Weakness of Wing Chun: the Bon Sao?

[fa_jing]

A major complaint that I hear from serious practicioners of other CMA's regarding Wing Chun, is that the Bon Sao exposes the lead elbow to the opponent to be grabbed and/or flipped. I remember that my first Wing Chun instructor showed me how to flip a person's bon sao and how to defend against it, in one of the first lessons. So, what is your verbal response to this contention, and, can someone please run down for me the Wing Chun thinking regarding flipping the opponent's Bon Sao, countering this flip attempt, and how to protect the elbow from a grab when perfoming the Bon Sao. Thanks.

-Keith

[ntc]

Difficult to explain how... easier to show because can feel and sense opponent, but will try to illustrate here. It all goes back to sensitivity via Chi Sao, and not resisting an opponent's force. Here are some examples (again, don't see them as formulated techniques... try to visualize where the energy is coming from/going, and why the moves are done the way they are):

- bong sao elbow is flipped upwards --> go with the flow, convert the elbow to fak sao (next move, stepping in or not, depends on both people's structure, openings, energy, etc.)
- bong sao elbow pulled toward opponent --> convert to lower gum sao going along with the pull, and followed by potential shoulder strike into opponent as you flow with the force into the opponent
- bong sao elbow pushed downward --> elbow will drop along with pushed force, wrist pretty much remains, and the arm becomes tan sao readily, thus readily neutralizing the push-control and regaining your structure

Again, these are not formulas.... simply examples of ways to counter. Moves are dictated by the opponent's strengths, openings, energy flows, opponent's size, plus your own structure. Bong Sao is a passive, soft block in Wing Chun (hence, the Wu sao is always there to support the outer "wing" arm as well as act as the last form of protection from a smack in the face), but is also one of the most effective blocks in the WC system. More often than not, a practitioner's bong sao is controlled and trapped because the person is stiff and not soft, hence not able to go with the flow of force and adjust accordingly.

[old jong]

I would say that the real weakness of Wing Chun is the guy behind the technique.
If the other has times for grabbing or pulling ,you have even more times to punch him in the mouth.;)

[Phil Redmond]

Also, if the bong is pushed downwards or in at the wrist it can turn into an elbow strike.

[ntc]

Phil.... exactly.... an example of the Biu Jee elbow strike application. Good point.

[planetwc]

Your Bong Sao should not hang like a picture in a museum (placed, hung and admired).

Rather it is the flash which is triggered if sufficient incoming force is detected as heading your way...

It "happens", does it's job and DISAPPEARS.

If it doesn't then those other Nam Kuen guys will indeed consider it a gift.

As I remember, the Bong Sao is really only supposed to be seen against other Wing Chun people. Outside hands should not end up triggering it, but "stuff happens".

[Ultimatewingchun]

David Willliams is right: bong sao happens - does its job - and then disappears. It's a great defensive move when used properly...and only when absolutely necessary.

[Mr Punch]

It's too easy to flip most wing chunners' elbows.

:eek:

You don't need to be a master: anyone who can lap effectively should be able to do it, and anybody who has been lapped effectively is susceptible. :eek: :eek:

The idea that in the time it takes to get a grab you can pummel your opponent is specious.
Even the here so-called 'flip' can be initiated with one hand, while the other hand is beating on you. Assuming you've missed your precious sensitivity cues, who will win? The guy with one hand controlling a short disruption of the other guy's structure and the other hand hitting him, or the guy who doesn't practise any chin-na or whatever, or even any basic quick release against a grab, who is on the end of one of these disruptions and is flailing about to try and land one decent strike while stiffening up his painful arm??

Three points in answer to other posters:

1) I would agree a bong shouldn't stay, shouldn't hang, shouldn't chill out having a beer with its mates... but anyone who's practised with a chunner (esp one who chi saos to the exclusion of any starting disengaged drills) has plenty of time to send an invitation for the bong to come up. Then it's a simple progression to get it to stay, hang out, pull it off into the corner, dress it up and start calling it Aunt Mary.

2) Same as any other grappling argument: just cos you've never practised with someone who is effective with this kind of arm lock/uproot, doesn't mean they're not out there. Find them, practice with them, then talk about it. Or, you could just come here and talk about it!;)

3) Forgotten the other one. But it was good!:D

[Savi]

I think the weakness in not in WC, but in the person using it. If something you do has been countered, it is only due to a failure of not capitalizing on what you are trying to achieve. That could be due to an improper intent behind your reactions.

Do you do a Bong Sau just because it can redirect a punch? If so, then what? Get stuck into looping fight of this technique vs that technique hoping yours will work better? Or do you do a Bong Sau because you intend to challenge their center of gravity and redirect their punch at the same time (just an example)? What is your intent behind the Bong Sau? What is your goal, your strategy? What are you trying to steal from the opponent?

The only unstoppable technique is the one that steals your reaction time by stealing your space, and does not allow you to ability to apply the counter energetics. In other words, you've run out of time and space to use your energetics.

If you can maintain those three values within yourself during combat, there is always an escape and counter to everything. You just have to be perceptive and knoweldgeable enough to capitalize on those opportunities.

[aelward]

I would counter and say that Bong Sao is the strength of Wing Chun. It is the tool that helps you maintain forward energy when an opponent is pressing on the outside of your arm; it helps redirect an opponent past his own centerline; can be used to cover your upper gates when the arm is being pulled; can be executed either high or low based upon the circumstance... the list goes on.

I think the key is that it is a means of not fighting a changing in force with muscle but rather for transitioning to maintain correct structure. And, of course, it is very transitory.

If by flipping, these guys mean pushing up under the elbow while pulling down on the wrist so as to make the chicken-wing lock-- several schools practice against this type of attack with shoulder butts, gum saos, clearing one of your opponent's arms, etc. I agree with Mat though, this type of practice should be done with a partner's actual intention of executing the lock.

I also have a relative who is a 4th Dan in Aikido and said that it would be easy to put someone into a wrist lock as well (Steven Seagal's famous hand wrapping motion).

I say let these people believe in these weaknesses... if we train well, their preconceptions may be their undoing :>P:

[yuanfen]

aelward in Oakland and John in DC agree that:
I would counter and say that Bong Sao is the strength of Wing Chun.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agreed-
Bong sao is a beautiful, many faceted key wing chun motion-it's one of the 3 seed motions.
The supposed weaknesses of bong sao mentioned thus far are
weaknesses of the users in other parts of their structures and coordination IMO.

[Sekabin]

Not much to add really as the last 2 posts sum it up. So to summarise the summaries and add some(thing?):

1. you won't be able to counter that kind of lock unless you practice it (and most WC schools i know don't do kum na practice... and the ones that do have imported it and don't stick to wc principles half of the time).

2. do just that - stick to your principles. For them to get the arm lock on they have to shift their relative position to you, otherwise they have no angle to put the pressure on, so... footwork is important. Facing too.

3. If the s**t hits the fan, use BJ.

4. See no 1. :D

[yuanfen]

Bracketed notes on Sekabin's
post:

1. you won't be able to counter that kind of lock unless you practice it (and most WC schools i know don't do kum na practice... and the ones that do have imported it and don't stick to wc principles half of the time).

