Intention

[S.Teebas]

Whats the best way to develop your intention?

Ps - please dont say "do slt". im interested in specifically HOW, ie what kind of corrections or goals you are achieving.

[old jong]

...You first have to decide what you want to do?...;) ;) ;)

Yes!...do SLT!...First thing first! ;) You must then develop a good stick (Witch include "intention") with dan chi sau and poon sau and learn to feel an opponent's structure trough practice and, use the defects of his defense/offense in chi sau using that same "intention" or forward subtle pressure instinctively.
This thing will be greatly improved by the diligent study of Chum Kiu as the next level of skill. Intentions from the whole body are feeled then and you will start to really show some connective power in your attacks and defenses.
Many will jump out of the box before realising this!...;) ;) ;)

[Ernie]

pretend the man infornt of you just killed your mother , now you have intention , if you have developed a vehicle to carry out that intention that is another matter all together ,
but even with out any training a man that has made up his mind and is willing to give up his life in the process is very hard to deal with.

the problem with intent , is it can become emotional , anger , revenge , hatred all these things can blind and cause you to over commit

better to either treat things no different then crossing the street , or be passionate about your actions this brings all of your being and clarity of thought.

old jong did i trip and fall out of the box again:D

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ernie


old jong did i trip and fall out of the box again:D

Intention=Agression...Anger...Revenge ?...Maybe I'm the one out of the box here!...;) But,I can understand how and when these things could be added to more technical stuff.

[PaulH]

No one ever develop to have such severely tested intention in this lifetime! This is Frodo's finest hour!

http://www.hollywood.com/sites/lordoftherings/moviefeature/movie/return/id/1736749

"It took Frodo 14 months to reach Mount Doom; it took us seven years," he says. "But fortunately we didn't have trolls after us. Producers, maybe, but not trolls." - Peter Jackson

[Ernie]

i guess it would come down to your definition of intent ,
when i think of intent ,
in the martial arts frame of mind , it would lead me down the path of honestly expressing an action to it's fullest capability , and if the art is one were you will kill some one then thus should be the intent ,
now some may deal with that on a moral level is not for me to judge ,
but once i have made up my mind then there is no longer a livign breathing human being in front of me it is just a thing that wishes to kill me .

intent in the technical stuff , i really have none it is a time for learning and experienceing and experimenting , that is a much calmer and open mind set for me ,

intent = killer instinct
perhaps would be my way of looking at it .
and i would never have killer instinct in training .

[old jong]

Let's say;intent as a technical thing and "bad intention"as killer instinct.
We can do both at the same times.And it's free!... ;)

[Ernie]

;)

[TenTigers]

we try to practice everything aggressively. All blocking drills with foward footwork, attack the attack. We also practice 'attack sequences' , meaning combinations of strikes or entries-very foward energy. Moving back is perhaps taught later, much later to avoid bad habits,. We also do body conditioning to absorb strikes. We have two sayings,
"courage first, power second, technique third"
and.."When your opponent moves in, you move in.
when your opponent moves out, You move in.
when your opponent stands still, You move in!"
If you start off this way, you will develop aggressiveness, courage, technique, and intent.
just my two cents

[Repulsive Monkey]

"Pretend the man in front of you has just killed your mother, now you have intention"????
That's an awfull and incorrect peice of advice. No you don't have intention at all you just have rage, and remorse and that totally negates good intention. Intention should be free from emotion, it should be just pure unadulterated vigilance in what you monitor.
Intent is certainly NOT killer instinct. Again thats just a kind of warped concentrated rage again, I mean just how unbalanced can you get?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by Repulsive Monkey
"Pretend the man in front of you has just killed your mother, now you have intention"????
That's an awfull and incorrect peice of advice. No you don't have intention at all you just have rage, and remorse and that totally negates good intention. Intention should be free from emotion, it should be just pure unadulterated vigilance in what you monitor.
Intent is certainly NOT killer instinct. Again thats just a kind of warped concentrated rage again, I mean just how unbalanced can you get?

