Kung fu Tournaments with very little kung fu fighting

[harkfu]

In 2003 I have been to no less than 3 all kung fu tourna ments in prep for entering this coming year.
So you will understand when I ask why I see more kickboxing than kung fu at all of these tournaments. In some cases you can even tell that the people go to kung fu schools.
Before everyone responds this for the schools that do not use their kungfu in tournaments not the schools that do.:)

[SifuAbel]

"using kung fu" is very tricky term.

To me, if they are clean, crisp , accurate, display good footwork and good defense then they are using thier kung fu.

Kung fu does contain punching and kicking, so its not accurate to say that if a punch or a kick happens then its not kung fu.

[Brad]

In fighting competition people do what they have to to win, and what you look like isn't that important. The rules/equipment often dictate what a fight looks like too. The winning techniques themselves are going to look basically the same no matter what "style" you come from due to trial and error finding out what's works best against the type of competition you'll be up against. So you're not going to see to many style specific techniques. It's all going to come down to the basics that are common goals of all martial arts.

[IronFist]

Ok but if someone comes from like a Snake style school and then they fight with kickboxing techniques, you can't really say they're using their "kung fu" now can you?

[SifuAbel]

Only if their striking has the same spring and thier denfense is similar.

" It doesn't matter what the spear head is as long as the wood is good."

So you substitute your open hand snake strike (Which BTW is really wu-shu-y) , for a snake punch (which is much more traditional and more common)

The ulmimate question to the observer would be, could you recognized a style specific move if you saw it?

Could you tell if the guy in the gloves had that influence in the way he punched?

[rogue]

Hi KKM.

[Chang Style Novice]

I really should add this to the list of bannable offenses...

[rogue]

:D :D :D

[fa_jing]

I see very few kickboxing techniques from straight-up KungFu schools. Lots of punching and kicking, some of it wild even, but rarely do I see the classic kickboxing combinations and structure, be it Muy Thai or American kickboxing. I'm not trying to be funny.

Remember that if you take a style that is street or battle-oriented, and has a big conceptual component, put it into a ring, and it looks pretty similar to the style that was developed in the ring for the ring, it is a strong validation of the concepts put forth by the art.

The ways I sees it

[harkfu]

Kick boxing- Using the classical or typical boxing hand positions(John L. Sullivan, Jack Johnson, and Joe Lewis) together with kicks.( front, back, side and round):)

[X_plosion]

Perhaps the venue being a tournament is the key here. ;)

Once a tournament has been around for some time and maintains consistency in its rulebook, then, sooner or later, many participants will be favoring techniques that can help them rack up the most points.

How desirable this is will depend on your point of view, but there it is. This happens in other sports too. In Arnis tournaments, many use a strike that gets them a core, but wouldn't count for much in combat. In Karate, when the "Shobu Ippon" rule was in vogue, the hand technique of choice was almost exclusively the reverse punch.

In short, people tend to try to use what's most effective within the rules. These techniques then become common to all in the competition.

[truewrestler]

The competitors and their schools has ****ty kung-fu so they must degrade to kickboxing and wrestling

[stimulant]

It's all down to 3 main factors....

1) rules & equipment (gloves etc)

2) training

3) skill



fighting with boxing gloves on changes things dramatically in terms of type of power used and technique

I been to some very big competitions....only ever see 3 people at most (if I'm lucky) fighting who you look at and know they are fighting the same way they learn and train.

True skill is about fighting in the style you learn even when restrictions like rules and gloves etc and imposed.

[Pork Chop]

Was watching ESPN this past weekend.
Saw lots of inferior K1 kickboxing and even some kickboxing and wrestling looking san shew.
The people moved so slow and looked so sloppy.
Their technique was all muscle, no internal.
I don't know what kept me watching through the marathon of fights- maybe it was seeing the egotistical fighters, or my barbaric lust for blood.
I mean I know that those guys would be useless in the street, because in a streetfight there are no rules (you can even eye poke) and you don't need any conditioning (because the fights are too short); but I couldn't help but watch those lumbering oafs bleed.

Eventually my blood orgy came to an end and my kung fu spirit was saved because after the low class fight between Remy Bonjasky and Mike MacDonald came the 2003 US Open Championships.

Those warriors from Team Paul Mitchell were amazing. Their traditional forms, while less flashy than their open routines, showed me that they are true killers. No K1 fighter would be able to stand up to any of those guys on Team Paul Mitchell. Their internal power, their technique, and their pure ferocity would KO those K1 guys and make them poop their pants.

