Robert W. Smith is so arrogant!

[travelsbyknight]

There's three parts to this post.

1. I've read most of this guy's books. Ok, I browsed through most of them. He puts Southern styles down all the time always explaining how the "internal" styles are better because they don't use physical conditioning and strength, but the mind and energy instead. Does his argument have any meat to it? Is physical conditioning such as hitting the wooden dummy really that bad for you?

2. Is Robert W. SMith any good? I mean, the dude only studied in Taiwan for about ten years. HOW MUCH COULD HE HAVE LEARNED? Has anyone ever seen him in action or does all his fame come from him being one of the first Americans to write about Chinese martial arts?

3. In a couple of his books, he talks about masters wh lives past 70 years old. What about the ones that didn't?? These "great" masters who mastered all that internal bs...they all looked like crap in those pictures! Internal bs? Maybe. Does anyone know how those "great" masters measured up to great Southern masters?

[Vash]

Royce would choke him out.

[WanderingMonk]

don't judge a fighter by his size, it is the size of the fight in his heart.

Anyways, it doesn't really matters what happened in the past, it was in the past. What matter is the present.

wm

[travelsbyknight]

I agree. Let the past be the past...accept for the fact that his books are still being published and sold in the present. So your argument is meaningless.

Now shut up and stop trying to be a smart profound person. Get back to the topic at hand.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
I agree. Let the past be the past...accept for the fact that his books are still being published and sold in the present. So your argument is meaningless.


No, I hope people spent more time improving the state of kung fu in the present. It doesn't matter how good the old masters were, they can't do the fighting for today's kungfu fighters. More realistic training. More sparring. Beat some MMA guys in MMA competition, so MMA people can shut up.

oh, I feel much better now.


Now shut up and stop trying to be a smart profound person. Get back to the topic at hand. [/B]
No, not trying to be profound. Just edited my post carefully to delete a lot of meaningless rant. You asked for it, so here some more of my meaningless rant.

GM Wang Xian Zhaï (who later founded yiquan and student of Famous xiny yi master Guo Yun sen), went to south China to test his skill. He challenged several masters. Against Crane master Jie3 tie3 fu1, out of 10 matches, wang lost all 10. Against Crane Master Fang1 Qia4 Zhong1, out of 10 matches, Wang lost 6. But, these were polite challenges. They did push hand type matches. Then, they exchanged training methods and some of the crane training methods are in yiquan today. According to some of GM Wang's students, he warned them to be respectful and careful when facing against crane stylists and Si-chuan mei hua fighters. Does it prove yiquan is better or crane is better?

Don't know too much about what happen between internal and souther arts in Guangdong area.

But, after Nationalist government moved to Taiwan, a lot of Baji, Taiji, and other internal art came to Taiwan as well. One of the Bagua guy was fighting for territories and started to beat up fujian crane teachers. He was moving south and moving in on crane's terrorities. This went on for 2 months+. Then, one of the senior Crane teacher step-up, beat up the bagua guy up and chased him out.

So, bagua beat crane. Then, crane beat bagua. does it prove, bagua is better than crane every time?

During his stay in TW, Smith was thrown by Shuai Chiao Master Chang Dong Sen (he had won two national championship in china). GM Chang didn't like Smith and refused to teach him anything.

Smith (who had judo training) went on to trash Shuai Chiao in his book and wrote SC is inferior to judo. In a recent rec.martial-art thread couple months back, someone used Smith's writing (SC is inferior to Judo b/c Smith said so) to justify judo is better. Does it mean SC sucks and judo is better? Everybody has bias and agenda. ok?

wm

[travelsbyknight]

You're too nice, dude! You shoulda shredded me for my comments. I feel like the ***** I am now. Thanks for the helpful info. I actually bought Martial Musings again today for my friend and started reading it. It's sort of a late Christmas present. And yeah, you heard me. I'm reading it a little even though it's his. Someone has to break it in!

One day, I want to meet an internal practicioner who can actually show me all the stuff that the big Rob writes about in his books. He mentioned something called, "mysterious energy" in his Hsing I book and he said that this energy heals everything in your body(minus brain tumors and getting your leg cut off by a train). I'd love to check some of this stuff out one day...unles it's all bullsh*t.

[cerebus]

Well, first of all I'd like to mention that I have no personal knowledge of Mr. Smith myself. I've corresponded with people who DO know him though and I have read all of his books. Actually, he doesn't "trash" Shuai Jiao, and Chang Dung Sheng DID accept him as a student (though he gave him the boot when he found out he was training under other instructors behind his [Chang's] back, or so I understand). What Smith says is that Shuai Jiao lacks ground grappling (it does) and he feels that the Judo breakfall is better than the Shuai Jiao breakfall (many other people agree). I'll not make any comment on Smith's abilities since I've never seen him in action. As for the masters Smith trained with, he learned Hsing-I & Bagua from Hung I Hsiang & his brother Hung I Mien. The Hung brothers were known for producing some of the top full contact fighters on Taiwan and the brothers themselves had formidable reputations as tough streetfighters. No one who knows anything about Hung I Hsiang (or his brother) has any doubts about his abilities. Again, though I can't comment on Smith's abilities, his teachers were top notch.

