Chen taiji/ yang taiji statement

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

Someone said the other day- ''Yang taiji is for those who cant do chen taiji.''

what are your opinions to this?

In some ways yes-
1. Yang Lu chan did simplify his chen taiji knowledge for the royal family in Beijing because of its stomping, jumping, low stances, ect. He changed it into a more softer and continual form with the change in tempo and fajing.



some ways no-

1. availability- yang taiji is more established and is more well known, while there are few and far between chen style masters teaching. some taiji people can only find a yang teacher and are happy with that.

[taijiquan_student]

That's a dumba.ss statement. But then again, I do Yang taiji. ;)

But really, that's pretty silly.

[Syd]

Strongly disagree. The fact that Yang was called Wu Di was not because Yangs art was less effective than Chen or any other art, but rather because it was supreme. Perhaps it could be argued that this had more to do with the man than the art, but I think Yang Style is not the art in combat that many see in form practice; therein lies the difference between this and Chen. You cannot feel significant Qi flow when doing fast movements and forms, this is why Yang Style is slow and flowing and not because it is weak and ineffective.

'Soft as water externally, hard as an iron bar internally"

This is the nature of Yangs Style...

[QuaiJohnCain]

Personally I tend to agree with this. I have noticed that lately, the Yangers are busy quibbling over lineage and energetics, and not doing much fighting. It all comes down to effectiveness in reality, and I have yet to see a Yanger beat a Chen stylist in a fight, at least in my town.

[backbreaker]

How close is your teacher in lineage to the supreme Yang family members?

How close in lineage is your teacher to the supreme chen family members?


How good is your teachers skill?


How hard do you train and how good is your skill?


I have done chen stlye and yang style and I like them both . My chen teacher said he has a chen style student who is 70 years old and goes into a low stace as low as the floor. I have heard that the spiral energy is more obvious to the beginner when they start out in chen style. I like both styles and both improve health and cultivate qi. Personally , I learn chen in hopes of acheiving one day " high level skill" , but I used to do yang style and that was also my goal, so again it probably has more to do with you yourself and your instructor's skill. Alot of Yang style doesn't have alot of fajin , but some do. I haven't seen a Yang style "cannon fist form" though . Does anyone know a Yang style with cannon fist moves? Maybe it's integrated as one form . I don't know really , they're both good , and really they're the same thing. The chen style seems to have more standard bearers and higher standards for proficiency. It also seems to be less polluted by popularity as most taiji charlatans will most likely rip-off yang style

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Syd
[B]Strongly disagree. The fact that Yang was called Wu Di was not because Yangs art was less effective than Chen or any other art, but rather because it was supreme.
"WAS" is the key word here. As things are being practiced today, Yang is not faring well. Can anyone tell me about a Yang school that does full contact free sparring, and regularly faces up to other styles?


Perhaps it could be argued that this had more to do with the man than the art,
Bingo!


You cannot feel significant Qi flow when doing fast movements and forms,

That's absurd. It's smooth flow that allows Chen to go from slow to fast in an instant.

[backbreaker]

Perhaps , it's the very slow movements and single postures that build up energy , and then spiral movements which circulate the energy.

[taijiquan_student]

"Can anyone tell me about a Yang school that does full contact free sparring, and regularly faces up to other styles?"

Yes--my school, the Great River Taoist Center. My teacher is Scott Rodell, and he's never done any Chen style, only Yang, and he can fight. We practice full-contact sanshou (not the sport sanshou, just as in "free hands"). A 2-year Krav Maga student just came to our sanshou class. He did not fare too well (especially against the older students).

This whole Yang vs. Chen thing is stupid. Just train.

[Syd]

JohnCain,

I won't be drawn on the one thing vs another thing diatribe. If your calling Yang Style into question based on this argument then good luck to you. We will have to agree to disagree... whats new?

Can anyone tell me about a Yang school that does full contact free sparring, and regularly faces up to other styles?

I think various people are involved in Taijiquan for varying reasons. Most who want Taiji for self defence are smart enough to avoid fighting; that doesn't mean they couldn't effectively defend themselves. Some Yangers I know spar and some don't; most Yangers I know don't full conact spar because most of the movements (Yep here we go...) would do pretty serious harm to the opponent such as arm breaks, knee breaks, shots to the corotid sinus etc. I personally train and spar with a couple of guys in my system but we don't go all out for the above reasons. If you can show me video footage of full contact Taijiquan using the applications with people surviving hospitalisation I'd love to see it.

