Jack of all trades, master of none?

[keef321]

I was doing 1 step with my sifu today which eventually moved into semi-free step and at one point my sifu broke out onto me in classical Wing Chun chain punches. I blocked as good as I could and entered trapping range, which then using Wing Chun he continued to wipe the floor with me, in a nice manner of course ;-)

The point he made was that if you come up against some-one whom does Wing chun then dont play at there game as they specialise on close quarter much the same as you would not try to out box a good boxer. So all in all a good point to make. I asked him what was the range for mantis, he stated all ranges although certain practioners may favour a range more than others.

It made me think of the question though "Is praying mantis, jack of all trades, master of none". One could look at it and think, dont play with a wing chun guy at his trapping range, a boxer at boxing range, a mantis at mmmmmm which range ;-)

So there could be good and bad points to this, let the views flow :-)

Keef

[B.Tunks]

I think we could use another work related saying here
'a poor workman always blames his tools'

just jokes mate.

I dont think mantis is jack of all trades master of none.

[mantis108]

With all due respects, my friend, I think the problem is not that mantis is Jack of all trades, master of none. I believe the problem is in the platform of delivery. The problem is not limited to mantis only. It is wide spread in the CMA community.

As you pointed out you were doing a one-step, then semi-free step, further into "wipe the floor with you". During this time your Sifu shifted into Wing Chun type of moves. I presume and believe this happens because you have expectations of a technique drill and not aware that it was escalating from one thing to another. Personally, I think your Sifu is quite a smart teacher in doing this because in really physical confrontation it is similar to that. You might start from a verbal confrontation and then some shoving and all of a sudden a full physical assault. You also do not have the indication of what is coming at you - style or no style - until it hits you. So changing onto some non familiar terms is a good way to exercise awareness, which is half the battle won.

Wing Chun uses Chi Sao as the delivery platform and work tirelessly at that. So that refine their techniques constantly with that specific range and possibly more. I think we need to ask ourselves whether such platform exsits in our branches of mantis. I am talking about drills that allows mantis techniques flow out liberally.

I believe you are aware now that to begin with one-step, as numerous of CMA kwoon are doing, might not be the best way to learn the flow to apply the vast mentis arsenal. One-step used to serve a purpose but now in the wake of combative sports and in a world of MMA it is serving more harm that good for CMA. I think the logical step is to refocus the training into flow drills for mantis. I think in there you will find the niche of Mantis. :)

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Tieh]

I was doing 1 step with my sifu today which eventually moved into semi-free step and at one point my sifu broke out onto me in classical Wing Chun chain punches.

:confused:

Sorry guys, can anybody please explain to me what is meant by one step and semi free step drills. As a non native english speaker unfortunately I don' t understand.

Best Regards

[keef321]

Please note that I was not posting this in a negative way, just mearly thought it could be a good discussion about how Mantis works at many ranges etc

When I stated "One could look at it and think, dont play with a wing chun guy at his trapping range, a boxer at boxing range, a mantis at mmmmmm which range ;-)" I was potraying mantis in a positive manner, as in it is good that we train in lots of ranges.

Im sorry if it came over wrong, it is sometimes hard to get things across in writting over the internet.

Mantis108, I agree with you that what my sifu did was indeed a good thing to do by bringing me out of my comfort zone as such.

Keef

[BeiTangLang]

Maybe I am missing the question a bit, but there is medium & long range as well as close range yes? Mantis trains all of these.
Best Wishes,
BTL

[Skarbromantis]

I touch hands with a wing chun guy every week, no problems yet, in any range.

Skard1

[Meat Shake]

sc_guy - could you give a brief explanation of "wrapping" a punch please?
Thanks,
Meat Shake



From my experience, mantis practitioners tend to be more "middle" range fighters, switching from close to mid range.

[KickingMantis]

all styles have methods by which its students should be mastering in order to fight close, middle and longe range. To say that a particular style only fight inside or outside...is a person that does not understand the martial arts or" the stye" they are studying.

I study mantis and i know that mantis is a great system and most people tend to think its primarily a medium to close range system, mantis is a complete system and the serious student should be able to fight inside, outside, close, medium and long, becuase it contains techniques that are short, medium and long.

You learn to use the appropriate technique and principle when the time and opportunity is right in a conflict. We often characterize a style like we characterize and stereotype people; blacks are like this, asians are like this and whites or latinos are like this. The FACT is maybe the particular asian, blk, white or latino that you met maybe like that, just as most of the people in Tae Kwon Do that you met may do a lot of long range kicks because that is their focus.

But what happens when you meet a TKD student who focus on the hand techniques of Tae Kwon Do and you have already have a preconceived idea in your mind when u spar or fight with him/her that this is going to be a long range competitor and you go for midrange and short techniques an find that this is where their strength lies and you underestimate your opponent.

Knowing true martial arts and understanding your system is when you realize to flow, yield, reirect and be free. This can be done with any system and you dont have to be JKD. A serious martial artist should be able to effectively use short, medium and long range techniques in their art and be able to move inside and outside equally at ease. This is when u have mastered what you are doing.

Stereotyping styles and people in various arts will lead you to a dead end and will stunt your growth even in your own style.

[Vash]

KickingMantis has made the correct his b!tch.

[Meat Shake]

To assume and generalize is well... generally ignorant.
;)

Its also not safe to assume that your TKD practitioner doesnt know BJJ.
But for styles being "multi faceted"... All styles should have techniques for all ranges, but most focus on a particular range.
You arent going to see an SC guy throwing head level roundhouses, unless they studied another style. Then it isnt the SC they are using, but another style. You wont see a TKD student throw somebody. Its just not part of their curriculum. And the TKD guy you stated that throws punches, it should be expected, as TKD is a punch/kick style. What shouldnt be expected is a TKD student that will want to fight in a standing clinch, throwing knees and short quarter punches.
You wont expect a mantis practitioner to go for the shoot.
You wont expect a BJJ practitioner to stand and box it out.
Unless they have cross trained.
Its ignorant to assume anything about your opponent, lest the assumption be that your opponent is stronger, faster, and better than you.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Nah, the only assumption I make is that they are standing in my spot.

[Meat Shake]

Heh...
I like that.
:)

[KickingMantis]

Meatshake,

You wont see a TKD student throw somebody. Its just not part of their curriculum. And the TKD guy you stated that throws punches, it should be expected, as TKD is a punch/kick style. What shouldnt be expected is a TKD student that will want to fight in a standing clinch, throwing knees and short quarter punches.
You wont expect a mantis practitioner to go for the shoot.
You wont expect a BJJ practitioner to stand and box it out.
Unless they have cross trained.

Just because TKD is a kick and punch style are u assuming they dont have techniques in their system that allow the martial artist to throw their opponent?

I understand all styles have a "focus" but if they are a complete art, they have techniques or principles to teach their students to deal with various and diverse situations. whether it be throws, locks, takedowns or other. maybe they dont have a shoot kick but they teach you how to deal with one, counter it and execute a version that they feel is better or improved.

Where did the SHOOT kick come from? You think its relatively new? Where did JKD come from? They are compliations or variations of things that exist already....How many different ways can you kick, punch, throw, takedown. Most styles are more similiar than they are different.

[Meat Shake]

"I understand all styles have a "focus" but if they are a complete art, they have techniques or principles to teach their students to deal with various and diverse situations"

Well, in this case, until the recent boom in BJJ, and the subsequent losses of many strikers in the early UFC's there were no complete arts. Before BJJ exploded onto the UFC, no one really trained against the shoot, its not part of many styles. Ground fighting is incorporated to VERY FEW styles. without ground fighting, is your style "incomplete"? Yes. But in this case, every style is incomplete, thus cross training and incoporation of technique is the only way to have a "full system".

"How many different ways can you kick, punch, throw, takedown. Most styles are more similiar than they are different."

Youd be surprised, but i get the jist of what you say here. Basics as basics, and good basics should transcend stylistic boundaries.

[GOT'EM]

I don't think you necessarily have to do a lot of groundfighting to be complete.But if you have a way of defending or to counter against the groundfighter,then I feel that you can consider your art to be complete.The question was about wing chun.Wing chun fights at close range.In order to do that they practice at close range.That's why they are good.If they spent their time doing groundfighting then they would'nt be that good at close range.They have ways to defeat grapplers and long range fighters.But they do it using wing chun,not switching to chang chuan or bjj.You have to look at what your art(whatever art it is) and find those answers.A lot of the forms in mantis can help you find what to use in certain situations.They offer solutions using mantis techniques and principles,not do what the other guy is doing.Kicking mantis explained this very well earlier.If your answer is "do everything to defeat everything"(especially if it's popular at the time) then you truly are a jack of trades,master of nothing.

[SevenStar]

in the grand scheme of things, does it matter? If I can hold my own in a fight, I really don't NEED to be a master. As long as I have a solid foundation and obvious understanding of what I do, mastering a single style in itself is not a necessity. That said, most MA will indeed be a master of something - not a style necessarily, but a technique. they have that one technique that they can perform from any angle, off any feed, etc.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KickingMantis
You wont see a TKD student throw somebody. Its just not part of their curriculum. And the TKD guy you stated that throws punches, it should be expected, as TKD is a punch/kick style. What shouldnt be expected is a TKD student that will want to fight in a standing clinch, throwing knees and short quarter punches.

Not true. Style is an individual thing. I've got a TKD acquaintance who loves to hip throw - it's one of his favorite techniques. Last year, he won a local continuous sparring tourney, and won by using his hip throw.

[/B]

[KickingMantis]

Meat Shake. u said....

" Well, in this case, until the recent boom in BJJ, and the subsequent losses of many strikers in the early UFC's there were no complete arts. Before BJJ exploded onto the UFC, no one really trained against the shoot, its not part of many styles. Ground fighting is incorporated to VERY FEW styles. without ground fighting, is your style "incomplete"? Yes. But in this case, every style is incomplete, thus cross training and incoporation of technique is the only way to have a "full system".

Meat shake the reason so many people cross train, especially in the USA is because they are inpatient, unloyal, undisciplined and in a hurry to achieve something in a another style that they dont want to wait to learn in their own.

Now, for the serious martial arts student i can understand that they may want to learn something they think their style may lack, in my opinion MEATSHAKE, this is a big misconception.

If you stick around long enough in a particular style and be willing to learn the basics and master the basics...you will understand your style and see that it has more of what u need than less.

Most people that go from school to school in order to learn the best of them all, know nothing at all and couldnt make it through a 3 min round of sparring or touch hands let alone a 30 min workout of basic calistetheics. The ones i have seem come in and say i have a black belt in this, that and the other and pop in to attain another, can barely kick or punch correctly.

If you are serious in the martial arts u will build a firm foundation in ONE STYLE. And no it is not required that you master it. but when the basics are good and you have dedicated enough time in one system, the next teacher you go to can tell that you paid you paid your dues and worked hard and will be more willing to teach you the ESSENCE . than a student moving around from SCHOOL to SCHOOL, thinking they are learning all they need to know about the style in one year, that student hasnt even touched the surface of the art.

