Bouncing stretching and weight training

[stimulant]

I'm sure this will cause a some debate but...

Weight training is NOT good for power (for kung-fu) in the long term, and bouncing stretching IS good for your legs for practical situations.

about me first...I study Mizong, used to train and teach kick-boxing and muah-thai, used to weight training, and am a fitness instructor......

so why am I saying this....

Well I used to belong to the western school of thought but now I have seen the 'eastern' light!

Weight training and press ups are good for short term power only. But as they both build muscles around and tighten the joints you will not get the same relaxed benefits form training without them. less mobility in the joints means less speed and less follow through, but most importantly - less snap action. I used to lift weights and train very hard, and I had fast hands...but now after not doing weights (or press ups) for over 2 years and conentrating on relaxing the joints my hands are much faster and i am more powerful then ever before. And this is despite being over 20 pounds lighter. Its down to technique and correct training.

When I first started Mizong I asked my teacher (Master Lu jun hai - via a translater!) why we dont do press ups in class....his reply was short, sharp, and painfully true, he said 'why?? you wont be doing them in a fight'! When I asked him how to develop power without press ups or weights he said 'train and practise hard, tan tui will develop power' - how right he is. Tan tui strengthens the shoulders without developing size or mass, it builds the smaller muscle gruops and works on both static active and explosive strengh. This fundemental training gives great results by itself, combine this with internal training and weapons training and you power will far exceed that achieved by doing press ups and / or weights.....even if you cant lift half as much as your weight lifting friends. Relaxation is the key.

press ups and weight training are excellent for power training if you are doing kick-boxing, boxing, muay thai, etc. The power used is different it comes from a push as opposed to a snap. here is an example....

a door as a glass window in it. If a powerful kick-boxer front kicks the door (not on the glass), it will fly open and when it hits the door stop / wall the glass will break. If a powerful kung-fu practitioner fornt kicks it (not on the glass), the glass will break before the door hits the door stop / wall. The difference is the power used stayed in the target damaging it, instead of go through the target and sending it backwards.

I've more to say but let me getting on to the merits of bouncing stretching.

Firstly... You can NOT rely on bouncing stretching alone to get flexible. You need relaxed stretching and static active stretching to.

Far more professional athletes suffer from pulls and tears to their muscles and tendons than normal people despite in peak physical condition. Why? simple...they train one way and compete another way (same as the why do press ups when you wont use them ina fight statement). I've been doing ballistic (bouncing) stretching since I started doing mizong...and boy does it hurt....but it doesnt hurt that much anymore. I can also now kick hard and fast form cold and not worry about pulling something....why?? because my body as become accustomed to it. A real fight is not like a competition or sparing....you DONT have time to warm up, you're gonna go straight form cold to explosive without warming up. Ballistic / bouncing stretching gets your body accusomted to it GREATLY lessening the chances of pulling something. But you need to have been doing it for a long time. When I first started doing it my hamstrings were sore non-stop for about 1 year!!! after a year the pain started to dissappear and now I'm only a little bit sore 1 (or 2 days if trained very hard) after training / class.

you STILL need the normal slow relaxed stretching to get the flexibility you desire, but you also NEED the ballistic stretching to help with your dynamic flexibility and to save you from any tears / injuries if you have to move fast / fight from cold.

You need to train your body for what its going to do. Slow stretches are great if you are going to kick slow, likewise, bouncing / ballistic stretches are great if you are going to kick fast.


These are of course a mixture of traditional and personal insights. Now I'm sure lots of you will disagree, and I welcome all comments both agreeing and disagreeing with me.

[FatherDog]

1997 called; it wants its thread back.

[Merryprankster]

Gosh! Thanks for your insights! I'll be sure to let all the shotputters and olypmic weight trainers, who are THE MOST EXPLOSIVE PEOPLE IN THE WORLD, and some of the most flexible, know they've got it all wrong.

Perhaps the problem is not that weight training isn't so good for fighting, but that you sucked at weight training because you didn't know how to use the tool to get the right benefit.

I can think of four different ways to use weights off the top of my head that force an entirely different adaptive response. I'm sure there are others.

[Suntzu]

http://www.alteredtime.com/images/Barrios_5_10k/I%20SEE%20THE%20LIGHT.jpg

[CrippledAvenger]

I love unsubstantiated statistics, personally.:rolleyes:

[BentMonk]

Stimulant - Since I've been in some form of physical therapy for most of my life, and have several friends who are PT's, I can speak with some authority on stretching. Bouncing while stretching WILL tear your muscles. If you don't believe me, keep doing whatever you want, you'll be going to see my PT buds to fix yourself when your done. As to the weight training issue, MP has brutalized the correct with a hidden Kama Sutra Dim Mak technique, so I shall not rehash.

[Merryprankster]

There is some sort of stretching that involves bouncing, as I recall, but it assumes a previous level of warm up and basic flexibility. I can't remember what it's called...

[ShaolinTiger00]

ballistic stretching.

[Merryprankster]

Ah. Yes. Of course.

Ballistic stretching DOES have some value. I can't remember the name of the response it's supposed to ellicit though. No no, other than tearing your hamstrings.

[BentMonk]

Yes ballistic stretching involves some bounce. It is usually done after the muscles have been warmed up, and by those who have a pre-existing degree of flexibility. I took the first post to mean that ballistic stretching was his primary emans of stretching. If that is not the case, then my response may have been a bit harsh. If that is the case, I stand by my reply as stated. Satic, Ballistic, and Relaxed stretching are all viable. I re-read the post and Stim says he doesn't rely solely on Ballistic stretching. That's good because IMO most folks aren't flexible enough to rely on it without hurting themselves. I know from my own training that weight training has merits for whatever fitness goals you may want to acheive. The goal determines the technique.

