Chop Choy Question

[pest]

Is the Choy in Chop Choy the same as the character principal Choy? :confused:

[German Bai Lung]

Yes.
It means: to hit. Or in this case the hit.

[ninjaboy]

i was under the impression that, more literally, the "choy" in the longfist set called "chop choy chuan" has something to do with stabbing or piercing and that the character principle "choy" used by many mantis stylists, as in "au lau choy" had more of a "pulling" or "plucking" association attached...

could someone please be more clear on the differences for us english speaking folk?

happy new year!!!!!

sincerely,
neil

[German Bai Lung]

There goes something mixed up:

Choi / choy with a hard ch (like english chop) always means hit!

Choi / choy with soft ch means to pluck like in au lao choi

Chap or Chop with a hard ch means to pierce or better to stab.

So Chap Choi Kuen means: Stabbing Hit Form.
Remember the open hand stab near the end of the form!

[Young Mantis]

Sorry, not to disrespect anyone but I will have to disagree with the answers given so far.

For the form commonly called Chop Choy, the Choy character is different from the Choy character used in the 12 principles.

For Chop Choy, the correct pinyin for this character is Chui and yes, most commonly means pound or hit but also in this case means fist as in hammer fist or pek choy.

In the 12 princicples, the character choy in ou, lou, choy is cai using correct pinyin and that character usually means gather or pick.

I will try to post the characters but not sure if the Chinese will come out correctly for everyone.

Chui = ´¨
Cai = ±Ä

So the character choy in chop choy is not the same as choy in ou-lou-choy.

YM

p.s. I just checked, for you to see the Chinese characters correctly, you will have to adjust the encoding in your Internet browser to use Chinese Traditional (BIG5).

[German Bai Lung]

@Young Mantis:

Did I say something different?
Maybe its my poor english...

But I want to say exact the same! :)

[ninjaboy]

thx YM, i appreciate the clarification....

sincerely,
neil

[mantisben]

Originally posted by German Bai Lung
...
Chap or Chop with a hard ch means to pierce or better to stab.

So Chap Choi Kuen means: Stabbing Hit Form.
Remember the open hand stab near the end of the form! I wonder how it got this name since many of the movements - as I learned the form - are circular.

I usually think of "Stabbing" being a straight kind of strike, and a "Chop" (English Chop) as a circular strike.

This form is chock-full-of Upper-Cuts, Hammer-Fists, and Round-House punches. It contains straight techniques (Reverse-Punch/Tung-Choi), and the left straight palm-heel strike used with the right cross-kick.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by ninjaboy
...
...had more of a "pulling" or "plucking" association attached...
...

You know, I never thought about "Choy" in "Chop Choy" as a "pulling" or "plucking" motion. But now that you mention it...

There is a movement in the form that is DEFINITELY a very strong Pulling/Plucking action where you grab the opponents arm and throw all of your weight onto the opponents elbow in an attempt to break the arm or force him to the ground. Or force him to the ground, then break the arm.

I've seen this done in UFC matches where one guy's arm is pinned to the ground, elbow facing up, and the other guy starts bouncing/smashing the opponent's elbow/shoulder with his knee, to destroy the elbow or shoulder. Usually the fight is over after this.

When practicing the form though, when this technique is executed, I don't go lower than a reverse bow and arrow stance, so the application of forcing the opponent to the ground is not obvious. At least it wasn't to me, when I was initially taught the application of this technique. But I ain't too bright...

In Sifu Paul Eng's book "Spear Hand", it is called "Polk Stance With Double Trapping Hands". It is picture #3.

This technique is done in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd roads of "Chop Choy".

I don't have proof, but I wouldn't even rule out that the creators of "Chop Choy" said "Choy" as in "Hit", but secretly envisioned "Cai/Choy" as in "Pluck/Yank" just to conceal that particular technique of "yanking" to force your opponent to the ground, and the "grounding/pounding" this technique can lead to.

It wouldn't be the first time that a simple but devastating technique was "hidden" in a "basic" kung-fu form.

[ursa major]

Originally posted by mantisben
I wonder how it got this name since many of the movements - as I learned the form - are circular.

I usually think of "Stabbing" being a straight kind of strike, and a "Chop" (English Chop) as a circular strike.

This form is chock-full-of Upper-Cuts, Hammer-Fists, and Round-House punches. It contains straight techniques (Reverse-Punch/Tung-Choi), and the left straight palm-heel strike used with the right cross-kick.

Hello mantisben,

Interesting point. I am familiar with several english names for this form eg: Piercing Fist, Stabbing Hand and Spear Hand to name a few. I was taught the form as Chop Choy and just to throw a wrench into it, 'Chop Choy' was translated to me by my teacher as the 'Lightning Attack' form which is what I call it.

The 'Lightning Attack' form that I practice is consistent with the WHF Chop Choy book and I have compared it to other lineages as well concluding the steps are consistent such that the only true difference is in the name (English translation that is).