Njoy...

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Syd
JohnCain,
don't full conact spar because most of the movements (Yep here we go...) would do pretty serious harm to the opponent such as arm breaks, knee breaks, shots to the corotid sinus etc. I personally train and spar with a couple of guys in my system but we don't go all out for the above reasons.
I heard a guy say almost the exact same thing right before a MMA/BJJ guy handed his butt back to him.

If you can show me video footage of full contact Taijiquan using the applications with people surviving hospitalisation I'd love to see it.
I'll ask my teacher if I can do just that after the holidays...

[Syd]

I heard a guy say almost the exact same thing right before a MMA/BJJ guy handed his butt back to him.

Ahhh ok, your one of those guys... yeah, don't bother. If you want to take on any of Erle's senior students your quite welcome, I doubt they'd be interested though. Thats the difference between yourself and others...

Bye, bye...

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Syd

Ahhh ok, your one of those guys... ...

If we were face to face you would se that I'm coming from a friendly spot here... Perhaps I should have put more effort into making my post sound nicer. **** internet. No microexpresions or body laguage to go with the words.

I am not one of "those guys", Syd. I'm a IMA purist, but I will never disregard other systems that can get things done. The fact of the matter is that the MMA/BJJ crowd is mopping the floor with most TMA/CMA fighters. They have, and give proof of thier prowess quite regularly in tourneys and videotaped challenges. But unfortunately nobody in the TMA/CMA community have presented anything publicly that shows that they can handle groundfighters. Except excuses.

That said, I am personally nowhere near being in good fighting condition, but that certainly does not disqualify me from pointing out those who are.

[Syd]

My last word on this; Most of the Taijiquan fighters I know are not interested in ring sports or fighting as sport. I have respect for BJJ and groundfighting and train in various groundfighting and Chin Na methods as a supplement to my own standard application work.

I think a difference may be where perhaps some of the Taiji community is coming from philsophically as opposed to the attitude and philosophy of BJJ. Personally I am not particulalry interested in entering a ring and having it out with other MA's because there are rules within those circumstances that prevent most of the prime techniques and applications ,within my system at least, to be used. Essentially rendering what I do pretty obselete.

Eye jabs, throat shots, temple shots, etc etc etc... are all out the door.

Now this may sound like a cop out but at the end of the day if I wanted to fight tournament style then I would surely become a wrestler or involve myself in other MA's that have a more sport oriented competition based structure. The only reason I have learned Taijiquan Martially is to protect myself if my life depends on it. I have no doubt that I might then be able to employ the techniques I train in without hinderance or the presumption of rules etc.

Again, I respect many different MA's but I think my purpose in Martial Arts isn't the same as perhaps those within other arts like BJJ. My entire raison d'etre is not to prove myself to others but rather to train as best I can and in techniques which are lethal and final and dedicated to ending a fight as quickly as possible. Infact my whole purpose within Taiji is so that I don't have to fight and if I can avoid it and run first? You bet I would do all I could to avoid getting to the point where I have to become a temporary animal to survive.

Sure I might get my arse handed to me but I wouldn't go down without the other guy being disfigured for life... bet on that. Ofcourse I hope it never comes to that but I think most Martial Artists are the kind of people who actually avoid conflict rather than seek it out unless they are interested in combat as a form of competative sport like boxing, wrestling etc etc etc.

Most Taiji people just aren't interested in this kind of thing.

Best, Syd

[backbreaker]

It sounds like a cop out. How can someone crippled for life hand you your arse? Double K.O ? Does "old yang fighting style" have pao chui cannon fist form? I've seen an "old yang" form that has 6 empty hand sections , including xingyi , and bagua sections and doing them all together takes a very long time, I actually didn't learn it though. Just cheng man ching form, push hands , and fajin for taiji, also straight sword.

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by QuaiJohnCain

"WAS" is the key word here. As things are being practiced today, Yang is not faring well. Can anyone tell me about a Yang school that does full contact free sparring, and regularly faces up to other styles?


Bingo!


That's absurd. It's smooth flow that allows Chen to go from slow to fast in an instant.







I can't speak for anyone else, but from a martial standpoint my Yang resembles Chen pretty close. As far as full contact goes, yea we wear a lot of pads and we leave are feet often……this will make sense to he that knows Taijiquan



Facing other styles? Yea, and I've been sued too. (for property damage…of all things .....long story….) Yes, have done shoot fighting using what I know. I found it a great sport to polish some shui and tou skills. However, from a self-defense standpoint, I found the sport to contribute to some practices un-conducive to one's overall self-defense preparedness.

