Iron Palm

[WinterPalm]

Hello, just wondering if anybody in here knows of anyone that trained in iron palm without using any dit dat jow? Is so, could you share with me what the outcome was? Is there any styles that include training in iron palm without any jow? How do they differ in training and application? Do they take longer to develop?

[David Jamieson]

all the cma versions i have heard of use dit da jow in ip training.

in japanese styles, they do develop the hard striking hand without the use of medicines.

styles such as Isshinryu, goju ryu have conditioning exercises for the hands that achieve approximately the same results. The callousing is part of it though and the hands can become damaged, especially when a person gets older.

makawari practice, tree striking, breaking exercises etc are parts of many style of Karate and there wasn't until recently any medicines used except for massage, and hot water swirling with the hands.

I think the Chinese method is the best personally. You can strike hard with it's practice and your hands don't betray your training because of the medicine.

cheers

[fiercest tiger]

I know of a kung fu school here in sydney that dont use jow they think there chi kung/hei kung is good enough. HMMM 3 of there students have come to me so far to get there hands fixed with the YKM medicine. One guy was having chest problems that could have been related to the IP training from the shock from incorrect striking etc.

I personally wouldnt train IP without my Dit dar jow.

FT:)

[Vash]

I've got the address for some pretty good Jow . . . I'll post it tomorrow.

[once ronin]

iron palm without good chi kung can hurt the body.

the ripply going back to the body is bad.

iron palm can be learned without medicine. but you must have a good coach or risk getting hurt.

learning thru a video wont make it.

[WinterPalm]

Thanks for the replies. I have a great Sifu and have no worries about injuring myself as his hands look fine and I follow his instructions as close as I can. However, I was just looking for some insights into common injuries or even case histories as to what can happen with improper instruction or practice. Thanks again.:D

[David Jamieson]

sc_guy

I think that was what he was asking.

I agree, the way that does it without the medicine to remove blood stasis and break up scar tissue will indeed carry forward into your autumn years and you will regret.

But, to do it properly, that is to say, use medicine, use the prescribed gongs and use the correct method will give you significant striking power and will not damage your hands.

cheers

[David Jamieson]

sc_guy

I have been doing the training since I was first introduced to it in and around 96 I guess.

Sifu, to the best of my knowledge has been doing it for years.

I don't suffer any consequences at all. I use the mung bean bag, I use the falling hand method and over the last 2 years have used a little more force in the strikes as opposed to just letting it fall anymore.

I have a sand bag now and incorporate stance training with the practice now. Shifting from bow to horse to bow as I strike.

I use dit da jow, and I massage with frequency. I have no callouses and I do not have any joint pain, my hands are as buttery as any office worker out there :D

I don't think that I or my sifu who taught me this experiences any adverse effects to it. I certainly have realized the benefits of the training. It has helped me understand alignment in striking and has really helped with being able to withstand the blowback force that is imminent when you strike.

Besides this training, I also work Kiu Sao training with and Iron pole. I use brick toss and grab, sam sing on the same pole and on a tree (the tree is more forgiving.

I roll a staff on my shins to help toughen those puppies up and also do kicks to the pole and tree.

Dit Da jow, Hot water swirling, and plenty of massage will break up any and all hematomas that are occuring from the practice and actually, the healing practice takes more time on the clock than the actual striking exercises.

I do use the Cranes head strikes to the bag, full finger tip strikes and have been doing so since I began. I suffer no ill effects to my vision and it has been about 8 years. The bag slapping is something that I do with regularity and the pole and tree work or more recent. If I could afford a decent mook jong I would probably use that instead of the tree.

All, I'm saying is that if you approach it with caution and restraint, you can benefit in your martial skills from this practice.

cheers

[Gold Horse Dragon]

In our system (Southern Sil Lum Black Tiger), it is recommended to use soya beans when progressing after mung beans, then steel shot almost 1/4 inch when progressing from SB's. Sand is not recommended as it compacts very easily and does not mold to the hand. This results in not all areas of the hand being trained. There is a very specific training regimen. It is not recommended to put force into any IP bag strike at any point in the training. Force=lack of internal energy flowing through the striking hand. The lack of flow can result in stuck and stagnant chi which is detrimental. Also, the force can transmit back up the arm and hit the tensed area resulting in injury to tissues and possibly the heart and lungs. Striking with the finger tips is okay as long as you do not go beyond your capability at that point in your training and cause damage to the nerve endings at the tips of the fingers. As well, it is not recommended to roll things along one's shin or forearms as this can result in damge to the nerves along the radius and dorsum of the wrist depending on the position of the arm in the roll. I know there are some schools that do this but not in Sil Lum Black Tiger. Hitting the shin on hard substances can also result in damage over time, but you can train the shin similar to the IP method and progress slowly and safely.

GHD

[David Jamieson]

The force i am using to strike is not a "driving" or a deliberate intensified strike, it is derived from only alignment and focus.

I don't want to totally desensitize, but i do want to ease the neuralgia that occurs naturally when striking. A strike hurts the striker too if not done properly. There are also exercises I do for wrists and arms that help with overall strength of the joints and tendons.

From this practice, I have almost completely removed any tension from my strikes and can fluidly and quite loosely issue pretty good power.

I imagine it will only get better with time and practice as anything does.

For kicking on solid items, I started by wrapping a futon around the pole. After a while, i used thick felt blankets. After a while of that, I only had one blanket. The Iron pole will always win doesn't matter what level of skill you are :D So, caution and common sense really help in these types of exercises. It is very easy to incur damage so take it easy whatever you do and make your increments of change very small all the way up.

cheers

[Gold Horse Dragon]

The mung bean does nothing to cool the striking tissues), unless you drink a tea made from it. In fact, you do not want to cool your skin but to heat it everso slightly while reducing inflamation and this is part of what the dit da jow does. BBs are not very good to train with as they are usually coated or made of copper. They are also too small...as I said the training requirements are very specific. You switch from mung to soya as the soya is larger and more hard and this helps to prepare you for the steel shot.

