View Full Version : The Common Jock Attack...

Rolling Elbow
09-04-2000, 06:43 AM

Before any of the jokers come out to post replies here.., I would appreciate if we could keep this discussion on track and actually deal with the issue at hand rather than telling B.S stories...

The question I have for everyone is what type of attacks have you most commonly faced on the street. Outside of bars I have viewed the typical sucker punch, wild flailing arms and/or the grapple rush. Has anyone ever had to face another MA or a boxer in a situation outside of a bar where you were taken by surprise by the attackers attitude? If not, what type of wild attack did you face?

As this discussion is meant to be informative rather than an argument, I would like to hear from people concerning their observations during the fight...how did he move? was his weight distribution and balance poor? Did he only grab and punch or did he pull hair, strike the throat, head butt or apply shin kicks?

Please be serious here guys, I think it is a good chance for experienced people like Sifu Abel to make observations without being attacked. As I am relatively new here I hope that we can keep this topic in line for the few days that it might stay alive...


09-04-2000, 07:33 AM
I was at a party once when a TKD stylist lost his cool and kicked a guy in the head. The unexpecting recipient was kicked freakin hard, but still had the capacity to stand up and keep his cool (while stylishly backing down). The kick was unexpected, but more important was how the victim still had his faculties after the fact...so much for the one punch one kill theory, eh?

09-04-2000, 09:48 AM
the wild fast, desperatrion punch,the standing clinch,those are what ive seen the most.A lot of groin kicks too.Most street fights start REAL close,usually the guy(were not talking about ambushes and sucker punches right?)will move real close,maybe put a hand on you,but get right in your face.To me ,the biggest word of advice is to remember that adrenaline will make your opponent a lot faster than usual and pain resistant.Hell do things that normally he couldnt,in terms of speed and power.
NEVER avert your eyes from the guy when he walks in close,running his mouth,even if a friend talks to you, or someone calls your name,taps on your shoulder,or whatever.Ive seen so many guys do this and get clocked that it isnt funny.
If you know hes a boxer(hell even if ya dont)look for the left hook (lead hook) as an opener.It doesnt telegraph much and it can end a fight.Before he throws it hell have one foot a little ahead of the other,thats the side the hook will come from.This too is a very common tactic,and will work for you too if you throw a hook properly.Oddly enough,Ive met very few martial artists that throw a hook,they usually disdain it as a "boxing" technicque,and sadly leave this wonderful attack out of their arsenal.
The other attack of note,again one that Ive seen shut down martial artists,is to grab with one hand and bomb ya with the other.Hell grab ya,pull or push a little and bash you with shots.Remember the adrenalin strength,and forget most of the "self defense against a grab" crap you learn in school,It WONT work.Believe me or not,i was a bouncer for many years and I saw this over and over.He will pull your head down if possible,this is almost an instinctual move to do.
It is hard enough to stop this stuff,especially if theres more than one guy,so I highly recommend leaving the place or ,if you cant,attack first when violence is eminant(sp?).These attacks,though not pretty,will work good for you too,be realistic and get familiar with them.
Why do you think Abel is an experienced streetfighter?Not to attack,abel has much more endurance and taste for a flame war than I,but I dont recall him recounting any real fights hes been in.Just curious.

Rolling Elbow
09-04-2000, 05:18 PM
Good point Jimmy...I guess I kind of figured Sifu Abel was bringing allot to the table. But let's not count him out yet, he may have something to add..

You made a few good points, the clinch and punch is VERY common. Especially up here (Canada) where everyone plays hockey or has played at one level or another, the tendency is to grab, pull a jersy over the head and punch away. That and the tackle are common. The wild punch too is as i've seen also a big seller...In grab defenses you are right. Defense #5 will do nothing for you when a punch and hit comes unless you've learned just move your body in any way away from it...so moving the target around to(your head)

I wondered at what point you might consider hitting the individual? If he is getting in one's face and slowly moving forward, how and when should one decide to hit? Give him one back up warning then strike? I guess that is the only thing to do. The only thiong here is that if you strike, you have to commit to fight. If you commit to fight, you have to know that you will get hit and the fight goes on in all probability until HE decides to stop coming at you or has kicked your ass sufficiently.

I am surprised by the groin kick as it was told to me a long time ago by people like my brother (who have had a fair amount of scraps outside bars in his younger days), that kicking in the groin is dishonourable in street fighting and that the moment it happens, everyone jumps in the game. Well...i never saw things that way and I'll hit with anything and to anywhere on the body.

