Ignore my old punching thread. New one (pic)

[IronFist]

I hate to be the d!ck who posts the same thing in two different forums, but other people have done it before.

Alright.

I guess I made my last thread too confusing, so I made this one easier.

If you are using a wc straight punch to break a board (or a head), in which position would your hand be upon impact?

Please note that I'm not talking about any angles of the hand when viewed from the side. I'm ONLY talking about when viewed from above, as in this image.

So pick: is it 1, 2, 3, 4, or "other," and if so, please explain.

Thanks. And please don't answer questions other than the one I've asked. I'm not trying ot be a d!ck, I just want a straight forward answer.

[sticky fingers]

on your other thread I thought you were asking about the bending the wrist vertically (thats why I asked for the side angle pic) but now I know you were asking about the horizontal angling of the wrist.

from your new pic the correct angle is pic 2

[IronFist]

Thanks.

But when I do a wc punch I can't get it to work with that angle. If you're facing your target and punching to their centerline, the wrist can't be in that angle because your shoulder is outside of your centerline and your whole arm has to come in. So it would be more like pic 3. If you wanted to maintain a straight forearm-wrist, then it would have to be like pic 4 (ouch).

Now tell me how to fix this problem.

[anton]

I can see your dillema.
edit: Changed my mind... I am assuming you are punching with your body facing the wall, without any significant twisting of the torso/shoulders. In this case I would say somewhere between 3 and 4 would look correct.
Also, your thumb placement looks a bit weird to me.. I bend it in more, so that the 2nd knuckle of your thumb touches your index finger between the second and third knuckle.... I guess to an extent all this stuff is just a matter of what feels comfortable to you though...

[Ikken Hisatsu]

mmm yeah your thumb does seem a little too close to your knuckles. dont want it to hit something.

as for the original question- not being a WC practitioner Im not sure. I do know however that in every style I have seen and studied, a straight inverted punch is done like pic 2. but im not sure what your dillema actually is- I can do a WC centerline punch with a straight forearm and wrist. could you post a pic of your upper body to give us an idea of the alignment (since you do wing chun this is probably something Im doing wrong and not you, but Its worth a check anyway)

[MaFuYee]

move closer to the target

[rogue]

Good thing WC is a simple art.:p

[rubthebuddha]

ironfist -- halfway between two and three. one and four would both yield a broken wrist if hit against anything substantial.

[IronFist]

Guys, the reason my thumb is in a weird place is because I took the picture with the board on the floor (see the carpet behind it?) and I had to twist my body around to be able to look through the camera lense while still trying to keep my fist on the board. Then I rotated the image so that my fist was facing upward instead of downward. It's not actually there when I'm punching for real.

I'll get some upper body pics in a few minutes so you guys can see more of what I mean.

[IronFist]

(I posted this same reply over on the wc forum.)

Are you guys sure it's wrong? I've got a bunch of examples of people using the "incorrect" bent wrist method.

If we look at this (http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/images/punch_cl.jpg) picture, it looks like he would hit the board with his pinky knuckle first. Ouch.

Yip Ching (http://www.wckfc.com/training/punch.GIF) likes to punch that way, too. (Even tho Phil Redmond said it's wrong).

Sifu Grados does straight punches like this as well. I've attached some frames at the bottom of this post from a Sifu Grados video taken from here (http://www.sifugrados.com/technique.shtml). His wrist is anything but straight when viewed from above. And yes, these images are from a fully extended punch.

Look at the guy in the middle of this logo (http://www.windycitywingchun.com/test.h1.jpg). It's kinda small, but what's that? Wrist turned outward!

This guy, too!!! (http://www.vkcvt.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Headers/Header-portrait.JPG)

I've also got various videos of WC teachers demonstrating the punch like this. I guess I could take pictures of the TV screen. I can't hook the video up to my computer, though.

So in the mean time, please explain why all these people are doing it wrong? Are they all conspiring against me in an attempt to make me do it wrong?

[Becca]

Don't meen to butt in... Sorry...

IronFist, there are different types of "strait punch". The guy you said would hit with pincky is using an inverted strait punch. Can't speak for anyone else, but I tend to use it when I'mm gooing to miss to the outside of my target. I find it helps me make contact with first 2 knuckles better, in this sinario. Hope that helps a bit.:)

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Becca
Don't meen to butt in... Sorry...

