check out these clips

[Unmatchable]

http://www.rubytopaz.com/videos.htm

[shrub]

He is doing Wing Chun, not Tai Chi push hand/sparring.

[Liokault]

Every thing I hate about 99% of tai chi clubs is shown here.

[QuaiJohnCain]

How come the worst Taiji people come out of the UK? What the hell's going on over there?

[GroungJing]

Yea......These look like they come from Earl Montaigue's school of Taiji thought.

Earl Montaigue's Taijiquan is always a hot topic on the Internet.


Montaigue's Taijiquan has a lot more strikes than other Yang styles. I've seen it before and yea it looks like he's drawn a lot of his understanding of the form (the quan) from Wing chun applications or his Bagua...whatever one came first.

Sometimes he can make some interesting comments..


I personally don't have a problem with him or what he's been doing. He's been studying Yang style Taijiquan for thirty years. If this is his version, then this is "HIS" version.
He has the experience and just needs to come out and say so.......If it works for him or someone else cool! I'm not sure its traditional Yang family style....but heck what is?

I hail from the Chen Fu side and although that style differs with intent and applications (for the most part) with Earl Montaigue's,
he does teach a martial side. It may not be what guys like myself or others that hail from the Fu Zhong Wen side have been trained in, but..... Montaigue's men train martially (which is more than many Yang and Wu schools do.)


What few people in the west know is that there are so many different styles of Taijiquan other than Chen, Wu, Yang and Sun in China, not to mention all the sub branches these respected styles have spawned. For all I know Montiague learned his Yang style from a hybrid master. In the end it doesn't matter...if it works you ...then it works you.....Its a bonus if you enjoy it!

[Liokault]

How come the worst Taiji people come out of the UK? What the hell's going on over there?

That dog aint gunna hunt round here boy....these guys are in New England not the UK from what I can make out.

[QuaiJohnCain]

My mistake. :rolleyes:

[Liokault]

Go to this link HERE (http://www.rubytopaz.com/index.html)

And tell me you think this is an English man!

[QuaiJohnCain]

All I can say is, the man has fantastic self confidence...

[Liokault]

All I can say is, the man has fantastic self confidence...

Yup, and Steve has none. I want the next clip they post to be titled "Steve twats Mark in the face for repeatedly pushing him over".

[shaolinboxer]

It's always impressive to see a guy with a large weight advantage shove a smaller guy.

[Syd]

Ground Jing,

As a student of Erle's system I might add that you don't know what your talking about in his regard. it's a nice little rant but it helps if you get some of the facts straight. If you need straightening out, which you do, I suggest you take a look at his website which gives you all the facts you need about who he trained with over the years and where his art comes from.

His main teacher was Chang Yiu Chun who was a cousin to the Yangs and who trained under Yang Shou Hou along side Chen Pan Ling. Chen Pan Ling and Erle's Taijiquan look almost the same. I don't think there was any hybrid here. It is also well known that Yang Shou Hou preserved his fathers art whereas Yang Cheng Fu hugely altered it.

In our school we learn both the Yang Cheng Fu long form 108 (For health) as well as the old Yang styles of Yang Lu Chan (For Combat). If you don't recognize many of the applications in Erle's system then perhaps thats because your getting applications out of Yang Cheng Fu's form which was altered from a combat form to a health and healing form, rather than from the Old Yang combat forms.

Either way, some research mightn't go astray...

Best, Syd

[Ray Pina]

Who's perfect?

There is nothing more that I hate then wanting to "push hands" with taiji guys who don't want to include strikes or any type of final, "I can beat your a$$" movements.

Real simple: Touching/sticking hand, pushing hand, hitting hand. You need all three!

The first example of that man throwing the guy was actually pretty good.

Contact, stuck, found an in, DROVE OFF THE BACK LEG, moved the guy, than finished his push with his arms. (the other two his weight was going back a bit and had more to do with the other anticipating a hit).

Yes, the guy was much bigger. So what? Sometimes you get to have an advantage, too.

There is so much criticism here, how does anyone learn?

[backbreaker]

I don't think anyone is saying his taiji is not martial or he doesn't emphasize spariing techniques. They're probably saying we didn't see any redirection of the opponent's force back into the opponent. Some people here are probably skeptical of the guy's peng jin and wonder if he really uses the dantien when shifting weight. Although I've been told you can't tell if somone has internal by looking, It appeared to be strength (ineffective) based rather than sung and peng based

[Ray Pina]

I don't like to get caught up with stuff like, "redirect their force back to them" and what not. Does the guy study taiji? Looks like he can defend himself quite well. Room to improve? Of course! I'd start with the wardrobe and man breasts before his technique.

There are VERY few people that I have seen who can do with taiji what they say you're supposed to do .... and VERY few who can fight.

I go in from time to time to steal an idea or two ... I'll save the soft-soft for after I become hard as hell with Hsing-I, clever as a fox with Ba Gua, and as hard to stop and see coming as the U.S. militray via E-Chuan. I just don't get visions of graneur ... It's still a fight! You have to go in there and deal with a blow, maybe take one, get good position and finish it off.

Too much philosophising about what's what might work the grey matter but not much else.

[daohong]

these clips are a disaster, and I am glad to see so many people agree on this. The big guy's wing chun is pretty bad looking too. Besides , who would stand there and exchange slaps with him like that and allow a throw? why not step out and try again with some feet? americans.....

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Syd
Ground Jing,

As a student of Erle's system I might add that you don't know what your talking about in his regard. it's a nice little rant but it helps if you get some of the facts straight.
Best, Syd




Really I’m ranting…? That’s funny I thought I was sticking up for Erle Montague and the people that follow him.

I wonder if you have ever heard the phrase “Don’t bite the hand the feeds you”.

Oh…. and here is a true rant!

First, Do you know what Yang Shou Hou's form really looks like? Because what Montague does is nothing like Yang Shou Hou’s


Montague’s main teacher was guy named Chang Yiu Chun who was a cousin to the Yang’s and who trained under Yang Shou Hou along side Chen Pan Ling?

Hmmm…funny there is no proof that this man has ever existed. No one from the Yang’s has ever said he’s existed either. Montague claims he met and trained with the man in the 1960’s in a park in England. Yet, the world has never seen this great master that passed on all of his secrets to a westerner. Should there be a picture or something on Erle’s site dedicated to this man?


Chen Pan Ling was born in Henan Province and lived much of his life in Fukien, learning Shaolin and a huge list of others arts before leaving the mainland to Taiwan. Yang Shou Hou as far as I know never really set up shop in Fukien, not long enough for Chen Pan ling to really study Yang style. Yes, Yang shou Hou did teach Chen pan ling for a short time, however his main Tajiquan influence comes from Wu Jian Quan, Xu Yu Sheng. As far as his systems origins it proves a mystery “oh I forgot” he said he created it. It floated, because he was highly respected and still is in Taiwan.

So, how is it that Montigue’s style looks like Chen Pan ling’s?

Did he train with a cousin of Chen Pan ling too?

By the way which form are we talking about?