Even the nontraditional team: XMA, had a few standouts. The kid with the blue hair showed strong chi. Ernesto Hoost better watch out, he may be able to get off one round kick on those kids, maybe even one to the head; but I don't think he has the balance to fire of 10 hgih round kicks continuously.






On a serious note, I can't believe I used to take threads like this seriously, and take the other side, no less.
Those sport kuhraddy kids make me realize I want nothing to do with kung fu or any other "martial art".
Dunno how the heck I'm gonna even make it through to Chinese new year.
I'll take "inferior", "external", "muscle" power over "internal" power any day; thank you very much.

[Salacious Crumb]

On a serious note, I can't believe I used to take threads like this seriously, and take the other side, no less.
Those sport kuhraddy kids make me realize I want nothing to do with kung fu or any other "martial art".
Dunno how the heck I'm gonna even make it through to Chinese new year.
I'll take "inferior", "external", "muscle" power over "internal" power any day; thank you very much. Sitting on the couch and drinking beer alone doesn't make you any better at MMA than it made you at CMA.

[Pork Chop]

Yah after that one time I realized I don't wanna make a habit of that.
Don't worry though, by June I should have some nice result pics for yah; sporting DOUBLE DEUCE ACTION.

'Sides, I doubt 1 JiuJitsu session makes me MMA. I'm just one of them San Shew kickboxing wrestlers.

[jmd161]

Here's my take on the whole thing.

First and foremost if a person does'nt truly practice the techniques of their chosen style and make them theirs.They will always result to what comes natural. Which in most cases is kickboxing in those type of matches or sparring.

In order for you to apply your techniques within your sparring or fighting. You have to make the techniques feel natural and become part of you.The only way to do this is to practice and drill the techniques until they become second nature.

If this is not done.The techniques will never feel natural and thus will require too much thought to even attempt to use the techniques.But like SifuAbel said if the punches and kicks are crisp then they're using their kung fu.





jeff:)

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by jmd161
In order for you to apply your techniques within your sparring or fighting. You have to make the techniques feel natural and become part of you.The only way to do this is to practice and drill the techniques until they become second nature.

If this is not done.The techniques will never feel natural and thus will require too much thought to even attempt to use the techniques.But like SifuAbel said if the punches and kicks are crisp then they're using their kung fu.

very true. many modern kung fu people in america dont practive 8 hours a day 6 days a week to make the techniqus natural so.. what you said jeff.

[truewrestler]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb


very true. many modern kung fu people in america dont practive 8 hours a day 6 days a week to make the techniqus natural so.. what you said jeff. ...how does that explain San-Shou in China looking like Kickboxing + Wrestling?

[Chang Style Novice]

<golf claps for Bmore Banga>

[jmd161]

Originally posted by truewrestler
...how does that explain San-Shou in China looking like Kickboxing + Wrestling?

For the same reason Muay Thai does'nt look like Kung Fu or Karate and why MMA does'nt like like either also.San Shou is geared towards.............Well san Shou! They focus on certain techniques and with a sport frame work.Most San Shou ppl in China "are not" traditional chinese martial artist.They have coaches that train them on the techniques that better serve them in a San Shou type match.

Since most fight against other San shou fighters or Muay Thai fighters what would you expect San shou to look like?



jeff:)

[truewrestler]

oh, ok... I'll keep a look out for REAL Kung Fu
Originally posted by jmd161


For the same reason Muay Thai does'nt look like Kung Fu or Karate and why MMA does'nt like like either also.San Shou is geared towards.............Well san Shou! They focus on certain techniques and with a sport frame work.Most San Shou ppl in China "are not" traditional chinese martial artist.They have coaches that train them on the techniques that better serve them in a San Shou type match.

Since most fight against other San shou fighters or Muay Thai fighters what would you expect San shou to look like?



jeff:)

[jmd161]

The point of my post was not that it's not real kung fu.The point is would you expect to see a boxer just boxing in a NHB type match?

I would think not i could be wrong though?

If you know you're going into a match that focus is on punching,kicking,takedowns,and throwing.Why would you only train boxing?

Does'nt it make sense to train kickboxing and wresteling techniques for San Shou?


