Alright, new punching question thread (pic)

[IronFist]

Ok I guess I made my last thread too confusing, so I made this one easier.

If you are using a wc straight punch to break a board (or a head), in which position would your hand be upon impact?

Please note that I'm not talking about any angles of the hand when viewed from the side. I'm ONLY talking about when viewed from above, as in this image.

So pick: is it 1, 2, 3, 4, or "other," and if so, please explain.

Thanks.

[vingtsunstudent]

none.

vts

[yuanfen]

none.

get a decent teacher to correct you.

BTW in a previous set of pictures(with your face blocked out)- not only were the fists wrong but your shoulders were cramped-which hinders the wing chun punch- a good punch involves a
good chain of events...you can"t learn just from pictures.


joy

[curtis]

WHY???

I agree with yuanfen. get a better teacher!
You clearly dont understand.
C.A.G.

P.S. fill in your profile,quite hideing.what you know, and what you dont.
no one knows if you are jokeing or not.

[canglong]

Ironfist,

Have you read this?

Understanding the Wing Chun Punch (http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/loewenhagen/wingchunpunch.php)

Principles drive the concepts which guides the methods which create the training which leads to results. If you break the chain you have just become the weakest link.

[kj]

None of these. Major ouchies on (3) and (4).

Fist appears far too tense as well, making it a) more susceptible to breaks, especially if you hit something hard with any substance behind the strike, and b) nigh impossible to achieve the correct hand/arm/strike alignment.

Alignment is much more important than having a tight fist, IMHO. You will distort the "sun character" (re Phil's diagram) if you squeeze the fist. I also second Keith's observation about forearm/knuckle alignment.

A well-aligned fist will tighten upon itself during impact. A relaxed fist also offers you some shock absorption. The recipient still receives the full brunt of force if "long-and-lasting energy" is employed in the strike, with a proper foundation and body structure behind it.

Joy is also majorly correct (e.g., re shoulders). Without having the body and underlying "engine" right first, fist talk is a nit.

Prerequisites for a good Wing Chun strike: a good teacher, and lots of sandbag work, with emphasis on tapping rather than bashing. This also trains alignment and mechanics of the body, the importance of which cannot be overstated.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[Phil Redmond]

Though they are all off, number 2 is the "least" bad of the 4.

[Phil Redmond]

IronFist, who is your Sifu? You should be asking him these questions. They are very basic and should be taught at your first class. An improper fist is like having a gun with no bullets.

[fa_jing]

You should imagine that you are gripping a tube of small diameter. The fingers, especially the 4th and 5th fingers shouldn't completely curl in, as these distorts the aligment of the knuckles.

[IronFist]

Again, some of you are answering questions that I didn't ask.

I'm only talking about hand/forearm alignment. Not which knucles you hit with, not how tight the fist is, not where the thumb is, not anything else.

If none of those are correct, someone post a pic of what is correct. There are only so many angles the wrist and forearm can be at. Obviously some of them up there are way off, I was just covering my bases.

[kj]

Originally posted by IronFist
I'm only talking about hand/forearm alignment. Not which knucles you hit with, not how tight the fist is, not where the thumb is, not anything else.

It's all related.

Regards,
- Kathy Jo

[edward]

i wouldn't use any... guaranted broken hand or wrist with that punch

[IronFist]

Are you guys sure it's wrong? I've got a bunch of examples of people using the "incorrect" bent wrist method.

If we look at this (http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/images/punch_cl.jpg) picture, it looks like he would hit the board with his pinky knuckle first. Ouch.

Yip Ching (http://www.wckfc.com/training/punch.GIF) likes to punch that way, too. (Even tho Phil Redmond said it's wrong).

Sifu Grados does straight punches like this as well. I've attached some frames from a Sifu Grados video taken from here (http://www.sifugrados.com/technique.shtml). His wrist is anything but straight when viewed from above. And yes, these images are from a fully extended punch.