[Shooter]

Can anyone tell me about a Yang school that does full contact free sparring, and regularly faces up to other styles?

Northern Lights Tai Chi players have fought NHB and sub-wrestling and a few of us have done quite well for ourselves over the years.

How many Chen stylists have fought in MMA or competed against at least intermediate level grapplers?

[Brad]

''Yang taiji is for those who cant do chen taiji.''
I'd say yes and no. I can see how Chen's form work could be too hard on the body for some people, and Yang Cheng Fu's form would be easier to practice. I think Sun's form is even easier on the bod then YCF's form though.

When it comes to fighting though, can't really say which is better. Off the top of my head, I can't think of too many Taiji groups of any style that have put out quality fighters in a sports arena. William C.C. Chen(Cheng Man Ching Taiji-a YCF offshoot) is one, and I think a member of one of these forums is a San Shou competitor that does Wudang taiji(the group that branched off of wu style?)

[Syd]

It sounds like a cop out.

But it isn't, it's just the way things are. If you want to fight in the ring, off ya go, but I've got no use for it.

How can someone crippled for life hand you your arse? Double K.O ?

It's just my way of saying I wouldn't go down without letting the bugger know they were in one, thats all. You think a person always puts someone down without sustaining injury to themselves also? Anything and everything is possible...

''Yang taiji is for those who cant do chen taiji.''

All the Yangers I know have no interest in learning Chen; they don't discuss Chen because it's not relevant, not because they can't do it. The above statement is ignorant. You choose an art and you do it because you want to, not because you can't do something else.

[backbreaker]

What about Yang style with pao chui? Do you know old yang style cannon fist? What does it look like? I learned the first quarter or so of chen style cannon fist. Does anyone know guang ping yang style? Does it have cannon fist?

[Syd]

I practice Old Yang Style which is totally different from the Cheng Fu forms in terms of intent and martial application. It is allot closer to the Chen style than it is most anything else. There are leaping kicks, explosive expressions of fajin, stamping the ground and silk reeling etc. This is what I think of when I am talking about Yang Style... not Cheng Fu's art.

The only thing we perform that is called Pau Chui is the Small and Large San Sau. I just wish the Taijiquan community could get beyond the disharmony of Styles and look to the unifying elements. We're all part of the same family art. If a Wu stylist or some other style went up against another art and won tomorrow, do you think other Taiji stylists wouldn't claim it a victory for Taijiquan and stop caring about the division on arts?

Chen, Wu, Yang, Hao, Sun, Li... they are all great, just different.

[Chuck Man Chuck]

Chang Tung Sheng's Tai Chi Chuan, a Yang style derivative can be used for fighting, and a good number of its practitioners also fight competitive San Shou and Shuai Chiao.

This style is currently being taught by Dr. Daniel Weng in Cupertino, Oakland and San Francisco, around the United States and in Brazil by his students. There are also other Chang Style students of Master Chang himself, teaching in the U.S. and around the world.

In the Chang Style Long Form there is one definite "Cannon Fist" sequence, as well as a side kick. Though kicks in Chang Style are sometimes used as throwing maneuvers.

It's kind'a like a style used to smooth out and relax, hard style fighters. though full of application of it's own.

[Walter Joyce]

Originally posted by Ma_Xu_Zha
Someone said the other day- ''Yang taiji is for those who cant do chen taiji.''

what are your opinions to this?



I can do both.

I do ba gua for the most part and do Yang taiji when I want a softer energy in my workout.

I find chen and bagua somewhat similar, same spiraling. At my current stage of development I can't do bagua as soft as taiji, my body won't let me. BUT, my teacher advocates the same soft approach.

I kinda find questions like this questionable, but here I am responding.

[brassmonkey]

I think it comes down to the teacher. I've heard of Yang, Wu and Sun(Cartmells Students) sparring but never any Chen, which Chen teacher's students do sparring?