A bag of tricks to me is this...Aikido for a year, Tae Kwon Do for a year, BJJ for a year, Wing Chun for a year and etc., U have gained one thing......learned the bare basics of of many things and thats it. You have no idea of the true essences of any of those styles. Because most instructors, traditionalist anyways, are not gonna teach a guy off the street the essence of their system in a year or two.

What you have is four-five different methods of how to attack and defend that you really dont understand any of them thoroughly.

Im sure good Tae Kwon Do has ways to defend themselves on the ground just as many other styles.....the thing is very few students stay around long enough to learn it. So they leave with the idea of" oh i got my black belt but i dont really know this or that." its not the style its the person.

if you go to high school and u leave at grade 10 or 11, the reason u didnt learn chemistry II or III is becasue u didnt stay around long enough to finish the curriculum. Not because the school doesnt offer it.

[Vash]

This kind of relates to a conversation Yenhoi and myself were having in the Jeet Kune Do forum, the JKD = Art thread in particular (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27378) .

Your argument seems to hearken to the need of a "purity" in training, that is, the study of one art at the ignorance of others.

Not dissing you, just trying to understand where you're coming from.

[KickingMantis]

most styles are not "pure" they all have borrowed from each other in order to make them what they are. I think that most arts are complete in the sense that historically old masters have did the majority of the work for us. they have proven their theories and techniques to work in particular situations if applied correctly and if it cant be applied one way you go with the flow and set the opponent up for another technique or theory/principle that may work in a situation.

Hell..even mantis is not a "pure" system. But the work has been done for us. If you are even a basic student and have learned bung bo then you know that bung bo contains the 12 basic key word formulas, as well as hard and soft techniques and a few other things...if you take just that alone, there is kicking, punching, Chin-Na, and Take Downs. it doesnt include ground fighting per se but once you understand the principles and theories behind the movements, learning to relax, flow with the opponent and etc you will realize they are the same (theory) on the ground and off.

As I have often been told, we are all on the same road, just different parts, Every one must travel the road at their own pace and as they wish.

if you think you need more to make you better, then u need more, i dont think i need more, i think i need to know more about what I know, that will make me better. I just seem to realize that answers are often there, we have yet to realize them.

[Vash]

Indeed. Good post.

[Ren Blade]

At my school all the grounds of combat are covered. Striking, kicking, takedowns/throws, and Chin Na (joint locks and cavity/pressure point attacks). When understanding how these are applied and very capable of applying these skills in stand up, can be applied to when off your feet and on your back or on top of your opponent. Trapping and sealing skills of stand up can be used on the ground. Like when standing up as you close in to attack your opponent, you block if he strikes and stick to that arm and seal their elbow by pressing it into them and immediately strike with your other hand. Or yanking down on their wrist and etc. Sealing someone's elbows makes it difficult for them to strike back or grab you or for them to pull off some counter or technique. Same on the ground. Sealing up their elbows and immediately follow up with your strike or Chin Na. And using your legs or hands depending where your position is to press or push their knees to keep them from wrapping their legs around you. Also if Chin Na principles are understood and one is capable of applying them stand up, Chin Na can be applied on the ground. If one is capable in Chin Na, then they know and which way to manipulate their opponent's joints and when someone is Chin Na capable, then it doesn't matter if standing up or laying down, Chin Na can be applied. Because Chinese Martial Arts is alive, it is adaptable to any situation. It will depend on the practitioner of the style what is practiced more, kicking or striking or Chin Na or throwing/takedowns. 2 people can practice the same Chinese Martial Art. One has proficiency in the kicking and the other could have proficiency in the Chin Na applying it standing up and flexible to use it on the ground. So it often does not depend on the style how one fights, but what tools of the style the practitioner decides to practice more. It's good to have abilities on all the ranges in combat. One of the tools of either the striking, kicking, Chin Na or takedowns will usually be strongest. But at the same time all practitioners should have some abilities in each even though one of those skills the practitioner is proficient in. But proficiency in all these skills is a must for the real fight is multidimensional and you never know what you'll have to do. So with the 4 previous mention skills, one should strive to be as flexible as they can in adapting those skills to whatever situation and whatever enviroment they're in. That includes weapons. Anyone proficient in many weapons and are capable of using them, then anything can become a weapon when a well trained Chinese Martial Artists grabs hold of anything.

If Chinese Martial Art school is incomplete and fails to teach their Chinese Martial Art style completely with one of the either striking, kicking, Chin Na, take downs is missing, then that school is incomplete and therefore that school is not a good Chinese Martial Art school and leaves their students no choice but to cross train with something else or find a better Chinese Martial Art school that is traditional enough to be complete in all ranges of combat.

Some Japanese Martial Arts contain more skills than what they are stereotyped to have. Like traditional Jujitsu does have a few strikes and kicks to accompany their Chin Na's and throws. Traditional Karate has joint locks and throws to accompany their punching and kicking. Again it will depend on the practitioner which of these skills they choose to focus on.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Ren Blade
Usually this applies to Chinese Martial Arts. Japanese and other nonChinese Martial Arts are more limited so often then one would have to cross train. If also a Chinese Martial Art school is incomplete and fails to teach their Chinese Martial Art style completely with one of the either striking, kicking, Chin Na, take downs is missing, then that school is incomplete and therefore that school is not a good Chinese Martial Art school and leaves their students no choice but to cross train with something else or find a better Chinese Martial Art school that is traditional enough to be complete in all ranges of combat.

Um . . . what? I don't see how a non-kung fu style of martial arts is any less complete. even the Japanese derivitives of Okinawan and Chinese arts, those few which are considered "watered down," can cover the differing ranges.

It's not the nationality of the art, it's the level of instruction therein.

[Ren Blade]

Sorry Vash, you are right. I am still waking up and I had reread what I wrote and was caught in my old thinking. But I do realize and have learned not all non-kung fu styles are limited and was editting my posts as you were posting. And I just read your post after I editted mine. I apologize.

I like this:

Originally posted by Vash
It's not the nationality of the art, it's the level of instruction therein.

[Vash]

'sall good, RB.

Peace.:cool:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KickingMantis

Meat shake the reason so many people cross train, especially in the USA is because they are inpatient, unloyal, undisciplined and in a hurry to achieve something in a another style that they dont want to wait to learn in their own.

Not true. muay thai has no ground grappling. period. you're not going to strike much in bjj. period. Most kung fu has ground fighting, but not ground grappling. Simple fact is that no single style has EVERYTHING. you can train muay thai all your life, and you will never learn a triangle choke, because it has no ground grappling. consequently, you cross train. Longfist kung fu - no ground grappling, and chin na doesn't transfer directly to the ground. Consequently, grappling training will have to come from elsewhere.

In addition, you want to learn your skill from those who are the best at it. I don't want to learn ground grappling from a longfist school - they don't focus on it like the grappling school does. On the same token, I don't want to learn striking at a grappling school.

As far as loyalty, loyalty to whom or what? training in another style is not disloyal. Those are mentalities that should be abandoned in this day and age, IMO, in the context of fighting.


If you stick around long enough in a particular style and be willing to learn the basics and master the basics...you will understand your style and see that it has more of what u need than less.

But not EVERYTHING. and what you lack can and will be exploited. look at TMA and how grapplers exploited their flaw.


"... a student moving around from SCHOOL to SCHOOL, thinking they are learning all they need to know about the style in one year, that student hasnt even touched the surface of the art. "

That's not cross training, that's style hopping or forms collecting. There's a difference.

Im sure good Tae Kwon Do has ways to defend themselves on the ground just as many other styles.....the thing is very few students stay around long enough to learn it.

False. And even if it were true, why wait 10 years to learn how to grapple?

if you go to high school and u leave at grade 10 or 11, the reason u didnt learn chemistry II or III is becasue u didnt stay around long enough to finish the curriculum. Not because the school doesnt offer it.

The flaw there is that not all MA offer everything. you will never learn a spinning crescent kick in bjj. you won't learn a rolling knee bar in TKD, etc.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ren Blade
Also if Chin Na principles are understood and one is capable of applying them stand up, Chin Na can be applied on the ground.

That's just not true. movement on the ground is different than that of standing. chin na does not directly transfer. And even if it did, if you aren't actively working it on the ground, you will still be hopelessly lost.

[Tainan Mantis]

Sevenstar,
Very logical points of view.
What we call cross training, by other names, has been a part of CMA since ancient times.
This is well documented in historical writings of old as well more recently.

I think I should gather all the evidence so that CMArtists will understand that cross training can make you better as well as increase your understanding, and show how this has been a part of CMA training since ancient times.

[SevenStar]

something like that would be great.

[KickingMantis]

FIRST OF SEVEN STAR, U QUOTED SOMETHING YOU THOUGHT I SAID THAT I DID NOT ND THAT IS THIS

SevenStar quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by KickingMantis

Meat shake the reason so many people cross train, especially in the USA is because they are inpatient, unloyal, undisciplined and in a hurry to achieve something in a another style that they dont want to wait to learn in their own.

THIS WAS ORIGINALLY POSTED BY MEATSHAKE WHOM I WAS QUOTING WHEN I ORIGINALLY POSTED. ALSO U SAID "UNLOYAL TO WHAT? "UNLOYAL TO HARD WORK."

YOU ALSO SAID....

SevenStar quote:

Not true. muay thai has no ground grappling. period. you're not going to strike much in bjj. period. Most kung fu has ground fighting, but not ground grappling. Simple fact is that no single style has EVERYTHING. you can train muay thai all your life, and you will never learn a triangle choke, because it has no ground grappling. consequently, you cross train. Longfist kung fu - no ground grappling, and chin na doesn't transfer directly to the ground. Consequently, grappling training will have to come from elsewhere.

IM NOT SAYING ALL STYLES HAVE EVERYTHING YOU NEED...I AM SAYING THAT MOST STYLES DO OR HAVE TECHNIQUES ON HOW TO DEAL WITH MOST SITUATIONS, NOT ALL...

DO YOU STUDY MANTIS? MANTIS PUNCHES, KICKS, SWEEPS, HAS CHIN-NA AND TECHNIQUES HOW TO GET OUT OF THEM AS WELL AS GROUND TECHNIQUES...NO IT DOESNT GRAPPLE PER SE...HOWEVER THE PRINCIPLES ARE SUCH THAT IF YOU UNDERSTAND THEM YOU CAN ESCAPE FROM MANY OF THE TECHNIQUES THAT GRAPPLERS USE BECAUSE ITS SIMPLY FEELING THE TECHNIQUE BEFORE IT IS APPLIED, RELAXING, AND GOING WITH THE ENERGY, YIELDING, REDIRECTING, ITS NOT EASY AND IT TAKES TIME BUT THATS BASICALLY WHAT IT IS. YOUR SAYING CHIN-NA CANT BE APPLIED ON THE GROUND, OBVIOUSLY YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT CHIN-NA.

But not EVERYTHING. and what you lack can and will be exploited. look at TMA and how grapplers exploited their flaw.

