koryu

[Falcor]

Has anyone here studied Koryu arts? Koryu arts are _old school_ Japanese martial arts that were invented and propogated before the Meiji period. Many of them are real samurai arts - i.e. they include the study of unarmed techniques like jujutsu as well as the study of various weapons including the sword, Yari (the spear), naginata (the halberd), chains, knives, etc. They are often different in strucutre of the curriculum and emphasis than many of the "modern" arts like Judo, aikido, Karate, etc.

The reason I ask is that in many ways, our regular kung fu training is like that, where we study the unarmed technques, as well as the techniques of using various battlefield weapons which don't apply nowadays. The "modern" JMA like karate, Judo, Aikido, kendo usually specialize or emphasize either empty hand alone, or have only a limited amount of weapons taught in their regular curriculum.

If you've done Koryu before, I'd like to hear your perspective on similarities or differences between those arts, and the CMA that you practice now. I would also be interested in hearing about what and which _aspects_ of the two that you like better or not like in your opinion. Thanks.

[Okinawan_Lohan]

Well, I've dabble briefly in the koryu of the Uchinadi, so I will try to give some answer to your question.

First, I'm going to be a bit nit-picky; karate isn't really Japanese, but Okinawan. yes, Okinawa is currently under the Japanese flag, but, in terms of martial arts, it must be counted as a separate entity. Japan does have it's own forms of karate, though.

Anyway, the Koryu of Okinawa in some ways resembles current CMA training. Obviously, certain types of training will not be in use, as time constraints and the ever-present need to pay the rent tend to squeeze out different aspects of the instruction.

With all fairness, it doesn't follow that one could/should try to draw a parallel between "old world" training and modern day training for two different cultural styles.

So, to answer your question: kinda.

[Vash]

What he said.

[stimulant]

I actually tried to tell a japanese person that karate was from Okinawa and that the japanese had changed the meaning of 'karate', but they were having none of it!

[Vash]

Technically, it was the Okinawans who "officially" changed it. There was a meeting of the prominent toudi practitioners, and it was decided to officially change the character in toudi (alternate pronunciation "karate") to karate. The previous character, "tou," referenced the Tang dynasty of China.

Tang became, to the Okinawans, the embodiment of China.

Okinawan Lohan could give a hella lot more info than me.

[stimulant]

from a brief conversation I had with a very well respected (and it has to be said), and immensly skilled and dangerous Gojo Ryu Sensai I've known for 7 years, I was under the impression that the okinawans originally ment for the characters in karate to mean 'give respect to china' or something along those lines, but the japanese changed it to empty hand much to the okinawans dismay.

I'll be please again for an enlightenment people wish to share with me.

[Okinawan_Lohan]

Yes, the previous version of "karate" translated as Tang Hand, or China Hand, as it was during the Tang dynasty that relations between China and Okinawa really blossomed. This is true not only in the influence of martial arts, but culture, trading, things of that nature.

Previous to Funakoshi's book, "Karate Do Kyohan," karate had been written with both "Tou" and "kara," depending on the author. However, Funakoshi is usually credited with spreading the use of "empty" in place of "China."

The general story which is passed on of the Japanese changing the spelling against Okinawan seems to have grown from miscommunications between foreign servicemen who trained in the arts briefly, then left.

This story's validity, that is, the involuntary change of characters, is non-existent. It is just another example of unresearched "history" which is passed down from dojo to dojo.

It kind of reminds me of a story about Tatsuo Shimabuku, founder of Isshinryu. It goes that, during the war, Tatsuo evaded military service under the Japanese by hiding. But, he was eventually discovered. However, his martial prowess was so well-known, the troops involved agreed not to tern him in if he instructed them in karate. A very unlikely story, considering the discipline of the Japanese army in regard to orders, the animosity between Okinawans and Japan, and several other factors of that time.

When researching martial history, it is best to stick to whatever has four reliable sources. I try to stick to governmental records and testimonies of those involved, when at all possible.

[stimulant]

:):) a big thanks for the info!

[sing fu]

Hi,

I do a comprehensive koryu system with weapons, unarmed etc, and some other auxilliary koryu weapons, and have some basic chinese training from my family. I think you're spot on with the comprehensive nature of koryu and chinese arts, and that one of the major differentiating points is the cultural influence both arts' cultures have had on them.

Gotta go but will check in later!

