Robert W. Smith is so arrogant!

[travelsbyknight]

There's three parts to this post.

1. I've read most of this guy's books. Ok, I browsed through most of them. He puts Southern styles down all the time always explaining how the "internal" styles are better because they don't use physical conditioning and strength, but the mind and energy instead. Does his argument have any meat to it? Is physical conditioning such as hitting the wooden dummy really that bad for you?

2. Is Robert W. SMith any good? I mean, the dude only studied in Taiwan for about ten years. HOW MUCH COULD HE HAVE LEARNED? Has anyone ever seen him in action or does all his fame come from him being one of the first Americans to write about Chinese martial arts?

3. In a couple of his books, he talks about masters wh lives past 70 years old. What about the ones that didn't?? These "great" masters who mastered all that internal bs...they all looked like crap in those pictures! Internal bs? Maybe. Does anyone know how those "great" masters measured up to great Southern masters?

[taijiquan_student]

This is completely unrelated to Robert Smith, but ten years is kind of a long time...

[travelsbyknight]

Ten years isn't a long time when you're studying with a bunch of guys. Robert W. Smith studied with some many people that I think it's safe to say he couldn't have retained anything.

This brings another point up. Just about every older guy I meet says something to this effect. "I've been studying for 30 years. I know what I'm doing." It seems that 30 years is becoming the bullsh*t number by which people judge how good they are. I'm not satisfied with 30 anymore. Don't brag unless you've been studying for 50 years. I doubt most of these people studied for 30 years straight.

Anyway, back to Robert W. Smith. No more tangents.

[brassmonkey]

I've heard several people state he comes off as an arrogant *******. I've read some of his work he certainly is longwinded with his style of using allegories but some people like that.

The judo people love his Judo stuff but can't understand his bias for internal arts. I think he was a 2nd or 3rd degree Judokan when he went to Taiwan. I guess you did skim through he sure wasnt in Taiwan for 10 years I think it was more like 3 or 4. I'm sure he continued getting corrections from his Master and seniors when he returned to the U.S. HOw good is he? Well it would all be speculation.

[jun_erh]

I felt he was realistic about the character of his teachers in Chinese Boxing. That all except for one smoked for one. I think he talked about the extemely heavy opium use in Chen village and in general gave god appraisals about who was an a hole and who wasn't. that said he was very much the product of his teachers prejudices. Though he does give props to various shaolin teachers and techniques, internal is really his thing regardless of whther you or I value those styles. I find that when he strays from that he falters. People shoud really write about what they know, even if it seems like a small little area.

[brassmonkey]

yeah I don't remember any southern bias either, your right Jun he praises some Shaolin and even Southern Shaolin teachers if memory serves. Interestingly he notes how he hadnt quite fused together his Judo with TCC yet. I'd like to see that. Maybe a bit like Cha'ng style TCC with TCC entry and SHui Chiao attacking methods.

He sure blasts Shui Chiao as not evolving as Judo did. He had a healty fear of Cha'ng Tung Sheng though.:) I don't agree with his opinions of MMA either. But we're all bias to some degree with our teachers/styles so I don't blame him too much.

[Buddy]

Smith is a CIA hack that was lucky to have been given the time of day. But it was all politics that got him there. Just look at his Xingyi and Bagua stuff in his books. He has no understanding those arts. I think his judo was probably ok. And three years is probably the upside of his tenure.
That said the man did an large service to the martial art world when he wrote those books, however much his own depictions suck.
Buddy

[backbreaker]

If you got 30 years experience , better hope you never get knocked out by someone with 1 year. I beleive there are 2 factors , quality and quantity

[travelsbyknight]

When I said I "browsed," I meant I read MOST of the books that I did read. I read all of his "Chinese MAsters" books and about half of his last book, "Martial Musings." In Martial Musings, you will know what long winded means. My god, he takes forever to get to his point. ANyway, there was a section where I remember him bad mouthing Wing Chun. He said wing chun was some obscure art that would never be able to withstand an attack from an internal stylist. Something like that(don't quote me directly). Also in his "Chinese Masters" book, I remember him writing something that went like this. "IN the south, they eat rice and that's why they're weaker. The people of the north eat wheat noodles which makes them be able to withstand strong punches to the stomach. In the south they can't handle hard hits."

Something like that. I just bought his hsing yi and ba gua books. I can't wait to finish them then return them. If any of you guys go into Borders and see his Hsing I and Bagua books with drool stains...you know they were mine and I fell asleep over them. :)

[Unmatchable]

I remember he put Shui Chiao down saying Judo was superior.

[jun_erh]

martial musings is highly overrated. Alot of it is basically outtakes from "Chinese Boxing".

