speaking of jhana....

[blooming lotus]

It is a well known concept that during thhe process of "doing" the eight jhanas you access paranormal powers. One of these paranormal powers are past life recall...bearing in mind that sanity is protected by freedom of religious practice .......what is your experience?

[Buddy]

make mine a...cheeseburger

[blooming lotus]

Do you have ANYTHING knowledgable to say??.........or is it all just cute jabber

[Buddy]

Cute, perhaps but not inane drooling like your post dude.

[blooming lotus]

let me guess, westerner right?

[blooming lotus]

I know that alot of people won't talk about these things, even though they are common "secret" concepts and differentiate all the greats by their knowledge and interpretation of these intimate concepts. I figure that the reasons for people not wanting to discuss this is either
A. That they fear public rejection/humiliation in exposing there beliefs and ideas on something so "out-of-the ordinary" to the average western mind

OR

B. That most people who ride these boards are set in western societal ideas and mindsets and have a hard time understanding and an even harder time literating.

I donb't care if you think I'm stupid..because I have my IQ results and I know the knowledge I have gathered. If it encpourages someone to talk about it or even explore it in their own time...I'm good with what you need to say.

Peace and knowledge folks

[dwid]

That most people who ride these boards are set in western societal ideas and mindsets and have a hard time understanding and an even harder time literating.

Western paradigms are no less valid than eastern ones. They're just less popular in some circles.

The fact is that nobody can prove that they have experienced a past life or whatever. Maybe the reason people don't often talk about this stuff is:

a) The experience is private and its only value is what it can contribute to your personal understanding of yourself and the world around you. All it can offer to others is an anecdote to add to what they've already concluded, which, depending on what side of the fence you're on is either 1> spiritual experience is the best thing since sliced bread or 2> "spiritual" types are a bunch of kooks.

b) People may doubt their own experience because such experiences are usually in a gray area, and maybe not so absolutely and unquestionably real as, say, a ham sandwich.

c) Experiences like this really are not so common, so there aren't that many people to relate them.

d) An ideal common to many spiritual traditions that address such experiences is that these things are distractions that should be ignored and transcended. A person with such beliefs would not want to discuss the experience because he or she would want to let it go.

The point is that your perspective might be slightly more open than Buddy, but you're still limiting yourself to a very small set of possible explanations which are clearly anchored in a belief system that is not much less limiting than Buddy's is. Also, you need to have a sense of humor about this stuff. One of the reasons people into spirituality and what-not take so much flak is because they take everything so **** seriously. Chill out. Whatever unifying force there is in the universe, I'm sure it has a pretty good sense of humor.

Just look at the platypus.

:D

[blooming lotus]

for the uncontrolled there is no wisdom, nor for the uncontrolled is there the power of concentration...
- Bhagvad Gita

Jahanas = levels of consiousness/awareness of which concentration is paramount

[dwid]

What the hell are you trying to say?

Being vague and using esoteric phrases doesn't make for a very worthwhile discussion.

Try communicating with your own words.
:)

[blooming lotus]

.........and this folks is exactly my point. It's no great secret that westerners intepret life differently. Unless a student of MA, alot of people grown within western psychies are not even aware of the existence of Qi.

Life is lived at a whole other level of perception. Then there levels of perception associated with qi understanding and interperation. I am not going to spend too much time convincing you but be aware that the the conscious and subconscious mind has many layers of function and there will always be more to discover

...after all it's common knowledge that the average human uses only 5% of their brain

...meditation and concentration ideally puts us in a theta or better state of brain frequency, opens new nueral-pathways and permits access to new levels of consciosness and awareness alah jahna (8 levels of conciousness/awareness). This new awareness is directly applicable to all facets of life ....not excluding health and both internal and external application of ma.