Godd posts soo far, keep em coming...As for the taekwondo story, did the kicker start jumping around after the kick or take a strong stance? I have this conception of TKD people as jumping around an awful lot but not remaining rooted whatsoever...

09-04-2000, 10:19 PM
I recall 2 fights I witnessed in my yout. One was in a locker room with very little space to move. It involved more boxing straight jabs and the odd (wild) hook to the head. No terrible damage. No one stepped in, it was toe-to-toe.

Another fight I witnessed involved a buddy of mine. It was more of your step in, throw one strike, step out. My buddy was relectant to fight, but the damage wasn't that much on either side. Here too, both people stood (basically) toe-to-toe.

My comment, most people fight this way. Probably because of the influence boxing has on most of our lives, even if all we have done is watch it on television or closed circuit. Toe-to-toe, in my opinion is how most folks go at it.

Although, in the heat of the moment, if the attacker is really bent for destruction (usually being emotionally charged), I have seen the dreaded charge, with the back fist cocked and striking repeatedly like a piston, while the other hand goes for a grab. These strikes are usually repeated overhead blows.

I believe that unless one of the fighters is emotionally charged, caution wins out 97% of the time and both parties will stand toe-to-toe. If, on the other hand, one is emotionally driven, then they simply see RED and like a bull...charge forward willie-nillie.

The last UFC bout I watched, there were these 2 massive behemoths that charged at one another at the beginning of the fight. As they closed, both suddenly stopped, took up fighting positions and proceeed to taunt and measure oneanother. I thought it was interesting. I realise there is a good chance you add to your opponent's defense charging in full-bore, but if this is measured with distinctive technique (half-assed bridging skills), this can become advantageous, especially when your opponent is backpeddling within reach.

One last note, I only mentioned this one UFC fight, out of context, to illustrate my observation of toe-to-toe mentality. Seeing that UFC is primarily a grapplers paradise, I fully understand why the people stop to square up in a much more 'safe' measure.

Myself, move...hit...move....hit/move...move some more. Kicks become ineffective quickly in this regard.

Rolling Elbow
09-05-2000, 02:24 AM
Thanks nospam, I too feel like kicks are a little dangerous for me..i prefer body movement and elbow-fist-palm strikes. Throw in some basic trapping or jamming and sticking principles with an awareness of grappling or wrestling skills, and I think an individual should be set to go in your average street fight. If he remains calm and thinks about making his strikes count, the untrained fighter should be able to be overcome...but the right decisions have to be made quick and without hesitation.

Thanks for the post...tell others to visit so that I may gather as much insight into this as possible..Don't worry i don't operate a McDojo, it is for my own interest and study..

09-12-2000, 07:27 PM
I'm a late comer to this forum, I apologize. I'm hoping some of you guys will be back here to post again, there is some good stuff posted on this issue so far.
Rolling Elbow, I have to agree with you 100% on the hockey influenced fighter. Hell, the grab-and-pound-away technique is is most common in my neck of the woods (Montreal) and I've seen it even in Brooklyn NY where I live now. You opened the question to trigger this discussion talking about 'attacking jocks' and I would like to comment briefly on that. If the jock in question happens to be an experienced hockey player, you can safely assume that he also has a short fuse on the ice, and that he has been in a few scraps before. That taken into account, I can tell you as a hockey player myself, that you will definitely NOT have to contend with the Tae Kwon Do jump around! (I had a good chuckle at that one!) Understand that hockey enforcers(fighters) have a level of balance and strength unparalelled with any other non MA athlete! Trust me, fighting on the ice helped me quite a bit in KFu. Assuming he is right handed, your hockey attacker will most definitely be quick to grab your shirt just left of your throat to start. If you are wearing a strong fabric collared shirt for example he will have a strong grip on you, and this will prove annoying because unless you are significantly taller, his left arm will be blocking any chance of your countering with even a straight snap jab. An affective uppercut is also out of the question. Also, forget using counter-balancing techniques TOWARD you because hockey players stand with all their weight on their back legs and he will be pull you toward him with a lot force to get his right fist into the center of your face with a slight crossing motion. Contrary to what some people believe, hockey players don't pack a big followthrough either unless they are getting tired (if you noticed, 90% of NHL fights end with one player falling on top of the other). So what do you do?
To start, whatever you do, DON'T crouch down. I know that all of us here have KFu backgrounds(I hope) and that instinctly we tend to react by taking a stance we are comfortable with. Try to take as tall a stance as you can. If your attacker is quick, avoiding taking a punch might not be an option. Brace yourself from the get-go and bite down hard and/or tuck your chin in as hard as you can to the opposite side of your attacker's gripping hand. Then you will use your left palm (anyone doing extensive iron palm training rejoice!) to come up with a snap under and inside his left elbow. (Be quick after his first punch, hockey players have a tendency to pack a lot of power without pulling back far at all). Then grab his left wrist with your left hand, pull to the right, take your familiar stance and, well, do your thing! (you know kung fu!) I've used this technique to the T three times in Montreal and it never failed me. If you pack a minimum amount of power in your snap, it will end quickly and with a minimum amount of damage. And if your attacker really IS a canadian hockey player, help him up, smile, pat him on the back and he'll buy you a beer (it's customary). You've just made a friend! :-)