To be honest I have no idea where the Piercing, Stabbing or Spearing hand is supposed to be although the 'Lightning Attack' was pointed out to me. I would be grateful if anyone could point out the connection with piercing, stabbing or spearing and this form?

thx in advance,
UM.

[ursa major]

The first I ever heard about it ('pluck') was in Lee Kam Wing's first book (the co-authored one). I think it was mentioned as ou-lou-tsai or hook, seize and pluck. In LKWs second book I read of ou-lou-tsai but in this book it is described as hook, seize and strike (fist). The latter is also in keeping with how I was taught this PM method. In practical terms I drill ou-lou-choi as hook, seize and strike.

I figured the explanation for Chop Choy form if translated literally was chop = cut and choy = strike. But I know better than to trust surface appearance on these matters.

regards,
UM

[German Bai Lung]

Hi Ursa,

again there goes some words mixed up:

in LKW first book AND second etc there is choi always "pluck", the technique "au lao choi" means alsways hook, grapple and pluck and is finished with a hit - sure. So to be correct it must called: au lao choi choi..sound not so good.

To get things clear (Young Mantis did this before!):

Cantonese - Mandarin (Pin Yin) - English

Au Lao Choi - wo lou cai - hook, grapple, pluck
Tong Choi - tong chui - straight punch (hit)
Chap (Chop) Choi - cha chui - stabbing punch (hit)

You see: the choi in Au Lao Choi and in Chap Choi are different characters and spoken out different in Mandarin! So it´s improbable that the character choi in Chap Choi means both: to hit and to pluck! Also you are right: there are many techniques with the plucking motion.

As far as I know and had learned the form "Chap Choi Kuen" there are a lot of stabbing or spearing techniques:
- straight punches in the first road
- straight open hand attacks like thrusting palm (chap joeng) in almost every road
- and of course the stabbing or chipping palm in the last road where the other hand is blocking open hand right over the head ...

IMHO this last technique is giving the form his name ...

[-N-]

Originally posted by German Bai Lung
You see: the choi in Au Lao Choi and in Chap Choi are different characters and spoken out different in Mandarin! So it´s improbable that the character choi in Chap Choi means both: to hit and to pluck! Young Mantis and German Bai Lung are correct. The words sound completely different in Cantonese also. They look the same only because of the attempts at romanization. I think English doesn't have the particular phoneme used in the Cantonese pronunciation.

Although the literal translation of choi in au lao choi can mean pluck or pick. I think it is meant in a more figurative sense. In combination with au and lao, you can take what you want - you got him.

For what it's worth, in Sifu Lai's class we used the term 1-2-3 punch technique, or else we used a functional(not literal) translation of intercept-control-strike.

Here's a link to a free talking Chinese dictionary that some may find useful. They also have online lookup.

http://www.euroasiasoftware.com/english/chinese/dictionary/index.html

N.

[MantisifuFW]

First, "N", thank you for the language link. I believe strongly that it is an important thing to understang the language of the people who created this art that we all enjoy in order to appreciate it fully and to comprehend the concepts of the art.

Second, to that end, I am nearly finished with a book that will teach a student how to read the Quan Pu, Cantonese, Kuen Po, of Northern Praying Mantis; that is, the names of the forms and the names of the movements in the forms. Future books will teach a student how to read the movement discriptions and then the tactical applications as present in the sixteen books still available by Wong Hon Fun.

With this book, Won Hon Fun's listings, the listings of Chu Chi Man as newly recorded by Lam Wing Kit and the Taiji Tanglang listings by Lam Wing Kit are all approachable. It is a small first step but an essential one. At least I feel that it is.

A Happy New Year to all,

Steve Cottrell

[-N-]

Sifu Cottrell,

Congratulations on the progress to date on your book project. I know many people are looking forward to see the results of your hard work.

Happy New Year wishes to you too,
N.

[Young Mantis]

Originally posted by -N-
Although the literal translation of choi in au lao choi can mean pluck or pick. I think it is meant in a more figurative sense. In combination with au and lao, you can take what you want - you got him.

For what it's worth, in Sifu Lai's class we used the term 1-2-3 punch technique, or else we used a functional(not literal) translation of intercept-control-strike.


I agree. I think many people who are not native Chinese speakers that look up Chinese words in a dictionary will often be hard pressed to understand some of the terminology. Even for native Chinese speakers, it is often difficult to know what the intended meaning of a word is. Most dictionaries will give only the basic or most common usage of a word. They do not account for any figurative usages or local variations to the word. So for non-Chinese speakers, it would be even more difficult if all you have is a dictionary to guide you.

Choi in au-lao-choi definitely refers to the punch at the end of that combination and the translation given by -N- is right on.

YM

[pest]

First want to thank all of you for shedding light on this subject, it has definatly given me some insight.

thanks again!

Pest