And no style has everything I agree. But learning multiple styles doesnt mean that you can and will learn everything you will need in any given situation, Hell learning and knowing multiple styles doesnt mean that you can even apply everything in a real situation. most real life situations require you to be good at the basics, the basics is the most that many people will ever need in a fight. Have you ever been in a real fight? with one or more people outside of a controlled environment?

In your profile you say that you know or study Judo, BJJ, Shui Chiao, Muy Thai, and Long Fist. Acording to your birthday in the profile you are only 27 years old. So you cant have mastered all these, or even have a good understanding of most of them. unless you have studied most of your life and the way our time is consumed in the USA with work, school, and life itself i can probably assume you have only dabbled here and there in a few of them only.

I previously said this.....

Im sure good Tae Kwon Do has ways to defend themselves on the ground just as many other styles.....the thing is very few students stay around long enough to learn it.

You replied with this...

False. And even if it were true, why wait 10 years to learn how to grapple?

HOW DO YOU KNOW SEVEN STAR ARE YOU A MASTER IN TKD TOO? OR JUST CROSS TRAINED IN LIKE YOU HAVE WITH ALL THE OTHER BAG OF TRICKS YOU HAVE...JUDO, BJJ, SHUI CHIAO, MUY THAI AND LONG FIST...

I PREVIOUSLY SAID.....

if you go to high school and u leave at grade 10 or 11, the reason u didnt learn chemistry II or III is because u didnt stay around long enough to finish the curriculum. Not because the school doesnt offer it.

YOU REPLIED.....

The flaw there is that not all MA offer everything. you will never learn a spinning crescent kick in bjj. you won't learn a rolling knee bar in TKD, etc.

I DONT THINK I AM SAYING ALL MARTIAL ARTS COVER EVERYTHING...WHAT I AM SAYING IS JUST BECAUSE BJJ DOESNT TEACH ME THE SPINNING CRESCENT KICK..DOESNT MEAN I HAVE TO GO LEARN IT IF BJJ IS GOING TO TEACH ME HOW TO COUNTER IT. OR DO I NECESSARILY HAVE TO LEARN A ROLLING KNEE BAR IF TKD OR ANOTHER STYLE TEACHES ME A COUNTER AGAINST IT OR TEACH ME A TECHNIQUE THAT IS MORE EFECTIVE IN A COMBAT SITUATION?

JUST BECAUSE A STYLE DOESNT HAVE SOMETHING, DOESNT MAKE IT LESS, IF THEY HAVE SOMETHING IN THE STYLE THEY FEEL IS A COUNTER TO SOMETHING OR IS MORE EFFECTIVE AND THEY CAN PROVE IT...ITS NOT NECESSARY TO HAVE TO ALWAYS CROSS TRAIN IS ALL I AM SAYING. AND JUST BECASUE YOU DIDNT LEARN IT OR DIDNT STICK AROUND TO GET IT DOESNT MEANT THEY DONT HAVE IT.

I THINK I'D RATHER TAKE SOME TIME TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM DOING IN ONE STYLE FIRST AND BECOME PROFICIENT IN IT THAN HAVE 5 OTHER STYLES THAT I ONLY HAVE A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE OF. AND REALLY DONT UNDERSTAND.

IM NOT ADVOCATING YOU HAVE TO MASTER ANYTHING BEFORE U CROSS TRAIN.. I AM SAYING HAVE A FOUNDATION IN ONE THING FIRST AND THEN CROSS TRAIN.

SevenStar said....... in the grand scheme of things, does it matter? If I can hold my own in a fight, I really don't NEED to be a master. As long as I have a solid foundation and obvious understanding of what I do, mastering a single style in itself is not a necessity. That said, most MA will indeed be a master of something - not a style necessarily, but a technique. they have that one technique that they can perform from any angle, off any feed, etc.

And i agree that you dont have to be a master at any style, that is your choice. If you can hold your own and you are competent with a few techniques and have mastered them and they work for you...God Bless you! However.eventually there will be some one that can counter those few techniques (tricks) from any angle, just like you can apply them and what will you rely on then?

Vash you said..........

This kind of relates to a conversation Yenhoi and myself were having in the Jeet Kune Do forum, the JKD = Art thread in particular .

Your argument seems to hearken to the need of a "purity" in training, that is, the study of one art at the ignorance of others.

Not dissing you, just trying to understand where you're coming from

AGAIN I AM NOT ADVOCATING THAT YOU HAVE TO ONLY STUDY ONE STYLE...YOU CAN DO WHAT U LIKE. ACTUALLY I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT PEOPLE DO AFTER THEY CAN UNDERSTAND THEIR OWN STYLE AND HAVE A GOOD FOUNDATION IN ONE. STUDYING MULTIPLE STYLES IS GOOD AND HELP US TO BETTER UNDERSTAND OUR OWN.


GOT'EM SAID THIS

I don't think you necessarily have to do a lot of groundfighting to be complete.But if you have a way of defending or to counter against the groundfighter,then I feel that you can consider your art to be complete.The question was about wing chun.Wing chun fights at close range.In order to do that they practice at close range.That's why they are good.If they spent their time doing groundfighting then they would'nt be that good at close range.They have ways to defeat grapplers and long range fighters.But they do it using wing chun,not switching to chang chuan or bjj.You have to look at what your art(whatever art it is) and find those answers.A lot of the forms in mantis can help you find what to use in certain situations.They offer solutions using mantis techniques and principles,not do what the other guy is doing.Kicking mantis explained this very well earlier.If your answer is "do everything to defeat everything"(especially if it's popular at the time) then you truly are a jack of trades,master of nothing.

THIS IS WHAT I AM SAYING AS WELL!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KickingMantis

THIS WAS ORIGINALLY POSTED BY MEATSHAKE WHOM I WAS QUOTING WHEN I ORIGINALLY POSTED.

My bad. Sorry about that.

ALSO U SAID "UNLOYAL TO WHAT? "UNLOYAL TO HARD WORK."

Sport fighters are some of the hardest workers out there, and the ones that do mma cross train. That makes that a false statement.


IM NOT SAYING ALL STYLES HAVE EVERYTHING YOU NEED...I AM SAYING THAT MOST STYLES DO OR HAVE TECHNIQUES ON HOW TO DEAL WITH MOST SITUATIONS, NOT ALL...

And that's exactly my reason for emphasizing cross training. It's the "not all" part or that sentence.

DO YOU STUDY MANTIS?

No.

MANTIS PUNCHES, KICKS, SWEEPS, HAS CHIN-NA AND TECHNIQUES HOW TO GET OUT OF THEM AS WELL AS GROUND TECHNIQUES...NO IT DOESNT GRAPPLE PER SE...HOWEVER THE PRINCIPLES ARE SUCH THAT IF YOU UNDERSTAND THEM YOU CAN ESCAPE FROM MANY OF THE TECHNIQUES THAT GRAPPLERS USE BECAUSE ITS SIMPLY FEELING THE TECHNIQUE BEFORE IT IS APPLIED, RELAXING, AND GOING WITH THE ENERGY, YIELDING, REDIRECTING, ITS NOT EASY AND IT TAKES TIME BUT THATS BASICALLY WHAT IT IS. YOUR SAYING CHIN-NA CANT BE APPLIED ON THE GROUND, OBVIOUSLY YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT CHIN-NA.

chin na does have elements that are useful in on the ground, but chin na does not directly transfer. Some of the principle may be the same, but the application differs because movement is different on the ground.

And no style has everything I agree. But learning multiple styles doesnt mean that you can and will learn everything you will need in any given situation, Hell learning and knowing multiple styles doesnt mean that you can even apply everything in a real situation. most real life situations require you to be good at the basics, the basics is the most that many people will ever need in a fight.

Cross training does not mean that you don't have a firm foundation in something. I make a distinction between cross training and forms collecting. I agree, it won't teach you everything - we will never know EVERYTHING, but I prefer to have as few gaps as possible.

Have you ever been in a real fight? with one or more people outside of a controlled environment?

yes to both of those.

In your profile you say that you know or study Judo, BJJ, Shui Chiao, Muy Thai, and Long Fist. Acording to your birthday in the profile you are only 27 years old. So you cant have mastered all these, or even have a good understanding of most of them. unless you have studied most of your life and the way our time is consumed in the USA with work, school, and life itself i can probably assume you have only dabbled here and there in a few of them only.

1. I started training when I was 6 - I've had plenty of time to train in various things.

2. I never claimed to be a master of any of them

I wouldn't quite call it dabbling, unless it's called long term dabbling. I've got 3 years of chun kuk do (basically, chuck norris' tang soo do), 3 years of shotokan, 4 years of longfist, 2 years of muay thai, 3 years of grappling and 2 years on jun fan and kali. Most of my time is not occupied doing work. I work a day job, lift weights during lunch, take my son with me to class, and have family time afterward. I spend about 15+ hours per week training, not including time in the gym. That 15+ hours is spent in judo/shuai chiao, bjj and muay thai, which I will be doing for the rest of my years training, provided I have a place to train them at.

I previously said this.....

Im sure good Tae Kwon Do has ways to defend themselves on the ground just as many other styles.....the thing is very few students stay around long enough to learn it.

You replied with this...

False. And even if it were true, why wait 10 years to learn how to grapple?

HOW DO YOU KNOW SEVEN STAR ARE YOU A MASTER IN TKD TOO? OR JUST CROSS TRAINED IN LIKE YOU HAVE WITH ALL THE OTHER BAG OF TRICKS YOU HAVE...JUDO, BJJ, SHUI CHIAO, MUY THAI AND LONG FIST...

I was in it, but very temporarily. I spent ALOT of time training with TKD upper level and black belts though. Of them all, only one grappled. As I said, even if grappling is in the system, why wait all that time to learn it?

I PREVIOUSLY SAID.....

if you go to high school and u leave at grade 10 or 11, the reason u didnt learn chemistry II or III is because u didnt stay around long enough to finish the curriculum. Not because the school doesnt offer it.

YOU REPLIED.....

The flaw there is that not all MA offer everything. you will never learn a spinning crescent kick in bjj. you won't learn a rolling knee bar in TKD, etc.

I DONT THINK I AM SAYING ALL MARTIAL ARTS COVER EVERYTHING...WHAT I AM SAYING IS JUST BECAUSE BJJ DOESNT TEACH ME THE SPINNING CRESCENT KICK..DOESNT MEAN I HAVE TO GO LEARN IT IF BJJ IS GOING TO TEACH ME HOW TO COUNTER IT. OR DO I NECESSARILY HAVE TO LEARN A ROLLING KNEE BAR IF TKD OR ANOTHER STYLE TEACHES ME A COUNTER AGAINST IT OR TEACH ME A TECHNIQUE THAT IS MORE EFECTIVE IN A COMBAT SITUATION?

and there's your flaw. If bjj doesn't do a spinning crescent kick, how are they going to effectively teach me how to counter it? They can't, unless one of them has had direct experience with a crescent kick. I don't want someone to say "well, this SHOULD work against a crescent kick, but since we don't do them, I'm not really sure" That makes the technique purely theoretical. I would much rather learn how a style that does crescent kicks deals with them. If a longfist school, for example teaches how to deal with the shoot, but they are doing it improperly because it's not a technique that they use, then you will be in for a surprise when you go against a shooter.