[PHILBERT]

I'll go to the bookstore tomorrow or Monday and see if they have a copy of Martial Musings and see if I can find the Wing Chun quote.

I own his Secrets of Shaolin Temple Boxing (never read), Hsing-I and Pakua books, all of which I got at a half price bookstore.

[travelsbyknight]

Don't bother looking in the bookstore because they probably won't have it. I had to special order it and it came today.

Wing Chun:

He said wing chun is an obscure southern style that no one in mainland China practices. Yip Man is an obscure unheard of master. Wing Chun has too many hand movements and would fall victim to body weight, kicks, and long attacks(not sure about this one).

It's in the Bruce Lee section. He goes on to bad mouth Bruce Lee which I don't really care about cause I don't care for Bruce Lee much.

[Thundermudd]

Smith is/was a spy - His descriptions and knowledge of Bagua and Xing Yi are rudimentary at best.
As for the 10 years - he might have been decent had he spent those 10 years training in ONE style; but I suppose when you are busy spying that you have to travel alot and don't have time to train in 1 style:)
Not saying its bad to train in multiple systems; just need to find what works for you and stick with it.
I agree w/ Buddy that Smith did open alot of peoples eyes to the IMA's, but he just provides a vauge glipse of a pool of knowledge that has no end.
Chris

[jun_erh]

His Bruce Lee piece was the worst thing ever. He was totally ut of his element, no idea what he was talking about. and his dismissal of wing chun was out of ignorance too.

[travelsbyknight]

Here's my take on Smith's opinion that the current crop of boxers isn't as good. And remember, what he said is only that: An OPINION.

1. We do have a lot of distractions today. What did they have to do back then in Taiwan? Masterbate and practice kung fu! Of course they had families and such, but I'm refering to the kung fu masters themselves. I mean, these guys obviously weren't banging anyone on a regular basis cause other wise all of their internal energy would squirted out of them. SO they had to deny themselves a human pleasure to get to their "level" of efficiency. Their kids didn't have to compete to get into medical schools and the like. They didn't have malls set up which is why they had their rural settings. I bet Taiwan looks a lot different know. These masters are probably practicing chi gung in their swimming pools now.

2. I'm starting to believe that Robert W. SMith's opinion is biased and therefore should be ignored. He was in TAiwan from 1959-1962. Obviously he had to have gone back over the years cause where else would he have gotten all of those pictures and information. The problem with his book is a common problem I see among kung fu practicioners today. We(and Mr. SMith) focus on the one dude that lived to 100 years of age and that was really REALLY good. I've heard stories of guys with telekinetic powers and of fighters that were beating men up twice their size in their 70s. Smith focuses on certain masters as well. HEre's the problem: Even if all of these stories that he's told and that I've heard were true...MOST OF US WILL NOT REACH THAT LEVEL. I believe that it is the individual and not the style that makes it to the superhuman level. I'm a sociologist and this is how we look at things. You have to look at how MOST of the practicioners turn out...not one or even five of them. This is also assuming that such feats of superhumaness(is this even a word) are even possible. Some consider Davide Blane(not sure if that's how you spell his name) is superhuman but that's a topic for another thread.

3. The only thing, in my opinion, that's deteriorating is Smith's memory and health. After all his preaching about internal styles and health, all SMith has to show for it is that he's really old and probably can barely move around anymore. IF anyone has seen him recently and can contest this...then do so. Otherwise, I keep my stance.

4. What makes people think that this "complete" northern styles are better than southern styles? I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum than Smith was. I've been mostly exposed to southern styles. The only two northern style I've seen are Northern Mantis(not sure if this is considered a northern style) and white crane. White crane has very similar footword to bak mei...which is similar to wing chun...which is similar to southern mantis....and on and on and on.

One day I'm going to open up a school teaching a "northern" style. I'm going to make up some bs style and open up the school down South somewhere. I"m going to make so much money off of the myth that SMith and all these other "internal" stylists have created. Thanks, Smith. By the way, I'm not really going to do this. It was a joke.

[travelsbyknight]

Actually, Junwerelk(whatever your name is)



I think his Bruce Lee chapter was the only bit of truth in his whole book(besides his own past). Hate to let you all know this...but I don't believe that Bruce Lee was the real deal either. Some books try to paint a nice picture of him. Some books say bad stuff about him such as his huge drug problem and bad temper.

We may find out the truth about the Kennedy assassination before we find out the truth about Bruce Lee. All I know is what I've heard from my Sifu which is what he heard from his friends that trained with Bruce Lee. Lee got cornholed(not literally) by kung fu people in New york city. For some reason, not much was ever written on his experiences in New York City. Wonder why? Embarrassed perhaps? I saw a clip of one of his famous "roof top fights" and let me tell you...from what I saw, it didn't look anything like Wing chun. Don't ask me where I found the clip cause I couldn't tell you. Maybe Bruce Lee and Robert W. SMith have a lot in common. They both were ****y bastids! But who am I to speak? So am I!