I may sound to be raving at the moment...but these are my thoughts. ...also know that there is a concept called transcendental intellect..ie, that when you reach certain levels of jahana or awareness intellect is transcended and irrevelant...

hope it helps :)

[Ka]

Sounds like you are just using a standard so that you can say "I"m better then you"
Typical setting up of a Diacotomy.Nothing "Eastern" :rolleyes: about that.

[vikinggoddess]

BL,

I think that intellect can be transcended and new levels of perception reached during and after traumatic events. You know, like when someone close to you dies or is dying unexpectedly and your whole really breaks down and your perception of time changes. Reasoning can't adequately explain why something had to happen and that it did and it can't be changed. Some people will just automatically be thrown into other levels of awareness when this happens and have access to forgotten memories and hidden truths, because what is happening isn't a part of normal reality. I don't think that means that they are losing thier mind or ignoring their intellect or falling back on God/religion/etc out of fear, either.

[Buddy]

I think raving is a good word for your posts. So far it's all been pretty much bushwa. Please tell me what chocolate tastes like. Sweet? oh it tastes like honey. No? But one taste and I know.
Buddy

[vikinggoddess]

Buddy don't you have something better to do, like maybe knocking some ****s loudly in a restaurant or library?

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Ka
Sounds like you are just using a standard so that you can say "I"m better then you"
Typical setting up of a Diacotomy.Nothing "Eastern" :rolleyes: about that.

no no...I don't believe in that whole I'm better than than you attitude, and I appologise if that's the way I come off. Viking Goddess makes a good point about traumatic experience being a precursor to alternate states of awareness and like I have said on other threads previously, I have seen death up close many timesthe first when I was 3 and was pushed into a glass china cbinet which shattered through my body, nearly bleeding to death as well as having many vital internal bits come close to ceasing function. I have also had many other such experiences since and I guess I just live in a whole other state of awareness. Shallow just is no longer part of my psychie I suppose. No reflection on anyone else because there are many ways to enlightenment, trauma is one.

[dwid]

.........and this folks is exactly my point. It's no great secret that westerners intepret life differently. Unless a student of MA, alot of people grown within western psychies are not even aware of the existence of Qi.

Lots of MA students are not "aware" of the existence of qi either. For that matter, many people with a so-called eastern perspective do not believe in qi.

You're projecting a particular set of spiritual beliefs that you have onto a whole group of people. People often do this with Native Americans as well. I guess it makes a set of beliefs seem more valid if you can think of them as an integral part of an entire culture. I respect your spiritual beliefs, but I do not share them.

[bodhitree]

blooming
don't seperate self from others, however hear their critique. A useful message can come from a scource that may be saying it to be 'hurtful' ect.

[Buddy]

OK here we go...
dwid said: "The point is that your perspective might be slightly more open than Buddy, but you're still limiting yourself to a very small set of possible explanations which are clearly anchored in a belief system that is not much less limiting than Buddy's is."

I'm certain that you could not possibly interpret my perspective or belief system by my comments.


Blooming said: "I know that alot of people won't talk about these things, even though they are common "secret" concepts and differentiate all the greats by their knowledge and interpretation of these intimate concepts. I figure that the reasons for people not wanting to discuss this is either
A. That they fear public rejection/humiliation in exposing there beliefs and ideas on something so "out-of-the ordinary" to the average western mind OR
B. That most people who ride these boards are set in western societal ideas and mindsets and have a hard time understanding and an even harder time literating.

You start with the phrase "I know" but you don't really know. It's an opinion. Everything that follows is based on that opinion. SO you set up an imaginary situation and preceed to rail against it.

dwid writes:Western paradigms are no less valid than eastern ones. They're just less popular in some circles.

The fact is that nobody can prove that they have experienced a past life or whatever. Maybe the reason people don't often talk about this stuff is:

a) The experience is private and its only value is what it can contribute to your personal understanding of yourself and the world around you. All it can offer to others is an anecdote to add to what they've already concluded, which, depending on what side of the fence you're on is either 1> spiritual experience is the best thing since sliced bread or 2> "spiritual" types are a bunch of kooks.

