Best weight lifting methods for wing chun?

[Brithlor]

Just curious if anyone knows of specific weight lifting methods to increase speed and short range power and any other attributes advantages to Wing Chun?

I read someone say something about slow twitch muscles and fast twitch muscles... they said if you use your weights to train the slow twitch muscles that it will SLOW down your movments... is that true? Obviously the opposite for the fast twitch muscles.

Anyone know how to train with weights to increase the fast twitch muscles without slowing you down..?

I'm mainly just doing roll punches while holding 15 pound weights right now...

Thanks for the imput :-D.

[Toby]

I made some slow/fast twitch comments recently. Training slow twitch fibers (not muscles, but fibers within the muscle) will improve their performance, but it won't make them slower.

Anyway, fast twitch exercises? Explosive strength is what you want. Olympic lifting, powerlifting, plyometrics, sprints, interval bag training, etc.

Don't do air punches with weights - bad for your joints. Increases the potential for hyperextension injury.

If I was to recommend exercises for WC, I wouldn't be thinking arms, anyway. Think full body exercises (like powerlifts and olympic lifts) and especially abdominal/oblique muscles ;)

Try cross-posting in the training forum. There's a few other guys in there who'll otherwise miss your post.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by Brithlor
Just curious if anyone knows of specific weight lifting methods to increase speed and short range power and any other attributes advantages to Wing Chun?

I don't think above average speed is necessary for Wing Chun, and I don't think weight training is the answer for developing Wing Chun power. But, I have a few comments about some common misconceptions.


I read someone say something about slow twitch muscles and fast twitch muscles... they said if you use your weights to train the slow twitch muscles that it will SLOW down your movments... is that true? Obviously the opposite for the fast twitch muscles.

No, it isn't necessarily true. There are three types of skeletal muscle fibers: Slow oxidative (SO) fibers, Fast Oxidative-Glycolytic (FOG) fibers, and Fast Glycolytic (FG) fibers. Weight training, depending on how it's done, can increase the function of certain of these fibers. The relative ratio of fast-twitch and slow-twitch fibers in each muscle is genetically determined. However, the characteristics of those muscle fibers present can change to a certain extent with various types of exercise.

For increasing speed and power, you would want to do exercises that require great strength for short periods of time in order to increase the size and strength of fast glycolytic fibers.

One result of this is the muscle enlargement (hypertrophy) seen in body builders. So you must consider whether the added muscle mass would be good or bad for your Wing Chun, regardless of its effect on overall speed and power. Speed and power is great. You see it in a lot of sports, but in MA, time in training the art is most important and is not related to only speed and power.


Anyone know how to train with weights to increase the fast twitch muscles without slowing you down..?

Yeah, as I said above. Rapid, intense movements of short duration with weights. But training all your muscle, not externally strengthening it is the real key to Wing Chun.

Regards,

[John D]

Weight training has some benefits for both endurance muscles (slow twitch) and fast twitch muscle building. Dumbbell weight training can build stablizing muscles/tendons around joints. The only real problem with weight training is that you can get a fast muscle contraction but moving the weights can be slow. This slowness can be detrimental to your speed. You will need to complement moderate weight training with speed drills to keep your hand and leg speed.

Some WC people teach the kwan with a heavier pole and then use a slightly lighter kwan every other practice to keep up their weapon speed. IMO, the WC kwan and the WC short swords are the best weight training methods.

Regards,
John D.

[Ernie]

wow
can't add much except for a different view , '' the advice from others was very well put '''

1. weight train for general health , not just sport specific , you will be better balance and still get most of the benefits mentioned

2. short explosive actions also have a different effect beyond , muscle building , thy pump up the signal from the mind to the muscle , the firing sequence is improved .

3. don't forget body builders train the muscle to the point of complete fatigue , this is not the type of thought process a martial artist want to engrain , so don't forget to stretch and work your sport specific action with proper intent and balance , don't fall for the power hungry trap , your wing chun will appear to be good to the out sider but your skill will say stagnate , I see this happen with athletes that learn wing chun , they have a fast initial growth spurt , since they have good attributes but then the hit the wall were they have let the ego go and some just seem to stay stuck in that area .

I have been hitting the weights longer then I have been doing wing chun , 4 to 5 times a week and have never had one effect the performance of the other beyond days when I'm really sore my feel and timing will be sluggish .

[Toby]

John W and Ernie mentioned bodybuilding. I don't lift weights to bodybuild. There are other methods of weightlifting than bodybuilding. IMHO, bodybuilding is the least functional method of weightlifting. It's about looks, not performance. Wing chun's about performance, so why not choose a weightlifting method that reflects that. That's why I mentioned olympic lifting and powerlifting. Neither will make you look like Arnie, both will help you develop the sort of attributes you're looking for. Excellent points mentioned by everyone.