[bamboo_ leaf]

Funny thing about all the people negatively posting on Mr. Smiths books, none has written any themselves, must be this age of the net, find some one famous make claims, get others to agree.


Mr. Smith wrote some informative books at a time when there just wasn’t that much information out in English, the fact that his books might be a little biased towards one of his teachers and his own ideas doesn’t detract from them. Still some good reads.

i like traveling in the day, can see much better ;)

[travelsbyknight]

The funny thing about people who post negatively about people posting against Mr. Smith...is that YOU'RE DOING THE SAME EXACT THING I AM!. What makes your negative post different from my negative post? NOTHING. Don't get into any stupid philosophical discussions which have nothing to do with the topic. The topic was introduced by me...and Mr. Smith is the topic. I don't care how many books he's written...or even how many you've written. It's a public forum so get over it. I could sit here and make fun of your mother if I wanted to...but I'm not. Stop pretending to be a high and mighty snob.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Mr. Smith wrote some informative books at a time when there just wasn’t that much information out in English, the fact that his books might be a little biased towards one of his teachers and his own ideas doesn’t detract from them. Still some good reads

[Ray Pina]

Who cares? Write your own **** book.

It's easy to knock down, not as easy to build up. Is the guy arrogant? Yea, a bit. So what?

10 years is a long time to study. How long have you studied to argue against him? With whom have YOU studied?

I don't like a lot of what he says either. He tottaly dismisses the UFC. I think that's a great forum, a tool for measuring one's skill -- not a style's worth, just one style's practioner's skill.

You know what though, I wouldn't start a post over it. It's opinion. And too many poeple here have too many of them. We don't need to know every thought and whim you have about every subject in martial arts.

Does it add something to your or our skill set, our understanding? Then post it! Dies it try to build you up while knocking someone down? Then hold it. We are all bums! Who are you? Who am I? Until we step into a ring under national TV or write a book (two things I'm working on) we are nobody's in this field.

[jun_erh]

travelsbynight- totally disagree. I disagree with some of Bruce Lee's ideas, or rather, I don't think they are of much value to people who aren't him and can't practice 8 hours a day and study martial arts the other 16, but he was hugley talented. I think so from what I've seen and Yip man and pretty much every one who ever came into contact with him thought so. If you have proof otherwise besides your teacher, who apparently doesn't have a name, then let's hear it.

Smith may have been writing about that early UFC stuff, not alt f amazing techniques outside of the gracies in those

and I think we are allowed to criticize the guy. Chinese Boxing is my #1 favorite book of all time, but no one is beynd criticism

[PHILBERT]

People make livings reading books and stating there opinions. It's that simple. If no one criticized Ashida Kim on Amazon.com, how many more of his books would be sold and have more people running around thinking they are Ninjas?

[Ray Pina]

"White crane has very similar footword to bak mei...which is similar to wing chun...which is similar to southern mantis....and on and on and on. "

This statement alone points out that some people should hold their tongue, that they are not qualified to critique. Of course that never stopped anyone here.

Note: I have studied Bak Mei, Southern Mantis AND Wing Chun. I have also been studying internal (mostly Hsing-I) exclusively now for three years.

[Vash]

Robert W. Smith is so arrogant!

His ego is nothing compared to mine.

NOTHING!!!

[PHILBERT]

Bah, mine is bigger.

[travelsbyknight]

You're absolutely right. I should only post discussions about things that you approve of. To your parents, you're their son or daughter. I'm not sure of your sex. To your brother, your his sibling. And on and on and on. In your own mind, you might believe your the man at kung fu or even with women. I was watching an episode of Seinfeld where Elaine told Jerry she faked every orgasm when having sex with him. Now the real question is: WHO ARE YOU TO ME? To me...you're just some blank face in a kung fu forum that I don't know and therefore don't care about. Ok?

Onward.


This is a public forum. I can post about my dirty socks if I want. If you criticize me...then you also have to criticize everyone that has responded to my origional post. I can make fun of the way Robert W. Smith looks if I wanted to! And you have no say in it. Obviously you have some respect for the guy. That's great. Guess what? I couldn't care less. Being that this is a public forum which I can post any topic I want, I'd appreciate it if you'd stick to the topic that I've posted origionally. NOw, don't get all stupid and philosophical on me and say something like, "Since this is a public forum, I can sit around and bash you while I'm spanking my monkey."