Montigue’s sported/floated at least three main forms in his system of Yang style Taijiquan throughout the years and one of them he has stated is the actual Lu Chan form!

The world doesn’t know what the “true” Yang Lu Chan form is, only indoor students learned this if it actually ever exsisted (his family and a select few others and its not well documented who learned what) and as far as the Yang family is concerned it’s the form the Chen Fu taught.

Yang Shou Hou only passed down his art to a few respected well-documented disciples (for reasons we don’t need to go into here) I’m at a lost to find where this Chang Yiu Chun is on the roles and what was he doing in England in the sixties. Shou Hou style is close to/or probably is the style Yang Jing Ming practices. Last time I checked Montigue's style looks and acts nothing like this in form and in applicative means. Unless he’s teaching something new or doing something I’ve never seen him do before.

Nor does Montague’s system look similar to Funei style Taijiquan. This Funei style is the same style Yang Lu Chan taught the Imperial palace guards. Again this style is similar to the Chen fu and actual Shou Hou style in form and application. Li Zhen the current linage holder can back up his claims with paper and proof.

I was trying to stick up for you guys. I believe Erle Montigues is legit in skill, Heck he's been studying some form of martial art for thirty years he has to know something. Taijiquan is very broad and there is plenty of room for all.

I'm not sure where you have gotten your information, check your sources, and don't assume everyone is trying to attack your way of doing things.


Whew!!!! NOW THAT WAS A RANT!

[CD Lee]

Maybe I have just not been around enough or something. But these clips of the sparring and push hands were not really what I expected.

I mean, the guy in blue, he had no root, was bending his head forward a lot, bending the back. The one thing I don't get, and this could be because I don't understand their excersice, is why is the guy in blue, never angling the incoming energy from the big guy?

Right? Should the guy in blue go force on force with the huge guy? Why does he not turn his waist, and and shift his weight, or at the very least, lift up under the guys pushing arms to uproot his power some?

In the sparring, there was NO angular moves? Everything was striaght in straight back.

Ok, so I am not running this little guy down, because he looks real new. But why would the teacher continue to let this happen over and over and over? He should be helping the guy. Someone asked how are we supposed to learn. At least in my opinion, you do it wrong, and the teacher shows what's going on and how to do it right.

[Syd]

Ground Jing,

Thanks for your response, I'm eager to respond but for fear of dragging this thread any further off topic I would apreciate it if you shoot me your e-mail address so I can respond in like kind, off board.

psi_fan@yahoo.com

Best, Syd

[RSA]

Evolution fist, You said the first clip was good and that the guy pushed off with his back leg. The guy is a joke. Yeah maybe he did push off with his back leg but if you look more closely you will notice that his back heel comes completely off the ground. There goes his root. He should adjust his back leg by sliding forward but there is no way his heel should come off the ground at any time.

[Syd]

Ok I'll post here regardless...

Really I’m ranting…? That’s funny I thought I was sticking up for Erle Montague and the people that follow him.

I didn't mean rant in a derogatory way. Infact I rant all the time and use the term rather as an expression of literary effection more than anything else. It seemed to me that you were giving the Montaigue system a backhanded compliment more than anything else, rather than actually sticking up for it.

I wonder if you have ever heard the phrase “Don’t bite the hand the feeds you”.

Yes I have, but I hope that based on the above explanation you'll understand my objection to some of the things you stated.

Oh…. and here is a true rant!

O.k

First, Do you know what Yang Shou Hou's form really looks like? Because what Montague does is nothing like Yang Shou Hou’s

Chang Yiu Chun trained under Shou Hou and it is taught in our system that it comes direct from Shou Hou. I think if you aim to argue whether Shou Hou's form looks nothing like what Erle does then you better argue the point with him. Until you can provide the evidence to support that statement it won't really cut any ice with me.

Montague’s main teacher was guy named Chang Yiu Chun who was a cousin to the Yang’s and who trained under Yang Shou Hou along side Chen Pan Ling?

I don't know whether he trained at the same time as Chen Pan Ling, but rather what I mean is that they were fellow See Hin.

Hmmm…funny there is no proof that this man has ever existed. No one from the Yang’s has ever said he’s existed either.

Well it's a difficult thing to get to the bottom of when infact Chang Yiu Chun was an illegal immigrant to Australia at the time and might have been under a false name. Australia being in the South East Asian Pacific, it is a very common occurance for us to have Asian illegals from every part of Asia. Chang Yiu Chun reportedly came illegally on a boat. If you know anything about the state of Australian foreign affairs and immigration, the boat people issue has been a massive political problem and issue for over 20 years. The way that many illegals enter our country is by the same methods that Chang Yiu Chun employed and these are people who are very careful to guard their true indentity or names lest they be shipped back to whence they came. Changing your name is the most common method of jamming the works for a hostile Immigration department. I feel that it is important for you to have atleast a little understanding of the political and social aspects of Chang Yiu Chuns circumstances and how it was that Erle came to know him.

...Continued...

[Syd]

Montague claims he met and trained with the man in the 1960’s in a park in England. Yet, the world has never seen this great master that passed on all of his secrets to a westerner. Should there be a picture or something on Erle’s site dedicated to this man?

Thats incorrect. Erle met Chang Yiu Chun in a park in Australia when he was back here in the early 80's while acting as a cheuffuer or driver. It is not uncommon for teachers or masters, particularly as early on in the game as 1980! - to be guarded about what they know and who they knew it from. Chang was the classic mystery man who was teaching Erle in a typical closed door fashion. The guy wasn't interested in ego and letting the world know he was there, he was merely living the life of Taijiquan and trying to survive as an illegal immigrant. It's not surprising that Chang wasn't totally forthcoming about his real name or anything else given his circumstances. If you want a photograph or picture Paul Brecher has one of Chang on his website. As to passing everything on to the world etc etc etc, this was not his interest. It's like saying every single person who has something exceptional to say should be a best selling writer!

Chen Pan Ling was born in Henan Province and lived much of his life in Fukien, learning Shaolin and a huge list of others arts before leaving the mainland to Taiwan. Yang Shou Hou as far as I know never really set up shop in Fukien, not long enough for Chen Pan ling to really study Yang style. Yes, Yang shou Hou did teach Chen pan ling for a short time, however his main Tajiquan influence comes from Wu Jian Quan, Xu Yu Sheng. As far as his systems origins it proves a mystery “oh I forgot” he said he created it. It floated, because he was highly respected and still is in Taiwan.

Perhaps, perhaps not... I haven not seen the information where Chen Pan Ling states he created his own style?

So, how is it that Montigue’s style looks like Chen Pan ling’s?

I told you, it's not the same but it shares many similar attributes. Both Chang and Chen trained under Yang Shou Hou... thats how.

Did he train with a cousin of Chen Pan ling too?

Now your being silly...

By the way which form are we talking about?

We are talking about Erle's Old Yang Style. It should be noted that there are many other things that Chang taught Erle which Erle attributes to Chang and nobody else.

Montigue’s sported/floated at least three main forms in his system of Yang style Taijiquan throughout the years and one of them he has stated is the actual Lu Chan form!