JUST BECAUSE A STYLE DOESNT HAVE SOMETHING, DOESNT MAKE IT LESS, IF THEY HAVE SOMETHING IN THE STYLE THEY FEEL IS A COUNTER TO SOMETHING OR IS MORE EFFECTIVE AND THEY CAN PROVE IT...

There goes the theoretical thing again...If your style has something to counter it, that's fine. It probably does. but you will not actually know until you get to try it, which will require cross training, OR regularly touching hands with someone in the said style.


ITS NOT NECESSARY TO HAVE TO ALWAYS CROSS TRAIN IS ALL I AM SAYING.

I agree. cross training is not for everyone. It actually takes alot of dedication to cross train. For the ones that do it, more power to them. For the ones that don't, more power to them. We just keep training and evolving in our own ways.

AND JUST BECASUE YOU DIDNT LEARN IT OR DIDNT STICK AROUND TO GET IT DOESNT MEANT THEY DONT HAVE IT.

that was never my point. The point is, if I want to be well rounded and competent quickly, a good way to do so is cross training. By doing so, I learn how to strike, right now. And, I learn how to grapple right now. I don't have to wait X number of years in my system which may or may not have what I'm looking for.

I THINK I'D RATHER TAKE SOME TIME TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM DOING IN ONE STYLE FIRST AND BECOME PROFICIENT IN IT THAN HAVE 5 OTHER STYLES THAT I ONLY HAVE A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE OF. AND REALLY DONT UNDERSTAND.

I agree with that. Mastery is not required to have that understanding though. The path that works best IME with cross training is having a firm foundation in something and then branching out. There are others who will just jump into multiple arts from the outset. No problem there. However, if going that route, I would spend more time in one art than the other, and consider it as my base art.

IM NOT ADVOCATING YOU HAVE TO MASTER ANYTHING BEFORE U CROSS TRAIN.. I AM SAYING HAVE A FOUNDATION IN ONE THING FIRST AND THEN CROSS TRAIN.

Then we agree.


And i agree that you dont have to be a master at any style, that is your choice. If you can hold your own and you are competent with a few techniques and have mastered them and they work for you...God Bless you! However.eventually there will be some one that can counter those few techniques (tricks) from any angle, just like you can apply them and what will you rely on then?

why would you refer to them as tricks? when someone counters a technique, I just flow to the next. I'm not looking for some invincible technique. I rely on what I always rely on - my strategy and skill. I'm going to do my best to make you fight MY fight, not yours.

[KickingMantis]

SEVEN STAR...

u said......

Sport fighters are some of the hardest workers out there, and the ones that do mma cross train. That makes that a false statement.

Yeah some of them they do, your right, if they can get over there muscle head ego thinking they know everything! This is the attitude that I come across with most of them. Because they have studied a little of this and a little of that they think they know all there is to know and you cant teach them much else.

DO YOU STUDY MANTIS?

No.

ok so you dont know much about what im talking about!

you said.....

chin na does have elements that are useful in on the ground, but chin na does not directly transfer. Some of the principle may be the same, but the application differs because movement is different on the ground.

Do you or have u studied or have a good undersatnding of Chin-NA?

you said......
.
I wouldn't quite call it dabbling, unless it's called long term dabbling. I've got 3 years of chun kuk do (basically, chuck norris' tang soo do), 3 years of shotokan, 4 years of longfist, 2 years of muay thai, 3 years of grappling and 2 years on jun fan and kali

This is not long term at all by any means...collectively yes....but in real terms you have just started touching the surface of these art in 3-4 yearsatmost. In modern terms, you have reached a black belt level, which means you have mastered the basics at most and are just now starting to learn the essence of the true essences of these styles. So u have just dabbled and because of that you may be a good fighter or may not. But do you really know the true essence of these systems, most likely not, and that may not be tour goal, since they may or may not be your major style.

You said....

and there's your flaw. If bjj doesn't do a spinning crescent kick, how are they going to effectively teach me how to counter it? They can't, unless one of them has had direct experience with a crescent kick. I don't want someone to say "well, this SHOULD work against a crescent kick, but since we don't do them, I'm not really sure" That makes the technique purely theoretical. I would much rather learn how a style that does crescent kicks deals with them. If a longfist school, for example teaches how to deal with the shoot, but they are doing it improperly because it's not a technique that they use, then you will be in for a surprise when you go against a shooter.

Ok man......i was in a okinawan karate tournament in 1990 inn Okinawa, i witnessed a traditional okinawan karate guy sparring a TKD guy. the TKD guy did a jump spinning crescent kick at the Karate guy, he the Karate , blocked the kick, while the guy was in the air, hit him, while he was still in the air and pulled him out of the air and slammed him to the ground. In the okinawan style, there was no jump spinning crescent kicks, The okinawan karate guy didnt have to go learn TKD to learn how defend himself against those type of kicks...they are called tried and tested principles, theories and concepts that work.

you said.....

I was in it, but very temporarily. I spent ALOT of time training with TKD upper level and black belts though. Of them all, only one grappled. As I said, even if grappling is in the system, why wait all that time to learn it?

spending a lot of time learning parts of a system is not learning a system. I can spend a lot of time learning a few katas or forms, kicks, punches from a system, doesnt mean i know that system, means i have a general idea of it and thats it. You can spend sometime learning mantis man, but you will not even get an average understanding unless you train under someone that really KNOWS AND UNDERSATND MANTIS, and i actually realize very very few people do. And most people dont in 3-5 years. Hell most people never do.

you said......

There goes the theoretical thing again...If your style has something to counter it, that's fine. It probably does. but you will not actually know until you get to try it, which will require cross training, OR regularly touching hands with someone in the said style.

right experience! not necessary cross training. The fact remains that most people that say they study martial arts. In a real combat situation rarely use more that basics. Its whatcomes naturally, things that you have done over and over again and usually those are simple straight forward movements.

But good luck to you in your journey.....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KickingMantis
Yeah some of them they do, your right, if they can get over there muscle head ego thinking they know everything! This is the attitude that I come across with most of them. Because they have studied a little of this and a little of that they think they know all there is to know and you cant teach them much else.

Sounds like you've had a bad experience. None of the ones that I know/ have ever met are that way. getting you arse beat tends to humble you. No matter what you train in, if you can use it and make it work, they respect it. That's been my experience.

ok so you dont know much about what im talking about!

On the subject of cross training and chin na? sure I do. That's hardly anything mantis specific


Do you or have u studied or have a good undersatnding of Chin-NA?

yeah, I've studied chin na. I was in longfist right before starting bjj. principles are there, but it doesn't directly transfer. There are different degrees of motion on the ground. That said, if you are constantly training your chin na on the ground, you can play with it and figure out how to apply it on the ground. If you don't, then you may be surprised...

This is not long term at all by any means...collectively yes....but in real terms you have just started touching the surface of these art in 3-4 yearsatmost. In modern terms, you have reached a black belt level, which means you have mastered the basics at most and are just now starting to learn the essence of the true essences of these styles. So u have just dabbled and because of that you may be a good fighter or may not. But do you really know the true essence of these systems, most likely not, and that may not be tour goal, since they may or may not be your major style.

I agree with you there. I haven't mastered any of them by any means. I've got a more than decent understanding of them and how to apply them, however. I stopped training in those styles for various reasons - schools closing, me moving, etc. The actual intentional cross training effort is grappling and muay thai, which I currently do.

Ok man......i was in a okinawan karate tournament in 1990 inn Okinawa, i witnessed a traditional okinawan karate guy sparring a TKD guy. the TKD guy did a jump spinning crescent kick at the Karate guy, he the Karate , blocked the kick, while the guy was in the air, hit him, while he was still in the air and pulled him out of the air and slammed him to the ground. In the okinawan style, there was no jump spinning crescent kicks, The okinawan karate guy didnt have to go learn TKD to learn how defend himself against those type of kicks...they are called tried and tested principles, theories and concepts that work.

you fail to see what I am saying. CAN his defense work? sure it can. and in that case, it did. That's principle in action. Either he or someone before him likely tried it, it worked, so they kept it. If you notice above, I said that if you don't cross train, then at the least you should be testing against other styles.

spending a lot of time learning parts of a system is not learning a system. I can spend a lot of time learning a few katas or forms, kicks, punches from a system, doesnt mean i know that system, means i have a general idea of it and thats it. You can spend sometime learning mantis man, but you will not even get an average understanding unless you train under someone that really KNOWS AND UNDERSATND MANTIS, and i actually realize very very few people do. And most people dont in 3-5 years. Hell most people never do.

what does that have to do with ground grappling being in TKD? However, to address that point, you can probably say that of all styles, not just mantis. you will never know it all. That's just how it goes. Which is cool to me, as complete mastery of any one system is not what I seek. To be as proficient and well rounded as possible is what I'm after. MT is not going to teach me ground grappling. BJJ is not going to teach me how to strike. Combine the two, and hey, now we're getting more well rounded.

right experience! not necessary cross training. The fact remains that most people that say they study martial arts. In a real combat situation rarely use more that basics. Its whatcomes naturally, things that you have done over and over again and usually those are simple straight forward movements.

when the heart rate elevates to around 120 bpm, anything not ingrained into your motor memory gets tossed out the window. that's why basics and drilling are so important, as is experience, as you pointed out. We agree on that.

But good luck to you in your journey.....

And the same to you.

[SevenStar]

I had to make that last post kind of quick, as I had a meeting and wanted to get to the gym before hand. One thing I wanted to elaborate more on was using a technique from your style to counter one from another style.

Inherently, there's nothing wrong with it. But, one thing to remember, especially in the case that you are basing your experience off of training with people other than the style of the technique that you are trying to counter, is that you may be doing something wrong in the execution of the other style's technique. Let's take the double leg as an example. A big misconception among many TMA and non MA at all is that the double leg is merely a tackle. we see self defenses against a tackle, and they invole rooting and striking, sidestepping, etc. which work well against the tackle.

Technically and structurally, the double and the tackle are two very different techniques. by rooting, your stucturally sound stance may indeed be stronger than my sloppy tackle. Consequently, you may root yourself and strike to the opponent's neck, back, etc. A tackle is quite telegraphic, so you may indeed be able to sidestep, and givcen that the tackle is an offbalanced technique, you may use his own energy to drive him into the ground as you step off line. These are commonly seen defenses for the tackle. These were the same defenses that people assumed would work at the outset of the UFC. In principle these techniques work, but when you try them against an exponent that specializes in takedowns, you some things.