[stimulant]

and its the whole West V East theory thing again!!

my shifu is 64 and has always done ballistic stretching.....he can touch his chin with his foot when doing a front kick with a straight leg (no he hasnt got little legs!). Please let me know who many more of you can do it...especially when you reach 64!

I knew I would draw lots comments anti what I said and the few anti me....but what can I say...how traditional is traditional when you change centries old practises because new (western) science says 'It's bad for you'. Chinese kung-fu and medicine is based on different principles to western, and is still a long way from being understood and accepted in the west in its traditonal form!

all comments welcome

[stimulant]

thanks for your comments bentmonk....I did think your first reply was harsh...but glad to see you re-read what I wrote!

Merryprankster.....yes shot putters etc are some of the most explosive people in the world, I have no doubt about it, but not all their training reflects what they sport.

There is habbit of football (sorry, soccer!) coached to make the team jogging around the pitch for ages to help their fitness.....this is now very slowly changing as many sports scientists have pointed out that they NEVER spend that amount of time jogging in a game. What is being done now is that they have borken it down into a % jogging, a % sprinting, a % walking, and a % trotting as this reflects the nature of a soccer match. In time it would be nice to see boxers doing 3 minute fast jogs (almost sprints), 1 min rest, 3mins again, 1 min rest and so on to reflect the nature of fitess they need in a boxing match!

training is relaive to what you do

Like wise...stretching for flexibility is fine, stretching for kicking is only good if you have a stong ballistic element (bouncing stretches, bet yet hard high / stretchec ballistic kicks), that emulate what you are trying to train, in this case kicks punches etc.

like my Shifu says, why do press ups when you will never do them in a fight (well i hope you wont for your sake!). There's no time to relax stretch in a real fight so your body needs to have at least some degree of being accustomed to ballistic (bouncing) stretches.

[Merryprankster]

There is habbit of football (sorry, soccer!) coached to make the team jogging around the pitch for ages to help their fitness.....this is now very slowly changing as many sports scientists have pointed out that they NEVER spend that amount of time jogging in a game. What is being done now is that they have borken it down into a % jogging, a % sprinting, a % walking, and a % trotting as this reflects the nature of a soccer match. In time it would be nice to see boxers doing 3 minute fast jogs (almost sprints), 1 min rest, 3mins again, 1 min rest and so on to reflect the nature of fitess they need in a boxing match!

Yup, that explains it.

Do your research on modern sports medicine and come back when you're done. You're talking about training methods that are over 20 years old. NO modern day athlete trains this way anymore.

FWIW, you just shot yourself in the foot with this argument. Traditional doesn't always mean right--there are better ways to do things than the way they've always been done.

Or do you just mean Western traditional is wrong and Eastern traditional is right? That wouldn't surprise me in the least.


but not all their training reflects what they sport.

ALL their training is designed to be as explosive as possible. ALL of it. Sport specific is the mantra. Try asking Rhadi Ferguson (Olympic level Judoka) how he trains....

Bottom line is this--you don't know what you are talking about w/regards to western sports training. Go learn something until you do.

I'm not telling you eastern methods suck, I'm saying you don't know jack about western sports training.

[stimulant]

merryprankster

I didnt shoot mysely in the foot at all re-read it. ballistic / bouncing stretching does what your muscles would do in a fight from cold it emulates the situation, like wise changing the soccer training does the same thing, emulates the situation.

It also has nothing to do with western being wrong and eastern being right. both see the same thing differently.

I know a lot about (western) modern sports trianning, anatomy, etc, its my job. And eastern methods are a hobby of mine!

:)

[Ford Prefect]

I'm glad you have it all figured out stimulant.

"Merryprankster.....yes shot putters etc are some of the most explosive people in the world, I have no doubt about it, but not all their training reflects what they sport"

You neglect to mention the olympic weight lifters which Merry brought up. They are some of the most explosive and flexable athletes on the planet which is a direct result of their training. Where else will you see 6' tall, 350 lbs men dunking basketballs and doing splits? Kind of sounds like you don't know much about various methods of lifting weights and how to use them to accomplish goals.

"In time it would be nice to see boxers doing 3 minute fast jogs (almost sprints), 1 min rest, 3mins again, 1 min rest and so on to reflect the nature of fitess they need in a boxing match"

It's called jumping rope for rounds, hitting the bags for round, sparring for rounds, etc and boxers do plenty of it. They jog for overall fitness and to strengthen their legs.


Anyhoo, sounds like you have it all figured out. Keep fighting the good fight.

[Chang Style Novice]

Hi KKM!

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by stimulant
and its the whole West V East theory thing again!

There's nothing west versus east going on here. There are plenty of eastern resistance training methods, including those from the martial arts, and including those from the internal family of martial arts.

The only thing going on here is the way you like versus some other ways. The former shouldn't be bolstered up under a misapprehension that it represents some esoteric tradition, eastern or otherwise; it should stand or fall on its own merits.

[stimulant]

welcome comments ChristoperM

[Cung-Fu]

Stimulant-

Iam not sure what press ups are. I think you call them by different names in europe.

If press ups, are same as what we call military press in the states. Then it is obvious, you have choose the correct exercise that mimics the movement you will do in MA.

Your not a volleyball player so why are you doing presses to begin with? Sport training principle of specificity.

Which kinda leads me to believe ( no insult intended, stimulant) you might be using bodybuilding methods in your weight training.

Their is a big difference between strength training for sports and bodybuilding. Unfortunately, bodybuilding techniques permeate popular weight training media.