Which I think is, as we say here in the West, on the money.

and he writes:
What the hell are you trying to say?
Being vague and using esoteric phrases doesn't make for a very worthwhile discussion.

To which I would reply, "Here, here."

Bloomer writes:and this folks is exactly my point. It's no great secret that westerners intepret life differently. Unless a student of MA, alot of people grown within western psychies are not even aware of the existence of Qi.

Just where does East end and West begin. And that's an awfully broad brush you paint half the world with. Or did you just mean Americans? Further I think you'll find a large number of people with no connection to the martial arts that know of the theory of qi. It's existance, however, is still up for debate.

Vikinggoddess writes:Buddy don't you have something better to do, like maybe knocking some ****s loudly in a restaurant or library?

How do I respond to someone calling themselves a goddess? I don't know what ****s are darlin so I won't be knocking them anytime soon. I'm not certain why you consider death and trauma outside of normal events but I cringe at the type of holier than thou crap I hear Bloomy spout. Because I use humor or coarse language you think I have had no "unusual" experiences? They only seemed unusual at the time. The day still begins at sunrise so it wasn't that big of a deal.

Bloom writes:I have seen death up close many timesthe first when I was 3 and was pushed into a glass china cbinet which shattered through my body, nearly bleeding to death as well as having many vital internal bits come close to ceasing function. I have also had many other such experiences since and I guess I just live in a whole other state of awareness. Shallow just is no longer part of my psychie I suppose. No reflection on anyone else because there are many ways to enlightenment, trauma is one.

No, it isn't. Nor are the events you described unusual. I had hepititus at 5 and cancer at 29. Neither did much for the evloution of conciousness.

dwid writes:You're projecting a particular set of spiritual beliefs that you have onto a whole group of people. People often do this with Native Americans as well. I guess it makes a set of beliefs seem more valid if you can think of them as an integral part of an entire culture. I respect your spiritual beliefs, but I do not share them.

I haven't heard anything of his beliefs so I can't say if there is anything to respect. But you're doing fine without me dwid. I can just say I agree with you and let it go.
Ta

[blooming lotus]

Buddy..Pls don't procede to tell me qwhat I think...It tells a story of your own state of thought.

2nd, No one can prove Blah blah blah past life experinces...well that's exactly my point- ther IS no correct answer there and this is about the sharing and not the proving...which is I guess why the peeps are reluctant to go there. And I DO know from much cumlative group sharings and personal experiences that people find it hard to talk about and/ or share these experiences, but thanks for comments there.

As for thje existence of qi still being in debate...I hate to break to both you and Dwid, but this "esoteric" theory is now science that has been proven. Qi is a force of energy (directly correlative to life force, wellness and longevity) that nasa funded research, bigger than the /uS defense budget, has created the technology to now measure. This is no theory, it is scientific fact...get with the proggram on that one, and you will sincerly find yourself a step ahead of your previous knowledge. Anyhoo...according to this very expensive research under the term nano technology, all life, particulary human, absobs and omits this rre (resonant remnant energy) a particular frequency as a state of life. It is at this stage only measureable at a degree of one hundred thousandth of the width of human hair, however, that is limited only by the tools in which we have to measure it. I encourage you to do a search on this technological revoloution. Quorumglobal.com is a good place to start, then perhaps, nstc and nanotechnology in general.

Bodhitree..