Bottom line: These people right books and put their opinions in them. We live in a country where, if a person states his or her opinion, people are allowed to agree or disagree. Get over it.

[brassmonkey]

"Hate to let you all know this...but I don't believe that Bruce Lee was the real deal either."

what is the real deal? being able to fight and not just do some forms? If so everything I've heard is Bruce was a bully who liked to fight. We find someone in cma who actually will fight and everyone riducules him for:

1. was taught the modified public version of wing chun, only the guy in Australia got taught the real Wing Chun

2. had imcomplete training, if you think he's good you should see someone who actually studied the full system with Yip Man!

3. diluted and weakened Wing Chun by mixing it with western ma

4. he didnt use chi or fajing

5. his skill was low level he got beat up by half of Chinatown

[Ray Pina]

You can critisize anyone you want, even me.

But for those of us who have been training for those 10+ years (25 for me: starting at 4) and we see you say something completely false like Bak Mei is similiar to Wing Chun which is similiar to White Crane, you lose all credability.

So to me, I don't know who you are either, but you might as well be some high school kid who picked up a few issues of Inside Kung Fu. Your knowledge of MA is superficial and you want to appear knowleable so you nitpick.

As for Smith, I do respect him. He has published a few books and I enjoyed Methods and Masters -- I think it's a classic.

As for his skill? I don't know. Never crossed hands with the man and I doubt you did either.

Less typie typie, more training. Learn that White Crane likes to set you up and use those big sweeping strikes, wing chun likes to control the middle with a barrage of straight blasts and Bak Mei, Bak Mei is much more powerful than both of them .... and not as busy, definitely more viscious. They are actually three unique prototypes. But Smith didn't say that in his book and neither did Inside Kung Fu. You'd have to learn that for yourself.

Since this is the web and we can't use hands, at least back your mouth up with knowledge ... it's all we have to go on for now.

[Chin Chung Cao]

I hate to bring this up travelsbynight, but you sound an awfull lot like a certain guy from the Baltimore area who has been banned from about a half dozen other forums. You come off with the same self-righteous attitude and the "I don't care what anyone else say's unless they agree with me," outlook. You seem to get offended as soon as someone disagree's with anything you say. This is a public forum and the reason for posting is to get input from people, both good and bad, so as to expand your own perspective. Not everyone see's thing's as you do. Personaly, I think someone like you who post's about a man he's never met and, by your own admission, only scanned through his book, come's off as pretty arrogant himself. I can tell you first hand, I trained under Mr. Smith for four years in the 80's, and found him to be an excellent teacher and quite remarkable individual. Yes, he is very opinionated, and if you had the depth of his knowledge perhap's people would give more weight to your's. Yes the men dose have the "old time' power that they talk about in Tawain, and he was more then capable of demonstrating it to you. His main training was in Tai Chi Chuan, something I was not interested in. While I never agreed with all his view's I respect him for his knowledge and what he has done to promote Chinese Martial Art's in this country and around the world. He retired several year's and deserve's to have his peace, after all, the man has paid his due's, have you?

[travelsbyknight]

It was a great flick!


Chin Chung Cao,

I'm not from Baltimore. Never been there. Never even thought of going there. I only go to places that have great pizza. Do they have great pizza?

I come off as arrogant for criticizing Smith? Perhaps...but that would make us all arrogant wouldn't it? So maybe Smith isn't that arrogant in comparison to the whole. Do I have to have met George W. Bush to criticize him? No. People bash good old Georgy porgy all the time so once again, I guess we're all arrogant in that respect.

I wish we could all just forget about this current debate...and GO BACK TO THE FIRST POST. Can you all do that? Cause if you all step out of the box, you'll see that you criticizing me is the same as me criticizing Mr. Smith. So if it's wrong for me to criticize him...then why wouldn't it be wrong for you to criticize me?

I value your posts because you've studied with the guy. See, this is what I call credible information...not some book. Do you know if Smith ever "crossed hands" or trained with any other kung fu style besides the "internal" ones? And if so, did his opinions change? Did he get knocked around? Did he do any knocking around?

Mr. Evolutionfist,

You've been training for 25 years? That's nice. Want a gold medal? Why does everyone bring the number of years they've been training into it. If you really REALLY want to get technical...then I've been training since I was born because when I was born I started moving around and making my muscles stronger, and then I started crawling, then I started walking. And when I started walking...that was the start of me practicing footwork. Take all that into account...and I've been training longer than all of you. Please. Let's get serious here. You started at age 4? Great...so how many years was it REALLY? I mean, we have to minus the years you were crapping all over the place and crying for mom and dad. Those don't count. I bet you'll tell me they do. NOw you're going to come out with some story of how you lived in a rough and tough neighborhood...and you have "real life" experience. You may have gotten into a few fights...but don't start preaching about it. If it makes you hard when you talk about your "25 years" then by all means, get hard...but don't unharden and have your internal energy splattered all over a Britney Spears poster. Let's analyze your post.