Which three are you talking about? And yes the main form of Old Yang Style is the one that is also known as the Yang Lu Chan form. This is the one that comes down from the Yang Shou Hou side but it is agree'd that Shou Hou probably altered certain minor things.

The world doesn’t know what the “true” Yang Lu Chan form is, only indoor students learned this if it actually ever exsisted (his family and a select few others and its not well documented who learned what) and as far as the Yang family is concerned it’s the form the Chen Fu taught.

Chang Yiu Chun was such an indoor student of Yang Shou Hou. His real name is not known due to his immigration status and at the age he was at there were scant records available back in China for Erle to reasearch after Chang's death after his return to China in the late 80's. It is interesting to note that in a recent article from an official Yang Family member in a magazine called Martial Arts Insider (Not inside Kung Fu) he was quoted as saying...

"What is missing from Taijiquan today is alive and well outside the Yang Family System"

I think this is a clear indication that certain aspects of the Yang system have been allowed to fall away due to the great western popularity of the health art of Yang Chang Fu. They understand that it's better to consolidate with the Cheng Fu system because this is where the majority of the wests understanding of Yang Style Taijiquan exists. As I said before in our system we learn both the Cheng Fu and the Old Yang Style systems which come down from the Shou Hou side. The Yang family openly recongnize a standardized system which has been chosen to represent their family art... namely Yang Cheng Fu's.

Yang Shou Hou only passed down his art to a few respected well-documented disciples (for reasons we don’t need to go into here) I’m at a lost to find where this Chang Yiu Chun is on the roles and what was he doing in England in the sixties.

Again the facts are wrong and incorrect about Chang Yiu Chun. O.k then, if the well documented disciples are so well documented by all means list them with sources?

Shou Hou style is close to/or probably is the style Yang Jing Ming practices.

What gave you that idea? I am actually very respectful of Yang Jwing Ming and like what he does but where do you get the source material to state that?

Last time I checked Montigue's style looks and acts nothing like this in form and in applicative means. Unless he’s teaching something new or doing something I’ve never seen him do before.

I think it's clear that because you don't know or haven't seen the art elsewhere you decry it as in-authentic. But to me thats like saying upon discovery of a lost book, that because nobody has seen this book before that it can't be real and the infomation therein is useless. I'll bet that for arguements sake if somebody came out with totally irrefutale, documented proof and record of Yang Lu Chan's original Taijiquan that people would still find a way to knock it down and call it fakery and instead support their arguments based on the idea that it doesn't match their own modern day versions of Taijiquan! What a total joke! *L*

Nor does Montague’s system look similar to Funei style Taijiquan. This Funei style is the same style Yang Lu Chan taught the Imperial palace guards. Again this style is similar to the Chen fu and actual Shou Hou style in form and application. Li Zhen the current linage holder can back up his claims with paper and proof.

It is known that there were two frames learned, taught and practiced in the Yang family at the time the Palace guards were taught, not just one. I could say that the Old Yang Style is similar to the Cheng Fu style, afterall there are similarities but even so large differences also.

I was trying to stick up for you guys. I believe Erle Montigues is legit in skill, Heck he's been studying some form of martial art for thirty years he has to know something. Taijiquan is very broad and there is plenty of room for all.

Seemed like a backhanded compliment to me which ended with an attitude of "I practice the real fighting art of Taijiquan, which is the Yang Cheng Fu style!". Well where I come from Yang Cheng Fu's forms are health forms which have had all their martial applications and fajin stripped from them! Show me where in the Yang Cheng Fu forms that you issue fajin or strike points? I will show you both the Old Yang Style in comparison side by side with the Cheng Fu style and point out each form, where the original martial applications were and where Cheng Fu changed them and softened them out.

I'm not sure where you have gotten your information, check your sources, and don't assume everyone is trying to attack your way of doing things.

I didn't assume you were attacking but rather you superior approach garnered my response. I have the benefit of something you do not, the practice of the arts of both Cheng Fu and Shou Hou. If you think the art of Shou Hou is the same as Cheng Fu I'd say there's no point continuing the discussion.

Whew!!!! NOW THAT WAS A RANT!

Yup...

[backbreaker]

This side by side comparison might be interesting.

[extrajoseph]

Originally posted by Syd
Ground Jing,

As a student of Erle's system I might add that you don't know what your talking about in his regard. it's a nice little rant but it helps if you get some of the facts straight. If you need straightening out, which you do, I suggest you take a look at his website which gives you all the facts you need about who he trained with over the years and where his art comes from.

Best, Syd


Syd,

Looks like you are the one who needs to be straighten out, you should get in touch with Tony Ward (face to face contact is the best) and find out something about Erle from someone who knows his past thoroughly. If Tony is willing to talk, you will get some straight answers that is not on Erle's website, but it wont be easy, icey water runs deep.

http://tai-chiworks.com/teachers.php

Good luck.

[brassmonkey]

Syd you remind me of the illustrious Sam Wiley. Take that as a compliment as Sam is a senior student of Erle's in USA.

Only 1 thing I see repeated alot on here i"d like to comment on, though you've certainly put out alot of great material to work with as always Syd.

"Yang Cheng Fu's forms are health forms which have had all their martial applications and fajin stripped from them! Show me where in the Yang Cheng Fu forms that you issue fajin or strike points? I will show you both the Old Yang Style in comparison side by side with the Cheng Fu style and point out each form, where the original martial applications were and where Cheng Fu changed them and softened them out."

I remember Sam Wiley pointing out the difference between YCF's and YLC's form was a few extra moves on YLC's form with fajing. You take out a few moves and fajing and its no longer relevant for fighting eh? Guess what.....I don't think many people on these boards even know what the hell fajing is! It would be more accurate to state that YCF's form has no change of pace fajing in it. However if you know what fajing is or how to do it, why can't it be done at the same speed as the rest of the form? Yes, yes it can be done and should be.

Syd please put up that side by side comparison this would truly make my day.

[brassmonkey]

http://www.tai-chi-chuan.demon.co.uk

"So we have three levels of fa-jin, the first is the basic shake the waist, shift the weight and shout type of Big fa-jin for which we need to have all the Internal Principles of Posture operating smoothly.This Big fa-jin is like a tiger impacting with its prey and can be made to happen, you can do this fa-jin, it comes from you.

The second more advanced and more internal type is the Small fa-jin which is only possible when we have the Internal Principles of Movement all operating simultaneously in an integrated way.This Small fa-jin is like a snake striking and cannot be made to happen, this fa-jin does you, it comes through you.

Getting to this stage in my fa-jin journey took me ten years, it was a very long way to go to get something that cant be seen.I got there because I met Erle back in 1987 just by the beach near byron bay in eastern Oz and he showed me the whole of Yang Lu chans Old Yang Style Tai Chi Long Form with the Fa-jin. It was like a treasure map with the route clearly marked out on it. So its now ten years later, Ive followed Erles foot steps in the sand and now Im walking into the third most advanced type of fa-jin that happens at the Hao Chuan level, I call this the Vibrating Palm Fa-jin.