((not imported-kum na is a function- comes naturally with good wc))

2. do just that - stick to your principles. For them to get the arm lock on they have to shift their relative position to you, otherwise they have no angle to put the pressure on, so... footwork is important. Facing too.

((WC involves motion. Dead wc is more likely to be locked))

3. If the s**t hits the fan, use BJ.

((Don't need it-wc has its own fan form))

[old jong]

This misconception is common among those who consider Wing Chun motions as simple blocks!

[Sam]

Bong Sao as done in Fut Sao Wing Chun Kuen is transitional. Bong flows into loose hand movements or elbow, Biu Gee, and grabing/clawing. This is illustrated throughout the forms. Bui Gee elavates Bong to advanced sensitivity motions from big to small circle. http://futsaoyongchunkuen.com/

[Ultimatewingchun]

Savi's point about using bong sao to challenge the opponents' center of gravity - meaning that the redirection also serves to unbalance him by taking his space away...(ie.- by coming into him with bong sao from underneath...against a straight punch, for example, thereby "jamming him up") -

this is a point well worth repeating - as is the idea that you must quickly turn your bong sao "over"after taking the space away... with lop-da, lop/pak-da, or whatever.

[foolinthedeck]

with the bong sao flipped,
something comes.
a different position
but everything is still true.
holding on to definitions,
'bong sao', 'position', 'true'
everything is not true.
In our experience bong sao is flipped,
NOTHING happens.

[KPM]

Originally posted by old jong
This misconception is common among those who consider Wing Chun motions as simple blocks!


---I think this misconception is likely common among those who have seen WCK people doing chi sau. Since the majority of WCK people use a luk sau platform with a bong as one of the key structural elements, it stands to reason that a non-WCK person would assume that we put a lot of emphasis of the bong motion. They may mistake chi sau for fighting and say to themselves..."look how often the WCK guys have their elbows up flapping in the wind! Look how vulnuerable that bong sau is!" Let them think what they want!! :-) We all know that chi sau is not fighting and that when used appropriately as intended the bong is no more a liability than anything else. A WCK player that tries to fight or spar someone from another system from a luk sau structure DESERVES to get his elbow flipped and locked! But hopefully no one is doing that.

Keith

[Nick Forrer]

The correct forum in which to identify, address and overcome any potential flaws in ones bong sau is IMHO the bong lap drill.

The most common mistakes that I have seen people make when doing this drill are:
1) Collapsing the bong. That is, when forming the bong sau i.e. when the elbow begins to travel outside the line of the body, they bring the hand back at the same time. This will leave a gap (albeit momentarily) which someone applying forward pressure will be able to come through and strike. To avoid this the hand must stay where it is (in relation to the torso) until the action is completed. (when i say hand here i mean the hand of the arm perfoming bong sau)
2) Dipping the shoulder forwards as you bong. This will make it easier for your opponent to unbalance you if they decide to grab your bong with both hands and pull it down as well as making it harder for you to recover should you find yourself in this situation.
3) Not completing the bong i.e. not redirecting the opponents arm sufficiently with the consequence that they still have a line of attack aimed at your centre of gravity. This may also be the result of not turning enough.
4) Raising the bong. This will leave you vulnerable to tok sau i.e. having your elbow taken and pushed upwards and into you provided of course your opponent doesn't chase your bong as you raise it.
5) Not getting the wu sau back in time to cover should your opponent come over the top with for example fak sau i.e. a side neck chop.

By staying alert to all these mistakes when performing the drill (and asking your partner to do the same) you will help to eliminate them from your wing chun.

I should say that i have been guilty of all of these in the past (and probably still am to some degree)

I also agree that bong is better seen as a transitory action than as a static position.

regards

Nick

[old jong]

1 or 2 seconds is a very long times IMO! and...I don't really mind someones using both his hands on one of mine. That means I can hit him freely. It is also useless (and dangerous) to try "trapping" both hands together when facing somebody with more than six month experience IMO!

[old jong]

I "would maybe" step toward himd and use the bong arm to attack his balance then I could raise the bong a little to biu sau under while transforming the bong into wu sau. Now I would have control of his left to do whatever necessary to get the job done.
It is a lot more simple to do than to describe, believe me! ;)

Another simple solution is side kick him on the bong side!...;)

[old jong]

I prefer "Line taking" You don't have to "trap" anything .It is a JKD term based on some misconception on Wing Chun.

You just have to use good timing and occupate the defensive line as you attack and the opponent may feel trapped in a way but you are busy hitting not "trapping"

[Ultimatewingchun]

Old Jong:

It is useless (and dangerous) to try and trap someone's arms WHILE FACING THEM SQUARE ON...

But if you have gained their flank (or blindside)...

Then it's only dangerous for them.

[aelward]

To add to Nick Forrer's post on mistakes of the lap-bong sao drill, I would add:

6. Grabbing your partner's punching arm instead of clipping it. For example if you are in right bong/left wu, if you try to grab with your left hand instead of clip, your left elbow will rise, thereby opening up your structure and leaving your elbow open

7. Clipping to the side instead of clipping forward. Your energy verges to the side instead of heading forward.

8. Clipping too high instead of where your forearms meet. Obviously a Wing Chun vs. Wing Chun problem, but what can happen is that they sink their hand so you miss altogether, then do a lap sao/sat sao combination.

9. Flipping your partner's arm into bong sao-- you are doing the work for him, you should be doing a lap sao and he should use bong sao himself.

[aelward]

SC Guy writes:
> In single sticky hand drill, the Bong is used to deflect a straight
> punch to the face.

I find that if you try to use bong sao against a punch to the face in single hand sticky hands, you are doing nothing but guiding your opponents fist upward to its intended target. I would say to use bong sao against a punch to the chest or abdomen, where their force passively pushes you into a bong sao and then redirects their arm past their own centerline.

If they are punching toward your face, you can lift your hand (that has just palm striked) upward and punch them in the face, thereby taking the inside line and deflecting their punch off.

Just my own observations.

[hunt1]

This is a very funny topic ! In 150 years or so of doing bong saos noone in wing chun ever realized there was a weakness in bong sao till now. All those years of fighting and never did someone from another style try to take advantage of a bong sao by attacking the elbow. Wow, either Leung Jan , Chan Wa etc were all very lucky, everyone they fought was incompetent or maybe just maybe the weaknesses of bong sao are well understood and the methods for dealing with them are part of the basic training of the system. Maybe there are 2 sections of the first form that deal with the situation. Maybe a couple sections on the second form deal with the situation. Not to mention the third form or dummy answers.
Naw, couldnt be. Thank goodness for JKders and all others for showing us how foolish we are to use a bong sao.

[yuanfen]

Hunt 1-funny and correct.