[brassmonkey]

I take that back. Mike Patterson teaches a Chen style.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

I am going to have to say that it is the fighter that makes the style, not the style that makes the fighter.

my experience- as for yang taiji, i have been shown alot more applications and techniques of boxing, chi-na, and shuia jow techniques, while the chen teachers basically just make you be very correct in silk reeling and form for so many years without teaching any applications and push hands or at least much of it, that it disinterests me.

if they do teach techniques or applications, it usually some chen family trick like trying to twist or bend their arm in which you cant.
i have respect for learning slow and exact postures, but most chen teachers teach either useless short forms and alot of silk exercises.ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I do both.. find them to be complimentary.. I teach fighting at my school, with emphasis on good internal technique.. we are interested in the peace that comes from feeling adequately prepared to meet "most" of life's challenges..

Training hard to meet life's challenges is appropriate.. fighting to see who's best is ego gratification.. it's not impossible, but it is unlikely that someone will be mugged by a world-class MMA/IMA fighter.. short of that and guns, our training prepares us well..

As for styles.. learn the principles and the styles will take care of themselves.. it is the principles that make any style worthy of study..

Be well..

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Syd
[B]My last word on this; Most of the Taijiquan fighters I know are not interested in ring sports or fighting as sport.

The issue is not sport, my friend, it's about testing what you think you understand. How do you do that without getting into full contact? A tourney is a good place to do just that without breaking the law (unlike starting streetfights) Until you TEST what you think you know, you're gambling with your butt and living under a delusion of safety.


I think a difference may be where perhaps some of the Taiji community is coming from philsophically as opposed to the attitude and philosophy of BJJ. Personally I am not particulalry interested in entering a ring and having it out with other MA's because there are rules within those circumstances that prevent most of the prime techniques and applications ,within my system at least, to be used. Essentially rendering what I do pretty obselete.

Eye jabs, throat shots, temple shots, etc etc etc... are all out the door.

That IS a cop-out, Syd. "Attitude" and "Philosophy" are far removed from the ability to fight. The eye-jab/throat shot thing is not a good arguement considering that there is public evidence showing that BJJ knows how to deal with it...

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Ma_Xu_Zha
I am going to have to say that it is the fighter that makes the style, not the style that makes the fighter.

my experience- as for yang taiji, i have been shown alot more applications and techniques of boxing, chi-na, and shuia jow techniques, while the chen teachers basically just make you be very correct in silk reeling and form for so many years without teaching any applications and push hands or at least much of it, that it disinterests me.

if they do teach techniques or applications, it usually some chen family trick like trying to twist or bend their arm in which you cant.
i have respect for learning slow and exact postures, but most chen teachers teach either useless short forms and alot of silk exercises.ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz

In my neck of the woods we begin with standing, rollback, ward off, press, and push, move on to one short form and learn the apps right off the bat. Then comes the large frame long form, apps right off the bat. The apps we do are straightforward, not arcane "family tricks". Silk reeling is not pushed, but the people who practice the exercises usually do a bit better than the ones who don't.

[Syd]

JohnCain,

Sparring is not full contact unless you are striking temples, breaking arms and legs and applying the maximum force in the most realistic situation... ultimately unless you are in a real situation your still *not* in a *real* situation!

Who's kidding who here?

I understand the nature of your statement but I disagree with the trajectory... let's leave it at that, you won't convert me.

Merry Xmas...

[Brad]

Personally I am not particulalry interested in entering a ring and having it out with other MA's because there are rules within those circumstances that prevent most of the prime techniques and applications ,within my system at least, to be used. Essentially rendering what I do pretty obselete.

Do you do that stuff in practice? NHB athletes have a set of skills that they can and do use in full power on a regular basis. If you can submit someone, that usually means you could also use that same technique to break your opponent. Taiji has punches, kicks, throws, and grappling. There's nothing preventing you from using taiji techniques in a tournement setting.
Basically it sounds like you aren't able to test anything in a live setting except some pushhands(which isn't fighting), much like some modern wushu forms athletes. Anyway, I don't think sport fighting is necesary to become a good fighter, but it IS a cop out to say that it's too limited... If you can't test your stuff in the ring because it's too dangerous, then you can't exactly test your stuff in school practice either can you? Unless you're going around breaking each others limbs and killing each other ;) The closest you can get to a real situation(legally) is through tournement fighting.

[Syd]

We spar amongst ourselves and apply our techniques and applications as close to *real* as we can. The fact that I have no interest in applying it in the ring is a personal preference shared by most people I know.

Street fighting and tournament fighting are very different animals. I know what I can do and where I'm going with my training and that's all that matters to me. If you think it's a cop out, great. If you don't, great.

Bottom line is that if you want to prove yourself in a tournament go right ahead, I got no use for it. Doesn't mean I can't fight or apply what I train, it just means I don't have the interest and I don't feel I need to prove anything to anybody but myself.