Look at the guy in the middle of this logo (http://www.windycitywingchun.com/test.h1.jpg). It's kinda small, but what's that? Wrist turned outward!

This guy, too!!! (http://www.vkcvt.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Headers/Header-portrait.JPG)

I've also got various videos of WC teachers demonstrating the punch like this. I guess I could take pictures of the TV screen. I can't hook the video up to my computer, though.

So in the mean time, please explain why all these people are doing it wrong? Are they all conspiring against me in an attempt to make me do it wrong?

[IronFist]

Here's a pic of Yip Chun and some other guy both doing what you guys call the "incorrect" way.

The first pic it's hard to see because it's kind of a side view, but in addition to being tilted back, his wrist is also severely out of line with his forearm.

In the second pic it's a bit easier to see cuz it's more of a front view.

If you were to look at either of these men's punches from above, it would definately NOT be a straight line between the forearm and fist.

So if this is wrong how come all these WC guys do it this way?

[rubthebuddha]

IF -- check my reply on the main forum.

[IronFist]

Yeah I got it and replied there.

This is why I don't like posting the same thing in two forums... but there are some people who only hang out here and never go to the main forum so I had to post it here so they'd see it as well.

[yuanfen]

Re; Iron Fists- punch pictures. There is an apple versus oranges
dimension in trying to compare.
The pictures not in the same frame of reference---specially on timing.
Air Punching and punching an object or a bag are quite different things. In air punching you are developing and releasing power
and finding the path of power. On a bag you are adjusting to the bag's resistance among other things.
Also different photographs cannot be really compared- a slight change in the frame if reference--- just before releasing power, at the moment of releasing power, soon after releasing power-there can be differences in appearances. A micro second difference in when a pic is taken can make a difference. Thus right after release the wrist is more relaxed than before.

Individual differences are also common in wing chun.
The appaearnce of Victor Kan's punch looks ok to me.

Again- Iron Fist you cant learn good wing chun from looking at pictures.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi IF,

You can't always judge alignment by measuring angles. If human bodies were steel frames designed to always support weight in one direction, then yes, you can talk about "optimal" alignment. But we are not made of welded joints and the forces that we apply and that are applied on us can and do change in magnitude and trajectory at any given time.

There is actually a range of angles that any joint can be in for the purpose of transferring force. In the case of the punch, it is less important what exact angle your wrist is in than that the muscles around your wrist can support the transfer of power from your body into your opponent without allowing your wrist to be the breaking point.

For the purposes of the sun character punch, it is probably more important that the face of your fist land squarely so that 1) you don't break your knuckles and 2) you set up a stable "platform" to drive more/remaining force into your opponent.

Nitpick the pictures all you want. But if you let each one punch you with their "right" or "wrong" punches, however you wish to define them, I'm gonna bet dollars to donuts each one is gonna hurt like a muther.

*Disclaimer*
The above opinions and hypotheses belong soley to myself and have not as of yet been rigorously tested in UFC, Pride, etc. The owner of said opinions and hypotheses assumes no responsiblity for proper or improper use of the knowledge extracted from this post.

Regards,
Alan

[IronFist]

^ I know. I'd just like a straight answer to my question without delving into other subjects. That being said, your answer has been about the most helpful of everyone's. Thanks.

[KPM]

Originally posted by IronFist [/i]
[B]Are you guys sure it's wrong? I've got a bunch of examples of people using the "incorrect" bent wrist method.

-----People can do many things and make it work. What you are seeing may not necessarily be "incorrect", but there may be a "more corrrect" way of doing it from a biomechanical standpoint that is less likely to injure the wrist. This doesn't mean that every time that someone lands a punch using the bent wrist structure that they are going to break or sprain their wrist. But personally, I prefer to do things that are as biomechanically sound and safe for my body as I can make them. Am I going to tell Yip Chun or Yip Ching that they are doing it wrong? No! But I also don't feel the need to do things exactly as they do if I see what is in my opinion a clearly better way to do something.