The issue is how do you develop and doa bong sao and how and when to use it. All kinds of folks visually see a bong sao and are ready to pontificate and/or modify.
Untrained bong saos are present in many martial arts and sports- what wing chun masters did was to analyze/perfect/absorb a
naturalistic motion into the art. It's all in the details.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Old Jong:

It is useless (and dangerous) to try and trap someone's arms WHILE FACING THEM SQUARE ON...

But if you have gained their flank (or blindside)...

Then it's only dangerous for them.
Ultimatewingchun!
A question!....Would you let somebody get your "blindside"? ...Me neither!...;)

For those interrested; There is a lot to learn in Chum Kiu and Biu Gee: Gain and keep the line in the first case and regain it if lost in the second case.Well digested and trained ,these principles will work all around and not only in "square on" position witch is SLT level really. (I know!...I was stucked there long enough!...;) )

[fa_jing]

"or maybe just maybe the weaknesses of bong sao are well understood and the methods for dealing with them are part of the basic training of the system."

Agreed! Like I said, during one of my first lessons my instructor showed me how to flip the bon sao and how to counter the same.

But since it's basic, can someone please go over the principles? I'm not understanding everyone so far, it's too general and not specific enough.

First off, I don't think it's wise to let the opponent have both your elbow and your forearm as sc_guy was saying....

I understood the one about changing to jut sao - this is a downward palm strike - also changine to gan sao - low outward wiping block


But in the specific situation sc_guy is describing (a respected Shuai-Chiao sifu) he is in a right front stance and throws a straight lead punch, you are in a right stance and bon sao his punch. His left hand was coming a split second behind the right and grabs/lifts your elbow as his punch changes into a downward grab and control on your forearm. At this point sc_guy is probably into his stealing step and spinning you around into a trip or knee-barring you.

I'm hoping other posters chime in, but the best answer I can give sc_guy is that the single-hand Dan Chi Sao drill he is describing is always performed with the parallel hand - meaning my left hand vs. your right hand. If I am left lead forward and you are right lead forward when I use bon sao, I move to your outer gate and it is not easy for you to use the other hand to attack my Bon Sao.

[yuanfen]

Some bracketed notes on fajing's post:

First off, I don't think it's wise to let the opponent have both your elbow and your forearm as sc_guy was saying....

((You dont deliberately let someone have your bridge and elbow- but if perchance someone has both and is foolish enough to remain- the game can be dramatically changed bya competent wing chun person- by changing the relationships at the points of contact. I have seen competent wing chun folks ending up driving their opponents intoa wall after it appears that their bong sao is grabbed.))

I understood the one about changing to jut sao - this is a downward palm strike - also changine to gan sao - low outward wiping block

((Not just jut--- wc has too many weapons---even different bongs---high, medium, low and can change from one to the other---change to fak, biu, kuen---)))


But in the specific situation sc_guy is describing (a respected Shuai-Chiao sifu) he is in a right front stance and throws a straight lead punch, you are in a right stance and bon sao his punch.

((Yikes- you dont form a bong sao and then block-that's a dead bong sao.))

His left hand was coming a split second behind the right and grabs/lifts your elbow as his punch changes into a downward grab and control on your forearm.

((Depending on details a wc person has options. There is no unstoppable move as far as good wc principles are concerned. Lots of possibilities---timing is an important key. That is why good chi sao is important--timing, timing, timing- not technique.
Depending on relative locations of joints and timing---many possibilities can emerge witha flowing wing chun mind--the other person's groin could be open, you could use kau, use the other hand for one of the palm strikes while he is pre occupied with your bong.))

At this point sc_guy is probably into his stealing step and spinning you around into a trip or knee-barring you.

((Spinning- if you become competent with chor ma-you can use that spin))

I'm hoping other posters chime in, but the best answer I can give sc_guy is that the single-hand Dan Chi Sao drill he is describing is always performed with the parallel hand - meaning my left hand vs. your right hand. If I am left lead forward and you are right lead forward when I use bon sao, I move to your outer gate and it is not easy for you to use the other hand to attack my Bon Sao.

((So many chi sao drills and variations. Bong sao works aginst the opposite arm as well. Think of jong motions- you can bong from outside or inside if you know your wing chun timing))

[canglong]

fa_jing,
With wing chun as with all things there are principles at work that constitute law and when the law is broken there are consequences that come to bear. In your initial statement you said an opponent might grab at your bong sau to flip it
the opponent to be grabbed and/or flipped. then you went on to state that your instructor showed you the counter to this but what you didn't state was whether or not he (your instructor) grabbed you to perform the counter manuever or required that you grab at him to flip his bong sau. So the question now is has your instructor ever taught you to grab which implies hold on to an opponent with your hands to perform a specific application/technique and if so why and if not why not. When you understand the principles of grab/hold or counter to grab/hold I believe you will in fact be able to answer your own question and not because you can relate to what others have experienced but because of the shared experience between you and your sifu. Continue your training and good health to you always.

[old jong]

What is your point sc_guy?...
You don't seem to fully understand what is Bong Sau and his many uses.
It is not a simple "I raise my stupid elbow to stop a punch" block!...It is a motion serving as a door opener through an opponent defensive/offensive line.Well done,it is very dynamic and will not allow for playing with it in any ways. Of course anybody could do what he wants to a beginner without understanding of the motion or somebody who was wrongly taught!...

Originally posted by sc_guy .

It's much more fun to talk about the real life sitruation then debating whether you can knock anybody down by Chi without touching him. [/B]

You bring the subject!...:rolleyes:

[yuanfen]

S_c guy- You are creating your own complex scenario-if this-then that...
wing chun is different from many other arts- no playing checkers in wing chun. Strange as it may seem- good wing chun does not expose the elbow in bong sao- the elbow controls the line- and if
a mistake is made- there is a whole education in biu gee on how to recover the line....and explode.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Old Jong:

The fact that so-and-so would prefer that I don't reach his blindside...shouldn't deter me from training the multitude of TWC methods, situations, and techniques that can be utilized to GET TO THE BLINDSIDE...

whether he likes it or not.

A football team might prefer that the opposing team DON'T run the football around the left side or the right side...they might prefer that the opposition only run straight up the middle...

BUT THAT'S TOO BAD...isn't it ?? !!

[Shadowboxer]

The answers are in CK and BJ. My opponent presses down on the elbow and I sink the bridge into tan da. My opponent pushes the elbow toward me, I sink the bridge and tan da or flow into lan sao/da. My opponent pulls my bong sao with 2 hands toward him, I respond with pressing gum sao and bok jarn(shoulder strike). We train these bong "attacks" in lop sao drill. Pressing up on the elbow and wrist initiates a pressing gum sao-timing is the key or a BJ response right out of the form.

Also, in dan chi sao a straight punch to the face causes me to punch to the face and arrive first. I wouldn't use a bong. I palm strike, they jum and punch to the face I counter-attack with oi moon choi to the face.

There's also ding jarn, the attacking bong, "driving their opponents into a wall after it appears that their bong sao is grabbed"...as Yuanfen and others have said there are many weapons.

[yuanfen]

Bracketed comments on sc_guy post:

What do you mean "no playing checkers in wing chun"? Why wing chun is different from other arts? Is MA just like chess game, you make one move and then I response with one move if we both has the same speed?