09-12-2000, 10:09 PM
Hi guys, I'm from Italy and just EVERYONE here plays soccer. Adding to the attacks you have mentioned, that are universal I think, here is common to strike the shin-knee area with a kick with the tip of the shoe, just as you would kick a soccer ball. The takedown in Italy is a nonexistent move. Noone train in wrestling here. The times I used it, it has worked very well cause it was unexpected.

As for counterattacks, the one that did best for me is that: whenever a guy start to mouth off and lunge, I stomp his knee with a front stomp done with my right leg (I'm a southpaw), usually this shift my weight to the back leg, so if he throw something, he has a good chance of missing. Nothing fancy as you see.


09-13-2000, 03:50 AM
i like the different attitudes by region here.it seems(from these postings) that Canadians are basically good ole boys,theyll whip your butt then buy ya a drink,but if ya fight dirty (groin shots) then look out,you got to fight everyone now.
Underdogs ugly and scary attack (and effective I might add) shows that in soeme areas low line attacks are acceptable.Odd how the dominant sports in an area affect the peoples style and perceptions of fighting.
Here in Mississippi,at least the places where I bounced which were dives,there is no honor at all,its what I call ghetto fighting.Im willing to bet that in any impoverished area this attitude is prevalent.Groin kicks,teaming up,using weapons,all are going to happen.it isnt whether its fair,its who wins,no matter how the wins occurs.In poor areas i think there tends to be a stronger "rat pack" bond,and loyalty to the group is the most important attribute you can show,whether the group is your friends,gang members,or members of your bouncing crew.Any thoughts on this?

Rolling Elbow
09-13-2000, 06:19 AM
Man am I happy that my post came alive fellas! It is true that Italians will kick, I lived there and was born there and I remember the type of attacks..mass sworming of skinheads on a few people. Had to break it up once or twice with my pals..they all just kicked and kept distance from person they were attacking. I still remember my buddy Paul, some skin got ****ed that we broke it up, so Paul took a karate stance and smashed the guy in the nose! Boy was he ****ed!

Anyway, in Canada things aren't that jovial anymore..today if you get in a fight, it is very seldom that your or his friends won't jump in the mix. But essentially, I will give our trouble makers here more credit because it is trrue that they have good balance and "shirabe" as it is called in taijutsu. Because they have always relyed on the clinch and feeling out the elbows and shoulders of the opponent, they get good at tying you up. They haven't develloped the subtle soft applications of sensitivity though. While trying to get a hold of you though, they look pathetic if trying to close the gap from across the dance floor or something. This is actually where push hands come into effect, if you meet his hands with yours a.k.a the Ueshiba hand in front of face, he will invariably meet it to get it out of the way or grab it. This sucks if he is in wing chun or knows trapping skills but likely when they are drunk and want to kick your ass, they will just "bring it on" and yell and bounce allot. Personally, staying relaxed and calm is hard and I have not yet tried it in a real confrontation, but I know on reaction that meeting the hands and redirecting energy is a great way of countering their attacks. Of course as soon as you hit, you need to keep hitting the *******s.

Keep em coming...who has any thoughts of when you should strike? The old back me into a corner or when he gets right in your face?

Rolling Elbow
09-13-2000, 06:21 AM
Woah, my spelling and grammar was horrendous there, please accept my appologies.