IronFist, there are different types of "strait punch". The guy you said would hit with pincky is using an inverted strait punch. Can't speak for anyone else, but I tend to use it when I'mm gooing to miss to the outside of my target. I find it helps me make contact with first 2 knuckles better, in this sinario. Hope that helps a bit.:)

^ I know. Alllllllllll I'm talking about here is wrist angle. The only reason I mentioned that pinky guy is because his wrist is absolutely straight, but he's going to break his pinky if he hits a board like that.

[Becca]

Oh... Sorry. I knew I should not have butted in.:o As far as angle then: I'd say 2 to be tech., but will have a bit of a bend like 4 at impact.

[rubthebuddha]

ironfist -- you're missing one important fact: each of those punches are at full or near-full extension.

that may not say much alone, but as you're learning to understand the wing chun punch, you need all the elements. at the end of the punch, some flavors of wing chun teach a bit of wrist motion -- akin to c0cking the pinky forward -- to add oomph to the punch. it may not sound like much, but when done at even minor speed, it is not difficult to feel the difference.

think of the punch this way:

1. your fist starts facing straight toward your target.
2. it continues to face your target travelling straight toward it as your elbow extends.
3. as your fist hits the target, your wrist c0cks, extending the bottom portion of the fist through the target.

understand this -- the pinky knuckles do not start out further forward, as that would leave the wrist fully flexed in one direction (this, if it had to go further in that direction, it'd tweak the wrist. the wrist does this motion at the point of contact. <edit> that c0cking of the wrist continues through the target and the wrist finishes a little wonky looking. now look at the pictures, particularly of gm yip -- had he a target, at that point of elbow extension his hand would have been "through" the target. thus, his wrist is a little flexed up. </edit>

think about it this way -- each joint in the body can add or subtract power. weak ankles, thighs and knees give you no base or stepping/turning oomph, weak hips do the same, weak shoulders allow for no whip, weak elbows (think triceps) don't allow for much pop on your forward extension, etc. it's all about mechanics. you learn the basics to be able to hit, then you learn nuance so you can use little things like a wrist motion to add oomph.

like i said, not all flavors of wing chun do this, nor does wing chun have technical dibs on it.

this explain a bit more? if not, pm me and i'll do more there or IM.

[IronFist]

^ Again, I'm not talking about extending the bottom of the fist through the target. I know all about that. I'm talking about the fist and forearm, when viewed from above, not being in a straight line. Wrist c0cked up or not has no effect on this angle from above.

[rubthebuddha]

on that note, then i'll say this:

the striking surface is not the main row of knuckles, but rather the "flat" area on the fist of the bottom three fingers (between the first and second knuckle). with that in mind, i've been taught, and i agree with this, to line the center of that space (halfway between the first and second knuckle on each of the three lower fingers) up with the center of the forearm.

anyone who doesn't do this ... will be choked out by royce. :p

in no way am i responding for everyone, particularly folks that know more (maybe they know better, maybe worse, but they do know MORE) than me. i'll stick with what works best for me against a body, a headcage, a wallbag and a focus mitt. that's my suggestion for you -- figure out what feels safest and strongest. it's unlikely that we'll be able to get all the masters together to hit those Bob targets at full power to see whose wrists get tweaked, so until there's some astoundingly obvious solution, stick with what works best for you.

[Golden Arms]

Ironfist..this is a case I think where just doing it yourself will get much more of a 'good' answer for you, vs. waiting for opinions. If you hit a heavy bag with that sucker, or even a wall pad, and start getting some power behind it over and over, especially when you get tired, you will find the alignment that works for you....then look down at your hand and see what it looks like :)

[IronFist]

I'm gonna freaking shoot myself. This was not supposed to be a tough question.

rub said:
the striking surface is not the main row of knuckles, but rather the "flat" area on the fist of the bottom three fingers (between the first and second knuckle).

Yes. That is where I hit with. I will illustrate this with a pic later so there is no confusion.

out what feels safest and strongest.

I'm saying, when the wrist and forearm are not in a line it obviously feels weaker than when they are. When when you're standing infront of something and go to straight punch it in the centerline, you can't line up your wrist and forearm like that. Instead it ends up looking like all those pics I posted of people doing it with their wrists tilted outward.