1. a shot isn't so telegraphed. it's alot harder to step offline.
2. a shot is not off balanced. consequently, even if you managed to sidestep, you're not gonna drive him into the ground.
3. a shot isn't structurally weak, so rooting is not enough to fend one off.
4. a tackle will drive you backwards. While you are being driven backwards, your feet are in contact with the ground. while going backwards, your strikes may not be as powerful, but you may still be able to get some power into it. With a shot, you are being uprooted. you lose your connection to the ground AND are being taken backward, and hence lose your striking power.

someone who hasn't trained in grappling will not have as good of a shot as someone who has, meaning that you may be training to defend against more of a tackle than a shot.

Also, just because something is in a system, that doesn't mean you will use it. For example, at the longfist school I attended, we of course learned applications to our forms and stances. One application of the posture "shoot the bow" is a fireman's carry. One application of golden rooster stance is a sweep. They are both very sound techniques, but they were rarely trained in application, only in the form. Consequently, they never used those particular applications in sparring or on the street. That's once again why I value cross training. Even though there was grappling in that system, it's not something that was practiced often. In grappling, we do such techniqes on a regular basis, several times per week. Consequently, I was much better off grappling than hoping to learn grappling through longfist.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by SevenStar
...
Even though there was grappling in that system, it's not something that was practiced often. In grappling, we do such techniqes on a regular basis, several times per week. Consequently, I was much better off grappling than hoping to learn grappling through longfist.
...
I agree. It is much better to learn grappling from grapplers. Who wants to WAIT 4 years to learn grappling when you could spend 4 years LEARNING to grapple?

As for the Chin Na not transferrable to the ground issue, doesn't twisting someones bones or hyper-extending their muscle hurt just as much on the ground as it does standing up? I don't know Chin Na so pardon my ignorance, but it is supposed to specialize in breaking bones, joint-locks, hyper-extending muscles and joints, and basically twisting parts of the body in ways they weren't meant to go...

Very interesting on the difference between a "shot" and a "tackle".

[KickingMantis]

mantisben
Senior Member

Registered: May 2002
Location:
Posts: 209

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by SevenStar
...
Even though there was grappling in that system, it's not something that was practiced often. In grappling, we do such techniqes on a regular basis, several times per week. Consequently, I was much better off grappling than hoping to learn grappling through longfist.
...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I agree. It is much better to learn grappling from grapplers. Who wants to WAIT 4 years to learn grappling when you could spend 4 years LEARNING to grapple?

BECAUSE ACCORDING TO SEVEN STAR ALL YOU WOULD LEARN IS GRAPPLING. THATS WHY. ARE THEY GOING TO TEACH YOU TO PUNCH, KICK, AND ETC....ALL FIGHTS ARE NOT STARTED BY GRAPPLING FIRST. THATS WHY IM SURE GRAPPLERS HAVE COUNTERS TO KICKS, COUNTERS TO PUNCHES DO THEY NOT?
SevenStar I had to make that last post kind of quick, as I had a meeting and wanted to get to the gym before hand. One thing I wanted to elaborate more on was using a technique from your style to counter one from another style.


QUOTE BY SEVEN STAR

someone who hasn't trained in grappling will not have as good of a shot as someone who has, meaning that you may be training to defend against more of a tackle than a shot.

YOU ARE ASSUMING HERE, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE TRAINING FOR IF YOU HAVENT ACTUALLY SPENT TIME IN THE SYSTEM TO SEE WHAT THEYA RE TRAINING FOR.

Also, just because something is in a system, that doesn't mean you will use it. For example, at the longfist school I attended, we of course learned applications to our forms and stances. One application of the posture "shoot the bow" is a fireman's carry. One application of golden rooster stance is a sweep. They are both very sound techniques, but they were rarely trained in application, only in the form. Consequently, they never used those particular applications in sparring or on the street.

SEVEN STAR THERE IS A LOT IN EVERY SYSTEM THAT PEOPLE RARELY USE, DOESNT MAKE IT INEFFECTIVE, IT JUST MEANS THAT SOME MOVEMENTS OR TEVHNIQUES BECOME FAVORITES AND PEOPLE TEND TO CHOOSE TO TRAIN THEM MORE AND BECOME MORE EFFICIENT IN THEM, THEY MAY BE EASIER TO LEARN, MASTER AND THUS APPLY.

MAYBE YOU SHOULD MAKE IT A PERSONAL OBSERVATION AND SAY THAT "YOU" HAVE LEARNED CERTAIN TECHNIQUES AND APPLICATIONS WHILE YOU WERE IN LONG FIST SUCH AS THE "SHOOT THE BOW" AND "GOLDEN ROOSTER STANCE" AND CONSEQUENTLY, EITHER CHOSE NOT TO, FAILED TO OR HAD NO PERSONAL INTEREST IN USING THOSE APPLICATIONS IN SPARRING ON THE STREETS.

JUST BECAUSE YOU DIDNT TRAIN A MOVEMENT ENOUGH TO MAKE IT WORK FOR YOU OR DONT UNDERSTAND HOW ITS GOING TO WORK ON THE STREET DOESNT MEAN IT DOESNT WORK, JUST MEANS YOU FAILED TO MAKE IT WORK FOR YOU, HAD NO INTEREST OR DONT UNDERSTAND THE MOVEMENT OR APPLICATION THEREOF.

That's once again why I value cross training. Even though there was grappling in that system, it's not something that was practiced often. In grappling, we do such techniqes on a regular basis, several times per week. Consequently, I was much better off grappling than hoping to learn grappling through longfist.


IF GRAPPLING IS WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR, GREAT! YOU HAVE TO BE HAPPY WITH WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

THAT BEING SAID, NOT ALL FIGHTS END UP ON THE GROUND. IVE SEEN FIGHTS AND SITUATIONS END WITH ONE BLOW TO THE FACE AND HEAD AND THAT WAS ALL IT TOOK.

I HAVE BEEN IN FIGHTS WHEN MORE THAN ONE PERSON WAS TRYING TO TAKE ME TO THE GROUND TO FIGHT THEIR FIGHT AND I WAS ABLE TO MAKE THEM FIGHT MY FIGHT, BY KEEPING IT OFF THE GROUND. USING PUNCHES, KICKS, TAKE DOWNS AND CHIN NA.

THIS EXCHANGE OF IDEAS IN CONVERSATION HAS BEEN GOOD FOR ME AND HAS MADE ME LOOK AT MY STANCE ON A FEW ISSUES
IN A DIFFERENT LIGHT AND I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR EXCHANGE WITH ME. HOWEVER, IT HAS ALSO MADE ME STAND FIRMER ON OTHER ISSUES. BUT YOU HAVE BEN CORDIAL AND POLITE AND I APPRECIATE IT. IM GLAD THERE ARE FORUMS BY WHICH WE CAN EXPRESS OUR OPINIONS AND IDEAS IN CORDIAL WAY AND HOPEFULLY SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY.

A FEW YEARS AGO THERE WAS NO TALK OF UFC AND GRAPPLING HAS ONLY BEEN A RECENT BOOM WITH THE GRACIES COMING ON THE SCENE. SO EVERYONE JUMPS ON THE BAND WAGON WITH THE NEW FADS. AFTER THE GRAPPLING AND THE UFC HIGHLIGHT FAD PASSES THERE WILL BE A DISCUSSION ON THE NEXT FAD.

IN THE END, I THINK IT IS THE LOVE FOR THE MARTIAL ARTS AND FOR WHAT WE DO AND OUR GROWTH IN THEM THAT MATTERS REGARDLESS OF WHAT ROAD YOU CHOOSE, NOE MUST FEEL CONFIDENT IN WHAT THEY DO AND WHAT THEY KNOW.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by KickingMantis
...
BECAUSE ACCORDING TO SEVEN STAR ALL YOU WOULD LEARN IS GRAPPLING. THATS WHY. ARE THEY GOING TO TEACH YOU TO PUNCH, KICK, AND ETC....ALL FIGHTS ARE NOT STARTED BY GRAPPLING FIRST. THATS WHY IM SURE GRAPPLERS HAVE COUNTERS TO KICKS, COUNTERS TO PUNCHES DO THEY NOT?
I agree with you. From what I've seen in UFC fights, Grapplers can punch, kick, elbow, and knee.

And Grapple...

Also, is your caps-lock key stuck? Usually when someone types something in all capital letters, it is like shouting. And if you are shouting, it is all well and good with me. I don't want to offend you.

[KickingMantis]

No MantisBen, I wasn't intentionally trying to shout. I was trying to distinquish my words from those of yours and SevenStar. I couldnt figure out how to make things bold on her is all. And no you didnt offend me at all. :)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by mantisben

I agree with you. From what I've seen in UFC fights, Grapplers can punch, kick, elbow, and knee.

And Grapple...



No - those are MMA guys. that's not the same as bjj. bjj is a ground grappling style. MMA is mixed martial arts. Many MMA guys cross train in striking and a grappling art.

most guys who do bjj know how to punch and kick, but they learned it from the striking style that they cross train in.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KickingMantis


BECAUSE ACCORDING TO SEVEN STAR ALL YOU WOULD LEARN IS GRAPPLING.

that would be true. In a bjj class you're not going to learn how to kick.

THATS WHY. ARE THEY GOING TO TEACH YOU TO PUNCH, KICK, AND ETC....ALL FIGHTS ARE NOT STARTED BY GRAPPLING FIRST. THATS WHY IM SURE GRAPPLERS HAVE COUNTERS TO KICKS, COUNTERS TO PUNCHES DO THEY NOT?

sure they do. BUT, they are doing the same thing as the TMA guys who train against a double, even though they are only training against people from their own style... it's going to be their interpretation of how the technique is done, unless they've had some experience in a striking style (which many have). if you want to learn to striking, train a striking art, not a grappling art.




YOU ARE ASSUMING HERE, YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE TRAINING FOR IF YOU HAVENT ACTUALLY SPENT TIME IN THE SYSTEM TO SEE WHAT THEYA RE TRAINING FOR.

that's just common sense. I train in bjj and muay thai - do you think my mantis is better than yours?


SEVEN STAR THERE IS A LOT IN EVERY SYSTEM THAT PEOPLE RARELY USE, DOESNT MAKE IT INEFFECTIVE, IT JUST MEANS THAT SOME MOVEMENTS OR TEVHNIQUES BECOME FAVORITES AND PEOPLE TEND TO CHOOSE TO TRAIN THEM MORE AND BECOME MORE EFFICIENT IN THEM, THEY MAY BE EASIER TO LEARN, MASTER AND THUS APPLY.

I never said the technique itself was ineffective. YOU make it ineffective. you make it ineffective by not training it. As with the longfist example I cited. None of them could use the grappling techniques because they don't train them. Was it in the system? yes. could they use it? no. why? because they don't work it. In a grappling style they would constantly work it. That's the only point I was making.

MAYBE YOU SHOULD MAKE IT A PERSONAL OBSERVATION AND SAY THAT "YOU" HAVE LEARNED CERTAIN TECHNIQUES AND APPLICATIONS WHILE YOU WERE IN LONG FIST SUCH AS THE "SHOOT THE BOW" AND "GOLDEN ROOSTER STANCE" AND CONSEQUENTLY, EITHER CHOSE NOT TO, FAILED TO OR HAD NO PERSONAL INTEREST IN USING THOSE APPLICATIONS IN SPARRING ON THE STREETS.