RM,

So what is intention? how balance is balance?
please enlightent us.



Ernie,

My intention is just to Kiss Diaz.
You know what I mean? I intent to Kissssss DIAZ. :D

not lust or desire or capture or day dream her lips are sexy.......man.

But I wouldnt say the intention is not give raised from lust, desire, or capture....

You think Diaz's lips is sexy? :D.
That is not intention that is I got your attention. hahahahaha



S T,

Whats the best way to develop your intention?---ST


What kind of Dumm question is that ? :D (JK)


Look at Diaz and let's Diaz develop your intention.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


A very good discussion.


I have some mixed feelings about this.

1) Some say that we should be relaxed and empty of all thoughts.

2) Some say we should be fierce/ferocious when attacking.


Now, I think its a combo of both but the ferocious part is often misleading. It doesn't need to be kill kill kill in the mind. Then you will become anxious and too worked up. Staying relaxed with no pre-determined thoughts is the first start and then allow your methods to adapt to what they give you and just attack their core until they are down.


Gotta run!

[gilsinger]

Perhaps the question that started this thread could be asked more specifically. The answers seem to be all over the place, because everyone is interpreting the question in a different way.

I took the question to mean "how does one better express their form without just repeating it over and over again and waiting for the understanding to fall from the sky?"

I could respond to that question, but I'm not sure that it's the question being asked.

Teebas: ask your question again! I think we need some clarification as to what you're after.

[S.Teebas]

Teebas: ask your question again! I think we need some clarification as to what you're after.

What factors play in the how much intention you have?

For example if chi-sauing with a new student they will use muscle to PUSH to get in. However if you chi-sau with a master they seem to have a force in their chi-sau that's much different.

Lets say the new student stops all pushing (ie forcing their arm through with all their might), instead they are now looking for a gap to appear through using position. Now, once that gap appears..most of the time their hand will NOT shoot through immediately.

On the flip side of the coin, if this scenario were to occur with a master, their arm will shoot through at a hundred miles an hour immediately becasue their intention is much stronger to go to the desired target.

To use an anology: The new student who has found the gap during chi-sau could be related to dropping an apple to the ground on earth.
The master can be related to droping an apple to the ground on jupiter (where the gravity is many, many times more powerful) - ((and yes i know jupiter is made of gas but for the sake of understanding i hope this anology works))

If a person doing wing chun doesn't have that, what do they need to do to make it appear or increase!?....specifically.

That's what i mean. :)

[S.Teebas]

"courage first, power second, technique third"

Ten Tigers,
What do you mean by "power second"?

Why is this order chosen and not another?

[PaulH]

S. Teebas,

If you have watched the final "Rings", you would not ask this question! Perhaps the Ring have clouded your mind! Ha! Ha!

Regards,

PH

[Chum Kil]

Yi - mind, intent

Talk to some Tai Chi, Yiquan people. Movement without moving, stillness within motion. Chi is not used, but yi.

[anerlich]

Intention should be free from emotion

When did you last see Enter the Dragon? "I said *emotional* content, not anger". You mightn't want incandescent rage, but you certainly want controlled aggression.

Intention has to be directed outwards, and is more to do with where your attention is then anywhere else. If your attention is on what YOU are doing or feeling rather than on what is actually happening in the arena, you are looking in the wrong place.

Basically you want your attention able to be expressed in a simple statement, like "strike at the core" or "take 'em down, choke 'em out". Everything you do is a step in that direction. Anything more complex, or containing the name of a specific technique, is too indirect for likely success.

Watch Rickson's matches in "Choke", or Royce's with Jimmerson and Shamrock in UFC1 for marvels of intention - precisely channelled and controlled aggression.

I'd point to WC rather than BJJ / Vale Tudo examples on video ... if I knew of any.