<<<Learn that White Crane likes to set you up and use those big sweeping strikes, wing chun likes to control the middle with a barrage of straight blasts and Bak Mei, Bak Mei is much more powerful than both of them .... and not as busy, definitely more viscious. They are actually three unique prototypes.>>>

I don't have ALL the knowledge of every style...and neither do you obviously. Learn that white crane has infighting as well and isn't always about the big sweeping blows. Learn that wing chun doesn't always use straight blasts. Are you telling me that a wing chun person can't throw a hook, that it always has to look like a flurry of chain punches? Not so. BAk Mei is much more powerful than both of them? You do realize that this is only the opinion of one person. BAk Mei COULD be more powerful than the other two...but then again, so could white crane.

[Ray Pina]

"we have to minus the years you were crapping all over the place "

You say this after saying you have trained your entire life, counting crawling. Learn to formulate an intelligent argument before opening your mouth.

I'm 29 and have studied for 25 years. Do the math: that is starting at 4 .... ishin ryu, hung gar/ bak mei, wing chun, S mantis, internal (Hsing-I, E-chaun).

The difference in our arguments:

You critisize Smith's martial arts *without having crossed hands with him*.... apparantly with out too much MA experience, particularly with internal (by your statements)

*I'm critsizing you for doing that.*

This has been fun, but I have work to do. I don't care what you do or think; I'd just like to increase my pleasure ... In regard to everyone here, that means making this board more valuable. Bashing an old man who retired from martial arts improves what? Giving a short, somewhat accurate biography of my youth, though fun to see, does what?

Here's a topic: When is everyone's next forseable match? What are you doing to plan for it?

My response: Jan. 24th in NYC
Facing guys who like to throw, sweep and grapple.
Focusing on healing up a few injuries to the point I don't consider them. Working on maintaining a strong shape/structure while changing ranges.... I expect a few entering shots and then for them to try and throw. At that moment I want to cancel their attempt and be in a position to strike hard and solid.

Ray Pina
PS: I don't throw out my years of training as something to fill you with awe. I do it humbly because I am sure there are many here who are my senior and who could be a teacher to me. In fact I know of at least one master who visits here but NEVER posts. But maybe you could learn something too.

[travelsbyknight]

You have work to do? You have a fight to prepare yourself for? If you're so mature...then why did you have to have the last word? I commend your hardword and I hope you keep at it.

I think we've let this get overblown a bit. Let's step back and take a deep breath.

[shaolinboxer]

Regardless of his expertise which I cannot criticize, Mr. Smith's work is very entertaining, informative, and opinionated.

He is quite a character in his writing, and I think that's inspiring.

[jun_erh]

e-fist = a bunch of guys and a girl I used to train with are on that card. Don't miss Rosado's match. He is one of my heroes. I hope to be in attendence. good luck

[donbdc]

Wow, I can't believe any one would ever say that. No one who has ever met him would. Sarcastic yes, witty very generous and unpretentious as far as I am concerned. He charged a whole $1 for each class. He wasn't hiding his secret stuff from any one. He never claimed to be any thing he wasn't. He does express some controversial opinions that I don't agree w/ . He's entitled and so are you.
I didn't like his pacifist attitudes and not teaching application but I never saw anything but humility in Robert Smith.
Don Berry wiing chun Crca student.

[GeneChing]

I have a lot of respect for Robert Smith. Sure, he's opinionated, but so am I. He may not be some kick ass master, but neither am I. He may have slighted some styles over time, but I probably do too. He may be arrogant, well, I personally don't think I'm that arrogant (some may disagree), but I'm willing to forgive such a character flaw if he is so. Smith was a pioneer in documenting Chinese styles in English and for that he will always have my respect. For any of us who do research here and publish in English, Smith is like our grand dad. His contribution to the field was unprecedented and still significant today. I would be honored to have met him.

[donbdc]

Besides Bruce Lee I really don't know any one who has done more for Chinese Martial arts as a whole.
Don Berry

[travelsbyknight]

What exactly did Bruce Lee do for Chinese martial arts? I can't wait to hear this.

I've noticed that a lot of wing chun people mention Bruce Lee in their books, not because he was anything spectacular, but because they know that people think so highly of him and will also think the same way of people affiliated with Bruce Lee.

Any thoughts?

