground fighters....
Say if one is facing a White Crane or Kyuhoshin in a San Chin Stance firing chain middle punches. will the YJKYM/Centerline SLT training sustain the firing to one's center line and capturing the oponents centerline?

3, There might be somethings in the YJKYM/Center line, SLT which we don't understand.


The topic is about "It no longer makes any sense?" :D

[wingtsunmonk]

Phenix,

>>So Why is SLT teaches standing still ?

IMHO, to develope your root...abduction in the knees...proper back-hip-foot alignment...proper foot alignment.

Re my previous post: "A baby needs to learn how to stand before he/she can walk. (I.e. SNT vs. Chum Kiu, Biu Jee)"

HTH,
Regards,
WingTsunMonk

[anerlich]

I did not know that it was intended to deal with BJJ and other ground fighting/grapplers

If it was, then it has failed and will fail dismally.

[Mckind13]

Hello

Holding the centerline to long and not knowing when to let go is as much of a sickness as giving way to pressure to easily.

David

[Vash]

Nope. It doesn't.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Phenix

Knowing oneself and knowing others obviously is the best.
however, one has to know oneself before knowing others.

agreed.

face it, one cannot always know one's enermy.

I agree there too. that's where cross training comes in handy.


BTW, since the Grappler can do Choking.
Can WCK people aim thier Throat Cutting palm to the Grappler's **** and **** or palm strike to the **** of thier **** also? if that is the case who will be beaten senseless. that is difficult to say. See, WCK has its tactics too. See, even Mas Oyama will not be able to wreste the OX.

MMA guys have those tactics. If I have you on the ground and controlled, it's easier for me to gouge your eyes than it is for you to gouge mine while standing.

Why should WC people force to accomodate other's tactics?


to be prepared.

but, when it comes to for real I will use WCK which is my art not graper's technics which left him to give me mercy. that is a different story.

nobody said fight with a grappler's techniques. However, knowing their techniques will help you defend against them. You have a MUCH better chance of defending their takedowns if you've trained against them regularly.

Think about it. if I have two oyama's knives hand on my hands and you try to grap me. what happen? :D good that I am no Oyama. IMHO

same as any other fight... I get to the distance I want - crosstraining. I've had longfist training, and currently train judo and muay thai along with grappling. I'd be using vicious leg kicks and strikes to set you up, in that event that I wanted to take you down. Also, even oyama's hands are no good if he's offbalanced and being moved backwards...


back to the still center line. hehehehe :D

we utilize the centerline, but in a different fashion.

[Vash]

once again, Sevenstar isn't wrong.

[canglong]

Isn't it strange for one that teached to attack other's center line but one keep training to build up habit of still center line which is giving out the target one will attack? 1,
If it is apparent vulnerabilities, so what is the reason people still practice in something apparent vulnerable?
Your understanding of SNT is what sounds suspect or at least your explaination of SNT
Holding the centerline to long and not knowing when to let go is as much of a sickness as giving way to pressure to easily. David, can you give an example of holding centerline too long.
we utilize the centerline, but in a different fashion different?

[SevenStar]

different.

nobody is really attacking your centerline in bjj, however, they want to control it. For example, if I'm on my back and you are in my guard, you are going to posture up and try to guard pass. You will be trying to hold my upper body down and minimize the chances of me hooking your arm and doing something to it by keeping your elbows tucked in and along my centerline. If I can get your arm across my centerline, I can attack you with various chokes and arm bars with ease.

[Keng Geng]

Phenix is alluding to a good point. (This post is based on his first post, as I haven't read all of them).

SLT is the most advanced form, yes. That doesn't mean that at advanced levels you use it as you FIRST learned it. At advanced levels you use it as you have come to understand Wing Chun.

However, MOST people you see in Wing Chun, even famous instructors are STUCK on the SLT form, as they first learned it. And that's where I think Phenix's statement is valid.

At first, one is given a basic understanding of the centreline concept, attacking to the centreline, defending on the centreline, etc. This is a very basic understanding of this principle. Most people don't take it to the next level... understanding how to manipulate this concept after having understood it.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Phenix
life is strange and things are strange.

Hi Phenix,

Yeah, remember the clothing and dance styles from the 70s? :)


You see, in WC, everyone is teached to attack, capture.... others center line.

Yes, this is an important teaching stage.


But, the biggest Taboo is that one was teached to stand in YJKYM, keep the center line still, and practice the mighty SLT.

Guess what? that build up a habit of subsconciously keep still in the center line. so, that is great for others to attack and Bjj to lock aned choke one. He he he, I tried and seen it through how it really works for the opponents to choke me.

One has to adjust for different styles. BJJ doesn't work on the centerline principle, so we shouldn't be bound by it either. :) Don't let a BJJer apply a choke. That would be bad.


Isn't it strange for one that teached to attack other's center line but one keep training to build up habit of still center line which is giving out the target one will attack?

This is a stage in learning. It works in certain circumstances, but one can train so that one's center is wherever one wants it to be at the time. First one must learn the principles of mixing paint and holding a brush, then one can paint. Only a few become artists.

Regards,

[anerlich]

BJJ doesn't work on the centerline principle

Actually, BJJ has a centreline principle which applies to fighting from the guard. Dissenters are directed to John Will's "Advanced BJJ: The BJJ Guard" for their education.

John Will is a third degree black belt under Rigan Machado.

A number of other KF styles also use the centreline, but as 7* says, they may use it differently, e.g. moving rapidly from one side to the other to expose it to the opponent for the minimum duration.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by anerlich


Actually, BJJ has a centreline principle which applies to fighting from the guard. Dissenters are directed to John Will's "Advanced BJJ: The BJJ Guard" for their education.

Agreed. In my haste, I miswrote. :) You aren't suggesting though, that the BJJ concept of centreline principle is the same as Wing Chun's are you?

Centerline can mean many things in martial arts. For Wing Chun, in my school from a given person's perspective, it means his/her centerline, and from what I've been reading here on KFO lately, some Wing Chun lineages mean different things by centerline/central line to further confuse the issue.

Each participant has his/her individual centerline, which in an extreme case can be far from the dan tien's center, and in addition, there is the concept of a centerline in the no man's land between two individuals. In practical application, against individual's who have anti-Wing Chun experience and who deny me the center through various tactics such as outside hands and wide turns, I have found it convenient to conceptualize them as if they have two centerline's running down each side mid-clavicle. Another tactic, if they're keeping me out, is to go extreme outside, and just go around them, but that's another discussion.

Against Wing Chun, I fight to have the best, most precise centerline and not to let anyone else know where I keep it. :D

Regards,

[yuanfen]

FWIW- the use of the word "center line" shows the great diversity,
contradictions and possibly confusion in the use of the word.
IMO of course.

[foolinthedeck]

i didnt read all the replies.
we're not allowed to talk anymore about z#n, but the way is not answering the question. those who know the answer to phenix's question, himself included will not attempt to answer it, because we know that by answering it, we deny our SLT-nature.