You are absolutely correct in saying that there are folks out there with no ma connection and are still in agreeance of the existence of qi. It probably was a slightly sweeping remark on my part, but that would be time to explain and not neccessarily a generalisation I would care to stand on.

bod...you also said that "a useful message can come from a source that may be saying to be hurtful"..well considewring the ego I'm perceived to be having , I say back at chya bud ;)

In summary, I preclude to tell no-one what to believe or how to percieve their world, but at the same time, I rarely will have a qualm about sharing my knowlege...and double for feedback and intellegent ( or at least mature) exchange.

oh, yah...about death and trauma precursing enilghtenment, I WILL stand on that one however, have you ever heard of trauma enduced amnesia? Perhaps you just don't want to remember your experience there because it pains, or maybe the experience wasn't half as close to death as you may have lead yourself to believe...then again, it could be something else altougether...I have no idea why some of you think I proclaim to have the answers to the universe..LOL at sweetness of naievty...just dont be dissappointed I come up not knowing either ...just a chick ok ;)

[dwid]

As for thje existence of qi still being in debate...I hate to break to both you and Dwid, but this "esoteric" theory is now science that has been proven. Qi is a force of energy (directly correlative to life force, wellness and longevity) that nasa funded research, bigger than the /uS defense budget, has created the technology to now measure. This is no theory, it is scientific fact...get with the proggram on that one, and you will sincerly find yourself a step ahead of your previous knowledge. Anyhoo...according to this very expensive research under the term nano technology, all life, particulary human, absobs and omits this rre (resonant remnant energy) a particular frequency as a state of life. It is at this stage only measureable at a degree of one hundred thousandth of the width of human hair, however, that is limited only by the tools in which we have to measure it. I encourage you to do a search on this technological revoloution. Quorumglobal.com is a good place to start, then perhaps, nstc and nanotechnology in general.

Okay, finally something concrete. I can see now that you're a "true believer." You're buying into the qi equivalent to one of those late night infomercials. Learn a little about critical thinking and take another look at the so-called research you're putting so much faith in. Quorumglobal.com is a joke. Just because they say something has been proven doesn't make it so. Where is the data? If so much time and money has been put into this research, why has none of it appeared in any peer-reviewed scholarly journals.

[blooming lotus]

Arrogance meets ignorance ha.
That is why I tell you to do a search on either nanotechnology, the nstc or nasa r&d budget ......so what are you saying of all thefolks who have cultivated, believedin andharnessed qi for thousands of years.

I hate to get personal, but you're argumentive jerk.... but don't take it too harsahly because apparently you're in good company....

seriously not having any more of this stupid argument. Whatever you want to believe dude is just fine with me. ....

I have no personal concern whether you or not believe or use qi conciously.

how did I know you would jump all over that? Hate to be predictable :rolleyes:

[dwid]

Just some general observations/ideas based on comments in this and other threads that I wish people would accept and understand.

1) The internet is not the be-all end-all resource for information on every subject. In fact, it is primarily only used as an exhaustive resource by the lazy and the careless. If you like to actually weigh evidence or use the higher processes of the brain, this necessitates going to sources of information with a little bit of academic rigor, i.e. sources that describe their research and provide the means for you to check up on the validity of facts.

2) If you have a really thin skin, either avoid discussing anything controversial or get over yourself. Truly enlightened individuals (I've met a few in my day) aren't afraid to openly discuss their views without resorting to personal attacks.

3) There are articles of faith and then there are facts. Some facts are more factual than others, and some things require more faith than others, but things that cannot be scientifically verified/falsified, such as the hand of God in healing a sick child or the power of qi, are matters of faith. You can believe in these things or not, but your anecdotal evidence is not proof one way or the other, and it is unwarranted to attack people for not believing in what you do. Perhaps some day a crazy quantum physicist or something will come up with a model for qi (or God) that can be studied scientifically. Until then, all we can do is conjecture. For the record, I've encountered some weird stuff myself in the martial arts. Was it qi? Who knows? Labeling a thing doesn't necessarily help us understand it better.

Anyway, glad to get this off my chest, though I'm sure it won't change much in terms of discussions, and we'll be arguing over the same basic assumptions in no time.