[donbdc]

Well weather you lke Bruce or not. He exposed chinese martial arts to the masses via demonstrations and movies. As for wing chun people, I canonly speak for one, me. He was a student of Yip Man and he studied Wing Chun for a few years. You can see it in his art. I have touched hands w/ 2 of his students, Ted Wong and Daniel Lee. They are amazing men, in their late 60's and early 70's and still kick a**.
Don

[PHILBERT]

He has a point, while some might question his skill, methods or even personal life, the man did expose the Chinese arts to Westerners in such a short time.

[Chin Chung Cao]

Travelsbyknight, do you live on the moon? How can anyone not be aware of what Bruce Lee has done for martial art's? He's responsable for bringing the Wing Chun system into the public eye, Bruce was advocating cross training and full contact when most were still playing tag. Your MMA practitioner's have him to thank for popularizing what most take for granted today. And lets not forget the million's of people he influenced by his work in film's to begin exploring the martial art's, not to mention the respect and pride he instilled in Chinese everywhere. I think you need to do a little research before you condemn people you obviously know little about.

[travelsbyknight]

I bet it would be more fun than living in the United States.

Anyway.

I'm aware of what you THINK Bruce Lee did for martial arts. But I think you and I have a difference in perspective. I'm well aware of everything Bruce "did." I used to be a fan of his and I've read many of his books(not he BS ones written by his wife and others). In my opinion, his image was used by the media and by martial arts experts to promote the martial arts....especially Chinese Martial ARts. I mean, how far did he really get in the wing chun system? Not far from what I've heard. Your move.

[donbdc]

Well I am not a fan of his, though I enjoy his movies. He did have some interesting insights . Though I practice in traditional systems I really like his questioning authority and lineage and stepping out of the box a little.
I dont know what his skill levels were i never touched hands w/ him. I know people who have and were trained by him, they are pretty good. I also know Labelle beat his ass soundly, and he is stll around to tell it.
But you are right there is a lot of BS out there w/ him. Whoever he really was, just a man imperfect and flawed like the rest of us. He promoted chinese martial arts like no other, at that time. That is the point of reference you have to look at the 70's, still a lot of bigotry in the usa, the chinese weren't really shring and open w/ the west. But Bruce was willing , even if it was just for the $, Welcome to America!
Nice chattin
Don

[Chin Chung Cao]

Your correct, you and I have a different prerspective. Your's appear to be based in the negative, is there anyone you like? Personally I find America a pretty fun place to live when you consider the options. As for how far Bruce Lee went in Wing Chun it was never a secret, and as far as I know he never claimed to be a Sifu in that system, so I fail to see your point. I'm not interested in a ****ing contest with you over Bruce Lee. The man's reputation and what he did or did not do, has all been well documented. Do you really feel he was exploited by the media? How so? Bruce Lee was and still is very popular, you can still find article's on him or JKD every month. Is that wrong to give the public what they want? You reall should try and lighten up a bit, life's way to short to waste on something that will be debated long after you and I leave this plane.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Isn't it amazing how many give Bruce lee the credit for brining MA to the west and opening the east for students.

Guess no eastern MA were taught in the west prior to his appearance nor were taught to westerners, hmmm, seem to recall quiet a few names of already renowned western CMA in the 60's.

Maybe a bit of study into the actual chinese & Hong kong movie industry might dispel some of these myths.

Or have names like Pei Pei Cheng and similar been forgotten already, some of those stars were big prior to Bruce Lee and are still big now.

Bruce Lee is who he was, he monopolized on his name and achievements of people that came before him.

Love him or hate him, but don't idolize him and assign achievements that he never did.

[dwid]

I know I'm coming into this rather late, but I'm a little irritated by the bashing the Smith Bagua book always gets on here. I would wager maybe one or two people on this forum have ever even read Smith's original Bagua book. It has been out of print for many years and is pretty expensive when you can find it on ebay or abe-books.

The current edition, by Smith and Pittman is a pale shadow of the original text. I don't know who made the decision to revise it that way or why, but you're all right. It sucks! The original book, however, the one that Smith actually wrote by himself, is actually one of the better books on Bagua that I have found.

[Buddy]

Well I've owned those books since the seventies and everything that isn't Smith or his opinions is ok. His stuff is totally useless. He knows nothing about Gao style Bagua and his demonstration in his book proves it. It's great that he introduced the West to these arts but thirty years later they have only historical value. I won't even comment on Pittman's version. At least his Xingyi book had that old picture of the guy doing bengquan.
Buddy
BTW I bought em for about ten bucks each in Boston's Chinatown.

[GeneChing]

You guys really need to put some perspective on the time period. Both Lee and Smith were revolutionary - they were the first to really put some of this stuff out there. It's all about precedence. Sure, you can nitpick faults, but could you withstand such a test? A better question is, would anyone even bother to apply such a test to you? Have you done anything noteworthy? If so, why isn't this thread about you?