Your glass door analogy is correct, intuitively and as far as physics. Power is a function of force and time. The faster your muscles contract and the more force produced = more power.

However, proper weight training can improve power. Fast twitch muscle fibers must be excercised if you are to improve power. This type of training DOES NOT cause muscles to grow in size very much. It moves the force/time curve to the left. Bodybuilding tech. works more on slow twitch fibers.

Our/your sifu is right in a way, because bodybuilding/size development weight training moves the force/time curve to the right. Meaning in slows down your muscles ability to contract powerfully.

Techniques such as supersets, split routine, inverted pyramids, reps between 6-15, etc. all optimize muscle hypertrophy and slows down power. If you used any of these it shouldn't be any wonder why you feel your power hasn't improved much.

Increase in muscle size often, surpass development of the tendons and ligaments. That is why many amatuer bodybuilders can rarely do anything more than STRIKE A POSE with those muscles.

You are right stimulant, relaxation is the key. Hypertrophy sometimes cause the muscle to remain in a state of mild contraction, the BURN, that many bodybuilders aims for. Also detrimental for power. Because a muscle cannot contract quickly if it is already in a state of tension to begin with.

Weight training can and has been used to improve performance. But as you said it must be the correct method, it cannot be methods you see in the Arnold, Ferrigino, books or Flex magazine. These methods will actually work against your performance. Great for making muscles look good though.

[stimulant]

Weight training has its place and lots of advantages.

but it is not needed. bodybuilding is great for looking good, but again not needed.

I once had a english shifu (stopped trianing with him when he started to claim to speak to the dead.....!) who was immensly strong yet was only 5'4" VERY thin and weighd under 140 pounds. All his strength was from training his kung-fu!

He had amazing rooting and static strength (also very good static active and explosive strength) and was able to become immovable in horse stance, could not push him, could not lift him up (despite his light weight) and could not even bend his arms. A lot was to do with his good qi, but also his relaxed strength.

My current shifu is a pure 'old skol' master from china. he is 64 and very strong also, likewise all his strength is from training, Tan Tui prodices great strength in the shoulders and arms for punching, and great strength in the legs for kicking. Weapons training produces great results for all techniques as it produces core strength whilst giving good results to the arms, shoulder, wrists etc.

weight training is not needed, I'd rather spend the time training technique and forms.

I have a friend who is 5'8" tall, 230pounds and strong (porbably stronger!) as an ox. He has been training a very long time in various martial arts and is a very good fighter and grappler. On a resent training visit to china he met his shifus' shifu....and said he could not do anything, it was like trying to grapple water. All his time weight training and strength accounted for nothing.

Now obvioulsy mr john doe public is not a master of taichi so his strenght and weight will be an advantage, but my point is that wight training is not needed.

[Cung-Fu]

I consider myself to be a traditionalist MA of sorts. I have yet to see anymore than maybe 1-5% of the masters who train traditionally able to accomplish anything even remotely what you are saying happened. And this doesn't include actual fighting, in a sport setting or otherwise, which is the real test.

Those 1-5% I attribute to 2 things-
1. natural ability
2. extremly long hard practise (6+ hrs a day) over years.

Then who is to say that they couldn't even be more stronger/quicker if they had done strength training.

If such a low number of good MA, are being produced traditionally then I think, their must be a better way to get results quicker and more consistently.

Don't get me wrong, traditional training must be undertaken in order to become a good MA. Strength training is an addition, not a substitution. That statement is modern atheletic thinking also.

As far as your friend in china, well, maybe he was using bodybuilding tech. also.

Or maybe he was just fooling himself into believing his grandmaster is something else. I hate to say this but, we see a lot of the BS out their. Guys who can make you freeze in your tracks with qi, (NYC 1991 Master demo) and what does that say about the student who perpetuates that show with his sifu? Is he intentionally putting on a show? or does he really believe that he can get frozen by his sifu's qi? (power of suggestion).

But unless, your not human and you move without the use of muscles, sport strength training will always improve performance. Their is no way around that fact.

[Knifefighter]

LOL at all the misinformed people who still think that lifting weights makes you slower and less flexible. Just gives all of the athletes who know the opposite is true that much more of an advantage.

BTW, muscle fiber has its own specific force/velocity curve. Contract a muscle too fast and you decrease power.

[Cung-Fu]

Knifefighter-

No need to make fun of stimulant :). Lots of BS information out their on weight training also. Maybe he has been subject to the BS stuff? A lot of them come from so called "personal trainers" at your local gyms.

Obviously, speed without force is not power, and vice versa.

Trick is to increase speed and force at same time. (force/time curve).

[Vash]

Doi . . . I kant beleeve uus peeple still think that mussels move teh bodee. Doi, its tendins and ligaments. These, in tern, are powered by Ki, which can only be strengthened through long hours of uber-deep *****'s stance.

:rolleyes:

wait training suxors, calesthenics suxors, specialized cardiovascular training suxors. hek, you peeps shouldnt even do cung phu, as it's to strenuous on your body.

[IronFist]

Well, I think you're just trolling our forums, but I'm bored so I'm gonna reply to everything you said, and also because I'm sure there are a bunch of lurkers (people who read but never post) on this forum and I wouldn't want them to get bad info.

Weight training is NOT good for power (for kung-fu) in the long term,

It depends on what you mean by "power." Weight training won't give you the type of power it takes to shatter a stack of concrete blocks with your palm. But kung fu won't give you the power required to Squat 500lbs. If you feel like making the horse stance argument, don't bother. Static holding of postures does NOT promote the muscular conditioning nor the nervous system conditioning to handle heavy loads. This is why powerlifters train with heavy weights and not with stances.

and bouncing stretching IS good for your legs for practical situations.

