Serious question about punching form (pics)

[IronFist]

I've wondered this for years and years, so finally I took pictures of myself demonstrating it and now maybe I can get a definitive answer.

Everyone pretty much says that you're supposed to punch with your wrist and forearm in a straight line, as in example 1 below.

Everyone pretty much agrees that a bent wrist, as in example 2, is bad, weak form. But yet Wing Chun people ALWAYS demonstrate punches like this. This is how my wrist and forearm are when I punch my dummy, and also if I'm doing a Wing Chun straight punch in the air or against a person.

Example 3 shows that it's necessary to angle your fist with your wrist bent (as in example 2) in order to hit someone in front of you with a Wing Chun punch. If you punch them with a straight wrist and forearm (as in example 1), you'll hit them at an angle and it won't be a solid connection.

So, is it bad and weak to punch like that? Cuz WC people do it all the time. I think even Yip Chun or someone demonstrated it in a book once and I remember thinking "well if he does it that way it must be right."

And yes, I blocked out my face.

Thanks.

[dezhen2001]

the blue lone ranger mask you have really suits ya buddy :D

thats an interesting question and one of the few MA related ones on the front page of this forum i see... some things never change :P

Its something i too have been wondering as i used to do boxing but now wing chun. Even shorinji kempo which i used to do punches with a vertical fist, especially to the chest/stomach but its more like your first pic.

dawood

[David Jamieson]

ironfist-

when you are punching, it is my belief that alignment is more than power and in fact compliments power and doubles it or t least optimizes it.

If you have three pieces of cane and you want to thrust them all like a spear shaft, they have to align so the structure doesn't break.

think of you arm like this. your hand itself is one piece, your forearm the next and your upper arm the end with your shoulder being the drive and it's motor is the rest of you while grounded.

If there are any structural alignment problems, when you put out force against a resisting unit, your structure will break and your power will be diminished.

Each piece must stack in such a way as the structure can support itself under it's own weight. At this point you are driving a solid aligned piece and not a wobbly three pieces.

cheers

p.s why the blue mask? it's not like you're posting porn or something lol.

[sticky fingers]

A bit hard to see from your pic, perhaps a side angle would be better to show the angle of your wrist.

As Kung Lek said, the WC vertical punch is all about alignment. The wrist is not actually bent at all., it's aligned perfectly straight if you look at it closely. Contact is made with your last 3 knuckles. If you're punching a bag and find your last knuckle is hurting, you've bent your wrist too far.

[LEGEND]

Try it on resisting sparring partners and see what they say. Some peeps simply have natural punching power and can slap KO u. Bas Rutten is an example.

[old jong]

I punch with my fist aligned with my forearm,always. I was corrected years ago from "aiming with my fist" as so many still do.
It is simply an other of the many "deformations" common in the many lines of Wing Chun.Who started this?....Who knows?....
Anyway!...Start using the straight wrist and you will soon feel how the elbow energy is involve in real punching. You may feel you double your punching power just by doing that!...I'm serious!

You will change from a "semi-backfist" movement with no power, to a "wood sawing/pumping" direct motion. This is a lot more powerful.
Try it!;)

[Gold Horse Dragon]

Pic one in the proper way to punch unless you want to dig up into the solar plexus with the knuckles of your small and ring fingers...but these can only be used for soft areas. The small and ring fingers have no direct solid connection line through the wrist bones and ulna to the humerus (upper arm) where as the knuckles of the index and middle fingers have a solid connection to the humerus through the wrist bones and radius bone of the forearm. If you hit something hard with the small and ring fingers it is very easy to dislocate/break them and their associated metacarpals. If you have ever taken western boxing they will tell you to never hit with these two knuckles for the reasons mentioned. Many CMA do not recommend hitting with the last two knuckles for the same reasons.

GHD

[Vash]

*coughisshinryucough*

[IronFist]

Ok. No offence guys but no one really answered my question. Maybe I just wasn't clear.

If it's so bad to hit with the wrist bent back a little bit, why does everyone in WC do it that way?

Also, the third pic shows that if you're doing a wc punch you have to bend your wrist back because otherwise you would just contact with the corner of your knuckle.

Hold on I'll take some more pics and illustrate my point...

[IronFist]

In the meantime, check out this guy:

http://www.wckfc.com/training/punch.GIF

Look at how bent out his wrist is, just like in my example 2. There's no way you could look at that and think his hand and forearm are in a straight line.