JUST BECAUSE YOU DIDNT TRAIN A MOVEMENT ENOUGH TO MAKE IT WORK FOR YOU OR DONT UNDERSTAND HOW ITS GOING TO WORK ON THE STREET DOESNT MEAN IT DOESNT WORK, JUST MEANS YOU FAILED TO MAKE IT WORK FOR YOU, HAD NO INTEREST OR DONT UNDERSTAND THE MOVEMENT OR APPLICATION THEREOF.

first , I wasn't talking about me - the fireman's is actually a favorite technique of mine. I was talking about how that technique was trained at that school. second, you are paraphrasing exactly what I am saying. If you don't train the technique, it won't work, regardless of whether or not it's in the system.


IF GRAPPLING IS WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR, GREAT! YOU HAVE TO BE HAPPY WITH WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

THAT BEING SAID, NOT ALL FIGHTS END UP ON THE GROUND. IVE SEEN FIGHTS AND SITUATIONS END WITH ONE BLOW TO THE FACE AND HEAD AND THAT WAS ALL IT TOOK.

C'mon... I never said all fights end up on the ground. I haven't even been referencing fighting except for one sentence in my last post. I've ended one fight with one blow - but more often than not, it will take more than one. MANY of the fights I've seen have gone to the ground, since you mentioned it, but not all of them. Regardless, the fact remains that you CAN be taken there. Thusly, you should know what to do if you go there. the same goes for a grappler who can't strike...he needs to learn how to effectively strike.

I HAVE BEEN IN FIGHTS WHEN MORE THAN ONE PERSON WAS TRYING TO TAKE ME TO THE GROUND TO FIGHT THEIR FIGHT AND I WAS ABLE TO MAKE THEM FIGHT MY FIGHT, BY KEEPING IT OFF THE GROUND. USING PUNCHES, KICKS, TAKE DOWNS AND CHIN NA.

As have I. the fight favored me that day. That doesn't mean I can't and won't be taken down though...Once again, that's not the issue at hand. crosstraining is.

THIS EXCHANGE OF IDEAS IN CONVERSATION HAS BEEN GOOD FOR ME AND HAS MADE ME LOOK AT MY STANCE ON A FEW ISSUES
IN A DIFFERENT LIGHT AND I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR EXCHANGE WITH ME. HOWEVER, IT HAS ALSO MADE ME STAND FIRMER ON OTHER ISSUES. BUT YOU HAVE BEN CORDIAL AND POLITE AND I APPRECIATE IT. IM GLAD THERE ARE FORUMS BY WHICH WE CAN EXPRESS OUR OPINIONS AND IDEAS IN CORDIAL WAY AND HOPEFULLY SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY.

I agree. I'm always up for a good exchange. It gives everyone a chance to learn something.

A FEW YEARS AGO THERE WAS NO TALK OF UFC AND GRAPPLING HAS ONLY BEEN A RECENT BOOM WITH THE GRACIES COMING ON THE SCENE. SO EVERYONE JUMPS ON THE BAND WAGON WITH THE NEW FADS. AFTER THE GRAPPLING AND THE UFC HIGHLIGHT FAD PASSES THERE WILL BE A DISCUSSION ON THE NEXT FAD.

It's not just a fad - it was an eye opener. people weren't aware of the threat which was grappling. They assumed they would always be on their feet and tended to neglect ground work. The advent of MMA fights changed that. It also opened up the eyes of grapplers. As strikers learned to grapple, they began beating pure grapplers. so the grapplers began to cross train in striking. It's all about evolution.

IN THE END, I THINK IT IS THE LOVE FOR THE MARTIAL ARTS AND FOR WHAT WE DO AND OUR GROWTH IN THEM THAT MATTERS REGARDLESS OF WHAT ROAD YOU CHOOSE, NOE MUST FEEL CONFIDENT IN WHAT THEY DO AND WHAT THEY KNOW.

I agree. Good martial art transcends style.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by SevenStar

...
most guys who do bjj know how to punch and kick, but they learned it from the striking style that they cross train in.
So, BJJ doesn't contain any strikes? I don't know BJJ, but I find it hard to believe that it doesn't have any strikes. I find it hard to believe ANY fighting art doesn't contain strikes.

[SevenStar]

BJJ is a sport fighting art derrived from judo. Strikes are not allowed.

That said, when you are working self defense drills, you will learn defenses against the same standard punches that you do in striking styles, but those strikes aren't taught to you.

you will also learn how to knee and strike from control positions on the ground. That applies to self defense and also to MMA, vale tudo, etc. rules.

So, if you want to count those, then yes, it has strikes. I don't find it hard to believe, however - there are many systems that don't ground grapple, why would it be so hard to believe the opposite? Wrestling is another art you won't strike in.

[Tamojin]

I study 7 star and my sifu constantly says we specialize in short range.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by SevenStar
BJJ is a sport fighting art derrived from judo. Strikes are not allowed.
I wasn't thinking about a 'Sport' fighting art. I could believe that a sport-fighting art doesn't contain strikes, since most 'Sports' have rules on what you can and cannot do. I didn't know BJJ was a 'Sport' fighting art.


I don't find it hard to believe, however - there are many systems that don't ground grapple, why would it be so hard to believe the opposite?

Most non-sport fighting arts are based on striking. Grappling, by nature, is more complicated than striking. Striking CAN get complicated, but for the most part, striking is not as complicated as grappling. Striking is more natural to do than grappling. Get 2 people with no fighting training, and tell them to fight and try to hurt each other. The MAJORITY (not everyone) of these people will try to strike each other.

[Vash]

The difference between sport fighting and "classical" training is the sports dudes take what they can use, and train it to the point that they can really fug you up with it.

Throw in that more dangerous stuff, that's some bad ju-ju.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I suspect I'll get a lot of opposition to this comment but here goes ...

No matter what style of martial arts you train eventually you will begin to understand the underlying principles as well as body mechanics. Reflex and agility training along with conditioning will go a long way in dealing with adversaries of unknown training who have unknown techniques. Knowing how your style deals with different attacks you can you can then create new responses to new attacks.

Early in your training you practice specific moves. When you are advanced you should not be limited to only what you were taught as a beginner. The situation mentioned by KickingMantis about the okinawan karate tournament is a perfect example of dealing with a new situation using the principles of your style.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by mantisben

I wasn't thinking about a 'Sport' fighting art. I could believe that a sport-fighting art doesn't contain strikes, since most 'Sports' have rules on what you can and cannot do. I didn't know BJJ was a 'Sport' fighting art.



Most non-sport fighting arts are based on striking. Grappling, by nature, is more complicated than striking. Striking CAN get complicated, but for the most part, striking is not as complicated as grappling. Striking is more natural to do than grappling. Get 2 people with no fighting training, and tell them to fight and try to hurt each other. The MAJORITY (not everyone) of these people will try to strike each other.

yeah, I agree. On that last point though - watch the two untrained fighters. It's probable that ene will try to tackle, or they will end up in a clinch fall/drag eachother down.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
I suspect I'll get a lot of opposition to this comment but here goes ...

Only one thing I oppose, and I only oppose it to an extent:

No matter what style of martial arts you train eventually you will begin to understand the underlying principles as well as body mechanics.

experience in a standup art does not translate to efficiency on the ground. you can train for 20 years and still not know how to do a proper basic guard pass. Sure, thinking of a way to block a jumping spin kick can be fathomed - it's not extremely complicated. groundwork is VERY complicated. It's not just something you pick up from general MA experience. you will understand the mechanics, that's actually rather basic - the body moves certain ways. The main thing is positioning. two inches of extra space can mean the difference between you maintaining a dominant position and you being reversed by your opponent.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by SevenStar
...
watch the two untrained fighters. It's probable that ene will try to tackle, or they will end up in a clinch fall/drag eachother down.
Absolutely. You are right.

[KickingMantis]

"The main thing is positioning. two inches of extra space can mean the difference between you maintaining a dominant position and you being reversed by your opponent." (Seven Star)

I agree, but i think at some point, every martial artists starts to figure this out or starts to understand this. This is what makes the much smaller guy able to deal with the much larger and bulkier guys on the ground and off the ground.

For the most part, I have seen and heard of martial artist being in compromising situations when the altercations goes to the ground, they often feel ill prepared. Because they always trained on their feet. This is not a style problem, it is a school, insructor or student problem.

However, body mechanics is body mechanics, positioning is positioning, on the ground or off. a inch or two is the same on the ground or off, if you understand body mechanics, the way the body bends, turns, moves and is positioned, you can escape most moves, locks, holds, and grabs.

Fighting to me is similiar to swimming. My first time learning to swim in the Marine Corps was a long process and often would have drown. I would panic in the water and take myself straight down. Once i learned to relax, take breaths, and just keeping moving I started to get it. I still am not the best swimmer, but I will not and refuse to drown.

Its similiar to fighting in that. I figured out I am not the best swimmer, and drowning can happen so fast as does a fight, I didnt have time to do all the fancy strokes they taught us during the week of swimming class, but i learned to stay afloat and get to the sides and eventually bascially swim.

When i was much younger and being around guys all the time in the military, in a military police unit, applying a lot of the kung fu basics in altercations, conflicts, and down right challenges with these guys, sometimes much bigger, some trained in various martial arts and some not. I learned that, knowing simple and basic body mechanics and positioning help me a lot when in tight spots on and off the ground, with no prior BJJ or any other ground training, because its common sense. You bend or lock a finger, elbow, a wrist, leg, neck, shoulder, knees, groin or other joints and pressure points it works, for the few seconds to 3 or so minutes that most altercations last, although they seem much much longer, its the basics that will work and understanding whatever your studying, being that you are further along in a system that teaches you how to manipulate and use the body.

Now, if I am going to participate in a tourney or championship where all or most of the practicioners are going to grapple, then I'll take up and learn one of my choice.

Since i am not UFC intersted I most likely want. Because I feel with my past experiences and with the style I am learning, I am comfortable in most situations on and off the ground.

I think a properly trained mantis stylist,as well as many other systems that relys on the grabs and countering grabs, Chin-Na,
relying on the other indivuiduals energy and yielding/redirecting etc., , takedowns, sweeps, and other techniques have an advantage in many situations even with ground fighters. In order to be taken to the ground you most likely have to be grabbed, rushed, sweeped, or either hit or kicked pretty hard and even then, thats a lot of force coming your way, that can be felt, redirected and used against your opponent.

Most altercations dont start on the ground. The aim of the mantis practicioner is to finish the altercation with 1-3 techniques, so speed, accuracy, trapping your opponents center and imbalancing them, immediately among other things is important. I wouldnt even wait until they attacked me, If I had the slight indication that they were I wouldnt hestitate to take the initiative and try and put them on your back or head.