((Wing chun is neither checkers nor chess. It has some parallels to some chess strategies with respect to control of lines to the center- but chess involves a fixed board and fixed moves for pieces. In WC sometimes a pawn can move like a knight.))


A punch could be just a "bait".

((wung chun minimzes faking and can ignore fakes as well. It does not matter whther you are baiting. Depending on my "read"-
I will attack and you(generic you-not personal) are likely to be one move
behind . Wing chun has the structure and dynamics to do that- if someone has learned some decent wing chun-principles and practice))

It does not have to be a committed punch. That means one does not really care if that punch can make any contact. It's just a "knock on the door" and wait for your opponent to response. It's very common in any style of MA.

(See above- again,an example of where wing chun is different))

Unless you don't block it. As long as you block and make any arm contact then he would just trying to grab that elbow.

((Wing chun sensitivity when learned- I use your (generic you)-
your touch...))

Why this scenario is complex? There are basic training drill just for this scenario and this is the most basic "entering" method.

((Wing chun training isdifferent from other arts- and (for me) there
is no one entry method-you(generic) will show me how to enter.))

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Old Jong:

The fact that so-and-so would prefer that I don't reach his blindside...shouldn't deter me from training the multitude of TWC methods, situations, and techniques that can be utilized to GET TO THE BLINDSIDE...

whether he likes it or not.

A football team might prefer that the opposing team DON'T run the football around the left side or the right side...they might prefer that the opposition only run straight up the middle...

BUT THAT'S TOO BAD...isn't it ?? !!

You mention your lineage as "the" experts in taking the "blindside"?...O.K. I have no reason not to believe you.
I could mention my own lineage as "the" experts in defending from any angles!...You don't have to believe me. Let's not turn this thread or forum into another VTTA.
I know you understand what I mean.

[yuanfen]

s_c guy's post snips and my comments;

Too abstract. Like to hear more concret solution.
((ATTACK!))


It's unfair to discuss solution and assume one are 3 times faster than the other.

((In good wing chun-position is much more important))

The real life just doesn't work this way. The Bagua "circle walking" drill, the Taiji "double pulling hands", and the XingYi "Pi - splliting" are all designed for "side door entering". In western boxing, moving into opponent's side door is a very important strategy. If you rotate with him then that will give him a chance to "enter your front door". The Baoding SC "tearing" is mainly design for this.

((Irrespective of the other person's style-it's hard to flank a good wing chun person))

I had several years cross training in Wing Chun and not a total outsider at all.

((So?))

[Ultimatewingchun]

Old Jong:

Look...Taking the blindside is not always possible...sometimes you have no choice but to fight in the middle...But the point is, that once you do manage to outflank your opponent...trapping both his arms with one one of yours BECOMES POSSIBLE -

So he is now set up to take a clean shot from your other hand.

And the footwork and related strategies and techniques employed in TWC does allow for getting to the blindside OFTEN...

perhaps much more often then you suspect...

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by yuanfen
>>You are creating your own complex scenario-if this-then that... wing chun is different from many other arts- no playing checkers in wing chun.<<

Like any form of WC is chess-like in terms of it's use strategy. Of course I don't mean literally like playing on a board. I speak from personal experience as a former combat Marine who took part in many missions where strategey was used. The term chess game was used often. I'm not really sure but was chess originally a war game?

[Phil Redmond]

>>"CMA always said, "Chen Tsou - drop elbow" or "Chuan Bo Lou Tsou - don't expose your elbow".<<

So you are familiar with all the 100s of CMAs. Lets' see White Crane uses a bong sau as does Wing Chun. Hung Ga raises it's elbow in a few forms like in Fu Hok Seung Ying. Are they not CMA? You can't use that maxim to cover all CMAs.

[hunt1]

sc_guy. You are right there are far to many demonstrations done that would never work in the real world.
Yuanfen has made some good points. Try looking at things from his pov.
If you have trained in WC then yo need to find a new teacher because the answers to your questions should be found in the very early studies.
You seem to be describing a Lop sau (pulling the arm). WC deals with this early on. Also you seem to describe a basic Lop the Lop situation.
Th lop or pulling the arm you describe done correctly has nothing to do with strength and everything to do with the lower body, hips and waist. Basic level stuff which is why I said you should find a new wing chun teacher.
What distance are you thinking of where there is no room for a punch. I have never been in such a distance even when wrestling.
Proper WC power needs no room. One reason WC strives to develope the "zero inch punch" is becuase the art recognizes close quarters and indeed seeks to fight close.
Proper power can be demonstrated with a person holding the arm out perfectly straight palm flat on the striking surface and no elbow pull back of any kind.
WC may not be perfect but it does recognize and provide answers at the basic level to deal with the situations you describe.

[Phil Redmond]

To add to Victor's post you can be on the blindside while inside your opponents arms as well. Blindside is simply staying away from the other hand.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Phil:

Chess was most definitely a war game...

[old jong]

Phil.
If I understand what you mean,it could be the same as when we say; denie him of a clear attacking line?...

[Phil Redmond]

Old Jong, If I'm understanding what you mean :) I'd say yes.

[old jong]

He! He!...Language barriers can be crossed sometimes!...;)
Happy Christmass Phil!:)

[yuanfen]

Chess was one of the war games- it originated in India--- moved on to Persia, Turkey, Russia and then west.
In the process- the 8x8 altenative colored squares remained the same - but the shape and the names of pieces changed.
Hati the elephant became the rook, the siphai-sepoy became the pawn, raja rani became king-queen etc

Some early Indian field formations had the elephants providing strong flanks, the horses changing directions, the foot soldiers
dleiberately advancing in the front and the protected royalty in the back. Controlling the center of the enemy and protecting ones own was important. Hence in the middle game control of
the 4 central squares is often regarded as being important.

New low tech- changed much if that- the faster horses and horse riding skills of the Mongols for instance.

Hannibal used African elephants but the elephants had different behavioral charcteristics and were used differently from Carthage to crossing the Alps.
joy

[fa_jing]

sc_guy is right, we need to give him a concrete answer to his question. Not all of these abstract things that could easily apply to many other arts other than Wing Chun. So I think the answer is if the opponent has contact with your Bon Sao, if you did it correctly the contact point is 2-3 inches away from the base of the hand. If he moves his hand to grab your elbow, you just perform Lop Sao.

The others are right though, you can't just force a Wing Chun practioner to Bon Sao just by punching at him. Furthermore the second hand is often used in conjunction with the high Bon sao to help defend it. In fact I have heard talk of protecting the elbow in Wing Chun, mostly protecting it from being pinned - which is why in our "guard" position (man sao/wu sao) the rear hand protects the front elbow....

So what of dropping the elbow to Lan Sao? Such as is repeated 3 times each arm in the Chum Kil form? What's that for, I'm not sure?