[old jong]

I think I did answer your question!...O.K. I'm not in Wing Chun because of my father so,you don't have to take me for granted!...;) ;) ;) Think about it and do what you think is best.You could also compare both methods on a heavy bag.

[LEGEND]

I studied wing chun and the uplift wrist snap gives additional power. Bruce Lee 1 inch punch was a demonstration of the wrist snap.

[Vash]

that the wrist ends up in the upturned position after contacting with a fist bent a la the Isshinryu style.

But, I only know what I read in the Tao :)

[IronFist]

Ok, here comes a series of pictures so give me a second.

Note: I'm not talking about the "upturned" fist. I know about that. I'm talking about fist alignment in relation to the forearm when viewed from above. Turning "up" the wrist is not relevent here.

Ok.

Pic 1: Standard Western Boxing alignment
See how the fist and forearm make a straight line (it doesn't look perfectly straight, but that's because of the angle of the camera. I drew lines to illustrate my point). This is what most people regard as the "proper wrist and forearm position."

(I'm punching the stand of my dummy. hehe)

[IronFist]

Pic 2: Wing Chun straight punch wrist alignment
I exaggerated it a bit in this pic, but you get the idea. This is the same thing that Chinese guy in the picture a few posts back is doing, so don't say it's wrong. See how in order to hit something in front of you squarely, the wrist must be pulled out of line with the forearm? This is how WC people straight punch, and I want to know why they do it this way if everyone says it's not proper alignment.

[IronFist]

Pic 3: Wing Chun punch with Western Boxing alignment
Ouch. You hit with just the corner of your knuckles if you do it this way. This isn't the right way to do a wc punch, is it? I chipped a knuckle 4 years ago cuz I accidently hit something this way.

[IronFist]

Pic 4: Me hitting the dummy with a wc straight punch.
Notice the slight "out of alignment" of my wrist from the Western Boxing style.

edit - I dunno why the dummy body looks so skinny there. Must be the lense I used or something. It doesn't matter for this pic anyway.

[Cung-Fu]

Im not wing chun but I' ll take a stab at it.

I think your vertical fist is wrong, it seems like your hitting with the 2nd digit of your fingers instead of the knuckles.

[IronFist]

^ no.

The only thing I'm asking is about wrist alignment. Not about turning the wrist up. Not about which knuckle to hit with.

:D

[Cung-Fu]

Does the wrist have a tendency to bend when you do a vertical fist?

I don't use vert. fist so I don't know

[IronFist]

I'm just asking why wing chun people do it that way when everyone else says it's stronger to keep the fist and forearm in a straight line.

Note to mods: This thread would be so much easier if we could post pics :) :) :) :D :D :D

[apoweyn]

Ironfist,

What are you hitting with in the wing chun version? (As opposed to hitting with the 'edge of the knuckle.')

It looks to me like you're hitting with the back of your fingers in addition to the knuckles. But that might just be the perspective of the photos.

I see what you mean though. Perhaps it's because you're drawing your fist into a centerline and then punching rather than in boxing (or most other punching methods I've seen), where the punch comes directly from the angle of your shoulder rather than being drawn into the center first.

So perhaps you're right. Perhaps you do have to violate the generally accepted wisdom of alignment.

Have you asked your wing chun teachers? I think it's a good idea to get an outside perspective (as you're doing). But what's the inside perspective?


Stuart B.

[Kristoffer]

I always hit with the first two knuckles (ring and pointy finger). When I punch trees/logs I almost always use the 'western style straight forward' punch and hit with the first two. I don't use the straight punch by vertical at all. Only punch I do vertical is a hook. Instead of the western boxing style where the fist is like above (straight only in a hook). If doing the hook vertical u might save your knuckles instead of breaking them. I punch stuff all the time so I know what I'm talkin about :)

[cerebus]

"the first two knuckles (ring and pointy finger)."
Are you missing your middle finger knuckle? Or is the middle finger considered the ring finger where you are? In the U.S. we refer to the finger between the pinky & middle fingers as the 'ring' finger.:D

[Kristoffer]

lol

oops, I meant 'pointy' and 'f-u finger'

(we use the same ring fingers here too :D )

[matt]