Golden Arms said:
Ironfist..this is a case I think where just doing it yourself will get much more of a 'good' answer for you, vs. waiting for opinions. If you hit a heavy bag with that sucker, or even a wall pad, and start getting some power behind it over and over, especially when you get tired, you will find the alignment that works for you....then look down at your hand and see what it looks like

Yeah. I can hit fairly hard with it the bent wrist way. But everyone says that's wrong. Then I post a bunch of pictures of WC teachers doing it that way and no one says anything. Well, Phil Redmond said it was still wrong, so at least he replied.

All I want is a straight answer from a few WC people. But no one can answer the f-ing question that I ask! People talk about knuckles and thumb placement and tilting the wrist up and other stuff that I didn't ask about. Yes, those are important, but they're irrelevent to what I'm talking about. Either I'm stupid and I can't ask the question right, or people just can't read. And I even post pictures to SHOW what I'm talking about, and still no one seems to get it.

[fa_jing]

I hit with the main force going through the knuckles or maybe about 3/4 inch from the plane of the top of my hand. I thought this was standard in all arts. I hit like that whether it's with the top 2 knuckles (favored by my teacher) or the bottom three, or all four. If there's a secret Wing Chun way to do it, I haven't really heard about it.

Other than that, I'd say it's not what picture to go emulate, but rather hit things like bags or rap your knuckles on a wall or piece of wood, maybe do makiwara striking or knuckle pushups whatever you can come up with, without wrist wraps. That's you finding out for yourself what the correct alignment is for maximum support. I think there's only one way.

What RTB said is true, there are some special Wing Chun ways to manipulate the knuckles, but I've heard this dimissed as parlor tricks. I'm sure it's good stuff, but my point here is that it is not essential to making Wing Chun work for you. To wit: I have learned no such methods.

For a great look at the Wing Chun knuckle manipulation punch, you should check out the movie "Warriors Two" with Sammo Hung. It's hammed up but you get the gist of it.

But for the basic hand alignment, you should perform the exercises as I described above.

[IronFist]

I want to see a pic of how someone would break a board with a wing chun straight punch if they're standing squarely toward it, so that their arm has to come in to the center line. I want to see what the wrist alignment would look like when viewed from the top.

Like this (except with real people):

[fa_jing]

IF -

Does your diagram show a wedged elbow? I couldn't tell. The elbow should be wedged a bit.

Wing Chun never was designed for breaking boards, but it's perfectly easy to do. Just use the knuckles. If your hand is not conditioned (and whose is?) then you should use the top two knuckles.

[IronFist]

Does your diagram show a wedged elbow? I couldn't tell. The elbow should be wedged a bit.

Honestly I just drew it with the line tool in like 2 seconds. It wasn't meant to be anatomically correct :D

Wing Chun never was designed for breaking boards, but it's perfectly easy to do. Just use the knuckles. If your hand is not conditioned (and whose is?) then you should use the top two knuckles.

All I want to know is the angle that the wrist and forearm would be at when viewed from above when breaking a board while directly facing it.

[IronFist]

Please come on someone take a pic of themselves or something to answer my question :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[crumble]

Originally posted by IronFist
So pick: is it 1, 2, 3, 4, or "other," and if so, please explain.

Thanks. And please don't answer questions other than the one I've asked. I'm not trying ot be a d!ck, I just want a straight forward answer.

Although in practice things will be moving too fast to "decide", I pick #4. The knuckles align with the forarm. The power will go in and do that with a small surface area. The important thing for #4 is that the attack moves from the same angle as the forarm, so it doesn't go straight in on the centerline, but angles in, slightly from the side. But maybe this violates the wing chun centerline idea?

-crumble

p.s. By the way, I really like how you really isolated the specific issue, used pictures, etc.

[David Jamieson]

ironfist-

the quickest way to resolve this is to strike with the fist in each way.

find the way that least hurts you and does the most damage to your target. that's the one you want, remember how it feels and practice it.

punching air doesn't help with understanding correct alignment at the next level so to speak. actual use of the tool and force issuing is where it gets clearer.

alignment is absolutely key to getting the most out of your punches.

cheers

[rubthebuddha]

if -- guess i understand your predicament better now. wrong or not, i do punch with the fist facing forward, which requires the wrist to be slightly bent toward the outside. i don't suffer any problems at all because of it, and i've hit and mis-hit :o more than enough things (people, headcages, pads, wallbags, heavy bags) to provoke an injury. hasn't happened (yet), so i'm not too worried about it. just build up a strong set o' wrists and you'll be fine.

fa-jing -- i'm not sure i'd call that wrist thing a "parlor trick." while wc has its share of tricks like any other art, i've felt the difference many times over (from leung ting himself, no less) and there's a distinct feeling of improved "oomph" when i'm hit with that little wrist flick. :)

and if phil redmond is reading this and says i'm doing it wrong, too bad. i'm too old to change now. ;)

[fa_jing]

RTB - again, I believe you need extensive knuckle/hand conditioning to be able to punch with the bottom three knuckles, especially to a hard surface. I don't feel I have this even though I have done a little hand conditioning.

