Squat or Deadlift?

[Samurai Jack]

Alright, so once again I'm changing up my workout routine. I plan on doing :

Bench Press 10x10x10
Cable Rows 10x10x10
Hammer Curls 10x10x10
Tricep Pressdowns 10x10x10
Wrist Curls 15x10x8

I also want to toss in a single set of Deadlifts for twenty reps using the guidlines set for the "super squats" program. I figure it'll give me similar benifits to the squats program with the additional advantage of a grip/forearm workout. I practice Aikido and Iaido and really need a wrist pump. Essentially I can't do Deadlift and Squats in the same workout 'cause the twenty rep protocol is waaaaaay too demanding.

Any advice against swapping deads for squats? Any advice at all for this program in general? Thanks in advance.

[WinterPalm]

I don't know much about the program on 20 squats but if you're doing wrist curls and deadlifts with a heavy weight, you may want to leave the curls to the end or your grip will be taxed and the deadlifts will be very painful and difficult. Oh... that's what you want, isn't it? Sorry;)

[Samurai Jack]

Well... yeah. I plan on doing the deads before ANY of the other lifts. Actually, I'll be resting for ten minutes or so afterword too. Experience with 20 rep squats has pretty much proven to me that's the only way to go. If you're unfamiliar with the "Super Squats" program, you should check it out. It's put out by Ironmind, and as with all of thier stuff, it's amazingly effective (and amazingly difficult).

[IronFist]

Bench Press 10x10x10


Wait, do you mean 3 sets of 10? Cuz usually "10x10" means ten sets of ten (German Volume Training) so 10x10x10 is like ten sets of ten sets of ten, which is like 1,000 reps, which is either seriously hardcore or seriously stupid (or both!)

I also want to toss in a single set of Deadlifts for twenty reps using the guidlines set for the "super squats" program. I figure it'll give me similar benifits to the squats program with the additional advantage of a grip/forearm workout.

I probably wouldn't do sets of 20 DL because of lower back fatigue. If you want a similar forearm workout try farmer walks maybe.

You gave your workout routine but you didn't say how you're dividing it out for each day.

[Samurai Jack]

"Wait, do you mean 3 sets of 10? Cuz usually "10x10" means ten sets of ten (German Volume Training) so 10x10x10 is like ten sets of ten sets of ten, which is like 1,000 reps, which is either seriously hardcore or seriously stupid (or both!)"

Ha! That's what I get for trying to record routines the way everyone else does! In my workout log, I write it like this (for example):

Bench press 225/240/225 10/10/10

Or three sets of ten with poundages included. Since I go to failure, I actually don't know how many reps I'm gonna do 'til I do 'em, but I'm aiming for ten.

"You gave your workout routine but you didn't say how you're dividing it out for each day."

Okay, like this;

Deadlift 1 set of 20

Superset #1
Bench press 3 sets of 10
Rows 3 sets of 10

Superset #2
Hammer Curls 3 of 10
Tricep cable pressdown 3 of 10

Alternating Forearm Wrist curls (no rest between sets) 15/10/8

Done once per week. I also time myself with a stopwatch and try to reduce the amount of rest between exercises and sets each workout. I give myself thirty minutes for the routine. As my time decreases, I add sets. I add five to ten pounds to each exercise, each workout.

[IronFist]

Okay, like this;

Deadlift 1 set of 20

Superset #1
Bench press 3 sets of 10
Rows 3 sets of 10

Superset #2
Hammer Curls 3 of 10
Tricep cable pressdown 3 of 10

Alternating Forearm Wrist curls (no rest between sets) 15/10/8

Done once per week.

You're doing all of that on one day, and only once per week?

So wait, in your original post you said:
Essentially I can't do Deadlift and Squats in the same workout 'cause the twenty rep protocol is waaaaaay too demanding.

But you don't have any squats listed in your workout at all. So is 20rep DL's the only thing you're going to do for legs?

The 20 rep squat workout is done 2 or 3 times per week. I don't think you'll get much results from anything if you do it only once per week.

[Samurai Jack]

"The 20 rep squat workout is done 2 or 3 times per week."

That's news to me. The author of the book suggests once or twice a week, and that's how I've done it in the past. Coupled with fifteen hours of MA a week, that's all I can manage.

"I don't think you'll get much results from anything if you do it only once per week."

Okay, the twenty rep program is awesome for squats, I started it on your recommendation, and as I stated above, I followed the book's suggestions.

"But you don't have any squats listed in your workout at all. So is 20rep DL's the only thing you're going to do for legs?"

Yes, Deadlifts are all I wanted to do for legs. Dead's and squats essentially work the same muscles right? Or no? Have you done the program differently? What were your results? Do you no longer think it's a good program?