BTW, don't send sc_guy off to find another Wing Chun teacher....I'm sure he's retired from studying new material in depth now, and he has his own art(s) to proliferate. Better yet answer his questions since this is a common sticky point when discussing our art. I've seen it come up in other places, and GM Leung Ting of Wing Tsun mentions restricting the use of the bon sao in his book.

And again I was asking, because I was shown this over 4 years ago by a previous teacher, and I have forgotten what it exactly was we learned!

[hunt1]

fa_jing, Since everything I do flows from the incoming energy I receive I have a very difficult time answering 'what if' questions. Still I believe that if your, general not specific, teacher doesnt provide what I feel is basic information than you should find another teacher. There is very little new under the sun. Wing Chun has been around for 150 years it probably has an answer for everthing another CMA can through against it. The trick is learning the answers.
You are right about dropping the bong into lan . That is indeed one of the methods for dealing with an attack to the bong sau elbow. If you know Bil Jee than you know the use of bil from underneath to clear the attack to the elbow while moving forward. Body must be used in this case. In addition many responses to an attack on the bong elbow will depend on postition and change of angles. A half inch can make a big difference in success or failure. Some wing chun moves front and back some constantly changes angles.
Controlling the bong is easy if you understand its weaknesses which is why the saying' bong never stays'. That is also why every from in wing chun except the pole, although you can extract from that form as well, has specific answers to the arm grab, elbow control, joint lock on the wrist elbow or shoulder problems.

[yuanfen]

Bracketed comments to fajing:

sc_guy is right, we need to give him a concrete answer to his question.

(Which question? When he began a scenario with a fake punch?-,,,
I was quite concrete-I wouldnt wait to find out whther he was faking- I would attack...isnt that concrete enough?-more details?--- the wing chun socalled box is full of attack weapons))

- Not all of these abstract things that could easily apply to many other arts other than Wing Chun. So I think the answer is if the opponent has contact with your Bon Sao, if you did it correctly the contact point is 2-3 inches away from the base of the hand. If he moves his hand to grab your elbow, you just perform Lop Sao.

((Then what? Do you mean lop/da? If the timing is right- a possibility if done right,. If he is moving his hand towards your elbow- you can do so many other things-you can elbow him with one of many wing chun elbows, you can punch him with either hand while even controlling him with the other hand-his move towards your elbow will enhance your punches, Good wing chun punch devlopment does not require much room.
Casual observation of wing chun or dabbling in wing chun-misses much of wing chun.))

[[Censored]]

sc_guy, I appreciate your ability and willingness to talk specifics. IMHO, the safest safe bong sao is the one that attacks the horse through the bridge. I believe that is what Yip Man tried to develop with his Chum Kiu.

[yylee]

just a general question:

how do you support your Bong in order to prevent it from being collasped or crushed by your opponent?

where is(are) the supporting point(s)?

Merry Christmas everyone :p

[S.Teebas]

where is(are) the supporting point(s)?

Every part of the body

[Phil Redmond]

yylee
"how do you support your Bong . . ."
I don't think the word "support" is good for a bong sau. It isn't there long enough to support force. It simply parries a force in most instances.

[hunt1]

Movement and energy come from the elbow. No or minimal energy below the elbow. Support comes from the ground.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
yylee
"how do you support your Bong . . ."
I don't think the word "support" is good for a bong sau. It isn't there long enough to support force. It simply parries a force in most instances.

Phil

A few posts ago people talked about "uprooting" the opponent with the Bong, IMHO without some support there is no way to uproot others...

[Phil Redmond]

yylee,
What I meant was that the bong sau shouldn't support any weight. Of course every movement has to have some sort of structure.

[yuanfen]

yylee- you can do lots of things witha good bong-up rooting them,
breaking their elbow and other nice things. What do you mean by support. The energy path and the joint connections can go allthe way to the ground. A good bong- like a good tan or a fok are connected to the whole structure trained via ygkym.

[yylee]

Originally posted by yuanfen
yylee- you can do lots of things witha good bong-up rooting them,
breaking their elbow and other nice things. What do you mean by support. The energy path and the joint connections can go allthe way to the ground. A good bong- like a good tan or a fok are connected to the whole structure trained via ygkym.

so when there is a path way to the ground or whatever, there is support.

IMHO if there is no such pathway, the incoming pressure towards the Bong will be taken locally.

questions is: are there specific pathways for the Bong? If one considers Bong to be a weakness, one should find ways to make it work, rather than getting rid of it or modify it in the name of evolution.

[Ultimatewingchun]

yylee:

As regards your remarks that the pressure applied by the bong sao will be taken locally...

It is posssible to uproot and unbalance the opponent with bong sao if you are angled toward his center and driving forward.

[old jong]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun


It is posssible to uproot and unbalance the opponent with bong sao if you are angled toward his center and driving forward.

Yes!...This is what I,Joy and a few others are saying from the beginning of this thread!
You take their balance,center and put the grabber on the defensive. Very hard to perform anything without proper balance first.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
yylee:

It is posssible to uproot and unbalance the opponent with bong sao if you are angled toward his center and driving forward.

ultimatewingchun

true, but how easy would it be to uproot someone, say, 50 lbs heavier then you? If the Bong does not have some structural support, it will be fairly difficult.

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
yylee,
What I meant was that the bong sau shouldn't support any weight. Of course every movement has to have some sort of structure.

Phil, IMHO, the "weight" is something that you feel from others while doing the Bong. With support to the Bong this "weight" can be manipulated more easily, the weight doesn't bother your structure (so is there any weight being felt?). I feel that Bong should be able to support weight even for a split second, enough to provide leverage to uproot or penetrate.

[old jong]

...And...when the other guy "retrieves gracefully", we use that again ,and he uses it ,and we redirect and he pulls and we push and he.....You get the idea?...:rolleyes:
That's a great Xmass "round and round" thread!...;)

BTW....Crosstrain in Wing Chun?...:rolleyes:

[Ultimatewingchun]

By uproot I mean unbalance...as in driving them backwards...as in putting them on their heels...as in making it very difficult to launch an attack of their own - because they are now doing all they can not to be thrown into a wall or pummelled with punches...after you turn your forward driving bong into lop da, or lop/pak da...or whatever.

And if you attack their center of gravity in this manner at the correct angle...even a man 50 lbs. heavier than you can find him- self in trouble.

[old jong]

I agree!...We should do the same to the guy in your other thread!...;) ;) ;)

[yylee]

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
By uproot I mean unbalance...as in driving them backwards...as in putting them on their heels...as in making it very difficult to launch an attack of their own - because they are now doing all they can not to be thrown into a wall or pummelled with punches...after you turn your forward driving bong into lop da, or lop/pak da...or whatever.

And if you attack their center of gravity in this manner at the correct angle...even a man 50 lbs. heavier than you can find him- self in trouble.

sounds like you have it too easily,LOL! The other person, regardless of size, can use a good Jutt Sau or Fuk Sau to break the Bong structure at the elow or shoulder joint. Sure uprooting does not mean sending someone 3 feet off the ground, breaking the upper and lower body unity is also a good uproot method. Another curious question: where is the other person's COG? Is it always constant at one spot of the body during a fight/sparring/training? How do you find it through contact? Another general question for everyone.