To get to this third level of fa-jin one needs to have the third set of internal principles that I have decided to call Internal Principles of Intention. At this level I have found that a certain type of energetic momentum has accumulated over the years and this last set of principles although very small have a very big effect. They tip the balance and cause the Vibrating Palm fa-jin to occur. "


but seeing is better then reading:
www.taijiworld.com/CLIPS/67.WMV www.taijiworld.com/CLIPS/221.ASF

Discuss

[Syd]

Extrajoseph,

Looks like you are the one who needs to be straighten out, you should get in touch with Tony Ward (face to face contact is the best) and find out something about Erle from someone who knows his past thoroughly.

Hey brother, If what I have been told directly and by Erle are baloney it's not like I am not open to being corrected; actually I am. But it's going to take more than the usual trolling to put me straight, thats all. I know of Tony and would very much like to get to the bottom of certain things for myself.

As you say, if it's going to be hard to get the facts out of him (Tony) and you seem to know something I don't, by all means mail me at my address above and clue me in? I am quite serious when I say I am open to hearing a different story and if it bears out then I won't hesitate to change my tune and retract my ill gotten facts.

Best, Syd

[Syd]

Brass,

I remember Sam Wiley pointing out the difference between YCF's and YLC's form was a few extra moves on YLC's form with fajing.

Well I don't think I'd agree with that at all and since Saw isn't here to confirm or refute your paraphrasing something he is supposed to have said I'll reserve judgement on this.

The differences are far mosre complex than just a couple of moves IMHO, it is about how the moves are expressed and the fact that many movements in Cheng Fu form have bits missing that are found in the Old Yang.

You take out a few moves and fajing and its no longer relevant for fighting eh?

If thats your simplistic version of the thing I would disagree with this and everything that you base this premise on.

Guess what.....I don't think many people on these boards even know what the hell fajing is!

What do you want me to do about it? Tell them to go read the classics...

It would be more accurate to state that YCF's form has no change of pace fajing in it. However if you know what fajing is or how to do it, why can't it be done at the same speed as the rest of the form? Yes, yes it can be done and should be.

Well if thats how you like to perform fajin in your own system or forms then who am I to say different? It is not a teaching in what I have learned and traditionally I have never seen anybody doing Cheng Fu forms performing fajin, by it's very nature fajin is explosive.

Syd please put up that side by side comparison this would truly make my day.

I said I'd show it as in demonstrate it, I'm not going to waste hours writing it all up, it's pretty obvious. I've nothing to prove on that count.

Best to ya...

[Syd]

Since we're all out on the table and openly challenging teachers and lineage why not play the ball and openly state your own teacher, system and lineage?

Brassmonkey? Let's see it then...

Joseph? How bout it?

Anybody else?

That way we'll all be out in the open and not criticizing whilst bringing nothing of our own to the table of scrutiny...;)

[brassmonkey]

lol you'll just have to settle using my own words to bash as your looking to do. What I don't give you enough material to work with, you have to bash my teacher whom you don't know? If you didnt make ridiculous statement's I would have no ammo.

My comments are usually directed at your words, not Erle's however I included some of his work to show where your coming from.

Judge me on what I say not on my teacher's rep. If my words are full of sh*t please check me on it.

Ya never know, I could be a book learned Tai Chi Master like Wong Kit but at least he learned from the very best TCC Master's books.

[backbreaker]

Yang style-

Yang chengFu , to Cheng man Ching , to Tchoung ta Tchen , to my teacher who gave me permission to teach CMC style at college. I don't teach it or really practice it at all now.


Chen style-

Chen Zhoukui , to Ma Hong ,to a teacher in Canada I learned for 2 years from

[Syd]

lol you'll just have to settle using my own words to bash as your looking to do.

Seems the only person with something to hide here is you...

My comments are usually directed at your words, not Erle's.

Thats funny because most of what I have to say comes from my teachings of Erle and his system. You attack me and you attack Erle, it's more or less the same thing, though you would try to deviate.

however I included some of his work to show where your coming from.

I have no idea what your angle is, whether you are genuinely sarcastic or just ambivialent.

Judge me on what I say not on my teacher's rep. If my words are full of sh*t please check me on it.

You don't seem to say anything and back up what you do say with nothing. How can I judge something without substance?

Ya never know, I could be a book learned Tai Chi Master like Wong Kit but at least he learned from the very best TCC Master's books.

Another ambiguous statement which say's nothing and leaves us yet again no-where. Yet again you won't be open, honest and above board about where you draw your training and teachings from and you expect that based on this myself or others should defer to some greater knowledge which dare not reveal it's origins?

Pah! ....;

[Syd]

Thanks Backbreaker for your open response, apreciated.

[brassmonkey]

"You don't seem to say anything and back up what you do say with nothing. How can I judge something without substance?"

well when I disagreed with your theory about jumping out of a sweep how can I back that up if your not willing to test it outside your classmates, seniors and teachers who also believe it like you stated.

If you do a search on my posts you'll see what I believe and don't believe. Check out what I've praised on here. A few months back I posted what I believe to be a very good martial arts teacher out of all places Australia, a Mr. Raymond Floro. Check out my comments on that thread and you'll see better where I come from.

[backbreaker]

A video from Wong Kiew Kit's page. The awesome power of dragon qigong.

http://www.wahnam.com/video/videos/ShaolinWahnamInstitute07.wmv

[Syd]

well when I disagreed with your theory about jumping out of a sweep how can I back that up if your not willing to test it outside your classmates, seniors and teachers who also believe it like you stated.

It's not just my own thoughts on the application or only Erle's. You can find similar applications to this in Yang Jwing Mings books and video's also. As I stated before it was but one such possible application, not the be all and end all.

If someone did decided to sweep me and I jumped to avoid the leg sweep I would clearly land my structure afterwards right down ontop of my opponent. This would allow any number of follow up techniques in order to finish off. I'm not quite sure what seems so outlandish about jumping in order to evade a sweep.

if you do a search on my posts you'll see what I believe and don't believe.

I want to know what you base your beliefs on. I want to know where you get the belief that your idea's are the only idea's relevent to Taiji applications. I don't care for yet another unfounded group of writings which remain perpetually without substance or background.

Check out what I've praised on here.

Again, you come on with this air that what you approve of has worth and nothing else will do. Add to this the fact that you supply no evidence of you training or learning, your teachers or anything else. I repeat once more, without any of this, by what right do you assume the role of sole judge and authority on whats valid and what isn't?

A few months back I posted what I believe to be a very good martial arts teacher out of all places Australia, a Mr. Raymond Floro. Check out my comments on that thread and you'll see better where I come from.

Great... but it's still meaningless without your open disclosure... it's insubstantial and without any credibility whatsoever. I have nothing against you, as I have stated before, but this continual evasiveness of supporting info is getting you no further down the road to crediblity.

It's always easy to criticize another man's art when you won't disclose or reveal your own. Whats to hide?

Sorry...

[Syd]

Thats a very interesting clip of Wong... shame it's so muddy.

[bob10]

Fa jing in the Cheng Fu lineage, at least as taught by his son Yang Sau Cheung is not in the large frame form. This is because the large frame is designed as a beginner form to stretch and strengthen.