Bouncing stretching is also good for causing injuries. I'm sure you can cite cases of hundreds of people who do bouncing streching and haven't been injured. Good for you. It's still less safe than other methods.

Weight training and press ups are good for short term power only.

I've heard 2 or 3 exercises referred to as "press ups" so I don't know exactly what you mean. However, the conditioning you get from weight training is temporary, obviously. The body adapts to the demands placed on it. If you quit making it do work, it's going to stop being able to do that work. Kung Fu is no different. If you train to do x technique and then stop training, you'll lose your ability over time. Chi development or whatever may be different, because some people say once you develop it it doesn't go down, but it's not my forte so I don't know.

they both build muscles around and tighten the joints you will not get the same relaxed benefits form training without them.

Wrong.

less mobility in the joints means less speed and less follow through,

Wrong. Even if your range of motion was limited to 50% of that of a healthy individual, it wouldn't affect your speed. You could still be just as fast through that reduced range of motion.

but most importantly - less snap action.

What the hell is "snap action?" Do you mean explosiveness?

I used to lift weights and train very hard, and I had fast hands...but now after not doing weights (or press ups) for over 2 years and conentrating on relaxing the joints my hands are much faster and i am more powerful then ever before.

Your weight training must have been flawed, then. Besides, how do you know your hands are faster now? Have you tested them in a lab? What method of testing did you use? Don't tell me "they feel faster" because that's like saying "I feel like I can lift more weight." One good thing about weight training is that you have concrete proof of how much you can lift, and how much a particular cycle worked, because the numbers are hard proof. You are correct in saying that excess tension will reduce speed, but proper weight lifting does not cause excess tension (except for maybe for a few hours after you finish).

And this is despite being over 20 pounds lighter. Its down to technique and correct training.

Guess what? Your 20lb loss is due entirely to diet and caloric expenditure and due in no part to your stopping weight lifting.

When I first started Mizong I asked my teacher (Master Lu jun hai - via a translater!) why we dont do press ups in class....his reply was short, sharp, and painfully true, he said 'why?? you wont be doing them in a fight'!

No offense to you teacher, but your muscles don't know the difference between doing press ups in class and lifting someone off of you in a fight. Muscles adapt to imposed load. They don't care if it's a barbell, your bodyweight, or some person that you're throwing across the room.

When I asked him how to develop power without press ups or weights he said 'train and practise hard, tan tui will develop power' - how right he is.

How much can your teacher squat? Bodyweight training and proper body mechanics will only get you so far with reference to absolute strength. If you can't bench press 300lbs, how are you going to lift a 300lbs opponent off of you if he is smothering you? Don't tell me "proper body mechanics." What if you are immobolized and can't apply "proper body mechanics?"

Tan tui strengthens the shoulders without developing size or mass, it builds the smaller muscle gruops and works on both static active and explosive strengh.

You will plateau very quickly from bodyweight exercises alone. I'm talking about limit strength, however. You can always develop more endurance through more reps and such, but your absolute strength will not increase if you don't increase the load.

This fundemental training gives great results by itself, combine this with internal training and weapons training and you power will far exceed that achieved by doing press ups and / or weights

Again, you're referring to different types of power. Fighting power is not necessarily weight lifting power, and vice versa.

.....even if you cant lift half as much as your weight lifting friends. Relaxation is the key.

Alright. But your weight lifting friends will be able to lift MORE which will give THEM the advantage in certain situations.

a door as a glass window in it. If a powerful kick-boxer front kicks the door (not on the glass), it will fly open and when it hits the door stop / wall the glass will break. If a powerful kung-fu practitioner fornt kicks it (not on the glass), the glass will break before the door hits the door stop / wall. The difference is the power used stayed in the target damaging it, instead of go through the target and sending it backwards.

The difference is physics.

Far more professional athletes suffer from pulls and tears to their muscles and tendons than normal people despite in peak physical condition. Why? simple...they train one way and compete another way

Nope. Pro athletes suffer more injuries than normal people BECAUSE THEY ARE PRO ATHLETES! Normal people do not play professional sports for a living. Got common sense? If you took a "normal person" and put him in an NFL game he would most likely get injured. Come on. No offence but that was the worst argument of your entire post.

Alright. I'm bored now.

It boils down to this. Different training methods will achieve different goals. S.A.I.D. Specific adaptation to imposed demand. If you train to be able to throw lots of punches without tiring, your body will be able to do that. That training will not allow you to bench press 300lbs, tho. If you train to be able to squat 500lbs, you will be able to squat 500lbs. That training will not let you hold a horse stance for even 5 minutes, though.

While that is true, the stuff about weight lifting hurting flexibility, etc., are myths. Tom Platz, the pro bodybuilder with the biggest quads of all time, could do full splits. I'm sure he's lifted more weights than any of us here, and I'm sure he's more flexible than almost everyone here, too. Olympic lifters, as Ford Prefect said, are often large men (300+lbs) who, due to the explosive nature of their WEIGHT TRAINING, often have 3ft+ vertical leaps. How many people who weigh half of that do you know that can jump 3ft in the air?

You sound like you train hard, you just have some misconceptions. Of course, you can believe whatever you want to believe. But I encourage you to find out how much your Sifu can squat. Make sure it's a full range, ass to the ground squat. He should have no trouble with that since he's so "flexible." No disrespect intended, of course.

[Okinawan_Lohan]

For sheer fact that I've only had cursory research when applied to weight training. I do it, three times a week. Full body work.
Love the stuff.