[fragbot]

But I never really found much to be offended with in his books. They're not useful from a technical standpoint, but he certainly writes in an entertaining manner. Hell, some of his stories might even sound true.

I think it's revealing that the original poster breathlessly writes, "he only studied for 10 years. HOW MUCH COULD HE HAVE LEARNED?"

It sounds like he's primarily upset about the author's preference for neijia over weijia. This is kind of twisted.

[GeneChing]

I missed it too and it's my namesake. Some people just like to put down stuff, like all those people who try to disregard Bruce Lee. It gets pretty silly really.

[Buddy]

Sure, you can nitpick faults, but could you withstand such a test? A better question is, would anyone even bother to apply such a test to you? Have you done anything noteworthy? If so, why isn't this thread about you?
Gene,
For a guy with a literary bent you surely must realize that this point is irrelevent. You might ask the same question about anyone critisizing any subject.
While I am more than pleased that Smith wrote his books, he has decided (in his latest tome) that he is the judge and jury of all things he writes about. And his student declared publicly on his website (which he has had the good sense to remove) that he was THE lineage holder in the US with regards to Gao style Baguazhang. Certainly Marcus Brinkman and Tim Cartmell might take issue with that ridiculous statement. Further he described our teacher, Luo Dexiu, as having a mish-mash of techniques and not the complete system. This thread isn't about me or anyone else who posted because it's about someone else. Isn't that obvious?
Buddy

[BAI HE]

You sir I an audacious and rude cur.
You come to this nice mans forum and pull up his dress?

You scoundrel borne of urine!

[brassmonkey]

"And his student declared publicly on his website (which he has had the good sense to remove) that he was THE lineage holder in the US with regards to Gao style Baguazhang. Certainly Marcus Brinkman and Tim Cartmell might take issue with that ridiculous statement. Further he described our teacher, Luo Dexiu, as having a mish-mash of techniques and not the complete system. "

From 1 of his books I believe he states 1 of the Hong brothers stated he was an Lineage heir to Gao style. If you look a the US you have a half dozen to a dozen legimate claims of Chen style lineage holders, doesnt mean 1 is right and the rest is wrong.

[PHILBERT]

*cough*wingchun*cough*

[GeneChing]

buddy - OK, fair enough. My last comment should have been followed by one of those sarcastic smilies like :p . I havent' read Smith's latest book, so I wouldn't be a fair judge, nor have I read his website, or even keep tabs on such things. Given my position, feuds drop in my lap all the time, so I try to avoid it whenever I can. I was speaking solely based on his previous contributions, which I think are worthy as precedent.

bai he - I'm not sure who you're talking about. Who's wearing a dress here? :p

brass monkey - Lineage heirs are such a mess, always. philbert has it right.

philbert - You have it right. ;)

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings...

If we put the effort into analyzing ourselves that we put into analyzing others.. i think we would be better-off..

From my perspective, i honor the contributions made by my predecessors, without which we wouldn't be having these conversations.. whether i agree with ALL of their perspectives is merely a personal issue, the only test that matters is does their contribution enhance my own experience.. personally, i don't care if they learned their stuff from the back of a Rice Krispy box, if it works to my advantage, i have benefitted.. Too much worry about "image", too little care about results ends up in a discussion like this one..

One of my students trained with Robert Smith in the early to mid seventies and says that he was brutally honest but an equally effective teacher that maintained high standards.. sounds reasonable to me.

Listening to people rant about a legend (regardless of qualification) that they have never met or crossed hands with is simply comical.. it is no more than the signature of their own spirit of contradiction.. it is unlikely that CMA would enjoy its popularity without BL's contributions.. he did raise the bar of personal performance and philosophical insight.. Was he the best? unlikely! but, he accomplished more things than most of us can ever hope for.. My mentor says the "best" wouldn't trifle themselves with such nonsense as public displays, you never know how good they are until its too late.. and even then, they disappear into anonymity..

Begrudging someone's popularity or accomplishments is not a pleasant spectacle.. rather, support your own positive contribution to the Arts, lest we appear to be Politicians... I will support that in which i believe, my silence on matters i disfavor is sufficient for me..

Be well..

[jun_erh]

mr tripps got a legitamate bone of contention

[Buddy]

Yeah, but I'm seeing a chiropractor about it.
Buddy

[jun_erh]

another Neil Hamburger (http://www.dragcity.com/bands/hamburger.html) seems t be alot of that going on around here

[PHILBERT]

Originally posted by dwid
I know I'm coming into this rather late, but I'm a little irritated by the bashing the Smith Bagua book always gets on here. I would wager maybe one or two people on this forum have ever even read Smith's original Bagua book. It has been out of print for many years and is pretty expensive when you can find it on ebay or abe-books.