Fa jing is practiced in solos drills, individual postures taken from the form and drilled explosively. It is also present in the fast set (long boxing) which is a fast/slow set and the old Yang from (which is different from Erle's). . There is also the small frame form, all done at speed. The broadsword is also practiced at speed.

FJ is also developed through staff drills and dynamic push hands.

cheers

[Ray Pina]

Maybe his heal comes up .... so what? When you practice it better be down -- 100%. But when it comes to go live, how much can you bring with you? I doubt you bring and can maintain 100% perfection in movement. If you bring 75% you're pretty good already. Ask musicians who play for large crowds how much they lose to pressure.

"why not step out and try again with some feet? americans": This is the dumbest thing I've read here! Doesn't the other guy have feet, too. If he beats your hands he has an advanatge ... pick up your foot and chances are you'll go down.... As for "Americans", I can't recall the last time I've seen a Taiwainies champ in, well, anything .... forget boxing, K1, Pride, Wrestling, UFC .... and on and on and on and on.

We have the same skill set -- probbaly better now -- and we grow them bigger over here. You need more McDonalds.

[RSA]

Maybe his heel comes up so what. Your response says it all.

[Ray Pina]

I know the important of driving off the heal. I won't use the word root though, because I am not a tree. And no matter how much you train your feet are still ONTOP of the surface.

My point: I have walked miles doing Hsing-I Cannon Fist. Back and forth. Drive off the back leg, keep hang time for as long as I can, finish the strike before landing ... all of this produces the largest POTENTIAL strike.

However, in fighting, I KNOW my heal comes up at times!

Why (that's the important aspect)? Because sometimes I have opened the door already and moved the guy. The back foot isn't the back foot anymore -- even though it's back there. Understand? I'm saying the front leg is now loaded.

Or sometimes in the free and ever changing dynamic of H2H combat I break the rule (imagine that) in favor of mobility.

You are enjoying drinking the Coke that your teacher gives to you and you read in all the books, magazines and discussion forums. I am utilizing the forumla my master has shared with me.... I can do what I want. When you know the rules it is safer to break them.

All this back and forth is actually funny! Who cares what the hell anybody else does. I know what I can (and can't) do. I'll post some footage of me after a fight I have in two months. You can tear it apart, deside all the things I did wrong while knocking the guy down.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by RSA
Maybe his heel comes up so what. Your response says it all.

...and your response shows that you know little, if anything about actually applying Taiji. I have never seen a Taiji person with good power *NOT* pick up their driving leg after issuing. It's the most natural way to retain root after issuing (on another person, not just in form). Like hsing-i's bamboo step in it's pi chuan movement (not talking stomps here). Look at the clip linked below. Watch the proponent demonstrate press (about 3/4 of the way into the clip) his rear foot, including the heel, comes off of the ground, and his root is not compromised. No over extension at all. This is what application actually looks like RSA.

http://www.hsing-i.com/pics/WCTCs1App.mpg

[Syd]

I would agree with the above also. There were people who used to look at Erle performing Fajin when striking and complain that his heel may have lifted slightly. The claim was always the same but in application he more or less said the same as John above has just done.

When practicing striking and issuing fajin on a heavy bag I have also noticed in the sung state the release of power when issuing creates such momentum that for a fraction of a second both the back and front foot leave the ground. It does nothing to compromise the root.

You need to think of it in the same way that a fencer shuffles down the piste when striking with lightning speed... same principle and the fencer does not lose his/her root either.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Syd- let me first start out with a friendly request- can we agree to disagree? People argue all the time about what is the one true way to do something, but what really counts is whether something works or not. I have yet to meet Erle, so I cannot really say what he does from my own perspective, but 90% of the Taiji community agrees: Erle Montaige does not do fa jing. After watching the video clip on his website with his perspectives, I have to agree with that consensus. I did like how he pointed out the how an internal push, and getting power to "explode" inside of a target are completely different things. It's the the claim that both feet can leave the ground when it's done right that makes me raise an eyebrow. A half step follow up AFTER issuing is one thing, but one, or both feet leaving the ground at the very moment of issuing? Now that suggests lack of root. I have watched my teacher give demonstrations of getting power to "explode" within a target many, many times. I have NEVER seen him issue without his feet solidly planted on the ground. Now, as I said before, people do things differently, and what matters is whether or not it works, but Erle's comment on how a heavy bag moves when fa jing is done correctly was highly suspect to me. I have seen a few Taiji teachers demonstrate fa jing blows on heavy bags, and the ones who could really do it good could make the bag jump from the front surface being struck, or the center, or the opposite side of the bag being struck. Sounds weird in the written word but when you watch it happen you can literally see what the kinetic force is doing to/through the bag. Why didn't Erle use a heavy bag to demonstrate instead of having someone hold up a mitt? You can't really see what is happening at all. Anyways what I am saying is all of the most destructive blows I have seen and felt were done by people with thier feet planted firm on the ground. Without root, without physical connection with the ground, high power cannot be generated with the body's structure, let alone be tranferred. Without root, throwing a blow in mid air will cause your force to rebound back into your own frame, pushing you back down to the ground, whereas if you were rooted, all of that wasted force could have been routed through your structure into the opponent at the moment of impact.

[Syd]

Syd- let me first start out with a friendly request- can we agree to disagree?

Sure...

People argue all the time about what is the one true way to do something, but what really counts is whether something works or not.

Works for me...

I have yet to meet Erle, so I cannot really say what he does from my own perspective, but 90% of the Taiji community agrees: Erle Montaige does not do fa jing.

I think 90% would be very difficult to gain consensus on. Perhaps rather what Erle does is something which has been tailored to his own best result. Every person physically performs certain moves and applications with their own flavour.

After watching the video clip on his website with his perspectives, I have to agree with that consensus.

It's still an unproven 90% of nothing, but I'll take it onboard that you personally don't agree.

I did like how he pointed out the how an internal push, and getting power to "explode" inside of a target are completely different things.

O.K

It's the the claim that both feet can leave the ground when it's done right that makes me raise an eyebrow.

This is where semantics and dynamics in the written word make any kind of discussion like this almost impossible. I have performed fajin with both feet planted and driving off the back leg, remained perfectly rooted and performed an explosive strike on a heavy bag.

I have also been able to drive forwards in a Fencing shuffle (Very difficult to explain verbally, but I could show you in person, if only!) where in driving off the back leg you slap the front foot forwards and whip the body forward whilst moving/shuffling up and onto/towards your target. You are essentially driving through your intended target, or meeting that target whilst redirecting the incoming force and striking pre-emptively.

I explained this in another thread far more efficiently and will retrieve is as soon as that dang website comes back online. Essentially no root is lost and the moment where the feet are sort of in transition are at the points where the driving force and momentum are already comitted forwards and onto the front foot. The whole thing occurs so briefly that I would defy any person to be able to uproot you using this approach. It's the same thing as a static rooted strike driving off the back foot accept it is a dynamic version where you are in a transit towards another movement or application. This is the reality of combat... you can't stand still forever. You have to know how to move and apply your techniques within a dynamic and ever changing circumstance.