If we look at this (http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/images/punch_cl.jpg) picture, it looks like he would hit the board with his pinky knuckle first. Ouch.

Yip Ching (http://www.wckfc.com/training/punch.GIF) likes to punch that way, too. (Even tho Phil Redmond said it's wrong).

Sifu Grados does straight punches like this as well. I've attached some frames from a Sifu Grados video taken from here (http://www.sifugrados.com/technique.shtml). His wrist is anything but straight when viewed from above. And yes, these images are from a fully extended punch.

Look at the guy in the middle of this logo (http://www.windycitywingchun.com/test.h1.jpg). It's kinda small, but what's that? Wrist turned outward!

This guy, too!!! (http://www.vkcvt.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Headers/Header-portrait.JPG)

---There are several problems when trying to evaluate what is going on in at least some of your illustrations. As Joy has pointed out, the timing of when the pic was shot vs. when they were actually contacting the target is something important to consider. Another big factor is that in some of the pics you show, and angle and perspective of the photo makes it hard to really tell how their wrist/hand is angled.


I've also got various videos of WC teachers demonstrating the punch like this. I guess I could take pictures of the TV screen. I can't hook the video up to my computer, though.

---Again, just because a lot of people do it, doesn't make it right. At least not when you consider good biomechanics, which is where I am trying to speak from.

Keith

[hunt1]

Ironfist- I dont see your dilema. You dont need anyone here to tell you the proper fist you can determine that yourself. Get a nice hard, stable punching surface,place your punch against this surface and push. What happens to your wrist? what happens to youe forearm and elbow? Try all the different postions in your pictures plus whatever variations have been described or others show. You will find the correct postion and angle for the wrist and forearm. When nothing bends or feels like bending and you feel your feet rooted you will have it.

[old jong]

I put my left punch at 11:00hr and my right at 13:00hr.
This is how I was taught in Fong's line. It makes a very strong "powerline" while staying relaxed.
Take a look at this pic of Sifu Patrick Gordon (http://www.cyberus.ca/~p.gordon/graphics/blkgp1.jpg) demonstrating the basic Wing Chun Punch (Yut Gee Cheong Kuen)
It is not "perfectly" vertical but it makes perfect contact with the target.
Make the wall test (or push up on the floor)and you will feel how solid that alignment is. It also makes for a very clean elbow line in punching.That's where the power comes from. (the thing we train in the slt first part!) ;)

[yuanfen]

Gee Old Jong. I have been doing it all wrong,,, ending up at 10.59
and 13.01- a real knucklehead. OOps -the devil and the details.
Back to- a punch is just a punch

[Phil Redmond]

IronFist wrote:
>>"If we look at this picture, it looks like he would hit the board with his pinky knuckle first. Ouch."<<

The last 2 knuckles ;)

>>>"Yip Ching likes to punch that way, too. (Even tho Phil Redmond said it's wrong)."<<

In the pic you posted his wrist looks bent to me. We don't bend the wrist.

[old jong]

Originally posted by yuanfen
Gee Old Jong. I have been doing it all wrong,,, ending up at 10.59
and 13.01- a real knucklehead. OOps -the devil and the details.
Back to- a punch is just a punch

You know that A 10:59 punch could'nt even mess up Royce Gracie's hairdoo!... Back to training Joy!!! ;) ;) ;)

[yuanfen]

Old Jong sez-
You know that A 10:59 punch could'nt even mess up Royce Gracie's hairdoo!... Back to training Joy!!!
----------------------------------------------------------
In the second Royce/Ken Shamrock match a rather clumsy Shamrock pushing kind of punch busted up Royce's face around one eye/cheekbone. Shamrock was not really in trouble after that.
I believe they called the fight a draw---must have imported Don King judges. Training? I will be up to it in a little less than 3 hours.