:eek:
i use both of these fist and the photo in pic one will get you a busted middle finger eventualy you kneed to rotate the hand to the 11:00oclock position after making the fist to align the finger joints if you do this you see that most of the brunt is being applyed with the middle or biggest knuckle from about a 45degree angle into the corner of the knuckle from there rotate the wrist toward the pinkey till the index finger makes contact this is the proper position to strike in the karate way.... if you look at the alignment of the last three knuckles when in this fist you notice that theay are in alignment if you now twist your hand vertically and bend the wrist to the other side away form the bone on top of the arm you have the correct contact position but the force of the strike should go thru the big knuckle and ring finger making the force come from the center of the hand instead of a knuckle this is done for penatration when you chain the wing chun punchs together your hand and arms alignment comes out of your body and you use the bending of the wrist to drop weight into the fist tieing the whole thing together... that is the main reason that it looks funny in your pics because you take the pictuer from the top of the arm in your karate punch to lign it up but the pictuer of your wing chun punch following the same princapals should be taken form the bottom of the arm on the bone that is being aligned

[IronFist]

apoweyn said:
What are you hitting with in the wing chun version? (As opposed to hitting with the 'edge of the knuckle.')

In the wing chun version I'm hitting with the bottom three knuckles (pinky, ring, middle) and the first third of those three fingers.

Lots of downloads and few replies. Thanks guys :rolleyes:

matt, you're going to have to try that again, with punctuation this time.

[IronFist]

Actually, I just realized I have two pics here called pic 1, 2, and 3.

The first image I uploaded has three parts, each of which are numbered. Then the last 4 pics I uploaded are numbered 1-4. So if you say like "pic 1" you'll have to specify which "pic 1" you're talking about.

Sorry for the confusion.

Anyone else have a digital camera? Just take a pic of what you're talking about. Otherwise I'll just get more confused and have to start another thread. :D

[Phil Redmond]

IronFist wrote:
>>This is the same thing that Chinese guy in the picture a few posts back is doing, so don't say it's wrong.<<

That "Chinese" guy is Yip Ching, one of Yip Man's sons and YES, it's wrong.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by IronFist
In the wing chun version I'm hitting with the bottom three knuckles (pinky, ring, middle) and the first third of those three fingers.

And, aside from Phil Redmond, have you run this by any authorities on wing chun?

[Mr Punch]

Originally posted by IronFist
Ok. No offence guys but no one really answered my question. Maybe I just wasn't clear.Mr Jong answered your question. (Not yours!... the older one!!!)


If it's so bad to hit with the wrist bent back a little bit, why does everyone in WC do it that way?I'm in wing chun and I don't hit that way. Nor did my last sifu. Or the previous sifu. Or the previous sifu's sifu nor (I can only presume) my last sifu's sifu. They are all in wing chun. What's more, I would get a bollocking for doing so! At least one of the people mentioned above was taught directly by the geezer whose pic you posted, so that's a bit of a mystery.


Also, the third pic shows that if you're doing a wc punch you have to bend your wrist back because otherwise you would just contact with the corner of your knuckle.No it doesn't!

If you are of the body type who CAN punch directly along the centre line you should have no problem in keeping the back of your fist aligned directly with the bones in the forearm, and the bottom of the fist aligned with the ulna (if this sounds ridiculous, just substitute 'radius' - think it's the right way round: the bottom bone anyway ******!!). This is how I was taught.

If you are one these barrel-chested types... well I don't know, cos I'm not, but I'd guess you wouldn't have a problem either...

Personally, for anything other than drills, I like to relax and let my elbows flare out a little from centreline, which causes the above alignment problem, but only when striking a flat surface head on. Since in those situations I am sparring or chisaoing, I do not get this problem... I can't think of one of my opponents/partners who have completely flat chests, heads, throats or other targets!!! I am always putting my hips in, and always trying to cut the angles, and if you do this you have no problem hitting square on with the bottom three knuckles without compromising your alignment.

Even with the forty-five degree fist, the upcut or the bounce punch, you should not be compromising your alignment, you should be choosing your targets and driving the fist into them! This will compromise the integrity of your opponent's body, rather than your fist!!!

Thanks for the pics and interesting questions and stuff.

I've no idea why Ip Ching is doing that, other than it maybe being a publicity shot when the photographer asked him to make sure we could see his sun fist...?!




Oh yeah, forgot to mention Old Jong and Phil Redmond are also in wing chun... and they don't appear to do it like that :D :eek:

[rogue]

I see what you mean in the pic of Yip Chun(?). The hand is not symetricle(sp?) and if you're trying to punch with the bottom three knuckles the back of the hand will be angled out a bit.