*Proper Weight Training = Improved range of joint motion, increased flexibility, bigger man-boobies to flex for wife

*Improper Weight Training = Increased injury risk, asymmetry, tendency to argue about the inherent superiority of non-anaerobic conditioning.

OL signing off.

[Christopher M]

Just because it's an awesome quote in its simplicity:

Grasping Heavy Objects Practice Method:

In the past, the previous generations had many methods of grasping iron sand, grasping sand filled jars, grasping iron weights, grasping iron rings and other methods to train the strength of the fingers and palms. In modern times, many types of equipment are used for training hand and arm strength. Train with whatever you want to use. However, there needs to be a progression from light to heavy. Step by step one can gradually progress and be successful.
-from Cheng Family Baguazhang by Ma Youqing and Liu Jingru

Oh those esoteric, daoist masters!

[Toby]

So *gasp*, they'd be lifting weights?! Crazy!

Nice quote. I'm glad my master is modern thinking like that, even though he's very traditional himself. He doesn't care that I lift weights or train in a Western way to supplement MA. Not for him - he's all traditional. Doesn't hurt that he's built like a bear. A very fast, scary bear.

[stimulant]

The things I've said about people abilities, i.e. the shifu who can become rooted and immoveable, and th shifu who kick his chin with a straight leg, are by no means BS as I have witnessed them both. As for the The taichi master in china who my friend could not grapple, I've no reason to doubt my friend as he is definatly a non bs perosn when comes to training, he wants reality all the way and I have known him for 19 years and trained with him for 18 years.

I'm fully aware of the bs factor in china and see some amzing bs demos!

and yes...SPEED is affected by tighter joints - do you research. if you have less mobility in the joint then it will you have less distance to accelerate. Basic physics. think of it this way - accelerating a car from stanbd still along 50metres of rd wont reach the same speed as doing it along 75metres of rd in the same car.

[shaolin kungfu]

You seem to have some misconceptions about weightlifting. Where did you learn what you know?

BTW 1/2 hour till 4:20

[stimulant]

learnt from BWLA, YMCA

not misconceptions, but difficulties of explaining and misunderstands on a forum I think!

Power generated from weights is diffirent from that used in most kung-fu styles. now for a cheesey quote - 'strength in no strength'

and please dont get me wrong people, I'm not preaching rights and wrongs, just putting over a couple of view points.

:)

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by stimulant
Power generated from weights is diffirent from that used in most kung-fu styles.

Doing weights isn't a power generation exercise. Thai boxers, boxers, wrestlers etc all have martial arts training to learn how to move their bodies in the appropriate way for their style, just like chinese martial artists do. Doing weights just trains muscles - the organs people use to do movements of any sort.

[Cung-Fu]

Stimulant-

Entertain me for a minute.

Tell me in your opinion what is the difference between weight training power and kungfu generated power?

Because in a way you are right but I think also you are wrong.

Remembering that "power" has a specific definition scientifically, and is not some esoteric term such as "internal/external styles".

Christopher M-

Doing weights can be a power generating exercise depending on how you do it.

Just train muscles? what does that suppose to mean?

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Cung-Fu
Doing weights can be a power generating exercise depending on how you do it.

Of course it can. I'm simply pointing out that the thing 'lifting weights' doesn't play the role of 'proper technique for power generation' for non-chinese martial artists, as was implied. Non-chinese martial artists have their own 'proper technique for power generation' that plays the role just fine.

[Cung-Fu]

Christopher M

Are you saying that strength training will not improve on power? Which is kinda what stimulant is saying. If that is what you are saying I have to totally disagree with you.

Of course proper tech. must be used to generate power for any style.

I say this again, your not strength training to replace aspects of your MA training, your strength training to improve upon your MA performance.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Cung-Fu
Are you saying that strength training will not improve on power?

Yes, precisely.

[Cung-Fu]

I ask you same question as stimulant

What is your definition of power?

[wall]

STIMULANT,

I've read with interest this thread, and I think a simple example will suffice to clarify the situation:

Think of kung-fu (thus power generation techniques etc) as the driver, and the body (thus muscles etc) as the race car.

Whilst becoming the Schumacher of kung-fu, you also want to use that driving skill to pilot a Ferrari formula 1. Otherwise, as good a drver as you become, you can only race so fast in a VW beetle.

So, internal power generation and breathing is paramount but yelds maximum results when applied to a body with outstanding muscular strenght and flexibility.

That's why Shaolin monks lift kettlebell-type weights, do handstand pushups, squats and chinups, and generally aim at channelling the power generation through the strongest possible body.

:)

C

PS on bouncing strething, 1-it's not ballistic, as that is something else, 2-it can be used very lightly by very well warmed up advanced practitioners. For most people is useless and in fact very dangerous.

[stimulant]

power...

well basically its about what you are trying to achieve.

in martial arts obviously it is about maximum damage if you are fighting in a life or death situation or competing etc. In weight training / power lifting it is lifting you maxiumu load if you are competing. Thats not to say weight lifters cant hit hard..they can hit VERY hard (I know from first hand - ouch!)...its just a different type of power.


Power in physics is a combination of speed and strength. correct technique should imporve on this. but there is (I guess you'd call it) an 'X factor' which is not taken into account in the martial arts equation. whether you want to call this relaxation, follow through, snap, jing, hardness of the striking surface, rooting, whipping action, etc etc or a combination of these plus more factors is up to you.

My personal belife is that weights have their place in training, but there is no need to do them, weapons training provides the resistence while working the angles of attack and defence that you will be using, and also working the muscles relative to what you are trying to achieve.