The bottom line was that I found it really quite interesting that I was able to get an obvious gain in power when issuing forward using this whip like shuffle. The bag behaved quite differently to a static standard rooted strike. As I said before I can only give my word on it as I can't demonstrate it personally.

A half step follow up AFTER issuing is one thing, but one, or both feet leaving the ground at the very moment of issuing?

I think we are saying the same thing, though perhaps I was a little inelegant in my use of the terms... "both feet off the ground". Ofcourse I am not saying you should issue when your feet are in mid air... forget that.

Now that suggests lack of root.

Agreed...

I have watched my teacher

By the way, who is your teacher?

give demonstrations of getting power to "explode" within a target many, many times. I have NEVER seen him issue without his feet solidly planted on the ground.

Sure, that makes sense.

Now, as I said before, people do things differently, and what matters is whether or not it works, but Erle's comment on how a heavy bag moves when fa jing is done correctly was highly suspect to me.

I can't answer to that, you'll have to talk to Erle. Send him an E-mail he actually answers all genuine questions from all comers.

I have seen a few Taiji teachers demonstrate fa jing blows on heavy bags, and the ones who could really do it good could make the bag jump from the front surface being struck, or the center, or the opposite side of the bag being struck.

Dunno, but I've never had any problems making a bag jump in the manner you describe either. I do it most every day when I train.

Sounds weird in the written word but when you watch it happen you can literally see what the kinetic force is doing to/through the bag.

Agreed, now you would see about a 15% increase when whipping and shuffling forward and launching into the bag issuing fajin, rather than remaining statically rooted. I can get both shots pretty close to the same but I have noticed a definate increase in power and bag reaction when I employ the other technique discussed.

Why didn't Erle use a heavy bag to demonstrate instead of having someone hold up a mitt? You can't really see what is happening at all.

We often train using Mits because we aren't exactly training a typical physical force on object style strike. The strike when issuing fajin as we learn it happens in the backward whipping action of the fist or palm and so the effect is more stinging internally rather than the visual effect of slamming something force on force and seeing it move in a large sweep.

I can't say for sure what Erle was trying to do exactly but it's my guess that he was demonstrating the technique exactly as we train for it. It's an internal training technique of striking rather than an external one. I do have video's of Erle issuing fajin on heavy bags but the way we train that kind of striking is subtle and mits are generally used.

Anyways what I am saying is all of the most destructive blows I have seen and felt were done by people with thier feet planted firm on the ground.

Sure... I would agree. All I was saying is that when in a combat situation you are required to move, shuffle and shift and there will be many ocassions when your feet will be leaving the ground for fractions of a second and in very small degrees. I was trying to point out that it is not necessary or desirable to stay in one spot firmly rooted in order to get off powerful and explosive shots on an opponent. Dig what goes on during large San Sau! I am not suggesting however that anybody should try issuing whilst in mid air with both feet off the ground! *L*

Without root, without physical connection with the ground, high power cannot be generated with the body's structure, let alone be tranferred.

Yeah, yeah.. we are agreed.

Without root, throwing a blow in mid air will cause your force to rebound back into your own frame, pushing you back down to the ground, whereas if you were rooted, all of that wasted force could have been routed through your structure into the opponent at the moment of impact.

Ofcourse...;) hope I cleared some things up.

Best, Syd

[looking_up]

I think there must be several kinds of fa jin. Different ways to use the dantian.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Syd

I have also been able to drive forwards in a Fencing shuffle (Very difficult to explain verbally, but I could show you in person, if only!) where in driving off the back leg you slap the front foot forwards and whip the body forward whilst moving/shuffling up and onto/towards your target. You are essentially driving through your intended target, or meeting that target whilst redirecting the incoming force and striking pre-emptively.

Sounds like hsing-i. Do you do that too?


I explained this in another thread far more efficiently and will retrieve is as soon as that dang website comes back online. Essentially no root is lost and the moment where the feet are sort of in transition are at the points where the driving force and momentum are already comitted forwards and onto the front foot. The whole thing occurs so briefly that I would defy any person to be able to uproot you using this approach. It's the same thing as a static rooted strike driving off the back foot accept it is a dynamic version where you are in a transit towards another movement or application. This is the reality of combat... you can't stand still forever. You have to know how to move and apply your techniques within a dynamic and ever changing circumstance.

I understand what you are describing here, but it's very different from what Erle describes in that first clip on his site. He demonstrates a stationary strike and says "your feet can even leave the ground when you do fa jing". So I'll attempt to paraphrase you... From what you describe above, you are not committing any force into the bag/opponent until that front foot is planted, right? We are definitely at a point where words may fail us, but I'm patient, so correct my assumption if it's wrong.


I think we are saying the same thing, though perhaps I was a little inelegant in my use of the terms... "both feet off the ground". Ofcourse I am not saying you should issue when your feet are in mid air... forget that.

OK, but if both of your feet leave the ground as a result of issuing (like what Erle describes), you are neither rooted or issuing. What you are describing does not seem to involve even a fraction of a second of free floating. But we may be at that point where the written word will fail us...


By the way, who is your teacher?
Mike Patterson.


Sure... I would agree. All I was saying is that when in a combat situation you are required to move, shuffle and shift and there will be many ocassions when your feet will be leaving the ground for fractions of a second and in very small degrees. I was trying to point out that it is not necessary or desirable to stay in one spot firmly rooted in order to get off powerful and explosive shots on an opponent. Dig what goes on during large San Sau! I am not suggesting however that anybody should try issuing whilst in mid air with both feet off the ground! *L*

Still, this is different from what Erle is talking about. It's just so hard to tell from his clip because of the poor encoding. But he is saying that both feet can leave the ground *as a result* of issuing. That's what rang my alarm.

Hats off to your patience and willingness to really get into a good convo on this stuff Syd, so many people stop reading threads when the posts start getting long....

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by looking_up
I think there must be several kinds of fa jin. Different ways to use the dantian.

There are certainly a thousand ways to describe how it's done, but if you watch people who can do it, the same principles are always involved. The classics all describe what fa jing is quite clearly. It's unique to the internal styles, despite the latest claims otherwise... Expression within martial arts is like snowflakes- no two expressions will ever be the same, but the principles (like the geometries in snowflkes) are perfectly consistent.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Often, i see problems arise when people are so confined by "forms" and "theories" that they can't deal with something that is outside their frame of reference.. like the Taiji guy laying on the ground holding a hand-full of his teeth mumbling something like "yeah, but your heel came off the ground"... in the relative safety of the training or refereed matches we can hold our standards high, but.. when my life's on the line i pray the training works, but i don't stop to correct my stances or chastise my opponent for bad form..

With certainty i can say that FaJing can be, and is frequently, issued with what the classics would call poor rooting.. simple physics and anatomy will permit enormous amounts of energy to be generated solely from the mass of the body.. Of course being "rooted" is preferred and will generate stable grounded transmission of energy backed by the planet beneath your feet.. but, it is precisely the Taiji player's nature to adapt and change that allows them to make the most of the situation, even if the rooting is compromised.. we must be prepared to respond from ANY position/situation, not waiting until we have such precise form as to satisfy the classic interpretation of Taiji.. That "classic interpretation" is a target, not a goal.. the goal is survival, the target increases our chances of making the goal..