[Vash]

sing fu

what style do you do? Is it Okinawan or Japanese?

[sing fu]

Vash,

I train in a few Japanese styles - hontai yoshin-ryu and yagyu shingan-ryu center on jujutsu, but also include staff, sword, cane and other weapons, as well as some other weapons training :)

One difference between koryu and kungfu is the training method - short two man sets and drills - is great with koryu. In most cases the "application(s)" of a movement is straight forward and you can work it over and over with a partner, but with chinese arts, a long set is good for categorising the movements to be studied and developing your endurance and jing.

Another one is the types of attacks traditionally trained against. Traditional japanese arts have little striking, and it is simpler than chinese arts. On the other hand, although some influence from chinese arts are felt in the Japanese, as with other Altaic cultures, the Japanese are good at grappling/wrestling, so lots of throws and locking etc are found too.

I'll leave it there for others to chime in now.

[rogue]

Never trust Isshinryu people. They punch funny and what the hell happened to the beginner katas?

BTW Go here for two articles on Choki Motubu (http://www.fightingarts.com/) Lots of politics when karate made the jump to Japan.

[Vash]

That sounds cool. I've never been much for weapons, though. As unlikely as an actual confrontation is, I prefer to train in something I know I'm capable of applying, and my weapons suck.

I like the bo, though. I play pool a lot on my downtime, so there's some definite carry-over.

Me, I've never had much of an affinity for the Japanese-based styles. Don't know why.

[Vash]

Originally posted by rogue
Never trust Isshinryu people. They punch funny and what the hell happened to the beginner katas?

BTW Go here for two articles on Choki Motubu (http://www.fightingarts.com/) Lots of politics when karate made the jump to Japan.

Yes, we Isshinryu people are truly . . . what's the word? ;)

Those articles were good. You should check out the book; they have it in their eStore at Fightingarts. Very good. There's a very "Bruce Lee" quote on page 46 . . . "Liberate yourself from fixed postures and seek to cultivate unconstrained technique and movement."

It's too bad no one in Isshinryu studied under Motobu. :eek:

[sing fu]

You Okinawan guys have some really good stuff with the unarmed striking/grappling and weapons.

We spend some solid time working with weapons like the cane, short chain etc which can be translated into makeshift self-defense weaponry too. I definately don't think spear or halberd is up there in terms of street-applicability though! ;)

[Vash]

I'd like to learn some cane techniques. I'm sure that'd transfer well to an umbrella. Thinking about buying a cane, too. Just in case.

[CrippledAvenger]

If I remember correctly (someone tell me if I'm wrong ;) ), weren't all the Koryu listed in some Meiji-era text? If so, is there a list floating around online with the various ryu and what they taught?

Just curious..

[kenso]

Real koryu (and consequently real koryu practitioners) are very rare in the west. Although technically the term koryu encompasses any Japanese martial art practiced prior to the Meiji restoration (1868), in essence the separation between koryu and gendai arts is both vaguer and sharper than it first appears. True koryu encompass much more than a comprehensive grouping of arts; a koryu encompasses the traditional clannish mentality of ancient Japan. Whether this is for good or ill is up for debate.

There is a certain romantic appeal to the notion that one is practicing a truly ancient art, steeped in tradition, and known only to a few. These arts do exist, and by and large these arts are strictly found in Japan. Period. There are a few exceptions: the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu is now authorizing a few select teachers outside of Japan. [There is an entire generation of European TSKSR students and instructors who have been "orphaned" because they were students of a teacher who was not granted full transmission rights, but that's a can o' worms I won't get into right now.] The Kashima Shin Ryu has a full Menkyo Kaiden practicing in the US (Professor Karl Friday, a noted martial arts scholar), and the Shindo Muso Ryu style of jodo is actually fairly wide spread. I'm sure there are a few examples out there I have overlooked, but the simple fact is that the majority of schools out there touting themselves as koryu are either mistaken or fraudulent.

[sing fu]

CA,

An encyclopedia-like book called Bugei Ryuha Daijiten was written by a writer called Watatani Kiyoshi in the 1970s, and contained several thousand different styles of arts we'd call koryu today - that's a lot of different perspectives stretched out over Japan's history!

Kenso,

I see different koryu arts as existing on a scale of "clannish-ness": jodo and shinden muso-ryu/MJER for example don't require blood oathes of students and don't rank according to densho/makimono, whereas other arts expect students to follow no other martial arts traditions, sign a pledge with their blood, and follow a teaching method which respects secrecy.