The current edition, by Smith and Pittman is a pale shadow of the original text. I don't know who made the decision to revise it that way or why, but you're all right. It sucks! The original book, however, the one that Smith actually wrote by himself, is actually one of the better books on Bagua that I have found.

I was at the book store today, and I found his Pa Kua book, the original, reprinted. I also found it on Amazon, plus the Hsing-I redone.

Pa-Kua: Chinese Boxing for Fitness & Self- Defense (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1556434391/qid=1075180644/sr=1-7/ref=sr_1_7/102-5853124-3687328?v=glance&s=books)

Hsing-I: Chinese Mind-Body Boxing (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1556434553/qid=1075180644/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-5853124-3687328?v=glance&s=books)

In the books are Robert Smith showing the combat applications of the arts, not Alan Puttnam doing the movements solo.

[GroungJing]

I think that is the book on bagua that people are shagging on this netis his actual first addition.....(I could be wrong)

I personally have nothing but very high accolades for both Mr. Smith and Mr. Pittman. I doubt very much anyone here has actually talked to them. (that dislike them) I have talked with Mr. Pittman several occasions and he has even sent me a couple of cool videos of demo's that he's done. A very skilled Bagua man indeed!

Again I highly respect both.... and I come from the point of view of someone that has actually met one of them.

Course I'm old school...i.e. Yang Chen Fu was legit and Chen Man Ching could actually fight.... heard too many eye witness accounts for me to believe otherwise...

People will talk on this news group...that's why it's here...Doesn't always mean there right.....

[Chin Chung Cao]

I really dont think that Robert Smith need's to be defended by anyone, his past accomplishment's more then speak for themselves. The very theory of yin/yang preclude's Mr. Smith, or anyone of us for that matter, being liked by everyone. Like GroundJing, I'm amazed at the amount of people who would openly criticize someone without any real, first hand knowledge about them. Don't get me wrong, I believe that everyone has the right to disagree. But to disagree just for the sake of disagreeing, without doing the research to base your opinion on, is ludicrous. Then again this is the U.S.A., where we belive everything our goverment tell's us and everything we read. I know and have trained under Mr.Smith and was able to take a class by Mr. Pittman and talk with him over lunch. Both are very warm, open people with nothing to hide. This thread has run long enough and I think it's long overdo to be put to rest. How about it Admin.?

[jun_erh]

chin chung gao- it probably would have died on it's own . "we believe everything the govt tells us" Are you speaking for yourself? Because I wouldn't agree with that. If you had actually read the first post you'd know it was a criticism of his BOOK not him personally. if you had even half a brain you'd know not to take the topic title literally.

"how about it admin?"

you're an arrogent ****.

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Chin Chung Cao
This thread has run long enough and I think it's long overdo to be put to rest. How about it Admin.?

Ay I second this!!!

[Chin Chung Cao]

Sorry Jun_erh, silly me. I suppose that the thread title "Robert Smith Is So Arrogant' could have been misunderstood? Would you concider it a personal attack on you if your name was substituded for R.W. Smith's? Na, you'd never take the topic 'literally" would you. Also check out part two of the original post again. As for people believing eveything their told, I was talking in general term's. Only a few, such as yourself, would take it literally.
But thanks for your input.

[PHILBERT]

Yes, I agree the thread title is very dumb, and the original post was very dumb, however, if you read the first few messages, the thread started out on a lock down and delete, but amazingly it turned into a pretty good discussion. If you want the thread to die, then stop posting. The only main reason I put my post up there (it was already half way down the page) was because the Bagua book was reprinted and I wanted to let people read that it was reprinted. Not every topic has to be locked. If no one posts on this for a few days, it will die naturally. However, I might end up locking it soon.

[BAI HE]

Yes and Cheng Man Ching was God...
I would have been too, had I been Madame Shek's lap dog.

Smith sold a lot of swamp. He's a great writer, such that while his books live on, his claims in "Martial Musings" (to be a "Yin Fu") lineage holder through Hung are pretty funny. As a lineage holder what has he done?

As a writer he's done plenty.

He's seems to be at such odds ends with so many folks in his books, even being so bold as to declare some "Boxer's of the mouth corners".
He certainly never addressed or used his "skills" to rectify what he percieved as slights or righted any wrongs. He also never failed to "slight" others without doing much research. Talk about a mouth boxer. he roundly thrashed a few people with his pen!

Take GM Chang from Shuai Jiao as a starting point. Everyone else raves about this boxer, while one lone voice "Smith" clearly undercuts this man's art and person.

He's respected by people who stumble on to his books for the first time.... that fades though.