Just another perspective.. Be well...

[Syd]

Taichibob

Couldn't have said it better Bob...

JohnCain

Hey bro, I found that little debate regarding the Fajin and feet off the ground thing, seems that you aren't the only person who isn't convinced over that one. I'll post my idea's from that debate here as they pretty much sum up my thoughts on the whole thing.

Looks like Hsing I... do you do that as well?

Interesting you should say that actually. Infact no I don't do it but I have a great respect for the art. All I was really describing was Taiji in dynamic rather than static mode. I assure you I am adhering to the usual Taiji principles when I do it. As far as I know, your allowed to go forwards as well as backwards in Taijiquan. This would be of particular use when in an actual fight.

I understand what you are describing here, but it's very different from what Erle describes in that first clip on his site. He demonstrates a stationary strike and says "your feet can even leave the ground when you do fa jing". So I'll attempt to paraphrase you... From what you describe above, you are not committing any force into the bag/opponent until that front foot is planted, right? We are definitely at a point where words may fail us, but I'm patient, so correct my assumption if it's wrong.

*L* Man it's hard enough aint it? Ok, I can't say for sure what Erle was doing and I can only answer for myself and what I do. I don't just train Taijiquan by the book but I am interested in incorporating within a Taiji framework anything and everything that works technically and realistically. I have seen Erle at work and can assure you that with over 30 years invested in Martial Arts that he knows his stuff and is more than capable of using Taiji combatively. Having said that I can allow for the fact that he is a bit further down that road than you and I and I also accept that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Infact frequently we find such differences in an art between Student and Teacher within only one generation due to the existence of individualisation of technique, which makes total sense.

I know what you are saying and while I don't strike with my front foot wayyyyy off the ground, when I issue forward and shuffle up I have found that the front foot is not as important for root because the strike occurs generally at the same point as the front foot takes it's root. This being the case we have a fractional moment when the centrifugal comitment of energy is in transit, which is generated from the back leg, the hips, waist and then arms. The front foot is the last thing to happen and it takes it's root again at the point of impact with the target. As I said I am not at the point where I am issuing with both feet clearly off the ground, but I understand the concept where both feet break root in order for combative movement and dynamic expression of movement take place.

Here below are some outakes from that discussion where I shared a few idea's or thoughts on what might be happening if both feet came off the ground. I'll highlight the objections of the other guy just to make sense of some of my idea's... for those that vehemently disagree, what can I say? ;)


With all due respect to all, during the fajing it is not important if the feet are off the ground since you give your body up to it and the power will create enough trajectory where you may for a split second lose earth contact. The main issue is that it would ofcourse be disastrous if you initiated your fajing without contact with the ground, but if you have initiated the attack with a firm root and you issue firstly using Qi drawn up through the earth then powered into the thighs/legs, coupled to the correct use of the waist and then issuing from the dan tien when you issue through to your target via your arms... I don't see how this would be poor form if for a split second you came off the ground when you issued the strike?

It is akin to when a steel trap or bear trap fires from it's open position and literally leaps up off the ground in a whipping/snapping action when it exhibits the maximum energy on it's trajectory! It is only off the ground for a split second and quickly settles back to it's root again. I think the problem comes when people read too literally into certain texts and take it to mean that these are absolutes. We should allow for advanced developments and techniques to take a slightly different form when applied at their higher order, or in actual fighting situtations.

I think when performed at optimum or in dynamic combat, fajing could cause one to break with ground for a split second, nothing wrong with it as far as I can see as it's all part of kinetics and dynamics. Afterall Taiji is largely about a balance of energies and a balancing of total opposites. When you issue you do so with a firm root, why wouldn't it be logical that at optimal velocity, the point of striking, that the practitioner is not in a state of breaking contact, hence balancing the energies? Makes total sense to me...

Best, Syd

(The other guy) - Going with that bear trap metaphore, if the bear trap 'jumps' of the ground as it snaps it is dispersing it's energy.


(ME)It doesn't literally jump into the air, this is an analogy, but it does break contact with the earth for a fraction of a second due to the force with which the trajectory has compelled it. I would argue that a trap or whip is not dispersing energy and suggest instead that it is emitting energy. The entire point of Taiji fajing and learning how to move the body is to harness great energy and release/emit it to a given target. The Taiji fighter loses nothing in this split second breaking of contact because it is only a fraction of a second and contact is taken up just as strongly, immediately after the strike has hit it's mark.

(The other guy)Every bit of energy that get's commited to lifting it off the ground is a bit less energy directed at snapping the trap shut.


(ME) I disagree with this assesment of the dynamic in play. Instead I see that the awesome power harnessed and released in this design is actually far in excess of the designs capability to constrain! When a human being correctly emits fajing, the power emitted is such that the body will in certain instances literally launch itself for a fraction of a second and break it's contact with the ground, not it's root. There is a very big difference. Anybody who is in synch with their qi and taijiquan will still maintain a basic qi root to the earth even when a part of the body isn't in physical contact with the ground.

Continued....

[Syd]

...Continued....

(Other Guy) If your feet are off the ground then they are not, at that moment of impact, delivering additional power. That's just physics. Whatever you can deliver while not rooted, no matter how much that is, it is less than you could if your feet were planted at impact.


(ME) I think this totally depends on your analysis of the full range of motion and the points at which during the issuing of a strike the Taiji fighter begins to enter the point of diminishing returns. The physics you claim to support your point isn't the same kind of physics that I believe is in play during a fajing strike, sorry. As far as I am concerned the important moments when a physcial root are totally necessary is at the initiating stage where the qi is drawn up through the legs, then mixes with the dan tien and the use of the waist and then issued through the upper body and directed through whatever output through to the target. A whip is never in contact with the earth and it's explosiveness is only governed by the centrifugal action of it's source of energy. A whip can be cracked by anybody, even if they suspended in the air!

What seems to be missunderstood is that the maximum velocity of the output power in any given fajin strike is already achieved at a certain point of issue or release! When ground contact is broken, it is the point AFTER this maximum output has been achieved, and the fighter is already in a state of diminishing returns. As I said earlier if the fighter were to leap in the air and THEN try and issue fajin, then this would have a negative effect on the output of power in the strike. But having already drawn power from the root and then flowed on from that to the upper body in the whipping action of the waist, this does not occur because like a spring, the energy wants to unleash itself in an upward and outward explosiveness. The period of time and the degree that the foot might lose contact with the earth (not broken root!) is so minimal that it's negligable and makes complete sense to me given the amount of energy that is being emitted at that moment.

So thats pretty much my thoughts on all that. I'm sure someone will find something in all that to take exception to but I have basically said all I can on it. You said you teacher was Mike Patterson? I looked at some of the clips and I like his style, he looks like a good teacher.

Still, this is different from what Erle is talking about. It's just so hard to tell from his clip because of the poor encoding. But he is saying that both feet can leave the ground *as a result* of issuing. That's what rang my alarm.