[WanderingMonk]

Cerebus,

Thank you for pointing out my mistake. Since you actually read Smith's book, I assume you are more accurate.

Another reader of Smith's book "Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods" did have a different opinion.

"Smith felt that much of Shuai Chiao was similar to Judo, but he felt that judo was a superior art because judo techniques are constantly being revised to make them more effective in competition. (To be fair, Smith was a judoka). "

Just to state there are some difference in interpretation of Mr. Smith's opinion of shuai Chiao. But, certainly, not as harsh, as I had previous stated.

Didn't know GM Chang actually took Smith in as a student, the impression I got while browsing some thread was that Chang wasn't happy with Smith. I guess now I know why.

wm

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

My personal experience is that Souther Kung Fu is worthless against atew kwon do or kick boxing, let along northern Kung Fu. Robert is right. Stupid southern kung fu practiced by farmers who squabble about pigs.

[cerebus]

Happy New Year Ego!:D

[iblis73]

Well, I woulndt doubt Smiths veracity. His peers were Bluming (still not a man to be trifled with),Draeger, Geesink and Geohegan. Powerful, proven men who came up in harsh times.

I like smiths judo/boxing background. Hes rough and tumble. You should see the JOURNAL OF ASIAN MARTIAL ARTS, volume 10 number 1-2001. Theres an in depth interview in there with Smith and a great question where Smith addresses the question of what sort of "stylist" to take on the mean streets with you. Very interesting and illuminating.

Smith wasnt that critical of southern boxing methods, he just felt they were inferior due to a concentration on hand techniques. He felt the northern styles were more "versatile". Personally, I disagree, as most fights happen up close and personal.

Its a pity he never saw the powerful kickboxers of Thailand or the Filipino escrimadors in action, would love to have gotten his commentary on them.

Also note that he says even in Taiwan the quality of the boxers has gotten pretty low, owing to modernization, industrialization and commercialization. That was about 20 odd years ago!

[travelsbyknight]

How would these taiwanese masters rank with masters such as Gin foon Mark and Yip man?

[bustr]

"Its a pity he never saw the powerful kickboxers of Thailand or the Filipino escrimadors in action, would love to have gotten his commentary on them."

You're talking like he's dead. As far as I know he's still alive and well.

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by iblis73

Also note that he says even in Taiwan the quality of the boxers has gotten pretty low, owing to modernization, industrialization and commercialization. That was about 20 odd years ago!

At first, this sound like a valid assessment. Buit, upon some reflection, I think it is missing some cultural nuance.

First, Taiwn being a confucian based society, a disproportionate emphasis are placed on academic. School children starting at a very early age are robbed of time to have fun/sports. After long hours of school, Hundred of thousands of kids are sent into cram school to prepare for exams. These exams determine whether a kid get into a good intermediate and high school. Although it has been recently done away with, this regiment of schooling herd most youths into the academic world instead of atheltics for several decades.

Second, the prevalence of martial art fantasy novels in Asia. It gives the populace a skew view of martial arts. It concentrate on the fantastic feat and overlook the hard work it took to achieve it. Many youths end up with unrealistic expection and when their dull training do not meet their expection, they become discourage and quit.

third, pure money and societal prejudice . There are not many rich kung fu experts in China or Taiwan. They actually tend to end up being poor through mismangement or other issues. Regardless, this is not a type of career path which parents encourage their children to explore. Also, many schools are often considered to be hang out for gang members to get their training. The prevalent misconception discourage parents from sending in their children.

fourth, lack of competition outlet. There were very little (zero) televised kung fu events in the ten plus years I spent in Taiwan.

All these add up to be a hostile environment toward kung fu.

wm

[WanderingMonk]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
How would these taiwanese masters rank with masters such as Gin foon Mark and Yip man?

You should ask Mr. Gene Ching. He had the pleasure of visiting Taiwan recently. It was all part of Taiwan Tourist board's attempt to captialize on Taiwan's martail art cultures. The government sent out invitation to MA publications to US, UK, Germany, and Austrilia based publications.

Taiwan brought out teachers from Bagua, Baji, Fujian Crane, Hung gar, etc. You can ask his opinion of Taiwan masters' performance.

wm

[Tsuruken]

Sifu Dong Mu-Yau is my teacher and he was one of those who gave a display of his art for the visiting journalists. His art (Fujian White Crane) is extremely practical. I have footage taken at the Journalists meeting where Sifu demonstrates various aspects of his art including applications. Sifu is 84 years of age and moves better than most half his age.