If a mantis practioner ends on the ground grappling with a opponent, then he/she didn't use the system in the first place.
I read in a statement in an old mantis book, that goes something like this "Once your hand touches my hand, means death for you"

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KickingMantis


For the most part, I have seen and heard of martial artist being in compromising situations when the altercations goes to the ground, they often feel ill prepared. Because they always trained on their feet. This is not a style problem, it is a school, insructor or student problem.

Not all styles address ground grappling sufficiently, if at all. That would indeed make it a style problem.

However, body mechanics is body mechanics, positioning is positioning, on the ground or off. a inch or two is the same on the ground or off, if you understand body mechanics, the way the body bends, turns, moves and is positioned, you can escape most moves, locks, holds, and grabs.

not necessarily. There are different ranges of movement on the ground. There are escapes on the ground that aren't possible standing. the mechanics are the same, the positioning is not, and is not something you will pick up spontaneuosly, simply because you understand standing locks.

I think a properly trained mantis stylist,as well as many other systems that relys on the grabs and countering grabs, Chin-Na,
relying on the other indivuiduals energy and yielding/redirecting etc., , takedowns, sweeps, and other techniques have an advantage in many situations even with ground fighters. In order to be taken to the ground you most likely have to be grabbed, rushed, sweeped, or either hit or kicked pretty hard and even then, thats a lot of force coming your way, that can be felt, redirected and used against your opponent.

grapplers, judoka, etc. spend ALOT of time in the clinch - mantis has no advantage there. A shuai chiao player, maybe, as they spend the majority of their time in the clinch as well. grappling is all about sensitivity, timing and technique....he can sense the same movements and do the same redirections as a chin na/mantis player.

Most altercations dont start on the ground.

you're right. most of them will go to a clinch though, and as stated above, grapplers are VERY comfortable there.

If a mantis practioner ends on the ground grappling with a opponent, then he/she didn't use the system in the first place.

That doesn't make any sense...Are you saying a good mantis player can't be taken down?


I read in a statement in an old mantis book, that goes something like this "Once your hand touches my hand, means death for you"

Ideally, sure. But how often does it happen?

[KickingMantis]

I dont know what sufficiently is even necessary, Seven Star, when u are talking about teaching martial arts to the masses, Like I said previously, if one is planning to do sport bjj or judo or something for competition, then I would say learn groundfighting efficientlyand sufficiently as you can. However, the reason MOST people learn self defense is to be able to protect themselves in self defense situations, altercations, robbings, muggings, rape and etc that happens so fast, MOST people need reinforced training in basic self defense. I believe that some ground training would be helpful , so if the situation goes to the ground, they will feel comfortable there, However, getting into all the technicalities is not even immportant, and Im not going to even discuss it with you, because most people that I know that talk all theory, principle,and concept, can not apply it. Actually very few can.

Theorizing, conceptualizing about what your style can do or what you can do is very different than doing it with an opponent of equal skill, weight, size, length, and years of training out of a controlled environment.

I agree there are different ranges of mobility on the ground verses those standing up, I am sure there are escapes on the ground that aren't possible standing. Obviously, the mechanics are the same, the positioning is not, and is not something you will pick up spontaneuosly, simply because you understand standing locks, as you said, I didnt say simply because you understand locks, there is more to it than that, that you failed to comprehend. Go back and read what I said about it.

I am sure grapplers, judoka, etc. spend ALOT of time in the clinch, you said mantis players have no advantage there, i am assuming u know by experience. I wouldnt know because i dont know what you mean when u say a clinch. Please explain the technique, Then tell me have you spent time sparing with a experienced mantis player and attempted to execute the "clinch" and he didnt have the advantage? , previously u said u didnt study mantis, so how do u know a expereinced mantis practictioner wouldnt have a advantage there?

A shuai chiao player, maybe, as they spend the majority of their time in the clinch as well. grappling is all about sensitivity, timing and technique....he can sense the same movements and do the same redirections as a chin na/mantis player.

I said, "Most altercations dont start on the ground."

Seven Star you said this, "you're right. most of them will go to a clinch though, and as stated above, grapplers are VERY comfortable there."

Refer back to the above about your experience executing a clinche on a experience mantis player.

I said , "If a mantis practioner ends on the ground grappling with a opponent, then he/she didn't use the system in the first place."

Seven Star u said, "That doesn't make any sense...Are you saying a good mantis player can't be taken down?

Seven Star i dont know what makes since about it to you? I said the system is designed if used appropriately, (if the level is obviously obtained) to be able to totally destroy your foe from the first moment of contact.


I previously said, I read in a statement in an old mantis book, that goes something like this "Once your hand touches my hand, means death for you"

actually the actual translation is, " If i use my hand I wont spare you If I am going to spare you , then I wont use my hand on you"

meaning that every strike should be in rapid motion, in combinations, one after the other, to keep the opponent confused, so that your attacks are not detected, techniques in succession after the other to utterly destroy your opponent.

Ideally, sure. But how often does it happen?

These days it doesnt happen often im sure, there is no need to.

You dont study mantis obviously and have never fought or hand the opportunity to train with mantis players that know what they are doing.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KickingMantis
I dont know what sufficiently is even necessary, Seven Star, when u are talking about teaching martial arts to the masses, Like I said previously, if one is planning to do sport bjj or judo or something for competition, then I would say learn groundfighting efficientlyand sufficiently as you can. However, the reason MOST people learn self defense is to be able to protect themselves in self defense situations, altercations, robbings, muggings, rape and etc that happens so fast, MOST people need reinforced training in basic self defense. I believe that some ground training would be helpful , so if the situation goes to the ground, they will feel comfortable there, However, getting into all the technicalities is not even immportant, and Im not going to even discuss it with you, because most people that I know that talk all theory, principle,and concept, can not apply it. Actually very few can.

I agree with that. when dealing with rapists, muggers, etc. you will may need a few basic things, like mount escapes. when a heavier person has you mounted, you need to be technical. When the person is heavier and stronger - as in the case with most rape situations - you HAVE to be technical. the training in itself reinforces the basics, and in addition, some bjj schools (mine included) drills self defense situations - it's part of the beginners class.

Theorizing, conceptualizing about what your style can do or what you can do is very different than doing it with an opponent of equal skill, weight, size, length, and years of training out of a controlled environment.

once again, you HAVE to be technical.


I am sure grapplers, judoka, etc. spend ALOT of time in the clinch, you said mantis players have no advantage there, i am assuming u know by experience. I wouldnt know because i dont know what you mean when u say a clinch. Please explain the technique, Then tell me have you spent time sparing with a experienced mantis player and attempted to execute the "clinch" and he didnt have the advantage? , previously u said u didnt study mantis, so how do u know a expereinced mantis practictioner wouldnt have a advantage there?

simply put...have you ever watched wwf wrestling? you know how occasionally they tie up, one hand around the guys neck and the other on his elbow? or two judoka grabbing eachother? that's a basic clinch. grips will vary, but that is a clinch - two people tied up. I've sparred with a couple of guys who have had mantis experience, but they hadn't been involved for any real length of time. being that you guys train punches, kicks, locks, etc... and the judoka trains throws - ALL of which are from the clinch, and matches start by going into a clinch, pretty much all of my time is spent there.


Seven Star i dont know what makes since about it to you? I said the system is designed if used appropriately, (if the level is obviously obtained) to be able to totally destroy your foe from the first moment of contact.

That's what I don't understand...that's a VERY blanket assumption. How likely is it that you will actually destroy your opponent from the first touch?


I previously said, I read in a statement in an old mantis book, that goes something like this "Once your hand touches my hand, means death for you"

actually the actual translation is, " If i use my hand I wont spare you If I am going to spare you , then I wont use my hand on you"

meaning that every strike should be in rapid motion, in combinations, one after the other, to keep the opponent confused, so that your attacks are not detected, techniques in succession after the other to utterly destroy your opponent.

The Japanese have a similar saying: ichi go ichi-e - it means "one encounter; one chance"


These days it doesnt happen often im sure, there is no need to.

agreed.


You dont study mantis obviously and have never fought or hand the opportunity to train with mantis players that know what they are doing.

you are correct. I do not study it, nor have I claimed to. To make some of the assumptions that you made are very blanket though, and I'm sure mantis108, yu shan and others will agree. On the same token, it's seems apparent that you have no working grappling experience, outside of what you have encountered in kung fu.

[KickingMantis]

I previous said , "Theorizing, conceptualizing about what your style can do or what you can do is very different than doing it with an opponent of equal skill, weight, size, length, and years of training out of a controlled environment."

You replied, " once again, you HAVE to be technical."

As long as you can apply it when u need it is all that matters man. " The proof is in the pudding. There is much to gain from talking about the theories, consepts and all, it helps tka eus to higher level in the martial arts, however, taditionalist wants to see you put it in action. We may verbally disagree about something conceptually, but if someone can make it work for them everytime. Hey! GOLLY!


(Seven Star....... "simply put...have you ever watched wwf wrestling? you know how occasionally they tie up, one hand around the guys neck and the other on his elbow? or two judoka grabbing eachother? that's a basic clinch. grips will vary, but that is a clinch - two people tied up. I've sparred with a couple of guys who have had mantis experience, but they hadn't been involved for any real length of time. being that you guys train punches, kicks, locks, etc... and the judoka trains throws - ALL of which are from the clinch, and matches start by going into a clinch, pretty much all of my time is spent there.)

Seven Star, Ok!, I am familiar with the "Clinch" and I know what you are talking about. But I have never seen a real fight or been in a situation where I or anyone else in a real life situation were there except in high school wrestling tournaments and TV Wrestling, or like you said in a "match" When mantis practicioner 'play hands or touch hands" in close, they are often in the same positions as you describe as the "clinch" and use sensitive to manuever as well.

(Seven Star....That's what I don't understand...that's a VERY blanket assumption. How likely is it that you will actually destroy your opponent from the first touch?)

Dont think I said from the first touch. You may want to go back and read what I actually said on that topic. Or maybe I didnt make my self clear.

And since you are not too familiar with the style and have only limited experience in it, as you said from individuals who have had some training but not a great deal, I will tell you of some of the characteristics of the Praying Mantis stlye.

The System requires a lot of quick hand speed and elusive footwork, executing accurate multiple attacks in a flurry, right after the other to tear and wear the opponent down. This is down by using your opponnets energy against them, trapping their centerline, and using your footwork to topple them, trip or take them to the ground in such awkward positions that the landing alone itself would cause great injury. With such lightening speed that when it happens they end up on their back without remember even attacking.

Every attack is is preceded with a block and a block is instantly preceded by an attack, When we block we attack, when we attack we block, they are all mingled together into one technique, The mantis style does not stop at one movement, and wait for your opponent to respond, it is fluid, and follows with two or more techniques, even if we are hit, we keep moving. We try to train to be comfortable in the inside attacking continously, consistently and accurately with all parts of the body. So this is the message the old proverb was trying to give,

" If I use my hand, I will not spare you, If I am going to spare you, then I wont use my hand."