Or do you not see the logic in that?



jeff:)

[truewrestler]

I totally see the logic in that. I also see the logic that all of those ranges/techniques are present in Kung-Fu thus people should simply have to refine the specific technique allowed. Who would have thunk that refining Kung-Fu for a broad sport like MMA would make Kung-Fu no longer look like Kung-Fu. Do you understand where I'm coming from?
Originally posted by jmd161
The point of my post was not that it's not real kung fu.The point is would you expect to see a boxer just boxing in a NHB type match?

I would think not i could be wrong though?

If you know you're going into a match that focus is on punching,kicking,takedowns,and throwing.Why would you only train boxing?

Does'nt it make sense to train kickboxing and wresteling techniques for San Shou?


Or do you not see the logic in that?



jeff:)

[jmd161]

Originally posted by truewrestler
Who would have thunk that refining Kung-Fu for a broad sport like MMA would make Kung-Fu no longer look like Kung-Fu. Do you understand where I'm coming from?


truewrestler,

I understand where you're comming from.But answer me this.

What does kung fu look like?

Punches,kicks,or wresteling is not considered kung fu?





jeff:)

[norther practitioner]

Who would have thunk that refining Kung-Fu for a broad sport like MMA would make Kung-Fu no longer look like Kung-Fu. Do you understand where I'm coming from?


What does kung fu look like to you man...

[truewrestler]

I consider this to be Kung-Fu. I thought you were saying that this was just said this was bad Kung-Fu? I thought you said that kung-fuers who do not drill moves and make them there own will revert to kickboxing. However, at the end you go on to say that Sifu Abel say if a kung-fuer's kickboxing is good then they are using their kung-fu. I'm just very confused by all of this
Originally posted by jmd161



truewrestler,

I understand where you're comming from.But answer me this.

What does kung fu look like?

Punches,kicks,or wresteling is not considered kung fu?





jeff:)

[norther practitioner]

The hands making a little difference, but the circular motion is one thing that people always remark as distinctive.. when applied in a fight, can still look like "kick boxing"..

The thing is, when you are practicing striking... you are kicking and punching.. which remarkable as it is, is the essence of kickboxing as well.

[SifuAbel]

I say this every time this subject comes up.

Its not about doing kung fu vs. kickboxing. Its when the fight degrades to a sloppy brawl that it is deemed "bad".

I mean really, when you see a KF form , its all striking, kicking and such.

The kung fu is in the details. Not the fact that he's punching, but what are the subtlties of the punch. What are his strategies of footwork, defense and control of the opponenet. Is he a close fighter ala wing chun, is he a distance fighter ala longfist. Does he draw alot like mantis. Does he throw ala shuai jao. Are his punches short and quick or broad and power oriented. This is where you find kung fu in a kickboxing match.


Its not about style, its about proficiency.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by harkfu
Kick boxing- Using the classical or typical boxing hand positions(John L. Sullivan, Jack Johnson, and Joe Lewis) together with kicks.( front, back, side and round):)

By this logic, Taekwon-Do is Kickboxing, plus a couple more kicks. It's not though.

[norther practitioner]

Crecent kicks aren't used enough imho...

I like em.. anywho, thats something I see at tournies that I don't at kickboxing matches (not a lot at least).

[MasterKiller]

Crecent kicks aren't used enough imho... Because my roundhouse sucks so bad, I use crecents a lot.

[jmd161]

truewrestler,

What i was saying was not intended as a knock against kickboxing.What i was trying to say is that many kung fu,karate,taekwondo,etc........striking arts practice kicks,punches,strikes.when you learn these techniques they become part of your sparring.If you spar without a real knowledge of the techniques.Then you are going to pretty much kickbox.By that i mean you're going to punch and kick ,but there won't be any real technique behind the kicking and punching. Pretty much you're just waling away.

But if the person has a grasp of their techniques? You will notice a difference within their kickboxing.You will notice more crisp techniques as well as the usage of range and other factors.Even if a person is kickboxing,fighting MMA,san shou whatever.........If they have a grasp or their techniques? And have drilled them and made them apart of themself? No matter what type of sparring or fighting they do.You will be able to pick out techniques within their fighting.

Even if that person is a kung fu stylist in a boxing match.You will notice within their fighting. Techniques that they learned within their kung fu training.The thing is that just because a person is kickboxing does not mean they are not using their kung fu training.But at the sametime because they are kickboxing also does not mean that they are using any kung fu techniques.

Dose that better explain what i was trying to say?



jeff:)

[truewrestler]

Thanks for the reply guys!