09-13-2000, 08:30 PM
Regarding the attack where someone grabs your lapel/neck and pounds you with his other hand....
What is taught at aikido/tkd/karate etc dojos generally is to respond with locking the grabbing arm.
From experience... this is very hard to pull off.. especially as Jimmy has mentioned, the purpose of grabbing is to control. I've never seen anyone in a serious assault situation just grab and stand there.. more often than not i will be to pull in or push down etc.
One thing about this though, is that while a guy is using one arm to grab you, you generally know that it's going to be the other arm that will nail you, and his grabbing arm can't hit you either. It's best to respond by striking back while defending against his punching arm. Forget the 'selfdefense' moves. IF you land a good shot he will let you go, or will be weakened so you can apply your lock a lot easier(classic jujitsu/ninjitsu). Then it becomes a whole new ball game.
Bruce Lee himself advocated this, striking a grabbing attacker rather than doing a 'circular' takedown while th other guy nails you in the face.

09-14-2000, 12:09 AM

What the hell is a jock attack?Please enlighten me.

09-14-2000, 12:57 AM
Mild7, In regards to your last posting, I agree that the average Joe Nobody that will grab you at the collar may not pose much of a problem in terms of hitting first and getting it over with. If you were referring to my last post, understand that I was being perhaps a bit over-specific as to the type of assailant you would be dealing with. I'm certain that Rolling Elbow will agree that whether you hit first or not, the big-angry-drunkened-puck pusher will take a licking and keep on ticking; tough cookies. Also, most of these on-ice encorcers are FAST right handed punchers (rolling elbow, remember Troy Crowder? :-)) and as I've mentioned, very, VERY solid on their feet and therefore extremely difficult to take down even for somoene of experience. But then again, there I guys I know that can pull crazy magik tricks when it comes to quick take downs, and they happen to be my aikido pals!
Great stuff guys keep 'em coming!

Rolling Elbow
09-14-2000, 08:40 AM
The Jock Attack is your common drunk frat-boy out for a fight...attacks include the Canadian special grab and pound, the tackle, the hay-maker, or bottle to the head.

It is true, Canadian Tiger has made a good point. These puck *******s are strong man. If you knock them down, usually they will take you with them because it has been engrained in their fighting style to bring the other guy to the ice with you and jam his arms until the refs jump in...and man these *******s can punch like Wing Chun guys. Usually if you can fend off the 15-20 seconds of adrenaline punches, they will tire and go for a wrestlers clinch with the odd punch. But man, they can hit and the knuckles are conditioned from hitting the helmets half the time.

I would say as sson as contact is made, shift the balance 45 degrees. As he punches you have moved your head and have some of his momentum to play with. Also, striking the bicep or upper chest will temporarily jam him..Forget the takedowns. Gozo Shioda (Yoshinkan Aikido-the rough stuff) once said 90% of a fight is atemi or striking. You have to hit these *******s atleast 4-5 times and then which ever way their body is going, take them in that direction. Don't be nice, they sure as hell aren't when they are feeding you.

09-14-2000, 08:58 AM
Yup rolling E. Absolutely strike the arm as soon as possible.

I have never been so unlucky as to have gotten into a scrap with a ridiculously large athlete in the way of a linebacker in football...Anyone have any comments as to how guys over 6'3" 275 pounds tend to attack and what do you feel, as a stricker not a grappler, is the best way to get out of that sticky situation?

Rolling Elbow
09-15-2000, 08:06 PM
Fighting a body-builder or power lifter- 250 pounds and over. With increased muscle comes the ability to sustain hits...I find these guys intimidating personally at this stage of my training. But in real combat, and again my brother and I argued over this one, claw to the face or grabbing skin or groin are permissible. Half the time those are the only options available to you..

Good to hear from somebody who has taken on a big guy though.. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

09-16-2000, 02:05 AM
I hear ya...scary. A friend of my Sifu's is a doorman at Club Twilo in Manhattan. I met him to weeks ago. My sifu tells me this guy's 3rd dan kenpo; And he must be 6'6" and over 300lbs! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
What do you then, after you've shat yourself? I'm gonna try to sign that guy up for the next UFC...
(Let me know if you're ever in NYC, we'll go out for a beer, canuck style)


Rolling Elbow
09-17-2000, 01:39 AM
We even got good ratings on the topic here! If I'm ever down there, I'll take you up on the drink. Then we can hit a club and watch some poor shlubs duke it out on the sidewalk while we take notes lol!

It would be good to hear from some of the more experienced guys on the forum here, but it always ends in a war when you get Sifu Abel and Jojitsu on the same thread..I bet they've got some good stuff to add though. If we can just get people to give insight and observations rather than picking apart each other's experiences than I think the topic can live on a little while longer..