[Ernie]

toby
i think i said
[[3. don't forget body builders train the muscle to the point of complete fatigue , this is not the type of thought process a martial artist want to engrain ]]]


if i'm not mistaken.

[Brithlor]

Thanks everyone! Your comments have been very helpful.

However, I was really hoping I could get some more specific techniques to develop short range "explosive" wing chun power.

I know someone said to do rapid movements with lighter weights but that still isn't too specific.

I'm not into body building, I'm just doing it for over all fitness that WON'T slow down or compromize my wing chun. Prefferably I want to do to exercizes that will improve my wing chun.

Please continue with all the insightful posts, I really appreciate it :).

BTW, When I practice doing roll punches with weigths I do them REALLY slowly so that I don't injure my joints... but I also practice tons of roll punches and double punches without weights... Probably atleast 3 times more without weights. Is that enough "speed" training to reverse the effects of slow weight training?

[Brithlor]

Incase anyone is wondering what exactly I'm doing with the weights...

I use 15 pound weights vertically while doing role punches to increase the speed and powering the "scooping" motion of the arm.

I do the same on my back to help train the muscles used to push the arm out when striking, since the weight is going down.

Then I do the same thing, but bending over so that I'm punching towards the ground to train for the pulling back part of the punch...

So far in just a few weeks of doing that my punches seem more relaxed and quick, but not really any stronger. But I'm not sure if this could damage them in some way..?

Can anyone tell me if that kind of training is logical or not? It might sound kind of silly, but it SEEMS like it would be smart to use the weights from different postions since the force of the punch is going foward, and if you only do standing roll punches you're only strenghtening the motion for cycling the punches...

Someone please tell me if there is reason to my madness :).

[Toby]

Ernie,

It's all good. I wasn't criticising you guys, just making sure that Brithlor realised there are other methods of weighlifting. I didn't think from your posts that you guys did bodybuilding. Sorry to offend you.


Brithlor,

You're thinking is fine. However, doing 100's (or dozens) of punches with light weights will train your endurance and not strength/speed at all.

My preferences? Everyone's favourite - benchpress. Heavy weights (close to your 1 rep max - like 80% and up), low reps (1-5), moderate sets (3-5). Don't go to failure. Same muscles targeted as you are doing with weighted roll punches on your back - chest, shoulder, lats, triceps, abdominal wall. Weighted pullups - same sets/reps. Targets almost all of your upper back, biceps, forearms, shoulders. Deadlifts - targets lower back, legs, abs, core, upper back, forearms, shoulders. Squats - targets legs, lower back, abs, core, traps. Upright (or seated) rows - whole back, biceps, forearms.

Don't always go heavy. You have to cycle lighter weights sometimes. Concentrate on form, be very careful as you're learning. Injury potential is high, especially with squats and deadlifts if you do it wrong.

I'm not good with olympic lifts - never learnt them. Lots of benefits from those, though. You'll need a coach to learn them.

Abs is a whole subject by itself. Very important to have strong abs. You want to strengthen your abdominal muscle (for crunching movements) and your obliques (for rotational movements). Check out:
http://www.t-mag.com/html/body_96ab.html
Maybe choose full contact twists and the evil wheel. Same thing, maximum effort, low reps, low to moderate sets.

[Brithlor]

One question...

A few years ago I suddenly got involved with more physical stuff (when I first started martial arts) and apparently from the muscle shifting I got some stretch marks on my back... I know of a Xyingi guy and the same thing happened to him. Finally they're disapearing but I don't want the same thing to happen if I suddenly get invovled with more intense weights...

Anyone know how to prevent that?

[Stevo]

Originally posted by Brithlor
One question...

A few years ago I suddenly got involved with more physical stuff (when I first started martial arts) and apparently from the muscle shifting I got some stretch marks on my back... I know of a Xyingi guy and the same thing happened to him. Finally they're disapearing but I don't want the same thing to happen if I suddenly get invovled with more intense weights...

Anyone know how to prevent that?

Try anti-stretch cream.

Some other ways to develop the right muscles: push-ups on fists and with open hands stretched out, in, forwards and backwards for triceps Crunches/supported situps for abdominals. Other than that the thighs would be the most important to develop - try plyometrics. But as others have said, Wing Chun will develop what you need for Wing Chun. Structure will give you power without needing great muscle power.

Stevo

[Toby]

My wife uses all sorts of creams to try to stop it during pregnancy. Sometimes young girls get it when they start to develop curves. Guys (and girls) get it when they put on a lot of weight (or size) in a short amount of time. I wouldn't think you'd get it from muscle shifting (whatever that is) but you might from muscle size increasing.