In Southern Sil Lum Black Tiger, we do not train (shins) this way (rolling shins, kicking poles etc.) at all, for the reasons I mentioned before, yet we have no problem with those who have trainied Mui Thai like by kicking poles, trees, rolled their shins...in fact we have techniques that the most such trained shins would not stand up to. In most fights, a person can clash shins and keep on going to end the altercation. I knew a person who had very hard shins and when clashed against anothers shin, the other person could still keep going and fighting...moral of this...hard shins will not end a fight. We do have Iron Body training that does include the legs and this suffices as far as the shins are concerned...but as I said, we do not recommend rolling the shins or kicking poles.

GHD

[Vash]

Originally posted by Vash
I've got the address for some pretty good Jow . . . I'll post it tomorrow.

Not exactly tomorrow, but

www.ditdajows.com

http://www.yaukungmun.com.au/Dit%20Dar.htm

That should be a good start.

[Lowlynobody]

I can vouch for the Yau Kung Mun jow. I've been using it with iron palm training for 2 years now and it certainly brings out brusing very quickly and speeds up the healing process. Great stuff.

[GeneChing]

But we do carry an iron herb soak (http://store.yahoo.com/martialartsmart/2041.html). Check it out.

[Meat Shake]

Just curious, but do any of you guys roll the iron bar down your forearms as well? Forearm knocking is a given....

This thread has shaped up to be a very good read thus far.

[Dale Dugas]

I use a galvinized steel pipe about 2" in diameter and I have put steel shot into it. I then roll that over my forearm on all surfaces including the radius side which is very tender at first, as well as the underside of the forearm as well as the top.

I started out with small number of reps, lots of jow before and after along with massage. Add this to a Three Star routine and you will be able to withstand and give out great punishment with your lower arms strikes/blocks. I added a rep per week to slowly condition the bones to take the abuse.

Peace,

Dale

[blooming lotus]

figure this...qi is lifeforce right..so being the level of concious qi and the need to concentrate and conrtol it in any hard qigong branch..why would you think that when cultivating at full, you should receive any ailent or ill health ..that is of course until you stop or comprimise.

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Chi is a force that can be good, bad or indifferent. When chi gets stuck, stagnant, excessive or deficient...it will have negative consequences on the body, mind and spirit. Also, many who control chi can also have negative consequences.

GHD

[blooming lotus]

exactly....negotiable longevity is a virtue (for want of better words) of jhana. ( levels of altered consciouness)........so how's your vigilence? ;)

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Man, you should stop posting when you are high.

GHD

[TenTigers]

Dale-do NOT use galvanized steel for training. There is a chemical compond used in the galvanizing process that is dangerous to absorb into the skin. I am not sure of what, but you should look into it before proceeding.

[Dale Dugas]

I have it covered brother, but thanks for the heads up anyway. I wrapped the pipe in duct tape. No contact with the steel. I have a kung fu brother who uses logs and rolls them on his arms. His arms are like diamonds from that. Though he takes internal dit da pills as well as using loads of jow for that.

Thanks again.

Happy New Year to you and yours!

In Boston,

Dale Dugas

[Ging Mo Fighter]

we use metal bars for palm strikes, and forearm work

and metal blocks (with some kind of bean bags in them) for downward hammerfist strikes (gow choy)

dont know what types of beans they are

from memory the tit dar jowl we use is very good when i used it

it never "really" did anything

however after a few months, my hands and arms really became as impervious to pain, and strong beyond my wildest expectations

- feelgood story of the year

:cool:

[GeneChing]

We used to do that on our forearms and shins. We'd roll it on our forearms in horse stance, then pop it across to a partner using our elbows, tossing it back and forth. The shin thing we would do alone, just siting on the floor with our legs stretched out. We used a steel bar that was brown from oxidation.

[stimulant]

bakc in my thai boxing days I had a re-inforced carbord tibe that was 4 inches in diameter, 1 inch thick, with metal inserts on the inside to make it very strong....this thing was stronger than a baseball bat! to conditon the shin I used to put it on the floor, kneel my shins on it and roll forwards and backwards....so painfull at firts, but I got used to it and it gave me shins of steel! Havent got the tube anymore and havent done that in a few years so my shins are just 'ok' now and not as great as they once were.

My Shifu (Lu Jun Hai, heir to Mizong Quan and Qing-Ping Jian) knows Iron palm and his father was famous for it...but as far as i know he never uses DDJ. I'll ask him.

We dont use it on our foreaam conditioning either...but ours is done muscle to muslce not bone to bone so there is no real need. I dont know if Lu Shifu ever did conditioning on his bones...but his arms are like diamon, yet they are slender.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by stimulant
We dont use it on our foreaam conditioning either...but ours is done muscle to muslce not bone to bone so there is no real need.

What happens if you ever get hit bone-on-bone in a fight? Wouldn't you get hurt since there's no conditioning there?

[stimulant]

I've wondered the same thing....

but my shifus arms (bones and muscles) are like iron....so it obviously works for him! people who do weight training getting strong bones from the tendons place stress on the bone when the weight is lifted....possibly something similar places on conditoning when it is muscle to muscle.

interestingly we do have top of foot to top of foot conditioning (OUCH!) and heel to heel. Is just that the arms seem to be limited to muscle for now (been training 4.5 years in this style so far).

He also tells us to practise our arm conditioning on trees if we dont have a partner.