[wall]

1 - you missed te analogy, might want to re-read my post...don't confuse 'building the fastest racecar' with 'becoming an excellent driver': the two go together, neither should be a replacement of the other if you want to achieve max results.

2 - weapons might be resistance enough for a training beginner, but I can assure you there comes a point when you need far more compound resistance than the weight of a weapon to push your muscles to failure thus stimulating serious strenght gains.

:)

C

[Liokault]

stimulant


My personal belife is that weights have their place in training


You mean you have a veiw that has not been given to you by your "master"?

[stimulant]

I dont share all my masters views as i am an individual, and there are cultrual differences. His knowledge of (chinese) martial arts is far greater than mine will ever be as his ability.

[Knifefighter]

Stimulant is a McFitness instructor.

[Volcano Admim]

when i goto mcdonalds i eat 1 big mac and 1 diet coke
i dont eat the fries with it

[Knifefighter]

Fries & coke. No burger.

[Volcano Admim]

your coke is not diet? :eek:

[Cung-Fu]

X Factor? What the hell is that?

So, now your attributing MA to some mysterious "X value" that you don't even know about?

That is totally illogical, that doesn't fit into Eastern or Western paradigm of thought. Yes, eastern metaphysics is not scientific, but is still logical and still follows a progression of cause and effect. And I have been schooled in both.

Please explain.

[stimulant]

x-factor just refers to what is not taken into consideration in the whole power = strength & speed equation.

[shaolin kungfu]

For example, an x-factor could be the amount of jello you have encased your arm in.

[stimulant]

indeed it could, or are the muscles real of fake implants! lol!

[Cung-Fu]

I don't know what is not taken into consideration when you talk about modern training methods.

So, tell me what is not taken into consideration?

EVERY, atheletic endeavor from boxing, sprinting, wrestling, etc. has benefited from the proper use of strength training. And you are going to say CMA in particular does not need any of that?

That is a pretty arrogant statement. I don't want to be insulting but, your thoughts begs me to ask; Do you have any formal schooling in science or eastern metaphysics?

Power is not just strength and speed. But MAXIMUM strength, in the shortest time possible.

Therefore you cannot have high power output if you don't have high level of strength. And we all know the best way to increase strength is through resistance training.

But the raw strength built in resistance training must be refined and converted to SPORT SPECIFIC POWER, ie MA, sprinting, marathons etc., in order to see gains in performance.

[stimulant]

Im interested in peoples view when playing devils advocate, not attacks on me!

I take it must if us have seen the picture of Ku Yu Cheung breaking 12 bricks and the bottom support stone (no spacers used either) wuth his famous iron palm. very very impressive, even more so when you look at his thin frame and physique. Th picture was taken sometime around 1900-1907 I believe. If anyone knows the exact year I'd be happy to know it.

if you've never seen it before please have a look at

http://stonelionkungfu.0catch.com/external/kyc_bio.html

If we wanna talk chinese metaphysics...I do have some very good frist hand experiences, but I am not, never have claimed to be, and doubt ever will be an expert.

[backbreaker]

I don't know much about weightlifting or modern sport training( just the very basic 1st year college stuff) so I am open for that argument weakness. I would say though , that there is a huge misconception in the general public who don't practice martial arts that whoever has the biggest arms , or who works out the most will win a street fight , or even that "working out' increases your power. I can say from alot of experience day in and day out that people with no martial experience , but who are really bulky cannot hit at all. I've seen this a lot. When someone comes over from the weight gym which is across the hall from the mma gym I train at , the instructor often puts them with me . I crush them in power. Some are ticked off because they thought their size advantage and bulky arms was going to give them an advantage right at the start of their training. One 190 or 200 pound guy was complaining to the trainer something was wrong because he can't hit hard enough and the trainer got really mad and said he's thinking of kicking him out if he says that again and that he needs more training. It happened right in front of me. Others have become intersted in muay thai and become fighters who can put alot of power into their fists. I'm 175 lbs and going with 200+ newbies is what I do.

[Toby]

So some complete beginners who may have never punched before aren't as good at punching as you who've trained for x years? Who would've thought it?! And they outweighed you by a whopping 15-25 lbs?!

I'd never punched anything apart from in schoolyard fights before starting MA but I've been weightlifting for years. I was so surprised when Sifu could mop the floor with me. I thought my 40lb weight advantage and weight lifting skill would give me the clear edge.


I'm 175 lbs and going with 200+ newbies is what I do.

Wow, I wish I was that tough :rolleyes:

So much bull**** in the threads lately.

[IronFist]

THREAD LOCKED!

[Cung-Fu]

I must be talking to myself

I never said weight training is a replacement to any aspect of your MA training.

Weight training is a supplement to improve performance.

I have seen the pics. of Ku Yu Cheong. And I guarantee, if he had used some form of strength training he would break even more than that.

But that is hardly a objective comparison.

You want objective comparison, look at the physique of Jesse Owens and compare that with Carl Lewis and Ben Johnson. Also, compare performance times in events.

Are world records being broken now ? Or does the the old records in sports still stand from the 1930s?

So, by your method of thinking, runners, swimmers, high jumpers,.. should all just train in sport specific skills. By that, I mean a swimmer should just swim, a runner just runs, a boxer just boxes, a MA just trains in MA skills,...

Well, that type of training has went out of style, since the 1960's. See, if any international class athlete would agree with you. Their are volumes of scientific studies regarding strength training and performance improvements.

Backbreaker-
Of course a BEGINNER cannot hit with much power regardless of size. That is a no brainer!

But I can guarantee with 100%, that all things being equal, the stronger guy after learning how to punch WILL hit harder than the weaker guy.

[Cung-Fu]

You still haven't told me what X value that remains unaccounted for.