[TenTigers]

First courage-we all have met the guy who has no martial arts training at all, but has the mindset of a badger."I may not know Kung-Fu, but I know crazy!"
You can have power, and technique, but without the cajones to use it, it is useless.
Second, power-if you have the mindset, and you have power, but no technique-you still have the advantage
Third-technique/skill-(Gung-Fu)without the first two-technique is useless. No intent-no Gung-Fu, no ging, no Gung-Fu, No Lik, No Gung-Fu What good is your tan-sao, when anyone can blast right through you, and your punches won't hurt my your Grandmother.
I did not make up this phrase, it is a standard axiom in Gung-Fu.
"Yat -Yung, Yee-Lik, Sam-Gung-Fu"

[PaulH]

Hey S. Teebas,

Since 10 tigers give out the secret, you don't have to see the movie anymore. Please excuse my crude troll's humor. Okay, my Precious, back to the Middle Line.

Regards,

PH

[Mr Punch]

I would hope my intention is a calm reservoir, manifested by finding the fastest resistance free channel to my opponent. Or another way, my fists are iron balls to a magnet target.

In practice, my intent is usually too obvious, leading to lots of flailing around.

In practise when I've needed it, I've found it to more like my ideal, calm, a choosing shots. However, I think this is more my character than my training...! :eek:

[Mr Punch]

I like Ten Tigers's answer too. If I were to analyse intention, that would probably come close. I prefer to save it as the pool though!!! If I analyse, I can't fight.

As for aggression, that's just a different substance in my pool...! It can taint the supply forever though.

[S.Teebas]

Hey, while we are on the subject of intention. What's the difference between intention and pushing?

[Phenix]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Hey, while we are on the subject of intention. What's the difference between intention and pushing?


Intention is a will setting of mind.
pushing is an act to realized what the will setting.

[foolinthedeck]

remember bruce lees analogy of water behind a dam?
does the water push at the dam?
does it 'intend' to break through?
certainly there are forces acting on it such as gravity, friction, resistance and so on. But essentially the water just is. Thinking nothing, intending nothing, following its nature.

when a gap in the dam appears the water pours through, it did not gain any intention at this point. it certainly does not gain killer instinct or agression.

when mr lee said 'be like water' did he perhaps mean - have no intention? simply be yourself, follow your essential nature of wing chun. it is a direct punching along the centreline. when you are wing chun there is no need of intention. Intention is once again another definition of an indefinable.

so dont train intention, train wing chun, perhaps why beginners appear to have less intention, they have less wing chun.

this reasoning may be wrong entirely, but allow the possibility of thinking outside the box.

sometimes i see intention as magnetic. my hands natural position lies on opponents chest or face, there is no intention to strike, the opposite is true(r) i have to hold back, pull against the natural magnetism of the opposition.

the deer catches the eye of the hunter
without intention he strikes
hunters hunt, that is their essential nature
yet it is the deer that has caught the hunter.

[yylee]

Originally posted by S.Teebas
Hey, while we are on the subject of intention. What's the difference between intention and pushing?

if intent is like water flowing through a hose, pushing or using brute muscle strength is like putting rocks inside the hose - water does not flow smoothly.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Again intention and controlled aggression are two different things I think you're getting confused.
Controlled agression is almost a hypocritical anaolgy when you think of it, in fact definitely an oxymoron at least.
Intent is like a single pointed direct of pure willed awreness onto a subject/object. Once presence totally reaches and mixes with it. Agression can be directed towards someone, but intention is done without emotion and in that end it is like water, in that it can change fluidly if needs to be depeding on the nature of change that the Tao is.

Agression may temporarily make the body feel strong, but it always makes the mind weak. People who are agressive for a lifestyle are ultimately weakened people, who are unbalanced.

[anerlich]

I think you're getting confused.

You are in no position to judge, and that's just your opinion.

My opinion: you may find this profound


but intention is done without emotion and in that end it is like water, in that it can change fluidly if needs to be depeding on the nature of change that the Tao is.

but to me its just meaningless pseudo Zen doublespeak. I've heard that sort of stuff from the best and they didn't convince me of anything either.