[yuanfen]

yylee asks:

Another curious question: where is the other person's COG? Is it always constant at one spot of the body during a fight/sparring/training? How do you find it through contact? Another general question for everyone
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

((ting jing- listening energy- lots of good chi sao- you touch and you know.)) joy chaudhuri

[Phil Redmond]

....I feel that Bong should be able to support weight even for a split second, enough to provide leverage to uproot or penetrate.
I guess you and I fight differently. I never argue strength. I'd prefer to let a force go by than to "support" it. Do you fight supporting force?

[yylee]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond

I guess you and I fight differently. I never argue strength. I'd prefer to let a force go by than to "support" it. Do you fight supporting force?

hi Phil, IMHO the firmness of a structure is not the same as strength. Even when we are taught to let force slip by, we still need to maintain the forward force and the structure, that's our "force field".

[yylee]

Originally posted by yuanfen
yylee asks:

Another curious question: where is the other person's COG? Is it always constant at one spot of the body during a fight/sparring/training? How do you find it through contact? Another general question for everyone
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

((ting jing- listening energy- lots of good chi sao- you touch and you know.)) joy chaudhuri
no argument there, professor Joy! (but I bet someone is going to jump out and say this Ting Jing is a TC term! :D)

[yylee]

Originally posted by S.Teebas


Every part of the body
true, that is quite a complex picture to visualize.

[canglong]

I guess you and I fight differently. This is an example of 2 people disagreeing in principle, which was the point I was making in my last post. When 2 people have a complete understanding of the principles at work only then can it be assured that forces at work are working correctly. Saying you use your bong sau like this but I prefer that is equivalent to saying sure you can use a spoon to eat your cereal I just prefer a fork. When we as practictioners fully comprehend the principles behind the scenes directing the true nature of bong sau or any other technique then and only then will we be able to correctly answer this and any other question and we won't each have a different interpretation of bong sau or its use. Who among you knows the true nature of bong sau and how it is applied if you do and you post it this thread will come to an end until then it will continue on into the hereafter about how different variance can equal almost the same results.

Be a principled fighter or suffer the consequences.

[Sandman2[Wing Chun]]

Originally posted by canglong
Who among you knows the true nature of bong sau and how it is applied if you do and you post it this thread will come to an end until then it will continue on into the hereafter about how different variance can equal almost the same results.

Be a principled fighter or suffer the consequences.

Well then, do us all a favor and post the true nature of bong sau on here so this conversation can come to a close.

[PaulH]

"A design hastily shadowed out, by means of colored crayons, on tinted paper, or perhaps scratched rudely in pen and ink... the more interesting on that account, because it seems as if the artist had bestirred himself to catch the first glimpse of an image that did but reveal itself and vanish...First thoughts have an aroma and fragrance in them, that they do not lose in three hundred years. - Nathaniel Hawthorne on the French and Italian notebooks"

[yuanfen]

Weakness?
Not a bad application of a bong sao here:

http://www.vingshunkuen.de/yip-man-bong-sau-lee.jpg

[Gangsterfist]

Interesting discussion. I can say I have actually used a bon sau in a real fight situation. My opponet threw a high punch towards my face, I bon'd, with my wu sau up and turned it into a lop with a hammer blow. The bon sau should only be there for redirecting the inital strike. It is designed behind skeletal structure and not strength. At least that is how my sifu taught me. The bon sau has real life applications, it just may not be as used as much as a tan sau or pok sau.

[canglong]

Sandman,
It is a rhetorical question. The point being not that sound arguments to what bong sau is and is not haven't been given because they have it is just that the question remains why when a simple question is answered and sound arguments are presented by people professing to train in the same art four pages and counting later there is still some question as well as more along with the original confusion as to what the correct answer is. Understanding the principle behind the concept and experience are elements for which there are no shortcuts or substitutes for learning. Wing Chun isn't just about knowing self it is also about knowing yourself. Redmond sifu raises a good point in another thread if you can't get the answers to technical questions directly from your sifu you most likely won't be getting them at all. This is not ment to deminish the functionality of this forum merely a simple reminder pointing to the bigger picture.

[anerlich]

Redmond sifu raises a good point in another thread if you can't get the answers to technical questions directly from your sifu you most likely won't be getting them at all.

Some seem to think that there is an archetypal bon sao hich is perfect absolute and inviolate, rather than relative and specific. And that WC (of one strain or another) is like a set of stone tables, be they techniques concepts principles or whatever, that need to, or can, be handed down like sutras or commandments.

It's great to have a Sifu with a good level of understanding, I have such a Sifu, but ultimately one's understanding of WC is IMO heuristic, not absolute, as it is for everyone else, including the aforementioned Sifu's.

And didn't a recentrly published WC book propose that true understanding must be experienced, it cannot be discussed or read about?

I dispute the notion that there is only one way to do everything. Even (real) scientists have disagreements about fundamentals. And what a boring, totalitarian, deterministic place the world would be otherwise.

[canglong]

I dispute the notion that there is only one way to do everything. Go right ahead then, the real point is does their exist a good better best way of doing things. You can catch a fish using a pole and bait or you can use your hands I just happen to think the person with a pole and some bait will have a full belly by the time you catch one with you hands.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Tony,


Originally posted by canglong
Go right ahead then, the real point is does their exist a good better best way of doing things. You can catch a fish using a pole and bait or you can use your hands I just happen to think the person with a pole and some bait will have a full belly by the time you catch one with you hands.

What if the other person is also using a pole, only a slightly different pole? Or slightly different bait? On a slightly different time of day? Not so clear cut which one is better anymore, is it?

Regards,
Alan

[canglong]

lol, Alan it clears up when the flavor of fish enters the gates. Don't let others confuse or distort your understanding of the sun with that of the moon, what is the point in making life harder than it has to be.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Tony,


Originally posted by canglong
lol, Alan it clears up when the flavor of fish enters the gates. Don't let others confuse or distort your understanding of the sun with that of the moon, what is the point in making life harder than it has to be.

And if the tastes in fish also differ, how clear is it then? Can everything in the world be broken down to black and white, or are there shades of gray, even other colors, in between? Which color is "better"? What is the criteria?

If there is danger in over complicating things, is there not danger in over simplification? Who, do you think, is doing which? ;)

Regards,
Alan

[canglong]

Hello Alan,

And if... aaaah yes my daddy use to tell me when I was young and IF a buzzard had a guitar on his @ss there would be music in the air. Do you practice wing chun hoping that it will work or because you know it will work therefore you practice wing chun. What is it that we are talking about his wing chun her wing chun their wing chun this wing chun that wing chun or the principles and concepts that govern hand to hand combat which make up wing chun. I believe it to be the latter which do not change they are governed by the laws of nature or physics and human physiology none of which are likely to change in our life time.

Be a person of principle or suffer the consequences.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Tony,


Do you practice wing chun hoping that it will work...

I think we all do, whether we will admit it to ourselves or not


...or because you know it will work therefore you practice wing chun.