:D

[blooming lotus]

no one is attacking anyone here as far I'm concerned. 2nd, the internet is a great rescource for much accurate information (although you're right...there is alot of unfounded rubbish)....hello 21st century...and information technology.

lastly dude...rather than avoiding discussion (which sometimes is a pointless exercise) ...some of us just have nothing further to prove or gain...

and lastly, qi is nothing odd but just a natural phrenomena of life. take it or leave it ;)

Peace :p

[Buddy]

No, qi is a theoretical construct, take it or leave it.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Qi.. is a "word".. it points to someone's experience(s).. Those experiences may be direct or beliefs in the "words" of someone else... Aside from the restrictions of language, it is evident that some people have had experiences that elude measurement or quantification and produce results that are not reproducible by everyone.. For those whom are unable to reproduce such experiences it is easier to deny the validity of the experience than it is to admit they lack the tools to reproduce a similar experience.. One of the great conundrums is the analogy that we cannot use our right hand to lift our right hand, which is to say that the concept of Qi is so close to the very nature of our being that we cannot easily examine it objectively.. you cannot use a ruler to measure itself..

If, as i do, we assume that Qi is our essential life-force, then, at some level, we cannot understand it because we ARE it.. I do not sense that Qi is seperate from the experience of being human.. What i do suppose, is that Qi, as used in these discussions, is a particular aspect of the Qi that animates our being.. what i sense is that consciousness uses energy (Qi) to construct a being through which it can manifest its consciousness.. As Martial Artists we experience a certain aspect of that energy (Qi) relative to certain preferences, notions and beliefs.. and rely on the limitations of language and measurements to communicate our perception of that experience.. For those whom the concept of Qi remains invalid due to its intangible properties, i suggest that they examine their experiences and beliefs carefully.. Neither i nor the scientific community understand the nature of consciousness, yet.. who can deny it exists? We will either exist within the structure of limitations presumed by science, or we will accept our experiences at face value and accept the measurement as a descriptor of that experience.. Remember, i can study all the data regarding the properties of water, yet.. none of that data will quench my thirst.. only a direct experience with water can do that.. It is presumptive to assert that an experience that exceeds the current level of technology's ability to quantify is invalid..

No two people interpret the same experience exactly the same way.. and to complicate matters, we use the limitations of language to compare these differing interpretations.. It is my humble suggestion that we "live and let live", avoid the arguement of real or not real.. there are no answers in denial..

Be well..

[blooming lotus]

the original question was not about whether or not qi existed, it was regaurding a request to have some of others experiences shared regarding internal practice. And dwid...self check ha? Who's unwilling to share and so obviously therefoe unenlightened? gimme a break ok...maybe next time, you could actually read the argument.....

or continue as you do ......

peace ;)

[dwid]

the original question was not about whether or not qi existed, it was regaurding a request to have some of others experiences shared regarding internal practice. And dwid...self check ha? Who's unwilling to share and so obviously therefoe unenlightened? gimme a break ok...maybe next time, you could actually read the argument.....

Discussing with you would be much easier if you practiced basic grammar and communicated in complete thoughts.

[Former castleva]

I second pretty much everything Dwid said.
Hey Dwid,perhaps you have an extra copy of that "Demon haunted world" to hand out for those in the know? :D

Well,BL,I think you could reveal something about these paranormal powers which,according to you,can be gained ("well-known",you posit).

Perhaps we´re done with the discussion but personal experiences aside (which is what you are now referring to),the way you started your thread will likely draw attention,know what I mean?
So,I cannot comment on any personal experiences and neither do I wish to draw fire but but considering the nature of your thread,there´s a considerable chance that you´ll be,say,challenged so to speak.
And if you answer like this;

I hate to get personal, but you're argumentive jerk....
It might not work.

[dwid]

Thanks FC,

I envy your avatar by the way.

Columbo is awesome.

[Former castleva]

Thanks to you.
(Falk was also good in "Lost World").

I feel like I should summarize my last post;
I´m simply suggesting that the author,you (BL) are making certain positive statements about debatable issues.

[blooming lotus]

I am positive about my experience..and fire shmire....|I'll share anyway :rolleyes:...oh and on the grammar...go figure that I teach english :D