xingyi fighting clip

[SevenStar]

fighting (http://www.memphisclubscene.com/NgvsChan.WMV)

[cerebus]

Actually that's a Tibetan White Crane vs Wu style Tai Chi clip. The older guy (the stocky one with the moustache) is Wu Gong Yee, the grandmaster at the time of Wu style Tai Chi. The other guy is Chan Hak Fu of Tibetan White Crane. This match took place in the early 50s.

[SevenStar]

my bad. My friend sent it to me saying it was an XY clip.

[old jong]

What!....No wing girls?....;)

[Oso]

oh, that one...did RD send it to you? :D

[Royal Dragon]

What? Why would you assume "I" sent it to him??

[Oso]

Why, as an example of good kung fu, of course:D

[Christopher M]

They're not doing kungfu, they're doing BJJ. I saw a butt scoot.

[Christopher M]

Xingyi fighting clip (http://www.blacktaoist.com/Beng%20applic.html)

Xingyi fighting clip (http://www.blacktaoist.com/Beng%20Chuan%202.html)

From here (http://www.blacktaoist.com/Bagua%20menu%20applications.html).

[Oso]

maybe, but I think it was more of a Japanese style of jujitsu but scoot.

sure didn't look much like xingyi or tai chi or TWC.

[SevenStar]

this was on that site chris posted:

http://www.blacktaoist.com/Novell%20quicktime%20movies.html/BaGua%20throwing.html

it looks like something I've seen in SC - kao.

as for the clips you posted, nice agressiveness. The only thing I didn't like was how low their hands were.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by SevenStar
it looks like something I've seen in SC - kao.

And like gedan ate (http://www.tomiki.org/kata_animated_atemi.html) in tomiki aikido and kenjit siko in silat.


The only thing I didn't like was how low their hands were.

The lead hand is usually around face height in xingyi/bagua. But it's often a different approach than a standard boxing guard. The lead hand is often quite extended, as you can see in the clip, and this can be used for range and sensitivity, allowing an attack to pass the extended hand and so using the elbow and forearm to defend. The rear hand is often much lower, and can help defend shoots and kicks, as well as setting it up so that raising it can be used to open someone up or take a position of control (ie. rather than having it raised already).

[yenhoi]

kinda like a "cowbell" no?

:confused:

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Christopher M


And like gedan ate (http://www.tomiki.org/kata_animated_atemi.html) in tomiki aikido and kenjit siko in silat.


doesn't kinjit have more of a downwards energy to it, like you are sending them down and backward over your leg?

Talk about this on on the ultimate grappling thread.

[Christopher M]

Yeah... but there's a kenjit variation that is more extension than compression, so looks more like these... I forget what it's called though. :p

What do you mean, yenhoi?

[Merryprankster]

Yep! A right cross IS a powerful technique :D

[David Jamieson]

That clip is getting beaten to death all over the place.

THey should've never made that. :D

It's a terrible example of kungfu.

One guy was telling me that they were both so restricted by their local laws and the rules of engagement that neither of them could really do anything but the hopping about and flailing that you see in that clip.

It really is a poor showing by both isn't it? It's too bad. It should'nt have been posted as an example of a kungfu fight. It should've been posted as an example of a bad kungfu fight restricted by local laws and rules. lol.

cheers

[chen zhen]

thanks for the clip, i've been looking all over the place for it.

[SevenStar]

What all was restricted?

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Yep! A right cross IS a powerful technique

:p There was actually an article in I think JAMA that put the five xingyi strikes side by side with the comparable boxing strikes. I dunno if it's online anywhere...

[Archangel]

Those guys were Grand Masters?

[Kristoffer]

Wow that sucked.