Actually *I* think *you* are confusing aggression with emotions such as anger. Aggression is behaviour rather than mental state. Mostly to do with attacking, invasion, hostility, etc. it is true, but we are discussing a combat art here, which is fundamentally about damaging or (at least temporarily) incapacitating people. I think it is possible to be aggressive without the emotions involved, which I regard as one form of intention.


People who are agressive for a lifestyle are ultimately weakened people, who are unbalanced.

That's quite a generalisation, which I'm not sure would stand up to empirical observation. And who said anything about aggression for a lifestyle? We're discussing combat or sportfighting here, events of limited duration, not a permanent attitude. If Mike Tyson exemplifies what you are talking about, I guess I agree. Bu there are plenty who can be aggressive in the ring or on the football field or hockey rink and not carry it over into the rest of their lives. We hear of "aggressive businessmen" or "aggressive surfers", often in approving tones, and they don't always go home and beat up their families or try to annex small European countries.

Aggression is not a dirty word.

[Ernie]

anerlich


Aggression is not a dirty word


well put infact those that often visit the ''Aggression'' dark side are the calmest most centered biengs you will come across they have been honest with that part of human nature and thus have a more controlled and channeled response the the guy that sits under the water fall and just thinks about it.

all warriors who have fought life and death struggles , have felt the full gambit of human emotion , the difference is they come to grips with it .
intent / rage / fear / passion / hatred and so on all part of the animal in us
you can run from it , talk your way around it , try and pray it away but in the end you must meet it and learn to accept and deal with it on a very basic level ,

then you are really being honest with yourself , since you get to spend time with your core self at it's most pure .

until then your just fooling yourself until something really bad comes along and brings it out of you and if you have never been there before it might take you over .

but for most of us god willing we will never have to face that reality and we can just meditate on it:D

[planetwc]

Ernie,

I've heard similar things from Marc McYoung (sp?) about learning to "unleash" the beast when need be. He also advocates learning how to deal with this side of our selves. At one point on a discussion email list many years ago, he was thinking about broaching this subject in more detail but had reservations about people making sure they understood what they were getting into.

I think for some of us (myself included) that is a scary place to go as the feeling is that one would be "out of control" and that may not be a good thing in terms of then being able to control that on other occasions when you face day to day anger or stress at some situation where "going medievel on someone" might not be prudent.

In some senses that is the extreme area some go to when fighting. I wonder if there is a middle ground in terms of a "street fighters" mindset of aggression.

What do you think?

[Ernie]

planet wing chun
In some senses that is the extreme area some go to when fighting. I wonder if there is a middle ground in terms of a "street fighters" mindset of aggression.

What do you think?


well i don't see it as extreme just being honest with your nature
i have been through quite a few drills and situations which cultivate this '' killer instinct ''
and your right most don't want to train that aspect , there are many internal walls you have to go though .

i was first introduced '' or should i say became aware '' of this emotional wall in a seminar with david peterson , we dove into them mentality of a street fighter , stradagies ways to mentally disarm some one , getting mentally disarmed and randomly violently attacked be it on physical , verbal , or psycological level.

later i worked with a jkd friend of mine who is a ex marine and who helps train navy seals and he took me through a ton of mental conditioning drills , stress overload drills , and pyscological drills .
there was a ot off pain and blood with this guy he really broke me down and explored that mental '' dark side ''

then you learn to recognize that life throws situations at you all the time were you have to tap into that survival instinct
for example a few years ago i fell off a cliff while mountain bike rideing , i got folded in half on impact sheered 3 vertabre in my lower back ,broke a few ribs and twisted my ankle .
but i still had 5 miles and a few thousand feet down the mountain to get out .
had to deal with alot of emotion and pain and become very intent on surviving.
i remember about half way down i had to cross a river while using my bike as a crutch/anchor i fell again and a large branch on the shore line punctured a hole in my back . man i thought i couldn't take anymore i was looking up at the sky bleeding and i just got ****ed , i wasn't going to go out like that so i cused out everything around me and kept going .