A man in the right frame of mind can go his entire life without ever having a single fight. This is the true warrior...

Best, Syd

[bamboo_ leaf]

''Yang taiji is for those who cant do chen taiji.''


I would have to disagree with this statement.

I have met and seen a few Chen people in my time; the style doesn’t really appeal to me for many reasons none important here.

I think both are equally demanding arts, just different emphases due to evolution of thought and experiences of different masters. It seems strange some how for an art that emphasis change and emptiness for people still trying to cling to some form and way as the only way instead of just an expression of it.

They then try to look for answers outside of themselves to support beliefs not founded on direct experience, again strange for an inner art only acquired thought direct experience.

As to the history and watering down (what ever this supposed to mean), think about who he was really teaching and what the results would have been for him and his family had it not been a valid model for others to follow.

[Chuck Man Chuck]

Good point Bamboo_Leaf,

Your point is a valid one -could the Ching dynasty rulers use the Tai Chi Chuan they were taught? I bet if they couldn't it would have been off with Yang Lu Chuan's head!

I think of the Yang style akin to the founding of Aikido. Yashiba smoothed out the Aiki-jutsu and developed the internal power to a greater degree, just as I belive the Yang family did to the Chen style.

I was told by Doc Fai Wong once, that it was the Yang family that developed the Tai Chi Sword and the Chen family copied it back from the Yang's.

[Syd]

It is reported that Yang Lu Chan had no sword in Yang Style until his son Yang Ban Hou was taught a sword form by a Wudang Taoist Priest. Yang Ban Hou was said to be as proficient in the Jian as his father was in Spear.

[Chuck Man Chuck]

Syd,

Doc didn't say how they developed the Sword, though as you indicate, it wasn't from the Chen's. Good deal -Merry Christmas, or in Chinese -Yukuaide Shengdanjie!

[RAF]

Doc Fai Wang has the Wu Dang Sword of Li Jing Lin who learned it from Song Wei Yi. Song Wei Yi told them that he learned it from a Daoist Priest (maybe, maybe not). Doc Fai Wong wrote this in a Wushu Kungfu article on the taiji sword in the 1980s.


If, and thats a big If, Yang Lu Chan had a straightsword, then it most likely came from the Chen Clan where he studied 18 years (documented, the 18 years. Stories about Jiang Fa and all that is just pure speculation at best). Also hard to find out when the straightsword came into the Chen family.

But no one seems to have documented that Yang Lu Chan even played a straightsword (jian).

Story is that either Yang Ban Hou or Yang Shao Hou traded their taijiquan with Song Wei Yi and that is how the straightsword got into the Yang lineage.

We know that Chen Weiming, disciple of Yang Cheng Fu, learned his two man sword fighting from Li Jing Lin and not Yang Cheng Fu. See Chen Weiming's sword book for his own conclusion that the Wudang sword is the (or a) taiji sword along with his experience with Li Jing Lin.

We also know that Zheng Man Qing had two man sword fighting along with two man training (posted film clips) and if Yang Cheng Fu did not teach his disciple Chen Weiming this, as indicated in his book, its questionable that Zheng Man Qing learned these from Yang Cheng Fu. Its questionable how much sword training Yang Cheng Fu had or even made available, assuming he had it, to his disciples.

Song Wei Yi was hired to teach the military units of Li Jing Lin.
Li Jing Lin also taught Chang Deng Sheng the wudang/taiji sword. The story is on one of their sites.

It is documented that Chen Fake's daughter played a straightsword (the routine was printed in the old Journal of Chen Style taijiquan) but I never heard of Chen Fake playing the jian or dao for that matter.

Scott Rodell just recently put out a very good book on the taiji sword and wisely concluded that it is almost impossible to document where and when the sword entered into taiji---smart man!

[Chuck Man Chuck]

None of the posts presented on this thread agrees with any of the other post, nor presents any compelling credentials, arguments, or documentation to be accepted as any kind of fact or authority. So, I'll go by what I've been told and seen performed by those I know; and which I have also observed conforms to the established norms of Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan.

In this respect one may say the same for me,
but the Chen Family doesn't equal Wu Dang Temple; nor does Wu Dang Sword equal Yang Style Tai Chi Sword; nor does Yang Lu Chan equal Yang Ban Hou or Yang Shao Hou as far as being independent and able to invent or incorporate any given element of Yang Style Tai Chi Chan.