[IronFist]

The 20 rep squat workout is done 2 or 3 times per week."
That's news to me. The author of the book suggests once or twice a week, and that's how I've done it in the past. Coupled with fifteen hours of MA a week, that's all I can manage.

I have the book and I'm pretty sure it is 2 or 3 times a week. When I was doing it it was 3 times per week, but I had to quit after one week cuz it gave me huge headaches.


Okay, the twenty rep program is awesome for squats, I started it on your recommendation, and as I stated above, I followed the book's suggestions.

It is awesome for squats. Everyone who has tried it has liked it, which is why I'm kind of mad that I couldn't finish it.


Yes, Deadlifts are all I wanted to do for legs. Dead's and squats essentially work the same muscles right? Or no?

Hmm. Yes and no. Deads and squats work the same muscles the same way bench and dips work the same muscles. The main differences between deadlifts and squats are:


Deadlifts have no real eccentric portion of the movement. Depending on whose research you believe, this may limit any possible mass gains.
Deadlifts work the grip a lot more than squats due to the nature of the lift
Generally speaking, deadlifts make the lower back do more work
Generally speaking, deadlifts will work the hamstrings harder than squats. (Unless you do rock bottom squats, in which the hamstrings are worked more than in regular squats)


Also, pretty much everyone I've talked to seems to agree that it's generally a bad idea to do high rep deadlifts.


Have you done the program differently? What were your results? Do you no longer think it's a good program?

I did the 20 rep squat program as outlined in the book. I did it 3 days a week. I had to quit after the third workout because the 20 rep squats gave me unbearable headaches at the point where my neck meets my head starting around rep 12 and getting worse and worse until the end. I made sure my breathing, posture, form, etc., was perfect, so I guess my body just doesn't like them. So, I have no real experience with the program. I would say it's a pretty good program for mass based on what other people have told me, tho.

[Samurai Jack]

"Deadlifts have no real eccentric portion of the movement. Depending on whose research you believe, this may limit any possible mass gains."

(In best Gary Coleman voice) Whachoo talkin' 'bout Ironfist ?!? Ahem, sorry... do you care to elaborate on why this may, or may not be an issue?

"Deadlifts work the grip a lot more than squats due to the nature of the lift

Generally speaking, deadlifts make the lower back do more work

Generally speaking, deadlifts will work the hamstrings harder than squats. (Unless you do rock bottom squats, in which the hamstrings are worked more than in regular squats)"

The above three points are exactly why I want to try them.

"Also, pretty much everyone I've talked to seems to agree that it's generally a bad idea to do high rep deadlifts."

Thanks for the advice. My low back is just as vulnerable as anyone's, but I'm willing to commit to trying it out for a month or two. Three if it turns out I really like it.

If not, I'll go back to squats with a stronger back!

[IronFist]

(In best Gary Coleman voice) Whachoo talkin' 'bout Ironfist ?!? Ahem, sorry... do you care to elaborate on why this may, or may not be an issue?

Movements have two portions: concentric and eccentric. Concentric is when the muscle contracts (shortens) against a force, and eccentric is when it lengthens against a force. For the basic example of curls, concentric is when you're curling it up (your biceps is contracting against the weight) and eccentric is when you're lowering it (your biceps is lengthening against the weight).

I said deadlift has no real eccentric portion because you start at the bottom. Look at a squat. First you go down (quads lengthening against the weight) and then you go up (quads contract against the weight). Now let's look at a deadlift. You start at the bottom, so the first part of the movement is concentric (quads contracting to overcome gravity to let you stand up). Now you're at the top of the deadlift. It's generally not a good idea to slowly lower a deadlift, so you just kinda do a controlled drop. The muscles aren't eccentrically contracting against anything cuz you're basically just dropping the weight. You could always lower the weight slowly, which would be an eccentric contraction, but lowering a deadlift slowly is generally not recommended.

Let me know if I didn't explain it well.

[Samurai Jack]

Nope, you explained it very well. I guess I've been doing my deads wrong. I have noticed that the quicker I lower the weight, the easier it is on my back. On the other hand, I get every head in the gym turning when I just let the bar drop, so I guess I've done something sort of in the middle. I guess I could just go with it shouting and cursing like a pro powerlifter. :D

[IronFist]

btw, I just checked the book, and on page 66 it talks about frequency of squatting. He says basically some people can do it 3 times a week, some people can do it twice a week, and some people need to rest 5 or 6 days between each workout so they'd be doing it mostly once per week. So I guess we were both right about frequency.

As for lowering the weight when you DL, there are some people that do a controlled descent, I've just always been told not to. I bet you Ford would know more about the pros and cons of doing it each way. But when I DL, I lower it very fast and it makes a loud crash. And anyone who looks at me funny can bite me cuz chances are they're just doing curls in the squat rack anyway. :D

Post your results, tho.