[stimulant]

why would he have broken even more bricks? his iorn palm strike wasnt based on stength.

[Cung-Fu]

Ahh..finally a right question.

Then tell me what is it based on?

[stimulant]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cung-Fu
[B]I must be talking to myself

[B]I have seen the pics. of Ku Yu Cheong. And I guarantee, if he had used some form of strength training he would break even more than that.



I'm certainly no expert in iron palm and have yet to learn it, but from the sources I've researched it is from the whipping technique and qi, not strength. I'm very happy to here opposing views or to be corrected on this.

speaking of Iron Palm what are peoples thoughts on shifu Brian Gary? I've read some of his books and found them to be good, but having never met the man or seen him do breaks in front of me I cant vouch for him. can anyone shed any light?

[Cung-Fu]

Great stimulant-

Now we can have some serious discussion.

Desciribe to me what is whipping technique? be specific as possible; how is the arm moving, body, legs, stance, mental focus, where the qi is coming from....

Also, describe qi. Use eastern thought processes if you like.

These aren't trick questions, and I am going somewhere with this.

[stimulant]

literally like a whip!

a whip is soft, but the crack it has is powerful. I've been told (and please do correct me if I am wrong) that in Iron palm the whip starts from the feet and ends in the centre of the palm and must be done total relaxed or the shockwave form striking the target will travel up your arm and could have adverse affects on your heart.

It is as I understand it, a totally relaxed technique.

I've seen and done breaks (non-iron palm), but have only seen people breaking the brick etc of their choice (ie the middle / bottom brick etc) in pictures. This feat certinaly needs good focused qi. My knowledge and experience of qi is obviously limited to the training I've had (when I was heavily into qi-gong about 11 years agp i could move pain around the and out of the body), and would appreciate any further knowledge you wish to share with me.

[Cung-Fu]

Sounds about the same thing I was taught too. Let me tell you what I was taught about striking, iron palm or otherwise..

Stance must be firm and rooted, qi must come from body and connect with the ground. If your stance is not strong you can never have power in your strikes. It is the foundation, much like a house that rest on its frame and connects to the ground.

A strike must involve the entire internal and external qi of the body. Whole body acts like a coil spring, when striking.

Internal qi, which comes from the dantien, flows through the relaxed arm and into hands right before the moment of impact.

Whole body is to remain relaxed in order for the qi to flow freely, only before the moment of impact is the fist clenched tightly, resulting in a snapping motion. Must remember to strike through the target and not only hit him on the surface. A good analogy is a chain with an iron ball attached on the end.

Qi gong is very important in kungfu, in the begining your qi is expended very quickly. Only through constant practice can your qi increase. When you have strong qi, strikes are powerful, you can practise a long time without being tired.

Did I leave anything out?

[stimulant]

Great, we have agreed on something....but I have to confess you worded it very well, better than I would have.!

I'm hope my shifu will agree to teach me Iron palm in private lessons next year.

Now heres a good question...

how many styles (or should that be methods?) of iron palm are there?

[CrippledAvenger]

Brian Gray is currently under investigation for child molestation, if I remember correctly. Search the archives.

[Cung-Fu]

I am glad you agree with me.

Now let me describe the same principles again. Using a different theoretical basis.

Stance must be firm and rooted, because without a strong stance the muscles moving the arm, waist, shoulders,etc. in a punch can never develop high power. Because, it will lack a lever to push against. Much, like a sprinter who tries to run a 100m without the starting blocks; or bench pressing 300lbs. lying on a bench that is 4 inches wide, and a bench that is 12inches wide.

Development of core strength is one of the most important factors in almost every athletic endeavor, but especially in power dominated sports. Again, because this is the center of gravity in a human body, and provides a stable base in which to push against an external resistence, ie opponent, javelin, own hand, shot put....

Core strength= muscles of abs, waist, spine. (hint. Dan Tien)

One of the factors in development of high strength is complex interplay of agonist, antagonist, stabilizer muscles (inter-muscle coordination). (forms training, tan tui, iron thread, sam bo jin, sanchin kata)

Keep things simple, Pecs. contract to throw a punch, while some core muscles contract isometrically to stabilize, some contract in waist movement, and latissimus relaxes.

Relaxation is important because a muscle cannot contract powerfully if already in a state of tension. Antagonist muscles will also hamper powerful movements if they are not relaxed.

Muscles must automatically tense at the moment of impact because, for every action their is a equal opposite reaction. When your hands impact the opponent, some of the energy is absorbed by his body some will rebound back. If inter muscle coordination is not highly developed; results lost balance, (no punch through) because energy is rebounded offsetting your body.

Again, firm stance, proper inter muscle coord., core strength will allow a positive transfer of kinetic energy into a opponent as opposed to energy rebounding and offsetting yourself. (qi flows into opponent)

Proper aerobic and anerobic conditioning, must be trained in order for the body to maintain a consistent high level of power output.

Without going into the lung/acidosis molecular process. Deep breathing helps reduce acidosis in the blood. Which is a waste product of fast twitch muscles used in power movements. Although, power movements are anerobic, research has shown a high level of aerobic fitness also help aid in consistent power output. (hint qi gong).

[stimulant]

old news



what I have always found interesting is the relaxation of muslce tone that occurs from having a developed dan tien from qi gong.

[Cung-Fu]

Old news, but yet you can't see the similarities.

Whether you approach MA using eastern metaphysics or western science your still decribing the same event.

Both is valid.

Problem arises when you prefer one at the exclusion of the other.

Such like you stimulant. (strength has little to offer in MA)

[stimulant]

similarities are not one and the same.

and you miss quote me!