Someone who knows their wing chun will work for sure is either MUCH more wise than myself or MUCH less wise. I'm content that I'm neither too wise nor un-wise.


What is it that we are talking about...

To clarify, we are talking about the different ways people use the bong sau. The differences stem from the fact that different people and schools have from slightly different to very different uses of the bong sau. It is a little silly to say which is the best. What is the reference? What is the the best way to bake a cake? Are you an Italian Chef or a Chinese Chef?


Be a person of principle or suffer the consequences.

Oh believe me, I'm suffering...

Regards,
Alan

[canglong]

To clarify, we are talking about the different ways people use the bong sau. The differences stem from the fact that different people and schools have from slightly different to very different uses of the bong sau. This is better known as understanding as when people differ in application they more than likely differ in their awareness or understanding of the principles or concepts but when people of varying lineages or styles apply a principle or concept the exact same way then it is widely accepted as truth or complete awareness of understanding. The differences you speak of are an attempt to get at the truth that have yet to be reached or understood by those applying said variances.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Tony,


The differences you speak of are an attempt to get at the truth that have yet to be reached or understood by those applying said variances.

...or that one is a Chinese baker and the other is an Italian one...

Anyways, thanks for the conversation,

Regards,
Alan

[canglong]

but in order to get a cake they both bake and not broil then they understand the truth about making a cake.

Yes thanks Alan enjoy your training.

[anerlich]

Go right ahead then

Thank you! I will!


the real point is does their exist a good better best way of doing things.

For a specific set of circumstances at a specific time, perhaps. But every one of these is different, as is the particular good better best response.

Science? Relativity shows the nonexistence of absolutes. Quantum mechanics that reality is probabilistic rather than deterministic. Chaos theory that even the simplest set of variables can produce infinite complexity.

Postmodernism (not science, I know!) highlighted the foolishness of totalizing narratives and metanarratives, grand theoretical structures, formulas and the like.


You can catch a fish using a pole and bait or you can use your hands I just happen to think the person with a pole and some bait will have a full belly by the time you catch one with you hands.

Bad analogy. I wouldn't use a game boat and rods to catch trout in a shallow stream. Commercial fishermen use nets and drag lines for different fish, and they'd probably use TNT if it were legal. Hunter S Thompson contended in "The Great Shark Hunt" that the best tool for shark fishing was a machine gun. Fishing with your hands might be inefficient, but I'm mighty impressed with the guy that can do it. Especially if I don't have a pole and bait.

"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Be a person of principle or suffer the consequences.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh believe me, I'm suffering..."


LOL!

[canglong]

Thank you! I will! Naturally you are quite welcome!
For a specific set of circumstances at a specific time, perhaps. Could you be a little more vague someone might almost understand the point you are trying to make.
Bad analogy. Sure it's now yours.
I wouldn't use a game boat and rods to catch trout in a shallow stream. It's always all about you, that right Andrew.

Everyone can have an opinion about the best way to fly an airplain but rarely do we witness people moving the captain out of the way to express those opinions at 30,000 feet. If the terms most efficeint and economy of motion are to be associated with wing chun they can't possibly be followed by the words or terms such as sometimes and maybe or usually and in certain instances...

[anerlich]

.
Could you be a little more vague someone might almost understand the point you are trying to make.

I think the point I made was pretty obvious, and I wasn't the only one making it.

:
If the terms most efficeint and economy of motion are to be associated with wing chun they can't possibly be followed by the words or terms such as sometimes and maybe or usually and in certain instances...

I disagree, why can't economy and efficiency be situation-specific? How can they be otherwise? BTW in your sentence above, you DID follow "wing chun" with "sometimes and maybe or usually and in certain instances" so you appear to have refuted your own argument. Cheap shot I know, but it wasn't me that left the opening.


It's always all about you, that right Andrew.

Well no, and it's not about fishing or flying in an aeroplane at 30,000 feet or heart surgery or property investment or the rules of tiddlywinks either. It's about bon saos in WC. And if someone says there's only one way to do it and everyone else is wrong, then that I'm going to put a banana skin in front of him or her every time.

And so with that in mind I'd say it's more about *YOU*, Tony.


You're starting to attack the person rather than the argument. A flaw in rhetoric known as ad hominem, I'm happy to post an explanatory link if you wish. I know I do it too, but then I embrace contradictions and diversity as a practitioner of "Popular Wing Chun".

Oops, sorry, that WAS about me :eek:

[yuanfen]

One of the confusions in different parts of this thread seems to come from not making distinctions between learning and developing the bong sao-s in the forms and actually applying them. The relationships between the principles and the applications are 0ne-many rather than one-one.
Treating dvelopment and application as one-one is a source of dogmatism. Lots of very good applied bong saos wont look like bong sao to the untrained eye.

[canglong]

I think the point I made
I disagree,
I'm going to
I know
I'd say
I know
I do it
I embrace
Oops, sorry, that WAS about me
no need to aplologize when you say what you mean and mean what you say...
'nough said.

[anerlich]

Yuanfen:

I think you are probably right (sorry, should have said something like "an opinion exists which is similar to yours" since the use of the pronoun "I" or expressing personal opinions seems to be some sort of thought crime in the eyes of some, although it seems to be perfectly OK under forum rules. Aaaagh, those fundamentalists ). :rolleyes:

One small aspect of it from a POV that exists: Bon sao can be used defend against punches to the head or kicks to the torso (among other targets). Use the exact same shape in both situations, you will either get punched in the head or kicked in the guts. There are strong similarities between the two successful deployments of bon in this situation, but also some differences.

[John Weiland]

Originally posted by anerlich
Aaaagh, those fundamentalists ). :rolleyes: Agreed, leftist PC thought rules the forum. Happy 1984 plus 20. :p


Bon sao can be used defend against punches to the head or kicks to the torso (among other targets). Use the exact same shape in both situations, you will either get punched in the head or kicked in the guts. There are strong similarities between the two successful deployments of bon in this situation, but also some differences.
:p One may suppose this is what makes the difference between technique-driven training and concept-driven training. A resonable person might conclude, the wide variation in teaching of Wing Chun shows that the training methods are not consistent. Such a person might also suggest that the technique-driven training methodology is not Wing Chun at all. Of course, no one is saying this...certainly not this writer. :rolleyes:

[anerlich]

"What's the purpose of blocking a kick?"

To redirect the blow so that it doesn't hit you, or to knock the guy off balance, relatively easy since he is on one leg.

"One can step back to avoid a kick. "

And gain what? you end up with no relative advantage. Step to the side you can get an angle on him, strike/block his leg, say with a bon sao, while you are doing so and you can upset his structure and achieve controlling contact as well. If your only kick defence is stepping back and you haven't ever been kicked, you need to find some more skilled training partners.

"The only purpose to block a kick is to catch that leg so you can take him down. "

No, you can also knock him off balance, and while you can take him down you can also hit or kick him while he's tottering around trying to regain his balance and structure.

"To move in after the kick then you need to "hook his leg" and "pull his leg" so you can borrow his resistence to move in with speed. "Bon Sao" involve no "hooking" motion and can not achieve that either."