How the hell can one take on a 300 pound tough guy anyway? I've got to admit, intimidation is still a factor for me when i see these guys.. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

09-17-2000, 01:43 AM
I once asked my Sifu how you would fight one of those "Worlds strongest men" Like Magnug Ver Magnison. He said, "You don't fight them, just apologize" For other really big guys, don't let them grab you, keep them at a distance and hit them hard in the head and throat. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif And a good kick to the knee is also good for Really athletic and well built guys because their always getting their knees scoped.

8Step Sifu

09-17-2000, 04:14 AM
agaisnt a big weightlifter type(a football guy will usually go for a tackle after a blow or two,once more sports influencing combat)the best bet is to nail him a lot in the face,near the nose and eyes.very few of the really strong guys ever think of defense,so a first strike or two or three will usually land.ANow,heres the danger zone,they will either swing wild,fast and hard once they start taking damage(assuming the worst case,that they dont go down),you better be ready to MOVE as a real strong fellow can hit your shoulder and take you off your feet,especially with the aforementioned adrenalin factor,and even a blow to your chest may take you out if it lands solid.the next danger is the desperation grab/lunge,anyone will do this ,it seems to be a natural animal reaction when people get hurt.I wont try to mention too specific tactics here,but I make the point (again) that you should mold your training to take the adrenalin thing into account.Worst case scenario,hes a roid freak,so I say avoid the grab and rip eyes,this doesnt taketoo much room .A favorite trick I used in my bouncing days,when things were in a semi clinch situation,was a finger near or in the eyes to get his attention up,then a knee to the bladder area.The distraction of the hand in or near eyes and nose leaves em ripe for this.Learn the Thai knee,it works really well if set up like this.Also,learn the head butt,it too is an ugly effective move that can do wonders in close
If worse comes to worse,do the Gracie thing and hold em CLOSE,body to body ,like you love em a lot.This will keep him from using his strength to clobber ya,he may gas out or help may arrive.An unskilled fighter has a lot or trouble against this,especially an enraged one.The natural tendency is to flail and beat,and thissll shut that down.Remember though,there may be more than one,so the ground is a last resort

Rolling Elbow
09-19-2000, 01:18 AM
I was wondering at what point most of you would consider striking a potential attacker. Say you were outside of a bar or in a club or something.., if the individual is right up in your face talking "smack" as they say, do you feel his next move will be to hit?

What are the options:

A. Back up as he approaches, allowing him to push, maybe grab and hit, and then strike only after he has made the first physical move?

B. Or allow yourself some distance and decide that once he has crossed into your "safe-zone" he is going to be hit?

God knows I don't like to start confrontation, but at what point should you feel it is right to strike..is it a case of the old story of the fox cornering the rabbit? The rabbit, with no choice will always charge the fox and stands a good chance of getting away...Just remember, the hard part here is knowing that once you throw a punch or kick, you are now committed to fight...

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

09-19-2000, 05:47 PM
If youve tried to avoid the fight,and theres no way out,heres my advice,which is worth what youre paying for it(nothing /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )
I would advise that you act a little scared,which shouldnt be too hard.Put your hands up in a "hey man I dont want any trouble here pose".If you can,without taking your eyes off the guy ,get a quick look at your surroundings so you can see if theres someone setting up to sucker punch ya.Ideally youd have done this earlier,when the trouble started brewing.Now,most people are primates in their behaviors.They will posture,make noise,abd generally make it very clear that a fight is coming.Also,most people cant just go from calm to fighting without working themselevs up to it emotionally.This is where I look for my edge.If the bad guy has made it clear that theres no way Im not gonna fight,I will try to jump him will full aggression before he gets himself worked up.Like I said (sorry Im meandering so much here),put your hands up like you just dont wanna fight,then ,as he gets close (just like a dog hell probably try to get real close to ya as hes posturing) blast him straight down the middle to the chin or eyes,then follow up fast and hard.Your training and the fear you feel(this why on other posts I say that fear is your ally)should enable you to put out a lot of damage quickly.If you dont currently train to do this,then add it to your abilities.
If things go right and the guy goes down ,DONT follow him there,back off,make sure no one else is gonna jump you,and leave,right then,not later,not in five minutes,right then.The fool may get a gun and come back,or have friends that would love to cheap shot you.
Anyway,thats my idea,hope I gave you a decent answer.

09-19-2000, 07:31 PM
One weakness with the goliaths is low endurance. Typically, they'll go all out for the first few minutes, and then just hit a wall and knock themselves out. Like a big SUV, lotsa power, but run outta gas fast. A classic case was when Mark Coleman (big guy) fought some littler guy in one of the UFCs. After he hit the wall, he was completely winded and could barely stand up and move around. So, if I had the luxury when fighting a giant, I would try to let themselves tire themselves out before I stepped in and tried much. I defintiely would try to avoid getting close enough to get hit or grabbed at the get go when he's at the top of his power curve. Of course, you may not always have that luxury.