[iblis73]

I was rereading the interview again and Smith basically says that the current crop of boxers (and this started years ago) lack the rural ambience that allowed for rigorous training and that there are too many distractions in todays world.

I can understand. Even here in the US the best fighters tend to be those who can dedicate themselves to it on a full time, regular basis. This basically falls into fighters and full time teachers. Especially as we grow into our 20s and 30s we are under constant constrains: family,job and education come to mind.

[iblis73]

I'd like to reread Smiths classic "Chinese Boxing" text. While I believe he said that northern styles were more "complete" his descriptions of southern styles were delicious-short range blows, locks and kicks! Perfect for most self defense situations if you ask me and probably more practical.

Though not involved with gongfu anymore I always find myself gravitating towards the southern methods-bak mei, wing chun, southern mantis and the like.

[travelsbyknight]

Here's my take on Smith's opinion that the current crop of boxers isn't as good. And remember, what he said is only that: An OPINION.

1. We do have a lot of distractions today. What did they have to do back then in Taiwan? Masterbate and practice kung fu! Of course they had families and such, but I'm refering to the kung fu masters themselves. I mean, these guys obviously weren't banging anyone on a regular basis cause other wise all of their internal energy would squirted out of them. SO they had to deny themselves a human pleasure to get to their "level" of efficiency. Their kids didn't have to compete to get into medical schools and the like. They didn't have malls set up which is why they had their rural settings. I bet Taiwan looks a lot different know. These masters are probably practicing chi gung in their swimming pools now.

2. I'm starting to believe that Robert W. SMith's opinion is biased and therefore should be ignored. He was in TAiwan from 1959-1962. Obviously he had to have gone back over the years cause where else would he have gotten all of those pictures and information. The problem with his book is a common problem I see among kung fu practicioners today. We(and Mr. SMith) focus on the one dude that lived to 100 years of age and that was really REALLY good. I've heard stories of guys with telekinetic powers and of fighters that were beating men up twice their size in their 70s. Smith focuses on certain masters as well. HEre's the problem: Even if all of these stories that he's told and that I've heard were true...MOST OF US WILL NOT REACH THAT LEVEL. I believe that it is the individual and not the style that makes it to the superhuman level. I'm a sociologist and this is how we look at things. You have to look at how MOST of the practicioners turn out...not one or even five of them. This is also assuming that such feats of superhumaness(is this even a word) are even possible. Some consider Davide Blane(not sure if that's how you spell his name) is superhuman but that's a topic for another thread.

3. The only thing, in my opinion, that's deteriorating is Smith's memory and health. After all his preaching about internal styles and health, all SMith has to show for it is that he's really old and probably can barely move around anymore. IF anyone has seen him recently and can contest this...then do so. Otherwise, I keep my stance.

4. What makes people think that this "complete" northern styles are better than southern styles? I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum than Smith was. I've been mostly exposed to southern styles. The only two northern style I've seen are Northern Mantis(not sure if this is considered a northern style) and white crane. White crane has very similar footword to bak mei...which is similar to wing chun...which is similar to southern mantis....and on and on and on.

One day I'm going to open up a school teaching a "northern" style. I'm going to make up some bs style and open up the school down South somewhere. I"m going to make so much money off of the myth that SMith and all these other "internal" stylists have created. Thanks, Smith. By the way, I'm not really going to do this. It was a joke.

[cerebus]

Hmmm. Well I don't think anyone should just ignore what Robert Smith wrote, nor do I believe that everything he said should be treated as infallible truth. People seem to want to either idolize him or put him down. He did something that most of us will never do and he did it long before almost anyone else had. And he wrote about it. Like any other human being on this planet, he had his opinions and he expressed them. Whether anyone likes the fact or not, Robert Smith's writings, with whatever flaws & exaggerations they contain, are valuable sources of info from someone who has "been there & done that" (which many of us have not). Just my own take on the matter.

[Chin Chung Cao]

Hello travelsbynight, I'm not clear as to way you seem to have so much anger toward R.W. Smith, but then that's between you and him. In response to the second part of your original question, I was lucky enough to spend four year's studying under Mr. Smith and found him to be an exceptional teacher. I wouldn't say that he was arrogant but most definitely opinionated. As for his hand, yes, he has power and can use it quite well. I never thought of him as a "perfect form" type of guy, but when he demonstrated usage or application's you didn't want to be on the reciveing end.
Function was something he could show and make a believer out of you. His main training is in Tai Chi Chuan, something I wasn't very interested in then or now. He retired a few years ago so I dont understand why anyone is worried about his ability to fight. He should be left in peace to enjoy his retirment, he's paid his dues and earned it. But then this is America and opinion's are like a-holes, everyone has one.