As I said bro, your not the only one who has an issue with that one. I can assure you that if you e-mail Erle he'll be more than happy to give you a detailed answer regarding your concerns on this. I am not so much of an Erle follower as a person who has trained in his system and someone who's on their own journey towards effictiveness in Taijiquan as a combat art. These days I train alone in Yang Style and with a few guys who are also dedicated to similar results as myself. I am however about to begin training in Wu Style with a gentleman named Master Sam Li who is the son of Grandmaster Li Li Qun, inventor of Backstepping Qigong. Both Sam Li and Li Li Qun were disciples of Wu Styles Ma Yueh Liang and Grandmaster Li Li Qun was the Secretary of the Shanghai Wu Style asociation alongside Ma Yueh Liang for over 20 years. Another gentleman I am currently training with was one of the 5 Tigers of Canton in the 1960's when he was one of the few Choy Lay Fut fighters to do well against Thai Boxers in Thailand. Due to injury in the 60's he turned to TCM and found a doctor who was also an internal arts master. This master taught him Liu He Ba Fa and after 3 years training with this gentleman he was chosen and accepted to pass on a closed door Taoist art with predates Liu He Ba Fa; it is called Wun Yuen Yut Hei Jeung or Continuously Circulating One Breath Palm.

Hats off to your patience and willingness to really get into a good convo on this stuff Syd, so many people stop reading threads when the posts start getting long....

Thanks mate, I do enjoy the cut and thrust of these discussions and respect all fellow internal artists and what they do. We are all pretty much brothers of the same art, I can't see the use in mud slinging within the same family. I've been guilty of it in the past but I'm fast beginning to change my ways and views on all this as Martial Arts becomes a life journey for me rather than a banner to wave. ;)

Best to ya.. Syd

[shrub]

Syd - Get a Life!

[Syd]

Shrub,

Thanks mate, this is my life. ;)

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..
With certainty i can say that FaJing can be, and is frequently, issued with what the classics would call poor rooting.. simple physics and anatomy will permit enormous amounts of energy to be generated solely from the mass of the body.. Of course being "rooted" is preferred and will generate stable grounded transmission of energy backed by the planet beneath your feet.. but,
Hey Bob, that's all I was arguing. I am quite aware that one's ability to actually fight is far different from being able to demonstate "principles", in or out of a fight. Like I said before, when it comes to a fight, what works is ALL that counts. Did I say what Erle does would not work in a fight?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I have not commented on Earle at all.. i have no quarrel with Earle, i also have no actual experience with him.. to comment on the limited info in the Video Clip would be presumptous on my part.. My style differs from that which i witnessed in the clip, i favor sticking and ChinNa.. followed-up with elbows and "internal work" if the opponent feels the need to continue the struggle.. Ultimately, if the situation demands full-out combat, i can go there too.. But, my intent is to control the conflict so that no one gets seriously injured.. (i have had my fill of that type of game)..

Be well..

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Syd
Shrub,

Thanks mate, this is my life. ;)

Dude you need a women. You have way to much time on your hands. What do you do? Work out then really train by typing on a computer?

[Syd]

You've got me pegged, what can I tell ya? ;)

[Unmatchable]

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a woman. Some men are just undesirable by women.

[GroungJing]

Hold up Unmatchable.......Have you heard the phrase "pulling someone's chain...."

I was just teasing......If anything I respect Syd cause he doesn't waffle on what he believes and displays a thick skin. These are really good traites to have on a news group such as this.

We may differ in opinion, but that's another story.


Besides don't we really come here to hoot and holler and rattle the sabers....

[dre_doggX]

With on of his videos, its on Fa-jing. I am taking kungfu, and Tai chi from a teacher this semester, he what he told me is that one of the difference between a real kungfu school, and a commerical one is that all real kungfu schools belong to family and do there martial arts from a certain family, thats why martial arts like Lohan, Wing Chun and even Hsing-i will look different FROM THE STANDARD FORMS, IN THE BOOKS.

Erles explaination is clear, no ridel to it.

i dont understand why is it that people who have never read anything on his site, of so much to say about him

Honestly I read and watch from two of his videos I own, he has been generous and is honestly about teaching Tai chi, no taking peoples money.

He shows how the health and the martial are inseperable. Yes I am sure they are many many different ways of doing Yang Lu Chan Tai chi, but I would say read his articles then tell me what you got to say.

I honestly believe, that all this Erle bashing is foolish. WHO HERE HAS 30 YEARS EXPERIENCE IN THE SAME STYLE ????????????


yes stuff is there you just got to go to www.taijiworld.com

AND LOOK.

Different Kungfus are both a product of adaptation and the martial artist, kungfu is about self, not about what is traditional or not. if it works for Erle works for Erle, what work for Bruce Lee(which would rather Erles) works for Bruce Lee. and so on.
thankyou, you reading
iam out.

[Unmatchable]

His free clips on his site aren't very impressive though. How many times do we have to look at a guy doing forms or push hands? At least the other guy did sparring.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Dre_DoggX, that was fvcking beautiful.

[Ging Mo Fighter]

the larger man looks a bit overweight and puffed

i dont think id wanna see him in a fight where the other guy made him move around a lot

(you get tired twice as fast in fights because of the adrenaline)

i couldnt see any reason why jabbing him to the face to upset his game wouldnt work, hes fast but not that fast

[Syd]

RAF,

I suppose I could qualify my prior remarks with the fact that we don't see the Yang Cheng Fu system as a non fighting system but it is certainly seen as a far more health oriented system than the straight out Old Yang Style that we practice.

So when taken in context of the comparison within Erle's sytem it makes sense from the schools perspective because the Old Yang style is so much more dynamic than the Cheng Fu system when performed as a combat form. I can't speak for Erle and I have no desire to be spokesman for the system.

I have trained in the system and actually do not formally train within the school these days but I train alone with some buddies who are on a similar personal journey to me. I think very highly of the Yang Cheng Fu long forms and practice them more often than any other form. I can see the martial applications in the Yang Cheng Fu forms and I also see the applications that were either changed, removed or watered down, depending on your perspective, which differentiates one from the other.

There are certainly moves in the Old Yang that are clearly more martial and pragmatic than the YCF forms but I have no beef with schools teaching Cheng Fu as a martial art, not at all. More power to any Taiji school teaching applications and balancing the energies.

Best, Syd

[RAF]

Hey Syd:

I think you and I had a similar conversation a couple months back and I really don't want to get into the EM arguemnts. Most of this has been said before and in the end people only end up feeling shytty.

If you don't mind, I'll remove my post.

Good luck in your training.:)

[Syd]

Hey RAF,

Whatever you need to do my friend. I wasn't offended by anything you said and I took it all in my stride. I did not percieve this to be an attack on Erle, afterall I am not his defender either, I only speak from what I know and what I have learned, but my own personal journey should not be confused with Erles either.

Erle teaches Yang Cheng Fu's 108 long form as the first thing you learn in his system and there is always a great respect for it by all students of the system.

Best to you and good luck with your own endeavours also.

Syd