What other differences/similarities are there that exist between kungfu and koryu? :)

[rogue]

Well they both attract geeks...:D

Another reason not to trust Isshinryu guys, they do Naihanchi backwards! Will their madness ever stop.:eek:

[Okinawan_Lohan]

Originally posted by rogue
[BAnother reason not to trust Isshinryu guys, they do Naihanchi backwards! Will their madness ever stop.:eek: [/B]

No. It shall continue on and on, until we have crushed all those who dare oppose us. ;)

Just curious, Rogue, what style do you practice?

[rogue]

Ummmm, I'm currently doing an art that's a hybrid of two Okinawan arts, but that is at the same time unique.

[cerebus]

LOL! Do you guys punch funny too? :D :p

[rogue]

Not funny just different. The difference is we don't do naihanchi backward, just mirrored.:D

[Vash]

Ah. Truly, Isshinryu has gone astray :D

Is it a native Okinawan art, this hybrid, or one developed outside from these two arts.

Wait, now that I think about it . . . that kinda sounds like . . . NOOOO, couldn't be ;)

[cerebus]

Admit it Vash, you're doing Okinawan Shaolin-Do :D :D :D .

[Vash]

That is SO completely beside the point. ;)

[cerebus]

Your founding grandmaster was really a hairy faced dude from the Shorin Temple (the one in southern Japan, as opposed to Northern Japan) which was then burned down by the reigning Shogun. :D :D :D

[jimbob]

If any of you are interested in the Koryu arts, I'd urge you to check the website of my friend Patrick McCarthy. Just search under his name - you'll turn it up. His approach is truly illuminating. Interestingly enough, he was one of the very first Western shootfighters in Japan - but his focus is very much on interpreting forms/kata these days.

[cerebus]

Patrick McCarthy was a shootfighter?

[Vash]

Shootfighting? I didn't know that.

[No_Know]

Relevat to the topic (flash site) (http://www.canemasters.com/CMFlash.html)

seems relevant to the topic (http://canemasters.com)

A video series site it seemed, yet with information and techniques (some showed).

[jimbob]

Patrick is many things! Yes - he was a shootfighter. He was actually instrumental in helping to coin the name "Pancrase" in the early days.

Go to his site and check out his photo albums. You may even stumble across me!

[Kempo Guy]

I currently train in a Sogo Bujutsu (an art including jujutsu, kenjutsu, iaijutsu, naginatajutsu, tantojutsu, jojutsu among other things). I have also had brief experiences with other koryu and some gendai jujutsu (primarily Hakko Ryu).

When speaking of koryu, you are traditionally speaking of Japanese arts founded pre-Meiji restoration. Some arts have a very clear and distinct lineage back to the founder while other arts can be a family art, passed on only within the family without much thought of using menkyo (licensing systems). There are family ryugi still practiced in Japan (one popular teacher is Tetsuzan Kuroda in Omiya city, Japan).

As for koryu in the US, besides those mentioned by Kenso, there are a few Yagyu Shinkage Ryu groups (both Edo and Owari groups); Suio Ryu Iai Kenpo study groups; Shidare Yanagi Ryu Aiki Bugei (although there's apparently some dispute as to whether it's a koryu or gendai); Tendo Ryu Naginatajutsu; a couple of Mugai Ryu Iai Hyodo affiliated dojo; Kuroda-ha ryugi study groups; Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu (although a gendai bujutsu, it has roots in a koryu system); Toda-ha Buko Ryu Naginata-jutsu; Itto Ryu Kenjutsu (a few different variations); a couple of different Araki Ryu groups... to mention a few (I'm sure I still missed some). This does not include the various Eishin and Muso Shinden Ryu affiliated dojo. So there's plenty of koryu to pick from. :)



On a different note, I can think of another similarity between kung fu and some koryu. Some koryu systems use a unifying principle to tie their weapon work and empty hand, i.e. their jujutsu movements are congruent with how you would move with thier sword or how they use a tanto. I think this is similar to some Kung Fu systems like BaJi or Xing Yi, AFAIK, where the movements of the empty hand (read 'principles') are the same as the use of the spear within their respective systems... or so I've read (please correct me if I'm wrong).

KG

[Kempo Guy]

BTW, some good resources regarding koryu are:
www.koryu.com
www.furyu.com

KG