[chen zhen]

Originally posted by Christopher M


:p There was actually an article in I think JAMA that put the five xingyi strikes side by side with the comparable boxing strikes. I dunno if it's online anywhere...

please find it!:)

[SevenStar]

I think I remember that article - someone posted a link here a while back.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Kung Lek

It really is a poor showing by both isn't it? It's too bad. It should'nt have been posted as an example of a kungfu fight. It should've been posted as an example of a bad kungfu fight restricted by local laws and rules. lol.

cheers

There were local laws stating that the hands had to be kept by the waist when not in use and punches thrown without use of the waist? ;)

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. No. Actually the rules disallowed kicks, throws, takedowns, knees, elbows & striking below the waist. Basically a kung fu match fought with boxing rules. Also this was the early 50s. Freesparring in general and full contact sparring in particular were seldom practiced by Traditional Chinese MA practitioners of the time. This was very likely the first time Wu Gong Yee had ever fought in any freestyle manner (as opposed to 2-person drills and push hands). As for Chan Hak Fu, yes the Tibetan White Crane system (as I've witnessed in various demos) has a number of "guard" positions where the hands are held low. Nonetheless the lack of full contact sparring experience was very evident. I have to give them both points for having the guts to fight a full contact bare knuckle match though, they both showed fighting spirit even if they didn't show very good technique (Wu Gong Yee was in his 50s at the time and accepted the challenge of a much younger opponent. Chan Hak Fu, for his part, had the balls to challenge a known "grandmaster" when that title was enough to deter most challengers.).

[SifuAbel]

"Freesparring in general and full contact sparring in particular were seldom practiced by Traditional Chinese MA practitioners of the time. "

Not true. I'm not going to bother with this. it s a non-issue.

This clip was circulated 15 years ago and was panned openly by the CMA community.

[cerebus]

Hey Abel. Don't take off so quickly. If I'm mistaken about something, I'd like to get the details. Which CMA schools were known for full contact sparring in the early 50s (I'm referring to sparring in training, not fighting leitai or challenge matches)? I'm not saying no one did so, I'm just saying that across-the-board it wasn't a standard practice in most Kung Fu schools (or so I've always been given to understand).

[Chang Style Novice]

"the rules disallowed kicks"

There are kicks in the clip. Lame ones, to be sure, but they are there.

So WTF are you talking about?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by cerebus
This was very likely the first time Wu Gong Yee had ever fought in any freestyle manner (as opposed to 2-person drills and push hands).

How can one be a grandmaster without ever even fighting?

[cerebus]

Hello CSN, a good day to you too. Yes there are kicks in the match, no they were not allowed. Seems that when a couple guys without alot of experience fighting challenge matches have a go at each other, they occasionally get carried away and forget they aren't supposed to do something. There apparently was some discussion about the rules violation afterwards but it didn't really amount to much. That's WTF I'm talking about. :D

[cerebus]

"How can one be a grandmaster without ever even fighting?"
The lineage is passed down from the father to the son, that's how. And I'm not guaranteeing that he had never fought before, just that in many years of MA research (I like MA history :D ) I've never heard of him having fought any matches previous to this one and none of the known Wu Tai Chi training methods that I've been able to find out about mention anything about freesparring. Later. ;)

[Chang Style Novice]

Well, nothing I saw there amounted to much, so at least it's consistent in that way.

[cerebus]

No arguments here. :p

[IronFist]

Ok, first of all, there should be a law against making video clips where you can't control the position of the clip with the scroll bar. I hate not being able to control where it is, not being able to replay part of it, or having to sit through the whole thing if I just want to see part of it in the middle. Boooooo.

Second of all, that one guy really likes the "hammer strike" doesn't he? I call it the "hammer strike" cuz it looks like he's hammering something. He brings his hand way band and then smashes downward with it.

Thirdly, why'd they keep their hands by their sides?

Fourth, what's up with that two handed overhead strike the one guy lead with?

It's cool if the one guy was in his 50's, but I think a boxer would have taken both of them at the same time.

[backbreaker]

So do I . This clip makes you question whoever said 1 persom can't beat 2:D

[fa_jing]

It's really cool to throw punches that miss by one foot or more.

[cerebus]

Heh, heh, yeah it looks funny to us watching safely from our computer screens but...how many bare knuckle challenge matches have YOU fought recently? :D

[Daredevil]

I'd fight both of them. At the same time.

=)

[cerebus]

Uh huh.:D

[Nick]

If they fight with their hands down by their waists while standing punching range, I'd definitely fight them.

Later...

[cerebus]

Heh, heh, heh. Well...one's dead, the other is in his 80s (or 90s). Better mail him your challenge soon before he passes away.:D :D

[Royal Dragon]

On the Hsing I clips, how come none of Hsing I's principals seem to be present?