To prevent it (or minimise it), do what I said and lift for strength, not size. Strength training won't make you big per se. Look at olympic weight lifters and world ranked powerlifters. Especially in the lighter weight classes, they are often relatively scrawny looking. However, these guys will lift a whole lot more than a bodybuilder could lift. The key is low reps and low total volume with max effort and not to go to failure. Like Ernie said, a lot of strength is training the mind-body connection. Strength training increases the neurological efficiency. We don't use much of our potential strength due to our body telling us we can't, so we're trying to make more use by training the body to increase its self-imposed limits. Like the urban legends where you hear of mothers lifting cars off their children and stuff - superhuman strength when really they're using 100% of their strength potential under extraordinary circumstances.

[anerlich]

As Stevo mentioned, plyometrics will give you explosive power. As simple web search will find plenty of sites. Try them with medicine balls, similar to ...

a boxer's workout.

You could do worse than to train like a boxer. And if you want explosive power, look at how sprinters, jumpers and throwing athletes train. There are few more explosive humans on the planet.

[John Weiland]

A couple of points. Doing high reps with light weights will build endurance, not speed. I haven't decided whether endurance is less desirable than speed or speed more desirable. It depends.

Always do your speed exercise first, i.e. speed bag, Chi Sao, sparring, and sets, before you do resistance exercise of whatever type you settle on.

In boxing, we talk about "ropes and chains." You want "ropy" muscles, not big "chains," which slow you down. Speed work first, then heavy bag as another example.

Toby's, Anerlich's, and Ernie's suggestions sound useful IMO.

Regards,

[Brithlor]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

I'm still a bit confused though... what exactly *are* the speed training exercizes everyone is speaking of?

[Toby]

Not so much specific exercises. More a way of exercising. As several of us said, plyometrics is one method for speed. As Anerlich said, search google. Here's a couple of plyometric exercises that will help your arms, shoulders, chest.

(i) I used to lie on my back with an 8kg medicine ball. I'd throw it up as high as possible (without hitting the roof). At the beginning of my 80-100 reps, it'd be just below the roof. At the end of the set, about 6' high. As soon as I'd catch it, I'd explosively throw it again i.e. minimising the time I held it. Be careful to control the ball. Don't drop it on your nuts.

(ii) Very fast pushups, to the point of lifting (or more like "jumping", "springing") your hands off the ground after you come up. You can also clap between pushups, military style, to show yourself you're springing up high enough.

The basic philosophy behind plyometrics AFAIK (I know almost nothing about them) is that you should perform an explosive concentric motion after a forced (by gravity or momentum) eccentric motion. So with the medicine ball, I'm exploding it up in the air after trying to catch it in one smooth (but fast) motion. With the pushups, you're lowering fast, then exploding upwards to the point of "bouncing" into the air.

Plyometrics are tough on your body. Do the appropriate research first. You should also have a fair bit of strength and overall fitness before starting them.

The other ideas are to do explosive full body exercises. These are more effective than isolation (like biceps curls, etc). So research powerlifting and olympic lifting. Lots of material out there.

[sticky fingers]

I've been doing clapping pushups for a while now and I believe they have helped a lot in my hand speed and short power, without putting on much, if any, muscle mass.
Just remember to keep the elbows in, as you do in WC.

I quit doing heavy bench presses because they made me stiff and slow in chisau. And I couldn't get my elbows in as far due to the bigger pecs.

At the moment I am trying out the Matrix principle on bench. Has anyone else tried it?

[Toby]

Originally posted by sticky fingers
quit doing heavy bench presses because they made me stiff and slow in chisau. And I couldn't get my elbows in as far due to the bigger pecs.
Funny, it doesn't affect my chi sau at all. No stiffness, no soreness. In fact, I have better endurance than anyone I've rolled with, although I've always had a propensity towards endurance. I guess I am doing PTP, so that is easier on your body. I used to do a hypertrophic workout and get stiff and sore. Stopped soon after starting WC, though. Although I do have some elbow problems like you.

<edit - fixed bold tag/>

[sticky fingers]

yes, I meant to say that my bench sets were geared for a hypertrophic workout. I dont dare to lift too close to 1RM becasue I train by myself in the backyard. I wouldnt be discovered for days if I got stuck.

[Toby]

Lol! I know what you mean. I've only failed a few before in about 6 years of lifting, but it sucks. Nowadays I kind of know if I'm going to fail the next rep, so I don't often attempt it. I've got a power rack, though, with spotter bars that are lower than my chest, but not lower than my neck, so I can just roll the bar over my chest down to my neck and slide out from underneath. My old gym had rack pins that were just above chest height as well as the normal rack pins, so as a last effort you could throw the bar onto the low pins.

That's why I view the bench as the king of lifts. It's the only one that is dangerous if you fail. A good challenge of the body and mind.