two years later i had a bad fall snow boarding and busted my collar bone in three places it was popping out of my shoulder '' very sick' and i had to hike down the mountain .

what did i learn '' besides i'm accident prone :D ''

i became in touch with that very basic primal part of my human nature and i could tap in and will myself to continue

this intent and ability to become very clear with your hole being on one goal for a long period of time , when your weak and in pain , is very similar '' at least in my mind '' to what i felt when i did those stress over load and combat drills

the positive is i gave me a very deep calmness when i face things i'm very hard to rattle , i can become very centered when i put my mind to it , i have also learned to de huminize people they become a thing trying to kill me and thus need to be terminated .

the negitive is you can become very agressive in your everyday life '' not be able to fit into society''
i remember gary telling me this is a warrior mindset that you only need in time of war but it is un healthy to walk around switched on with that type of intent

over all i'm glad i went though it but i'll be honest i don't train at that level anymore but when ever i spar or freestyle in chi sau i play with the trigger in my head just so i can control it and it wont control me :D

[Repulsive Monkey]

Some of the things you have said are not to be knocked, and I respect your opinion, but like another post which mentions "releasing the beast from within" and its allusions towards bursts of agression, I still don't see the need for it in my art, as I don't use it to get the job done. I do understand that any fighter will personalise what they need to acheive their ends, but in internal arts one most certainly doesn't need it and in fact it negates some of the aspects that are available too.

It's a shame that you label some of what I said as Pseudo Zen-babble because my master has taught be about Taoism is so intergal to internal arts and I have found myself in real situations where I have had physical conflict (one incident only a week ago in defending my girlfriend one night down town in front of a club) and I know now that if I hadn't taken the Taoist approach it would of been me down on the floor instead of the two creeps that were there in my place.
Agression didn't enter into the use of my art that night.

[planetwc]

Thanks for the detailed reply. Very useful information. I think each of us has to decide how we are going to approach fighting.

Of course as someone said, "everyone has a plan for a fight until they get hit" -- which makes me think that the kind of pressure training you mention has absolute merit. It seems to me that is also what the navy does in training during BUDS for SEAL team candidates. Pushing them to find those few who will continue to push on no matter what.

Then again, those folks are out on the edge in extreme situations. Guess it depends on the kind of lifestyle you are in and the chances of exposure to violence.

Or if you go snowboarding and mountain biking! :D

I sure hope you don't do hang gliding--too many good folks have crashed into mountains and houses doing that activity.

[Ernie]

I sure hope you don't do hang gliding--too many good folks have crashed into mountains and houses doing that activity....planet wing chun



ha ha not me ,
i don't do well in the air learned that the hard way as a kid doing bmx tricks in a pool , rt leg compund fracture:)
yep i'm a mess

[PaulH]

Good post, Ernie! I think I can relate to your experience of just trying to be a survivor. My Dad told me that while he was at the "re-educated" camp ran by the Vietnamese commies, some of his camp prisoners while on the field and nobody watching catched some hapless jumping frogs nearby and swallowed them live! This was the only protein they will get for years to come! Honestly I think I can't do it but who knows... You do the weirdest thing to survive.

Regards,
PH

[old jong]

You are opening a good "box" with your last post!...It is very true that human beings can go to that place where pain ,wounds and whatever happens can be just put aside for survival.
Soldiers have it in their training.Some corps more hard than others but it is still "training" and not real!...The biggest risk there is often to be kicked out of the program.
The pro fighters also will often go to that place.They will endure pain and sometimes risk getting badly hurt but,most of the times ,they only risk losing and pockeying less money!...
On the other hand,the woman who bravely resist a rapist agression and get all bloddied by knifes cuts and still manage to fight her attacker away without any special training. The store clerk who notice his bullet wound only after he manage to neutralise the armed robber who was ready to shoot everybody in the place.The lady in western Canada who ,a few years ago barehandly fought and chased away a cougar who was attacking a child.
There are thousands of stories of this kind.This proves that humans can reach into normally unknown force and energy when there is no other alternatives.