[Brad]

Which CMA schools were known for full contact sparring in the early 50s (I'm referring to sparring in training, not fighting leitai or challenge matches)? I'm not saying no one did so, I'm just saying that across-the-board it wasn't a standard practice in most Kung Fu schools (or so I've always been given to understand).
At least one of my teacher's schools did. He's also mentioned some kind of weapons sparring that they used to do too. This was on the mainland though. I don't know how it was elsewhere.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
On the Hsing I clips, how come none of Hsing I's principals seem to be present?

I wasn't aware you trained in xingyi.

[Unmatchable]

Interesting you mention sparring because on shenwu Brian Kennedy wrote:

Yes, contact sparring was part of Ming and Qing era Chinese martial arts. And yes, the Chinese (even back in the Ming era) have enough brains to invent protective gear. Let me quote myself from my wife and I's upcoming book. This quote is in reference to a Chinese martial arts training manual called Record of Arms and the timeframe is about 1620. The person named Shi was the teacher of the author of the book Record of Arms. Here is the quote:

"One of Shi's instructional methods was to ask his students to wrap their torsos with paper and bamboo, and then to wrap another layer of leather on top, as a form of protective gear. The students then practiced attacking each other with moderately hard contact. When Shi taught, he taught orally and if the students did not perform the movement correctly then he would not teach them the next movement. This approach was very common among traditional teachers. Shi was also very keen on having his students understand how the techniques should be used in real life; thus the full contact approach."

Someone else wrote:

iirc from Draeger and Smith, old-school sparring invloved a lot of body contact, not much to the head. Plus throws, chin na etc depending on the style. Striking seems to have always been the skill that is hardest to play with.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by sc_guy
The SC - kao would have the right leg "inner hook" the opponent's back leg.

Like kuo bu in Cheng style bagua?

[cerebus]

Unmatchable, thanks for the info. I'm sure there have always been CMA practitioners who sparred with various levels of contact, but was it the usual practice for MOST CMA? From any of the descriptions I've read of the "standard" for training, what was usually involved was basics, forms & 2-person drills. Unfortunately, I don't have access to any of my books (they're on East coast, I'm on West coast) so I'm unable to search for the specific references. Dealing even more specifically with Tibetan White Crane and Wu style Tai Chi (the arts practiced by the men in the very first fight clip) was contact sparring standard practice at the time for these schools? I admit I've only spoken to a few practitioners of these styles but none of them regarded contact sparring as being a traditional part of their arts' curriculum. Sorry if I was mistaken. :confused:

[Ford Prefect]

LMFAO @ that clip! There's more skill in a Bum Fights video.

[rogue]

Wow those guys really sucked. No balance, no control, no targeting, no power, no smarts. I hope their mothers smacked them silly for wasting their piano lesson money on those Kung Fu lessons.

[fa_jing]

Interesting, last night I was talking to one of Wah Lun Choi's long-term students, and he was talking about the sparring at the school. Aparently back in the old Chinatown school, they started sparring right away and sparred hard all of the time. Less time was spent on the forms, and more on punching wallbags filled with metal shot or kicking a wooden post set in concrete with round kicks for up to half an hour. It was most important for the students to be able to fight, right away. Now Choi's school is finding much success catering to the "internal" crowd, and less action goes down at the kwoon. Apparently there still is sparring with various kinds of gloves, but the TaiJi guys almost never spar, the Bagua guys a little more, and the Xing-Yi guys like to spar a lot, but still no where near as much as they used to spar back in the day. That's what I heard.

[norther practitioner]

It really is a poor showing by both isn't it? It's too bad. It should'nt have been posted as an example of a kungfu fight. It should've been posted as an example of a bad kungfu fight restricted by local laws and rules. lol.

It wasn't in NY was it?:D :p

[Royal Dragon]

I wasn't aware you trained in xingyi.

Reply]
I don't, but I've seen enough of it to know Hsing I players don't go charging in on thier tippie toes, throwing wild punches.

[Royal Dragon]

fa_jing,
What are his Li hu, Ba fa classes like now?

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Royal Dragon
I don't, but I've seen enough of it to know Hsing I players don't go charging in on thier tippie toes, throwing wild punches.

I hope you understand if I put BT's judgment on this issue ahead of yours since a) he trains xingyi, b) he teaches xingyi, c) you don't do either, d) it worked pretty good, and e) I don't think xingyi is so simple, nor you so brilliant, that you can pick it up via passive observation such that you can make this judgement.