:)

[stimulant]

I use and believe in both western and eastern methods, it all depends on what I'm trying to achieve. I like discussions and peoples points of views.

The views I expressed here are valid, but not laws I live by!

[Cung-Fu]

Similarities are not one and the same?

How wrong you are.

Any martial art action can be expressed using eastern and western paradigm.

[stimulant]

you misunderstand my point

if similarities are one and the same then they will not be similarities but identical.

anyway, forget word play, my point is eastern and western theories usually compliement each other, but not always.

I have a friend who is a very good professional heavy weight boxer (in the top 5 for uk, so probably top 20ish for world), forget the vast weight difference, the power we use is different, mainly due to boxing being a sport and requiring gloves. 'snap' on the end of a punch is not so practical as opposed to a 'push' on the end of a punch in boxing as the snap is mostly lost in the gloves padding.

anyway.....I'm glad we agreed on somethings.....probably a lot more than we both realise!

[Cung-Fu]

And you miss my point.

Their isn't 2 different realities. Only 1 reality, but 2 different ways to describe it; eastern metaphysics, western science. Unless your smoking crack.

Regardless of how you think your using just:
-coiling power
-internal qi/external qi
-snap/whip power
-dan tien.....etc.

Your still working on:
-muscle coordination,
-power,
-strength,
-aerobic anerobic energy pathways, kinetic energy, etc.

And vice versa.

Therefore, strength training will always improve performance.

As has been shown in every performance records of athletes from every sport event. Chinese martial arts are no different.

Unless you have been smoking crack.

[stimulant]

Cung-Fu,

your good to discuss with

:):)

[Cung-Fu]

You think the action of Ku Yu Cheong, breaking bricks cannot be explained by science!?

And you are right, eastern and western ways do compliment each other. That is why strength training is important.

[stimulant]

probably, but I wouldnt want to be the one to draw up the equation for it. science has come a long way, but its journey has only started.

out of curiosity....where do you stand on the whole evolution / creation thing?

[CrippledAvenger]

What does evolution have to do with eastern v. western paradigms?

Just curious.

[stimulant]

its do do with science...

many old school masters who have a strong spritual side believe in a supreame being (god if you will), where as scientists tend to believe in evolution.

anyway just asking as curious.

[CrippledAvenger]

Personally, I believe in evolution, but that's irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

You need to keep in mind that evolution is not indicitive of the scientific paradigm. It's a reflection on a specific discipline, a subset of biology. If you have an issue with it, you take it up with the discipline, not the methodolgy.

Science is just a means of gathering data. Disciplines interpret said data, hence theories. Philosophers and metaphysicist are more concerned with what gets lumped into "eastern" views, to use a broad generalization. Science and philosophy work in two different areas. Never confuse them.

[Christopher M]

CrippledAvenger went on Fifth Wheel and spent the whole episode in the 15 minute room with the correct and her two bisexual friends while stimulant sulked alone in a bar.

Evolution and God aren't in conflict; they're possible answers to two entirely different questions.

[Cung-Fu]

I thought the original question at hand was whether strength/weight training can supplement your martial arts and improve your performance.

[rubthebuddha]

cung fu is right. just get strong enough, and instead of beating opponents up, just pick 'em up over head like the ultimate warrior (http://www.tuttowrestling.com/ultimate.jpg) and drop 'em.

[Cung-Fu]

rubthebuddha has been dropped on his head as a baby.

[backbreaker]

THE UUUUUUUUUUUUUUULIMATE WARRIOOOOOOOORRRRRRRR! ARGH!

[rubthebuddha]

but not as many times as in class. :p

regardless, back to the question. even as a wing tsun guy, i think that weights can help you, if you set the right goals and make sure you practice enough to not let the oft-accused "stiffness" become an issue.

[Merryprankster]

To put this back on topic briefly---

YES stimulant, you DID shoot yourself in the foot.

Your argument was that the traditional exercises were somehow superior to more modern methods.

However, in the next sentence, you gave an example of how soccer players don't train the same way they used to because they found better ways of doing it.

In other words, the more modern ways are better in this case.

So, I reiterate--way to shoot yourself in the foot. Or, alternately, way to just say "No no, I meant that EASTERN stuff is good, but WESTERN stuff isn't."

FWIW, I don't care what your job is--I've met loads of personal trainers that know exactly **** about their jobs.

Finally--you're entitled to your opinions about what works better, but you're not entitled to be wrong about the facts--and the bizarre and wrong information that you spout about weightlifting is factually incorrect.

[stimulant]

merrywankster...

you are definatly not a vulcan....

logic...

i'm saying chinese methods are relative to what they are doing.....soccer has begun to adapte this type of training (and i dont mean forms and kung-fu), and made the training more relative to what they do to.

[Serpent]

Ah, stimulant...

You're an idiot.

[CrippledAvenger]

Well, that was quick.

So much for wanting discussion and welcoming all views. :rolleyes:

Yawn.

[stimulant]

wow...almost a compliment, thank you serpent

[Merryprankster]

i'm saying chinese methods are relative to what they are doing.....soccer has begun to adapte this type of training (and i dont mean forms and kung-fu), and made the training more relative to what they do to.

Ah. Thanks for the clarification. It seems I misunderstood you.

Or, alternately, you need a bloody ****ing style manual and better thought organization.

**** off. I hope nobody actually pays you for personal training. Saddest mistake of their lives.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Merryprankster


Ah. Thanks for the clarification. It seems I misunderstood you.

Or, alternately, you need a bloody ****ing style manual and better thought organization.

**** off. I hope nobody actually pays you for personal training. Saddest mistake of their lives.

LOL.

:D