Ironfist - I definitely think that your question has nothing to do with Wing Chun. Sounds like you are asking how to break a board with a punch. It's not hard, if you are talking about your standard 1 inch 12 by 12 pine board. The white belt test in my TKD class used to require the student to break a board with a punch - later they changed it to a hammerfist.

If you are using a vertical fist, line up the grain vertically, make sure the holder doesn't flinch, use the top two knuckles and punch past the board. It might help to yell before you do this. I broke a board with a hammer fist when I was 15, before I ever had a martial arts lesson. I've seen 8 year old kids break those boards.

OTOH, I did see a video of a Wing Chun school in Hong Kong once, and some of the students were breaking stone slabs with their WC punches......the slabs looked like they were exploding in the middle...so it can definitely be done.

[IronFist]

crumble said:

I pick #4. The knuckles align with the forarm.

Really? The knuckles also align in #2. I think if you hit with #4 it would bust your knuckles. Ouch. But what do I know.

Kung Lek said:

the quickest way to resolve this is to strike with the fist in each way.

Yeah, but I was asking about how WC people do it, not if I can do it each way.

rubthebuddha said:

if -- guess i understand your predicament better now.

Wheeeeeee Finally someone gets it. :D :cool: :rolleyes: :D It only took 3 topics and a bunch of pictures.


wrong or not, i do punch with the fist facing forward, which requires the wrist to be slightly bent toward the outside.

That's the answer I was looking for. There's so much contradiction in MA in general, and even on the WC forum. I didn't see how it was possible to do a WC punch straight ahead and NOT have the wrist bent slightly outward, but everyone is all "no no no that's bad."

But for some reason, everyone thought I was talking about bending the wrist UP to facilitate contract with the lower three knuckles. wtf I said that wasn't it like 10 times.


i don't suffer any problems at all because of it, and i've hit and mis-hit more than enough things (people, headcages, pads, wallbags, heavy bags) to provoke an injury. hasn't happened (yet), so i'm not too worried about it. just build up a strong set o' wrists and you'll be fine.

Yeah same here (knock on wood).

fa_jing said:

Ironfist - I definitely think that your question has nothing to do with Wing Chun.

My question had everything to do with WC, considering it was "if a WC person breaks a board..."


Sounds like you are asking how to break a board with a punch

I want to know the angle at which the wrist at forearm would be at when viewed from above when a WC person breaks a board that is directly in front of them.

[rubthebuddha]

There's so much contradiction in MA in general, and even on the WC forum. LIES. :mad: nothing but LIES. :mad:




:D

[rogue]

Good lord guys, it's a fuucking punch not rocket science. Hate to break the news but we lowly non-WC arts throw punches all of the time and hardly think about it. And I thought Isshinryu guys were dense!:rolleyes:



:D :D :D

[anton]

Originally posted by IronFist
Look at the guy in the middle of this logo (http://www.windycitywingchun.com/test.h1.jpg). It's kinda small, but what's that? Wrist turned outward!

Looks like a CLF technique... can't remember the canto name... "yeurng charp" I think...

[Royal Dragon]

Question, what's the goal here?
If it's to penetrate INTO the opponents chest, hit him with something close to # 3

But if your doing a slicing, or cutting punch where the power is driven in the same line as the bones in the forearm, then # 4 is better. Personally, I feel this would be the hardder hit as your alignmet would allow you to drive more body weight into the hit, but it would be cutting in on an angle, as opposed to directly through the centerline as with # 3.

Disclaimer, I know WC from Addam, I'm talking purely on the assumption that accomplishing the goal is the point of importance, not styleistic purity.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
what about this...

http://www.kungfuonline.com/article.php?article=31

^ Yes! Look at his fist. It's also turned outward!!!

Wow it almost looks like I'm proving all the WC guys wrong. Come on guys, I don't even have a WC teacher!