(Seven Star....To make some of the assumptions that you made are very blanket though, and I'm sure mantis108, yu shan and others will agree)

Please remind me of those blanket statements?

(Seven Star...On the same token, it's seems apparent that you have no working grappling experience, outside of what you have encountered in kung fu.)

Actually, you are partially correct, I havent had any FORMAL instruction in grappling, except for the INFORMAL training I did with various guys in the military who were proficient in Judo, Akidio and JuJitsu. However, similiar to what you stated about your informal experience in Mantis with guys who, how you stated it, didn't seem to know much about what they had learned.

I dont know the extent of their training, but i know that learning a few forms, putting on gloves and kickboxing is not what mantis is about or any real kung fu for that matters. And from interacting and talking with other people, not many people actually take the time to teach their students how to use mantis and not many students really train in mantis or any other art to really understand how effective it is.

So to base your assuptions about the mantis system or any other kung fu system, from a few people who u know that may or may not be good or accomplished students in the mantis style, a chat forum and maybe a few books and videos you may have read or viewed and try and compare it to the little BJJ or other grappling arts you do know is a blanket perspective.

(Seven Star...To make some of the assumptions that you made are very blanket though, and I'm sure mantis108, yu shan and others will agree.)

Again which statements are those? If I have made blanket statements and others dont agree, they have every right to.
I dont expect for others to agree with everything I am saying. As I dont agree with everything that you or others say on here.It is our right to belief as we wish, doesnt make it right or wrong. it just is. We will all continue to make statements and have beliefs until we have an experience that may change our mind.

All Tae Kon Do students dont agree, All Wing Chun Students dont agree, All Christians dont agree, All politicians dont agree. Doesnt make me convert to Buddhism, or change my political affiliation, martial art style or school.

[isol8d]

Originally posted by SevenStar


yeah, I agree. On that last point though - watch the two untrained fighters. It's probable that ene will try to tackle, or they will end up in a clinch fall/drag eachother down.

In my life experience, that statement is full of hyperbole.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

This seems to be a recurring theme. Grapplers insisting you have to have extensive ground training to survive a real fight. Others insisting their training provides the means to deal with any situation (my opinion although learning grappling definitely helps). Generally, the ones involved in the discussion are not cross trained so their arguement is biased. I think what's needed is for a few volunteers from each side get together and see what the other side has to offer. I'm sure a friendly exchange of techniques would be enlightening to all.

[KickingMantis]

I agree that experience in a few styles, very different from your own, can only help you improve your own style and give you an advantage if you have reached some level of proficiency in a main style. I can see how ground fighting and grappling can be beneficial.

The issue is, is that students with 1-2 years of experience, if that , in about 3-4 different styles, who may or may not be proficient in those, here on the mantis forum trying to compare and anaylsis the mantis style with other styles, which they have no real experience in any of them, cross training with and getting an idea of what mantis is suppose to be like, from other beginner, intermediate or inexperienced mantis students and making statements about they think it is.

Its sort like taking the first year of Psychology, the first year of a Chemistry, the first year of Biology, and trying to debate about Physics.

In my opinion it's better to get a degree in an area of study, thats going to provide you with a main focus and at the same time introducing you to other areas that can compliment what you are learning. Then you can appreciate any area of study and begin to look at the benefits of all arts and how it may or may not apply to your own.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KickingMantis

Seven Star, Ok!, I am familiar with the "Clinch" and I know what you are talking about. But I have never seen a real fight or been in a situation where I or anyone else in a real life situation were there except in high school wrestling tournaments and TV Wrestling, or like you said in a "match" When mantis practicioner 'play hands or touch hands" in close, they are often in the same positions as you describe as the "clinch" and use sensitive to manuever as well.

Almost every fight I've seen has gone to a clinch, and a few that I've been in. when dealing with untrained fighters, they tend to flail, lose balance, etc. as I stated earlier in this thread. They fall into eachother, intentionally drag eachother down, etc.

Dont think I said from the first touch. You may want to go back and read what I actually said on that topic. Or maybe I didnt make my self clear.

to be exact, you said "destroy your for from the first moment of contact", and that was in response to why a mantis player should never end up on the ground.


And since you are not too familiar with the style and have only limited experience in it, as you said from individuals who have had some training but not a great deal, I will tell you of some of the characteristics of the Praying Mantis stlye.

The System requires a lot of quick hand speed and elusive footwork, executing accurate multiple attacks in a flurry, right after the other to tear and wear the opponent down. This is down by using your opponnets energy against them, trapping their centerline, and using your footwork to topple them, trip or take them to the ground in such awkward positions that the landing alone itself would cause great injury. With such lightening speed that when it happens they end up on their back without remember even attacking.

Every attack is is preceded with a block and a block is instantly preceded by an attack, When we block we attack, when we attack we block, they are all mingled together into one technique, The mantis style does not stop at one movement, and wait for your opponent to respond, it is fluid, and follows with two or more techniques, even if we are hit, we keep moving. We try to train to be comfortable in the inside attacking continously, consistently and accurately with all parts of the body. So this is the message the old proverb was trying to give,

thanks for that. That was pretty much the take I had, except for the block/attack/block scheme. the rest actually sounds similar to muay thai.


Please remind me of those blanket statements?

1. you will dominate your opponent from the first moment of contact, if you are using the style correctly.

2. If a mantis practioner ends on the ground grappling with a opponent, then he/she didn't use the system in the first place.


(Seven Star...On the same token, it's seems apparent that you have no working grappling experience, outside of what you have encountered in kung fu.)

Actually, you are partially correct, I havent had any FORMAL instruction in grappling, except for the INFORMAL training I did with various guys in the military who were proficient in Judo, Akidio and JuJitsu. However, similiar to what you stated about your informal experience in Mantis with guys who, how you stated it, didn't seem to know much about what they had learned.

I dont know the extent of their training, but i know that learning a few forms, putting on gloves and kickboxing is not what mantis is about or any real kung fu for that matters. And from interacting and talking with other people, not many people actually take the time to teach their students how to use mantis and not many students really train in mantis or any other art to really understand how effective it is.

So to base your assuptions about the mantis system or any other kung fu system, from a few people who u know that may or may not be good or accomplished students in the mantis style, a chat forum and maybe a few books and videos you may have read or viewed and try and compare it to the little BJJ or other grappling arts you do know is a blanket perspective.

I dont expect for others to agree with everything I am saying. As I dont agree with everything that you or others say on here.It is our right to belief as we wish, doesnt make it right or wrong. it just is. We will all continue to make statements and have beliefs until we have an experience that may change our mind.

All Tae Kon Do students dont agree, All Wing Chun Students dont agree, All Christians dont agree, All politicians dont agree. Doesnt make me convert to Buddhism, or change my political affiliation, martial art style or school.

agreed.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
This seems to be a recurring theme. Grapplers insisting you have to have extensive ground training to survive a real fight.

I don't insist that. I insist that you do need ground training, but that training can come from rolling with friends who train in grappling - somone who can correct you, as that is the area of their expertise. I wouldn't ask them how to trap - I'd go to a CMA for that.

I think what's needed is for a few volunteers from each side get together and see what the other side has to offer. I'm sure a friendly exchange of techniques would be enlightening to all.


I agree with that. One day when I'm not feeling to lazy to drive, I want to head up to yu shan's and spend a few hours up there (he's about 3 hours away from me.)

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KickingMantis

The issue is, is that students with 1-2 years of experience, if that , in about 3-4 different styles, who may or may not be proficient in those, here on the mantis forum trying to compare and anaylsis the mantis style with other styles, which they have no real experience in any of them, cross training with and getting an idea of what mantis is suppose to be like, from other beginner, intermediate or inexperienced mantis students and making statements about they think it is.


Actually, that's not the issue. It was a subtopic that was brought up, and only dealing in one specific area - the clinch, which happens to to be an area I spend most of my time in. Do you train weapons? do you strike? do you kick? do you work standing locks? If you do, then your time is divided. In judo, I am always in the clinch. everything stems from it. so naturally, I would spend more time in it than a mantis guy. That is the only analysis I have made.


in bjj, much of my time is in a clinch, though not as much as judo, and I also spend time in the clinch in MT.

and, you misquoted my experience, but I don't care about that. :o :p :D

[KickingMantis]

Please remind me of those blanket statements?

(1. you will dominate your opponent from the first moment of contact, if you are using the style correctly.)


I dont think that I said "I Will" do anything, however, I would love to be in such a position in my current trainnig in the mantis style. Not quite there


2. If a mantis practioner ends on the ground grappling with a opponent, then he/she didn't use the system in the first place.


I was simply referring to a proverb that I quoted several times already. go back and read it man. the system is designed in a way to go through your opponent. refer back to the basic characteristics of the style that I shared with you earlier

[SevenStar]

yeah, I know. The first time you made that statement though, you didn't say it was a proverb. That's why I was questioning it. After you stated the proverb, I knew what you were talking about, but you asked which blanket statements you made, so I went back to the original post and....screw it, I'm all confused now. :D

[KickingMantis]

So am I.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by KickingMantis
Its sort like taking the first year of Psychology, the first year of a Chemistry, the first year of Biology, and trying to debate about Physics. No, cross-training is more like getting an undergraduate degree where you specialize in one major, but also take a variety of other classes to round out your education. Martial arts should be the same way. That way if, say a Mantis practitioner with a year or two of training faces a groundfighting specialist, he will be somewhat familiar with what the groundfighter is doing and will at least have a chance when taken to the ground.

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
[B}That way if, say a Mantis practitioner with a year or two of training faces a groundfighting specialist, he will be somewhat familiar with what the groundfighter is doing and will at least have a chance when taken to the ground. [/B]

I see where you are coming from with this statement.

I suppose the reverse could be said to be true as well then?

A Ground-fighter might better spend this time cross-training than a single ground-fighting art when coming up against a Mantis specialist?


I'd say that a mantis practitioner (Any art practitioner) with two years training (read: any mantis practitioner with Nth amount of time) time should get to familiarizing him/herself with what the system has to offer in all aspects rather than waste his/her time with partial-arts (pun intended).

But of course as always, its just _my opinion_.

Do what you have to do to get what you want. Its not the same
for everyone.
~Best Wishes,
BTL

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by BeiTangLang
A Ground-fighter might better spend this time cross-training than a single ground-fighting art when coming up against a Mantis specialist?
Exactly.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

BeiTangLang
"partial-arts" - I love it! Best description of bouncing from one school/style to the next. Looks like we have a winner here. Permission to use freely, sir?

Yu shan
Sounds like you're about to get 'clinched'. At least now you know his strength and what to watch out for.

SevenStar
Same here. I have a few friends the grapple but I haven't found the time to visit and exchange. I got some free time now, just need to get off my butt to see how fast they put me back on it.

[KickingMantis]

Well said Wang.

[BeiTangLang]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
BeiTangLang
"partial-arts" - I love it! Best description of bouncing from one school/style to the next. Looks like we have a winner here. Permission to use freely, sir?


In all honesty that was a big borrow from my sifuI'm sure he wouldn't mind at all. :)