In summary, I think TIME is the big factor here

09-26-2000, 01:33 AM
first i gotta laugh at the TKD thing,,,, i personally don't consider TKD to be a complete art its to full of holes and their training is just as silly.... a kick to the head may look cool/work in the party seen where everyone is loaded... but anyways enough of my discorn for TKD....

mostly here *oregon* we see allota tackling or hooks... i would suggest a crossarm block which holds their arm for just a second why you apply a wrist lock with your left arm *provided they punched with their right, then tiger paw your opponent from here you can do tons of things... i would suggest breaking their arm... but i'm a little vendictive...

for tackling i have little advise other than try and dodge it, as a football player i can tell you that a good hard tackle can really really hurt.
as for the hockey grab and punch. i was thinking that maybe once he grabs you; you could step into him and apply a wrestling technicque known as a head and shoulder/arm... basically is is a hip through. if applied correctly you'll end up on top.

09-26-2000, 04:05 AM
Where in oregon. Those dockside bars can be mean, and then there are the hicks of eastern Or. Southern Or. = California. The valley= hippies. Or are you talking about the north? Portland, Astoria etc?

8Step Sifu

09-26-2000, 05:35 AM
eastern but now that you mention it i used to live down in southern california near San Lious Abisbo.... lovely town....

but yes your right... oregon has a little bit of everything...

another thing we have been overlooking is the fact that your opponent could be wired on drugs wich *particularly crank, or coke, or the dreaded PCP aka Angle dust* someone on drugs is more likely to fight. now one thing you have to take into consideration is that putting down someone on the first 2 drugs is going to be a little harder than if they where sober. Becuase of the effects of the drugs, if they are on the last one you might want to incorparate something into your training that i have been for quite some time its called the 5 mile jog... what you do is get up 5:30 every morning and start running..... hehehehehe,

09-27-2000, 12:00 PM
Being in Alaska I have noticed that we have alot of the hockey fighters here too, as in Canada.
Being a little guy (5' 8" 155lbs.), it has become natural for me to use a couple of quick, natural responses to survive.

First off, let me say that the "gang" theory is not a concern to me...for this reason...as I said, I am not large and if I allow myself to be concerned about the "other guys" I will get clobbered by the guy already on my ass. So, the point is, I DO use groin strikes. A kick to the nuts, or more likely for me, a grab or punch to the groin is a natural technique for me to attempt. I will warn you from personal experience, if you are fighting a guy (young punk) with baggy jeans, it is VERY hard to penetrate all of that cloth to actually make impact with the genitals. Especially some of these guys who wear their baggy jeans down around their butts. You might be able to penetrate with a kick (it would need to be a good solid one) but you probably won't be able to execute a grab or punch. I tried it in a fight and I wasn't able to impact the genitals at all. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Anyway, what I was originally going to bring up is this...
As it has been stated, when a guy grabs you on the collar for a punch (the good old "hockey grab & punch"), it is difficult to try alot of the common "defenses against a grab" type of techniques. One thing that I HAVE used, which DOES work, is to jab your thumb as hard as you can into the armpit of your enemy's grabbing arm. Provided he's not wearing some seriously thick clothing (like a Carhart coat),which prevents your thumb from penetrating, this WILL work. At least it has worked in my experience. That might not be the end of the fight...but it could break the grip! If it doesn't, then his retraction will pull you toward him but it will also upset his balance (as he is no longer in control of all that since he is quickly reacting to a nerve strike). This might open opportunities for you to use some other techniques. What this thumb strike can do for YOU will be dependent on your own speed and techniques. The thumb strike only opens up opporunities so you aren't standing there taking repeated punches to the face and losing your composure because you can't figure out a way out of it.
My suggestion is to hit with the thumb strike AS SOON AS he reaches to grab you...BEFORE he has a chance to bring his elbow back in, thus, protecting his armpit again.

I'm not a superhero, but this has worked for me in the past. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"There is only ONE karate"

09-29-2000, 09:35 PM
About fighting people on drugs...
PCP, even cops can barely handle them. Coke or speed, if you break thier nose it's quite possible they can bleed to death.

About heavily muscular opponents...
No matter how much muscle they have, there is nothing protecting thier shins, knees, groin, spine, throat, nose, etc.