You do not need to hook or pull his leg to knock him off balance with a bon sao while he is kicking.

"Not sure I understand the difference between technique-driven training and concept-driven training."

Sorry to hear that. It's not my responsibility to help you.

[Phil Redmond]

A while back some one posted a link to a clip with a kickboxer effectivley using a "kwan sau like" block against a round kick. A kwan as you should know is a bong tan combo. A kwan is very good against an upper gate kick to the head. Here is a controlled example of it.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/tech.asp

[anerlich]

"Not saying "Bon Sao" cannot block a kick."

So WTF was your point?

" Just said "Bon Sao" is not proper to "catch" a kick". Blocking a kick is different from catching a kick."

No kidding. You were the one getting up on his hind legs about catching the kick, not me. Who are you arguing with? Yourself?

"When you block his kick, all he needs is to put his body weight on his kicking leg then his kicking leg will slide down and be free again."

He can't put his body weight on the leg while it's up in the air. While the guy Phil mentioned used a Kwan variation to stop that roundhouse kick, bon only really works IMO against a straight kick. Step to the outside of the front or side kick, and use the bon to knock his COG off from over the top of his support foot. He's now off balance with one foot in the air, at best (for him) will land on his kicking foot off balance, at an angle to you, and with poor structure, at worst will fall on his a$$.

" In order to be able to catch that kicking leg when he puts weight on, one needs to have a "hooking" type block to do the "catching" job. The "reverse Fu Sao" could do this job better."

That's a possibility, though if a "reverse fu sao" is what I think it is, it will only work against a fairly high section kick rather than a midsection kick. However, you might notice this thread is about bon sao, not catching kicks. And I never raised the subject of catching kicks, so who are you arguing with?

[fa_jing]

sc_guy - When you Bon Sao his kick you can silmultaneously kick out his supporting leg. Or, you can "scoop" him off balance a bit and change the Bon Sao to a whipping punch or backfist. If you have a chance, look at the technique at 4 minutes 5 seconds into this clip: http://users.1st.net/abaddon/kfo/sparring.wmv

Wing Chun does have the kick-catching motion that you described, and it works vs. a round kick - pak sao + gan sao. The pak sao hits the knee and the gan sao lifts the shin of the kicking leg. Then gan sao then changes to Tan sao, fitting the shin of the kicking leg into the crook of your arm. From here you apply your favorite takedown.

However, I don't think either block will work vs. a downward cutting Thai kick to the thigh or knee. For this we need to use a leg block or footwork.

[Phil Redmond]

fa_jing,
How do you post movie clips on the forum? I'm not computer savvy so I have no clue. I have some I'd like to put up here.

[fa_jing]

Hi Phil --- Somebody offered to host them for me, that has access to a web server and a directory on that server accessable by the public. What I did was just FTP the files to him, and he was able to upload them from his PC to the server.

[yuanfen]

s-c:genrous of you to help with putting up things per your response to Phil.
Going back to friendly but serious comment on bong sao and kicks. My POV is likely to be different from Phil's and yours.
Civil disagreement is nevera problem for me.

On one common context- when someone is kicking to the head.

For demos I can demonstrate kwan sao, kwan sao and throw,
kwan sao and grab or many other choices. For visual effects.
Actual wing chun response should be earlier than that. Not a matter of speed but one of listening/sensing/early warning system. Actually despite many nay saysers- good chi sao teaches
and devlops that sense.

But if I am alert and have not been staying on the forum too long
or too much new year's eve celebration- I would attack as soon as soon as I sense a move- specially one in the feet/legs of the other person.
How I will attack-well the force will be with me.

In some situations-
he(she) who hesitates is lost- is one of the lost kuen kuits- or maybe Mrs, Murphy )or whoever) wasa wingchunner in disguise.
Hseitation is wise if you face a unicorn... one of the good Murphy-ism- never leapfrog an unicorn- good advice for flying kickers too.

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Joy,
If your timing is off, and that's a possibilty for all of us, it's good to have a back up since we're humans and not perfect. I'm going to take up sc-guys offer and make a clip with some one throwing real round kicks at me. Of course I'll know they are coming since it'll be in a controlled environment, but the kicks will be hard and fast.

[yuanfen]

Sure Phil- IMO wing chun does not put all its eggs in one basket.
I hope that what you put up is available on quick time.

[Keng Geng]

I haven't read this thread thoroughly, but it seems the issue at this point is about blocking kicks. I hope I'm not reading that people are assenting to the use of bong sau and kwan sau movements and the like for blocking kicks.

There are few arm motions/techniques that can be used against kicks, with bong sau one is asking for a shattering.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
A kwan is very good against an upper gate kick to the head. Here is a controlled example of it.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/tech.asp
Sorry Phil, but if that guy really wanted to hurt someone with that roundhouse, that kwan would not stand a chance.

[Phil Redmond]

Don't be sorry dude. It's amazing how you can make such a statment on something you've never been a witness to. I've used that kwan many times in full contact matches. I like it, I use it, it works, and I teach it. You may have your own preferences. That's all good.
BTW, are you a fighter? How often do you throw down with or without protective gear? Also, you've made some disrespectful remarks about other Sifus here. Who is your Sifu?

[Phil Redmond]

Please sendyour email addy to; sifu@wingchunkwoon.com
I have a clip using the bong sau read

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
It's amazing how you can make such a statment on something you've never been a witness to. I believe you posted the link on this thread for all including myself to witness. And I witnessed it.

Phil, the truth hurts sometimes. No need to get defensive. That is not the way of a warrior.

[Brithlor]

Any chance you could also upload some video of you and/or your students sparring, Phil Redmond?

[Brithlor]

"Why the "round kick" should never be used? All you need is to:

- block his round kick (turn you shin to him if below the knee).
- hold on his kicking leg.
- use "steeling" step to close the distance.
- block his striking hand if any.
- "hook" his standing leg off the groung.
- Push his neck so the back of his head will be "smashed" on the ground.
- When he is falling backward, drop your knee into his groan area with all your body weight.

Not a pleasent picture, Isn't it?"



Isn't that making roundhouse kicks a "bit" (actually A LOT) easier to deal with than they actually are? I mean, you could say the same thing to ANY attack...

Roundhouse kicks still seems to have their uses when done correctly... although my roundhouse kick is really terrible so I mainly do straight and side kicks ;).

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Brithlor
Roundhouse kicks still seems to have their uses when done correctly... although my roundhouse kick is really terrible so I mainly do straight and side kicks Roundhouse is simply a combination of front and side kick. And like you said, done correctly with this in mind, it is hard to capture.

[Gangsterfist]

correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't using a bon sau against a kick be wrong? Or are you guys refering to a di bon sao? I think one would want to use a di bon ton sao to block a round kick, or a qwan sao. If someone could post a pic of a bon sao blocking a round kick I would like to see it. Also could you explain how the skeletal structure would maitain blocking a kick with a bon sao?

This is of course assuming the round kick is a high one aimed towards your torso.