The almost surhuman strengh of mental patients ,I know well, is an other aspect of this subject.

[anerlich]

It's a shame that you label some of what I said as Pseudo Zen-babble because my master has taught be about Taoism is so intergal to internal arts

I don't have, nor do I need or want, a master.

IMNSHO, masters are for dogs.

I have a couple of instructors who I am also lucky enough to call friends. They regard me as mature enough not to require spiritual guidance, but to be able to determine my own path, and expect me to do so, as a functional human being.

I've had the misfortune to meet several "masters", "spiritual guides" and "adepts" who were frauds quacks and manipulators, though some had MA talent. "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

That has given me an obsession and compulsion about bursting such bubbles whenever I see them, so sorry if I come on a little strong in that regard.

I studied much about Taoism and Buddhism in my youth. A bit later I realised that character and morality have to come from within, not from someone else's idea of what higher consciousness and spiritual growth are. Not to say that Taoism is rubbish, but there's more to it than highfalutin quotes about water.

I could tell some war stories too, in which Taoism played no part.

Not exactly in the Christmas spirit I know ... sorry.

[Ernie]

old j
from your job i know you see what the human animal is cabable of i don't mean that in a disrespectful towards those that are ill but in a honest observation of what one human can do to another .
it's a scary thing , when some one no longer cares for there life is incapable of responding to pain.

i have seen it in the streets quite a few times , when people are dopped up or just inraged .

my brother has a similar job as yours and has been bit and thrown by small ladies

he had one lady come at him with a knife of some sort who had never shown a single violent tendency , he had to kick her dead in the chest repedily just to slow her down he still got cut , and fired .

but since we have been children we have had the animal conditioned right out of us with that magic word '' no''

so in the study of combat i feel you should progressivly expose yourself to those insticts ,
not in a uncontrolled fashion , but in drills that draw it out . but like anything don't hardcore all the time .

as for injuries i have had a few and seen more when i trained that stuff and left it when it started effect my job and mental well being ,
i would walk down the street and invision taking people out , this was one of the awarness drills , ,makes for a paranoid day:D

paul
dude you will do what it takes to survive it is ingrained , i'm a vegiterien but if my life depended on it canabal city:eek:

[old jong]

Quote:
" i would walk down the street and invision taking people out , this was one of the awarness drills , ,makes for a paranoid day "

Ha!Ha!...Don't we all do that from times to times?...It is perfectly normal for us: Martial artists. I wonder how many looked at Santa in the shopping center and thought ; "I could take the big guy!" ;) :D
Just beware of sumoris in red suits! :eek:

[Ernie]

i was recently at disney land and had the uncontrolable desire to tackle mickey
just thought it would be the funniest thing :)

[old jong]

:D There is a mascot at Quebec city's winter carnaval called "Bonhomme Carnaval". He's a guy dressed as a big snowman.
He was victim of multiple frying pans attacks after a crasy TV show made fun of beating a representation of him with frying pans!...People found the idea funny!...It lasted until he got police protection.:rolleyes:

[anerlich]

I occasionally walk past a McDonald's which has a life size statue of Ronald McDonald sitting on a bench.

I've always wished I was with someone with a camera so they could snap me slapping a rear naked choke on it.

[old jong]

Yeah and I would join by kicking him in the balls (if he has balls!) and after we could make him eat and choke on the poop he's feeding our kids!....Oups!...Getting a little agressive here!....:rolleyes: ;) Too much "intention,I guess!...;)

[yuanfen]

I am no fan of McDonalds and their magic money touch goes on , BUT FWIW-the founders widow in her will left millions of dollars
for civic programs, educational institutions and charities.