[foolinthedeck]

However, I was really hoping I could get some more specific techniques to develop short range "explosive" wing chun power

siu lim tao...

its makes us laugh, but you only see it after a lot of mindful expereince so thats ok.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Toby
Lol! I know what you mean. I've only failed a few before in about 6 years of lifting, but it sucks. Nowadays I kind of know if I'm going to fail the next rep, so I don't often attempt it. I've got a power rack, though, with spotter bars that are lower than my chest, but not lower than my neck, so I can just roll the bar over my chest down to my neck and slide out from underneath. My old gym had rack pins that were just above chest height as well as the normal rack pins, so as a last effort you could throw the bar onto the low pins.

That's why I view the bench as the king of lifts. It's the only one that is dangerous if you fail. A good challenge of the body and mind.

The squat and the deadlift are both dangerous. I consider those two king moreso than the bench, as they work more muscle groups than the bench. The deadlift is the ultimate compund lift.

[SevenStar]

As for the plyometrics, don't do them anymore than about twice a week or so.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by John Weiland


One result of this is the muscle enlargement (hypertrophy) seen in body builders. So you must consider whether the added muscle mass would be good or bad for your Wing Chun, regardless of its effect on overall speed and power. Speed and power is great. You see it in a lot of sports, but in MA, time in training the art is most important and is not related to only speed and power.


strength training can be done without adding mass.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by SevenStar


strength training can be done without adding mass.
LOL! Really?

[SevenStar]

Definitely. It's neurological training. Very high weight, very low rep, few sets. You do too few sets and reps to build size. Power output is really nothing more than a hard muscular contraction - the stronger the contraction, the higher the output. I could explain it better, but it's after 3am.

basically, there are three types of weight training: endurance, size and power.

power training does not necessarily put size on you.

[Ng Mui]

The traditional push up and sit up, are far better than weights.

They build the strength in the practioner, without slowing him down with bulky, large, just for show mucsles.

Have you ever seen a bodybuilder fight? It is quite entertaining. They lack the basic range of motion we all take for granted.

Weights are usefull if done in moderation.

[SevenStar]

wrong. pushups are an endurance exercise. The build muscle endurance. They only build strength up to a point. Don't believe me? I bench 275. If you only do pushups, get on a bench and try it... you can't do it.

I've seen plenty of bodybuilders kick butt in a fight. There's a HUGE flaw in what you are saying... most bodybuilders don't do MA. consequently, they aren't trained to fight. find one that is though, and that's not a problem.

As I stated in the above post, strength training can be done without gaining mass. That is IMO, WAY better than only doing pushups. That said, do pushups as well, but don't fool yourself into thinking pushups alone will continually make you stronger.

[SevenStar]

About bodybuilders and flexibility - it's a myth. Once again, you have a HUGE flaw. You are taking into account body builder who don't have a regular stretching regimen that's worth anything. Anyone who doesn't stretch will be stiff, not just those guys. I've seen body builders who can do the splits.

[yuanfen]

A voice from the wing chun wilderness- which is ok.



However, I was really hoping I could get some more specific techniques to develop short range "explosive" wing chun power


((True wing chun explosiveness is different from what is meant by explosveness in noxing or football. Wing chun explosiveness is not a technique. It involves wing chun specific coordination and knowing the ground path))


About bodybuilders and flexibility - it's a myth.

((Yes it is a myth))

Once again, you have a HUGE flaw. You are taking into account body builder who don't have a regular stretching regimen that's worth anything. Anyone who doesn't stretch will be stiff, not just those guys. I've seen body builders who can do the splits.

((Best stretching is action specific. Wing chun has built in flexibility.
Doing a split has little relevance to wing chun)) joy((Up the wing chun mountain))

[SevenStar]

Every time I re-read that post, I find something that's wrong, which is sad considering your post was only 6 lines long.

The "for show" muscles you mentioned refer to body building only - not powerlifting. Powerlifters have some of the most explosive legs on this planet. Body builders isolate muscle groups, as opposed do doing compound exercises and utilizing several muscles in unison.

Please, read a book or something - it seems like some of you are believing things that have been known to be wrong for the past 23 years...

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by yuanfen

((Best stretching is action specific. Wing chun has built in flexibility.
Doing a split has little relevance to wing chun))

Agreed. Doing a split has little relevance to any MA really. It just illustrates the point that a bodybuiler isn't stiff merely because he's a bodybuilder.

[sticky fingers]

Originally posted by Ng Mui

They build the strength in the practioner, without slowing him down with bulky, large, just for show mucsles.

Have you ever seen a bodybuilder fight? It is quite entertaining. They lack the basic range of motion we all take for granted.



yes, take for examples Mark Coleman or Ken Shamrock. They have muscular physiques but I certainly don't think their muscles are just for show. And their 'limited' range of motion is enough to take you out.

If you're talking big muscleheads fighting with wing chun, well I haven't seen any...